Zman's Wizard Fix(3.5)

[Zman]

This is part of a larger project aimed at bringing all of the base classes into balance, ie Tiers 2-4. This may not be possible, but I'm looking at knocking the Wizard town to a Tier 1.5.

The Wizard is a Tier 1 Class, no doubt about it. The goals is to scale the Wizard's power and ability to apply that power down a notch to a Tier 1.5 range.

Summary of ChangesThe Raw power of a Wizard will be reduced as their spellcasting progression slows and they lose access to 9th level spells. Some minor class abilities have been added. This is also meant to be coupled with my Minor Magc fix which makes gaining new spells more costly, as well as dealing NonLethal Damage or Vitality Damage to cast spells. The Minor Magic Fix also fixes the worst spell offenders and tweaks others.


Wizard
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3||4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Rote Spell|4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4||4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Bonus Feat, Quick Transcriber|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Rote Spell|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—

7th|+3|+2|+2|+5||4|4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—

8th|+4|+2|+2|+6||4|4|4|3|1|—|—|—|—

9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Rote Spell|4|4|4|3|2|—|—|—|—

10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Bonus Feat|4|4|4|3|2|—|—|—|—

11th|+5|+3|+3|+7||4|4|4|4|3|1|—|—|—

12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Rote Spell, Improved Rote Spell|4|4|4|4|3|2|—|—|—

13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8||4|4|4|4|3|2|—|—|—

14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9||4|4|4|4|4|3|1|—|—

15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|Bonus Feat, Rote Spell|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|—|—

16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10||4|4|4|4|4|3|2|—|—

17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10||4|4|4|4|4|4|3|1|—

18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Rote Spell, Perfect Reiteration|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|—

19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|—

20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Bonus Feat|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|1

[/table]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d4

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (Int), Listen(Wis), Profession (Wis),Spellcraft (Int) and Spot(Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a wizard’s movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.

Bonus Languages: A wizard may substitute Draconic for one of the bonus languages available to the character because of her race.

Familiar: A wizard can obtain a familiar in exactly the same manner as a sorcerer can. See the sorcerer description and the information on Familiars below for details.

Scribe Scroll: At 1st level, a wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Bonus Feats: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a wizard gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery. The wizard must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The wizard is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or Spell Mastery when choosing these feats.

Spellbooks: A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains one new spell of any spell level that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.

SCHOOL SPECIALIZATION

A school is one of eight groupings of spells, each defined by a common theme. If desired, a wizard may specialize in one school of magic (see below). Specialization allows a wizard to cast extra spells from her chosen school, but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools.

A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day. She also gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to learn the spells of her chosen school.

The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools. A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement. Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

The eight schools of arcane magic are abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation. Spells that do not fall into any of these schools are called universal spells.

As a Wizard grows in power they are forced to focus their study. Upon Gaining 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells the Wizard must select a prohibited school for that level of spells and above. These prohibited schools are in addition to any prohibited schools for Specialization. A Generalist Mage capable of casting 8th level spells will have four prohibited schools and will only be able to cast from four schools. A specialist will have six prohibited schools and will only be able to cast spells from two schools of magic.

Abjuration: Spells that protect, block, or banish. An abjuration specialist is called an abjurer.
Conjuration: Spells that bring creatures or materials to the caster. A conjuration specialist is called a conjurer.
Divination: Spells that reveal information. A divination specialist is called a diviner. Unlike the other specialists, a diviner must give up only one other school.
Enchantment: Spells that imbue the recipient with some property or grant the caster power over another being. An enchantment specialist is called an enchanter.
Evocation: Spells that manipulate energy or create something from nothing. An evocation specialist is called an evoker.
Illusion: Spells that alter perception or create false images. An illusion specialist is called an illusionist.
Necromancy: Spells that manipulate, create, or destroy life or life force. A necromancy specialist is called a necromancer.
Transmutation: Spells that transform the recipient physically or change its properties in a more subtle way. A transmutation specialist is called a transmuter.
Universal: Not a school, but a category for spells that all wizards can learn. A wizard cannot select universal as a specialty school or as a prohibited school. Only a limited number of spells fall into this category.

