[Pathfinder] Blackfire Adepts

[Twilight_Crow]

So I'm curious if anyone has tried this PrC out. I thought it looked fun with a lot of flavor, but...well, I can't figure out a base class I want for it. I feel like I'm basically down to wizard unless I want to play an evil cleric (and I'm rarely a fan of religious evil) if I want to take advantage of all the class features.

Thus far, my analysis is:

Wizard: Conjurer most likely for extra summoning goodness

Sorcerer: Eh...maybe. Bloodlines might be useful...

Cleric: Evil seems to be the way to rock, and if this is the best, Asmodeous is probably the most likely. At least he isn't a complete jerk.

Oracle: Not advancing the Curse, not getting revelations, not getting spells...yeah, not a huge fan.

Witch: No way to get planar binding outside of Dimensional Occultist, no planar ally. Summons are there, though. Still, lack of any real tie in features makes this sub-par.

Summoner: No eidilon advancement, no Summon Monster _ advancement...just seems like it would be crippling to me.

Any other thoughts or input? As much as I like the flavor of Blackfire adept, I wonder if I might not just be better playing a summoner with a penchant for conjuring fiends.

[Sayt]

I haven't actually played one, but I too am quite interested in it.

I'd suggest Sorcerer over wizard, if only because the BFA's DCs run of charisma, and eventually you're going to be making deals with outsiders, for which one will want charisma. Another advantage of sorcerer over wizard is that if need be you have more spell slots available to sacrifice for Blackfire Eruptions, similarly, as you're presumably focusing on Summoning, you get more summons per day, you get more casts of your summon buffs, etc in exchange for some utility.

[avr]

The important ability is a bonus to planar binding spells and their checks. Therefore, a blackfire adept is a sorcerer (CHA based, not empyreal or sage) who keeps a stable of demons or other evil outsiders on hand.

The advantage with planar binding over summoning is that you can spend the actions to summon well in advance of any use. You can use the same tactic with a non-prestiged sorcerer or summoner of course, just without the bonuses so you wouldn't get to planar bind succubi (for example) until a level or two later. A wizard could manage it at the same level though they would usually have a lower charisma.

Either way this isn't going to be an issue until late in the game; what level are you likely to start at?

[Twilight_Crow]

The important ability is a bonus to planar binding spells and their checks. Therefore, a blackfire adept is a sorcerer (CHA based, not empyreal or sage) who keeps a stable of demons or other evil outsiders on hand.

The advantage with planar binding over summoning is that you can spend the actions to summon well in advance of any use. You can use the same tactic with a non-prestiged sorcerer or summoner of course, just without the bonuses so you wouldn't get to planar bind succubi (for example) until a level or two later. A wizard could manage it at the same level though they would usually have a lower charisma.

Either way this isn't going to be an issue until late in the game; what level are you likely to start at?

We're starting at one, but the GM is going to be running Rise of the Runelords since he purchased the entire thing recently which, from my understanding, runs from 1-14.

[avr]

Then for about 3/4 of the game it won't really help (sorcerer caster level 10 to cast 5th level spells, at least one caster level lost to the PrC so character level 11+, or wizard 9/char level 10). A sorcerer or wizard with an interest in summoning is hardly useless of course but the PrC won't much help until then.

Unless you go with cleric. Clerics get lesser planar ally a spell level earlier than sorcs/wizards so you could get your succubus at 8th level. The downside is that they have to pay actual money to their planar allies which cuts down on the potential for binding armies of demons severely.

[Twilight_Crow]

Then for about 3/4 of the game it won't really help (sorcerer caster level 10 to cast 5th level spells, at least one caster level lost to the PrC so character level 11+, or wizard 9/char level 10). A sorcerer or wizard with an interest in summoning is hardly useless of course but the PrC won't much help until then.

Unless you go with cleric. Clerics get lesser planar ally a spell level earlier than sorcs/wizards so you could get your succubus at 8th level. The downside is that they have to pay actual money to their planar allies which cuts down on the potential for binding armies of demons severely.

Plus I don't overly trust my Gm to necessarily send me a creature with higher HD just because I have a class feature.

Yeah. I'm a bit stuck with this PrC. I like it. I like it a lot. But I can't see it being something I use as anything outside of an NPC. Or maybe a high level campaign.

[grarrrg]

unless I want to play an evil cleric (and I'm rarely a fan of religious evil) if I want to take advantage of all the class features.

The PrC only requires "non-good" alignment.
And there is nothing saying you can't worship a Good Deity (the deity may frown VERY HARD on some of what you are doing, but...).

Also, for games that get close/to level 20, I'd shy away from Sorcerers (and Oracles), if only because the PrC only grants 7/10 casting.

[Twilight_Crow]

The PrC only requires "non-good" alignment.
And there is nothing saying you can't worship a Good Deity (the deity may frown VERY HARD on some of what you are doing, but...).

Also, for games that get close/to level 20, I'd shy away from Sorcerers (and Oracles), if only because the PrC only grants 7/10 casting.

True, and I suppose playing a neutral caster of an evil deity is also an option. Mostly, I'm looking at the likelihood of a good deity helping out someone constantly summoning demons. I mean, on the one hand, sure it's handy to have, but I doubt any of the planar allies are likely to come up demon. Unless your deity is...lenient.

[Twilight_Crow]

Ok, so I'm working on a level 1 build for my character. I'm planning on rolling sorcerer, but then I came across a new issue.

Race. Humans are almost always my fallback (level 1 augment summoning, not half bad) or maybe half-elf (that +1 to spell trigger and completion items from arcane heritage would be nifty, or alternatively using blackfire adept as a favored class for endless favored fun). Restriction GM placed is core races only (which rules out...a lot, which makes me sad) and I think these are the two that I'm looking at for the best 'sorcerer conjuror' type.

Also, bloodline. Celestial, abyssal, and (of course) arcane are all my favored options. Celestial and abyssal give some cool DR for summoned creatures, and arcane is...well, arcane. Abyssal is probably good for flavor, though I think the irony of a celestial bloodline would be highly amusing.

Thoughts?