Rote Spell

At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter the Wizard gains a Rote spell from meticulous repetition. The Wizard chooses a Spell he or she knows. A Rote Spell can be cast spontaneously without preparation by expending three equal level spell slots. A Wizard can also prepare a Rote spell without a Spellbook.

Quick Transcriber

At 5th level a Wizard becomes more adept at transcribing spells into his or her Spellbook and can copy a spell in one hour per spell level instead of one day per spell. The normal cost of transcribing a spell remains unchanged.

Improved Rote Spell

At 12th level the Wizard gains the ability to sacrifice a spell of a higher level to cast a Rote Spell.


Perfect Reiteration

At 18th level a Wizard cast a Rote spell by sacrificing only one equal level spell instead of the three normally required.

FAMILIARS

A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.

A familiar also grants special abilities to its master (a sorcerer or wizard), as given on the table below. These special abilities apply only when the master and familiar are within 1 mile of each other.

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level.

{table]Familiar|Special

Bat|Master gains a +3 bonus on Listen checks

Cat|Master gains a +3 bonus on Move Silently checks

Hawk|Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in bright light

Lizard|Master gains a +3 bonus on Climb checks

Owl|Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadows

Rat|Master gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves

Raven1|Master gains a +3 bonus on Appraise checks

Snake2|Master gains a +3 bonus on Bluff checks

Toad|Master gains +3 hit points

Weasel|Master gains a +2 bonus on Reflex saves

[/table] 1 A raven familiar can speak one language of its master’s choice as a supernatural ability.
2 Tiny viper.

Familiar Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar’s kind, but make the following changes:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Hit Points: The familiar has one-half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.

Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind.

Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar’s base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master’s (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master’s combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities given on the table are cumulative.

Natural Armor Adj.: The number noted here is an improvement to the familiar’s existing natural armor bonus.

Int: The familiar’s Intelligence score.

Alertness (Ex): While a familiar is within arm’s reach, the master gains the Alertness feat.

Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a familiar takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage even if the saving throw fails.

Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).

Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The master cannot see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content can be communicated.

Because of this empathic link, the master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does.

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

Speak with Master (Ex): If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help.

Speak with Animals of Its Kind (Ex): If the master is 7th level or higher, a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself (including dire varieties): bats with bats, rats with rodents, cats with felines, hawks and owls and ravens with birds, lizards and snakes with reptiles, toads with amphibians, weasels with similar creatures (weasels, minks, polecats, ermines, skunks, wolverines, and badgers). Such communication is limited by the intelligence of the conversing creatures.

Spell Resistance (Ex): If the master is 11th level or higher, a familiar gains spell resistance equal to the master’s level + 5. To affect the familiar with a spell, another spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the familiar’s spell resistance.

Scry on Familiar (Sp): If the master is 13th level or higher, he may scry on his familiar (as if casting the scrying spell) once per day.

{table]Class Level|Natural AC|Int|Special

1st–2nd|+1|6|Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link

3rd–4th|+2|7|Deliver touch spells

5th–6th|+3|8|Speak with master

7th–8th|+4|9|Speak with animals of its kind

9th–10th|+5|10|—

11th–12th|+6|11|Spell resistance

13th–14th|+7|12|Scry on familiar

15th–16th|+8|13|—

17th–18th|+9|14|—

19th–20th|+10|15|—

[/table]
ARCANE SPELLS AND ARMOR

Wizards and sorcerers do not know how to wear armor effectively. If desired, they can wear armor anyway (though they’ll be clumsy in it), or they can gain training in the proper use of armor (with the various Armor Proficiency feats—light, medium, and heavy—and the Shield Proficiency feat), or they can multiclass to add a class that grants them armor proficiency. Even if a wizard or sorcerer is wearing armor with which he or she is proficient, however, it might still interfere with spellcasting.

Armor restricts the complicated gestures that a wizards or sorcerer must make while casting any spell that has a somatic component (most do). The armor and shield descriptions list the arcane spell failure chance for different armors and shields.

By contrast, bards not only know how to wear light armor effectively, but they can also ignore the arcane spell failure chance for such armor. A bard wearing armor heavier than light or using any type of shield incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance, even if he becomes proficient with that armor.

If a spell doesn’t have a somatic component, an arcane spellcaster can cast it with no problem while wearing armor. Such spells can also be cast even if the caster’s hands are bound or if he or she is grappling (although Concentration checks still apply normally). Also, the metamagic feat Still Spell allows a spellcaster to prepare or cast a spell at one spell level higher than normal without the somatic component. This also provides a way to cast a spell while wearing armor without risking arcane spell failure.

ACFs

Combat Wizard

Level: 1st
Lose: D4 Hit Dice, Poor BAB. Rote Spell at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level. Improved Rote Spell. Perfect Recitation. Must Specialize in Evocation.
Gain: D6 Hit Dice, Medium BAB, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Proficiency with One Handed Martial Weapons. Light Armor Proficiency, Armored Mage(Light), May choose Fighter Bonus Feats in place of Wizard Bonus Feats.
Evocative Spirit: +1 point of damage per die for damage dealing spells.
Spellbook Dependency: Combat Mages have difficulty casting spells not of the Evocation School. To Cast from any other school the Combat Wizard must have their Spellbook in their possession and one hand free. Casting non Evocation spells requires a full round action unless the casting time was normally longer as the Combat Wizard rifles through the pages and casts from their Spellbook. Eidetic Spellcasters do not require one hand free or a spellbook, but they still require a full round to cast non evocation spells.

Eidetic Spellcaster

Level: 1st
Lose: Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll
Gain: No need to scribe spells into a Spellbook, all normal costs must still be paid. Wizard simply meditates to prepare known spells. Maximum number of spells per spell level equal to 10 + Int Mod - 2x Spell Level. For example, a fifth level Wizard with an 18 Intelligence can know 8 3rd level spells, 10 2nd level spells and 12 1st level spells. A Wizard with 20 Int could know 9 3rd level spells and only 3 6th level spells. An Eidetic Spellcaster can always learn at least one spell of a Given Spell Level. Once learned a Wizard cannot unlearn a spell.

Most ACFs will still be applicable with a few exceptions, ask DM for permission. See below for details.

Any ACF that bypasses the limitations and costs for gaining spells is prohibited.

Abrupt Jaunt: This ACF takes up a free aciton and must take place on the casters turn or be readied like other actions delaying their initiative. It is no longer an I Win button.

[Zman]

Changelog:
12-26-12
ACF: Abrupt Jaunt now Free Action
Added Listen and Spot as class skills

12-27-12
Cleaned up Table

12-28-12
Added Rote Spell, Quick Transcriber, Improved Rote Spell, and Perfect Reiteration as class abilities.

1-25-13
HD back to D4 to work with other Fixes.

1-28-13
Added Prohibited schools for 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells.

2-9-13
Added Eidetic Spellcaster ACF.
Added Combat Wizard ACF.

[Morph Bark]

What does the X on the table mean? It's not -, so the wizard doesn't not get spells at those levels of those spell levels, but it's not a real number either, and I don't see it explained anywhere what it really means.

At any rate, this merely slows the wizard down a little, but doesn't prevent it from being Tier 1, as its upper-Tier tricks are gained at nearly every spell level, spread out across them, and it's still as versatile as ever, because the preparation hasn't changed.

[Temotei]

What does the X on the table mean? It's not -, so the wizard doesn't not get spells at those levels of those spell levels, but it's not a real number either, and I don't see it explained anywhere what it really means.

I believe it means that the wizard simply doesn't gain any spells at that level, even though she normally would.

[Eldan]

I'll say it again: the problem with the wizard is not their class features, or the rate at which they gan spells. The second is fine, the first is anemic and lacking, really.

The problem are the spells. As long as a level 20 wizard has even one casting of shapechange or gate, he'll leave any fighter behind. Now, yours doesn't get 9th level spells, and that helps a bit. But he still has Greater Shadow Conjuration, Polymorph, Greater Planar Ally, Major Creation, Fabricate and any number of other, open-ended spells.

[Zman]

What does the X on the table mean? It's not -, so the wizard doesn't not get spells at those levels of those spell levels, but it's not a real number either, and I don't see it explained anywhere what it really means.

At any rate, this merely slows the wizard down a little, but doesn't prevent it from being Tier 1, as its upper-Tier tricks are gained at nearly every spell level, spread out across them, and it's still as versatile as ever, because the preparation hasn't changed.

"x" denotes spells and spell levels that the Wizard can no longer cast. I understand it is is not a the best solution and that the Wizard gains access to powerful spells at every level, but slowing the progression down should help at least the feel on the table.

Rewriting spells is a much larger task, but weakening the Wizard somewhat helps reduce the number of Tricks that we will see or at least delays them.

The flaw is in the system it self, its the nature of spells, and the exponential power growth Wizards are capable of. Will this fix stop a wizard from being the most powerful class? No. But, when all full casters have a similar reduction to power it should at least help how things feel on the table.

The class may still be Tier 1, but by losing 9th level spells and having their power delayed they are at least lower in that Tier than base Wizard, and that is enough for me at this time.


I believe it means that the wizard simply doesn't gain any spells at that level, even though she normally would.

Correct.


I'll say it again: the problem with the wizard is not their class features, or the rate at which they gain spells. The second is fine, the first is anemic and lacking, really.

The problem are the spells. As long as a level 20 wizard has even one casting of shapechange or gate, he'll leave any fighter behind. Now, yours doesn't get 9th level spells, and that helps a bit. But he still has Greater Shadow Conjuration, Polymorph, Greater Planar Ally, Major Creation, Fabricate and any number of other, open-ended spells.

Changing the spell system to be balanced an fair is beyond the scope of my little project. I simply want to knock the Wizard down a notch or two.

I disagree, the rate at which a Wizard gains spells is extremely fast and marks a huge increase in power at mid levels. Now, the rate is not the true determinant of a Wizard's power but there is no doubt that a 15th level Wizard who has access to 8th level spells and a 15th level Wizard that has only 6th levels spells is significant. There is a reason when Wizards are being played that people avoid losing a level of spell advancement like the plague, because it hurts the power of their build.

This is the equivalent of losing 5 levels of wizard and will at least delay their power accumulation somewhat. As to the spells listed its the DMs job to stop them from becoming problematic.

[Jane_Smith]

Lemme spell it out for you this way. Wizards are not overpowered as a class. The "SPELLS" are. Color spray, sleep, iron wall, fabricate, gate, wish, touch of death, dominate person/monster, mass hold, animate dead, etc. If anything, the wizard needs a buff to be more player friendly and have more exciting gameplay with better utility/at will options, as seen by reserve feats in 3.5, at-wills in 4.0, and 3+X/day specialization powers, so on. Or even mana/mana regeneration as some systems have tried to pull with varying degrees of success so they can be a bit more spontaneous.

Nerfing spells per day, or even limiting 9th level spells and removing them COMPLETELY from the game will not lower the potency of a wizard. In fact, how many games actually reach it to beyond level 15 unless they actually start near/at that level or beyond? Seriously, the higher level spells are nothing, you have not done anything but trim from a solid class that has done nothing wrong - if your gonna "tone down" wizards, sorcs, clerics, druids, etc to teir 2-3? You need to hit the spells, not the class features. Trust me, nothing else will matter in any form or way.

[Zman]

Lemme spell it out for you this way. Wizards are not overpowered as a class. The "SPELLS" are. Color spray, sleep, iron wall, fabricate, gate, wish, touch of death, dominate person/monster, mass hold, animate dead, etc. If anything, the wizard needs a buff to be more player friendly and have more exciting gameplay with better utility/at will options, as seen by reserve feats in 3.5, at-wills in 4.0, and 3+X/day specialization powers, so on. Or even mana/mana regeneration as some systems have tried to pull with varying degrees of success so they can be a bit more spontaneous.

Nerfing spells per day, or even limiting 9th level spells and removing them COMPLETELY from the game will not lower the potency of a wizard. In fact, how many games actually reach it to beyond level 15 unless they actually start near/at that level or beyond? Seriously, the higher level spells are nothing, you have not done anything but trim from a solid class that has done nothing wrong - if your gonna "tone down" wizards, sorcs, clerics, druids, etc to teir 2-3? You need to hit the spells, not the class features. Trust me, nothing else will matter in any form or way.

I'm aware that it is the spells that are truly the problem. But, I do feel that the progression of spells is too fast and does not need to be to be an effective class. This fix is only part of a much larger overhaul. I will be working on some fixes to spells as well but that gets ugly and complicated. This fix is merely meant to be a stop gap measure the reduce the power of a Wizard, especially at the mid levels. By slowing spellcasting progression this will be accomplished. Will it balance the game? Absolutetly not. Will it reduce the total power of a Wizard at a given level? Yes. That is a start.


For clarification. I am not under the assumption that this fix will suddenly cure all of the problems posed by Wizards and other casters, but it will serve as a stopgap measure. And whether you feel that it is an effective fix or not, it does limit the total power a Wizard can accumulate and how fast they acquire that power, both of which were goals of the fix and will have noticable carryover to the table. The fact that many spells are simply broken, can't be addressed on the class level and is part of a much larger issue.

[LordErebus12]

You forget a simple rule of low magic worlds, magic is hard to use. it fatigues and exhausts you. it uses up your life force, your very essence is torn and altered as you grow with magical might.

leave its spells alone from core wizard, reduce the spells per day all by one for standard games or by two if its a lower magic world, to a minimum of zero (but a high int can still grant them).

penalize them similarly like Raistlin Mejere was. Magic requires greater effort with warping the world through simply reaching out and altering the world by weaving it without innate magical gifts like sorcerers, or from the divine. Each spell causes fatigue and temporary hp drain for a number of rounds equal to the spell level being cast; all which stack, both its total duration and the hp loss (possibly making it so it exhausts you).

Magic becomes precious and more costly to cast, by making you more vulnerable to other dangers and an expensive commodity.

[roguemetal]

leave its spells alone from core wizard, reduce the spells per day all by one for standard games or by two if its a lower magic world, to a minimum of zero (but a high int can still grant them).

So why not just remove the extra spells granted by high Int? Or keep it, but make the extra spells based on Con or Cha, forcing them to be multi-attribute dependent?

[LordErebus12]

So why not just remove the extra spells granted by high Int? Or keep it, but make the extra spells based on Con or Cha, forcing them to be multi-attribute dependent?

I try not to alter something that drastically, but i agree with Constitution, partially.

[Gnorman]

Wizards should not get added incentive to invest in Constitution. As it is, it's their secondary stat.

Wizards should have their versatility reduced. Force them to super-specialize. Conjurers/Transmuters get only the one school. All other specializations may choose one other school (except for Conjuration or Transmutation). All others are banned.

[Zman]

Wizards should not get added incentive to invest in Constitution. As it is, it's their secondary stat.

Wizards should have their versatility reduced. Force them to super-specialize. Conjurers/Transmuters get only the one school. All other specializations may choose one other school (except for Conjuration or Transmutation). All others are banned.

I don't know of making Wizards MAD solves too much. I feel the versatility of Wizards is good and needs to stay, but it's power and abuse which are the problem. Ideally all spells would be rewritten to reduce abuse, but for now I'm focusing on reducing and delaying power. Eventually I'll have a couple of fixes for certain spells or spell lines ie Polymorph and Celerity, etc.

[Doxkid]

If memory serves, someone worked out an amazing trick for nerfing wizards; Ban spells from the core books. I haven't tested this in play but it sounds about right.

[Zman]

If memory serves, someone worked out an amazing trick for nerfing wizards; Ban spells from the core books. I haven't tested this in play but it sounds about right.

Lol, there are many spells from Core which are just poorly written, and there are just as man from the other source books. Probably a tad extreme.

It boils down to a poor and distinctly different power curve as characters level. Fighters are linear, Casters are Quadratic. They only play nice the first half dozen levels or so. Even then, there are issues and basic spells which are scary.

This is definitely a WIP and a very large project. Im a firm believer the answer isn't simply give others classes lots more power and crazy abilities..

[phy]

What would be the ramifications if instead of rewriting or banning problematic spells, a wizard was limited in how many times they could cast them? For instance, instead of casting Polymorph Other every day, a wizard could only cast it once per level? Maybe even for the most abusable spells, limit how many times a spellcaster could use it in his lifetime? It would definitely make casting that 'special' spell much more 'special'.

[Zman]

What would be the ramifications if instead of rewriting or banning problematic spells, a wizard was limited in how many times they could cast them? For instance, instead of casting Polymorph Other every day, a wizard could only cast it once per level? Maybe even for the most abusable spells, limit how many times a spellcaster could use it in his lifetime? It would definitely make casting that 'special' spell much more 'special'.

Or adding some kind of negative effect like 2nd edition had. Ie Haste, aged the recipient by one year every time it was cast on them.

I'm not to the point of rewriting any spells yet, and Id like to make that as simple as possible. Though I'll gladly take ay ideas for later use.

[Eldan]

If memory serves, someone worked out an amazing trick for nerfing wizards; Ban spells from the core books. I haven't tested this in play but it sounds about right.

Not bad, but leaves a few gaps. You'd be out of most healing spells, for one. And many conditions (petrification, anyone?) would be death-sentences without countermeasures.

[Mystic Muse]

Not bad, but leaves a few gaps. You'd be out of most healing spells, for one. And many conditions (petrification, anyone?) would be death-sentences without countermeasures.

Plus a few iconic spells, such as haste, the Animal's attribute line, some nice cantrips that aren't bad, and fireball.

[Arcanist]

Remove the 9th level Spell slot entirely because it isn't serving a purpose being their and is just a constant reminder of what has been lost... :smallfrown: :smalltongue:

[Zman]

Remove the 9th level Spell slot entirely because it isn't serving a purpose being their and is just a constant reminder of what has been lost... :smallfrown: :smalltongue:

Fair enough. Though, I plan on making 9th level spells available at Epic levels, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

[Eldan]

You know, if you slow down the spells, you should really give the wizard some fun class features to go along with them. He should have had them in the first place anyway.

[Zman]

You know, if you slow down the spells, you should really give the wizard some fun class features to go along with them. He should have had them in the first place anyway.

I agree, though I'm not quite sure what. Granted the Wizard still has more options than any other class and will still be Tier 1, but some class features are a must.

Thinking...

Rote Spelll: Spell can be prepared without a spell book. Wizard can sacrifice two(or three) prepared slots to spontaneously cast a Rote Spell. One Rote Spell per 3 class levels. If a Wizard is a Specialist the Wizard must choose 1/2 their Rote spells, rounded up, from their Specialist school

Quick Transcriber: Wizard can Copy a spell into their Spellbook in one hour per spell level, not a day per spell. Gained at 6th level.

Versatile Preparation: Wizard may prepare two lower level slots in place of a higher level slot. Gained at 10th level.

Improved Rote Spell: Wizard may sacrific a higher level spell to cast a Rote spell of a lower level. Gained at 14th level.

Perfect Reiteration: Wizard no longer has to substitute multiple spells to cast a Rote spell, may be cast with an equal substitution. Gained at 18th level.

Nothing earth shattering, but a D6 Hit Dice and Rote Spells may be enough to temp a Wizard to stay in class rather than automatically PrCing, at least make the Wizard mull it over... And then PrC.

[toapat]

Nothing earth shattering, but a D6 Hit Dice and Rote Spells may be enough to temp a Wizard to stay in class rather than automatically PrCing, at least make the Wizard mull it over... And then PrC.

the problem with getting a wizard to stay in class is the fact that you have access to PrCs that outright crush any reason for staying in class.

as far as i can tell, there is no motivation in this wizard not to get into Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer (a total loss of 1 Wizard level). the only 8th level spells ive heard talked about constantly are Clone (for immortality), Greater Celerity, Mind Blank, and Gangnam Style, and that last one is only speecifically to ban the use of the music video during casting,

[Zman]

the problem with getting a wizard to stay in class is the fact that you have access to PrCs that outright crush any reason for staying in class.

as far as i can tell, there is no motivation in this wizard not to get into Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer (a total loss of 1 Wizard level). the only 8th level spells ive heard talked about constantly are Clone (for immortality), Greater Celerity, Mind Blank, and Gangnam Style, and that last one is only speecifically to ban the use of the music video during casting,

Lol...Gagnam style.

Interesting Choice of PrC examples, I would have used others I assume you mean Spell Levels as well.

Why not to lose access to Eight Level Spells. Metamagic and some useful and powerful spells, ie Trap the Soul, Greater Shadow Evocation, Polymorph Any Object, plus a few more good ones.

Arcane Trickster: Have to take 3 levels of Rogue, delays casting progressing further by roughly a Spell level, lose 3 CL, and costs 8th levels spells. I don't see how this is an automatic choice at all. I see it as being more of an option vs the standard wizard, which is a good thing IMO.

Unseen Seer: Lose one Caster leve for skill prereqsl, 4 total non Divination by late game, lose 8th level spells, lower Hd. I don't see this as a No brainier.


Most players won't even think about a PrC that isn't a full casting progression because they don't want to delay spell acquisition or gaining upper level spells. Also, there are some very powerful full caster PrCs that Im surprised you didnt mention. If this version of Wizard is incentivizing people to take PrCs like Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer, then great, it's doing what it is aimed at doing.

[toapat]

Lol...Gagnam style.

Interesting Choice of PrC examples, I would have used others I assume you mean Spell Levels as well.

Why not to lose access to Eight Level Spells. Metamagic and some useful and powerful spells, ie Trap the Soul, Greater Shadow Evocation, Polymorph Any Object, plus a few more good ones.

Arcane Trickster: Have to take 3 levels of Rogue, delays casting progressing further by roughly a Spell level, lose 3 CL, and costs 8th levels spells. I don't see how this is an automatic choice at all. I see it as being more of an option vs the standard wizard, which is a good thing IMO.

Unseen Seer: Lose one Caster leve for skill prereqsl, 4 total non Divination by late game, lose 8th level spells, lower Hd. I don't see this as a No brainier.


Most players won't even think about a PrC that isn't a full casting progression because they don't want to delay spell acquisition or gaining upper level spells. Also, there are some very powerful full caster PrCs that Im surprised you didnt mention. If this version of Wizard is incentivizing people to take PrCs like Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer, then great, it's doing what it is aimed at doing.

Unseen Seer is used to qualify for Arcane Trickster, because despite being the weaker of the 2, it only will lose you 1 caster level. so, you named the biggest loss of the entire spell group, which is PaO. 8th level spells do not have as many gems as 9th and 7th.

So i cant invalidate the party Sorcerer. big deal. What do i get out of it? alot of power on my offense and some free divinations.

[Zman]

Unseen Seer is used to qualify for Arcane Trickster, because despite being the weaker of the 2, it only will lose you 1 caster level. so, you named the biggest loss of the entire spell group, which is PaO. 8th level spells do not have as many gems as 9th and 7th.

So i cant invalidate the party Sorcerer. big deal. What do i get out of it? alot of power on my offense and some free divinations.

Ahh, I misunderstood. But, you actually lose a spell level, the same build with the normal Wizard nets you no effective loss to casting besides caster level. It makes it more costly to take that PrC progression with this Wizard than the normal one. I believe that is a step in the right direction as the same build with my Wizard fix loses power when compared to the standard Wizard. Now we have an Arcane Trickster Unseen Seer with only 7th level spells instead of one with 9th. And you have to give up more than the Standard Wizard to do it, ie Hit Dice, Rote Spells, even if they aren't that powerful, you still miss out on them.

I agree, 8th isn't nearly as juicy of a spell level.

[Deepbluediver]

If your goal is to slow down the progression at which a wizard gets access to the more powerful and versatile spells, why don't you limit what schools they have access to more strictly?

For example, rather than having the choice of all the different types of power in the universe available at level 1 (or just most if you specialize), a level 1 wizard should only be able to prepare spells from a single school. Then every couple of levels you can have a class feature that lets him master another school.

This way the wizard gains access to more class features slowly, like many other classes do, and not every wizard is the god-emperor of magic at all levels.
In my wizard fix I gave new schools at levels 1, 2, 5, and 10, so that every wizard was capped at a max of half the possible options. You can, of course, give them as many or as few as you like. If you want to read my full fix, the link is in my sig.

[Zman]

If your goal is to slow down the progression at which a wizard gets access to the more powerful and versatile spells, why don't you limit what schools they have access to more strictly?

For example, rather than having the choice of all the different types of power in the universe available at level 1 (or just most if you specialize), a level 1 wizard should only be able to prepare spells from a single school. Then every couple of levels you can have a class feature that lets him master another school.

This way the wizard gains access to more class features slowly, like many other classes do, and not every wizard is the god-emperor of magic at all levels.
In my wizard fix I gave new schools at levels 1, 2, 5, and 10, so that every wizard was capped at a max of half the possible options. You can, of course, give them as many or as few as you like. If you want to read my full fix, the link is in my sig.

Interesting, but I don't want to limit versatility so much as slow down the Wizard from blowing everyone else away. This is a start, and a couple of fixes to the most problematic spells will also help, but that's for a later fix.

[Deepbluediver]

Interesting, but I don't want to limit versatility so much as slow down the Wizard from blowing everyone else away. This is a start, and a couple of fixes to the most problematic spells will also help, but that's for a later fix.

When you're looking at the tier list though, it is (in theory anyway) evaluated across all levels, not just at the maximum. The wizard has many ways that he can reliably beat a fighter (and other non tier 1 or 2 classes) at level 1, and the problem only gets worse as both players power up.
At all levels, and in all schools, there are spells that either kill outright, don't check for saves or spell resistance, alter the wizard's stats, grant them aditional abilities, make them immune to certain forms of assault, and let them escape from danger.
I recall reading a thread where several posters where discussing a variety of ways in which a low-level wizard could concievably beat the Tarrasque by himself.

The only real difference seperating the tier 1 wizard from the tier 2 sorcerer with the exact same spell list is the fact that the wizard can completely alter his spell selection any day of the week. Versatility plays a BIG role in deciding where a class falls, and not just at the upper levels. Tiers 3 and 4 are both usually good at one thing, but tier 3's can also assist in a variety of situations that aren't their specialty.

By the time your reduced progression kicks in, a wizard will already have plenty of nasty tools in his kit, and just delaying more of then for a level or two doesn't really go far enough. If you can fix the worst of the game-breaking spells seperately, then the wizard will still far and away outclass pretty much most other characters.

If this is good enough for your game, then so be it, but IMO you haven't really accomplished your goal of reducing the class to tier 2.

[Zman]

When you're looking at the tier list though, it is (in theory anyway) evaluated across all levels, not just at the maximum. The wizard has many ways that he can reliably beat a fighter (and other non tier 1 or 2 classes) at level 1, and the problem only gets worse as both players power up.
At all levels, and in all schools, there are spells that either kill outright, don't check for saves or spell resistance, alter the wizard's stats, grant them aditional abilities, make them immune to certain forms of assault, and let them escape from danger.
I recall reading a thread where several posters where discussing a variety of ways in which a low-level wizard could concievably beat the Tarrasque by himself.

The only real difference seperating the tier 1 wizard from the tier 2 sorcerer with the exact same spell list is the fact that the wizard can completely alter his spell selection any day of the week. Versatility plays a BIG role in deciding where a class falls, and not just at the upper levels. Tiers 3 and 4 are both usually good at one thing, but tier 3's can also assist in a variety of situations that aren't their specialty.

By the time your reduced progression kicks in, a wizard will already have plenty of nasty tools in his kit, and just delaying more of then for a level or two doesn't really go far enough. If you can fix the worst of the game-breaking spells seperately, then the wizard will still far and away outclass pretty much most other characters.

If this is good enough for your game, then so bet it, but IMO you haven't really accomplished your goal of reducing the class to tier 2.

In most games the Wizard doesn't totally break the game at low level. Yes,mthey still have access to spells that are very powerful, but it's the earth shattering stuff later which makes the game almost unplayable for the other characters.

I've read your proposed magic fix and find it a convoluted fix that brings a whole new level of complexity to the system. That is something I'm trying to avoid.

I know that I won't be able to feasibly bring the Wizard down to Tier 2 which out completely changing the Magic System, but I may be able to take away the "Tier 0" Power and put some kind of limit on how powerful a Tier 1 can be. That will have to do.

[Deepbluediver]

In most games the Wizard doesn't totally break the game at low level. Yes,mthey still have access to spells that are very powerful, but it's the earth shattering stuff later which makes the game almost unplayable for the other characters.

I know that I won't be able to feasibly bring the Wizard down to Tier 2 which out completely changing the Magic System, but I may be able to take away the "Tier 0" Power and put some kind of limit on how powerful a Tier 1 can be. That will have to do.

The most basic reason that a wizard is tier 1 is not it's power, as I said, but it's versatility. Ergo, the simplest way to "put some kind of limit" on it is to reduce the latter, instead of attacking the former.

Even by level 6 a wizard has access to more options than most classes will see in their entire 20-level run and have spells to make entire skill sets surperfluous. I don't want to debate every single spell, but the first ones that come to mind are invisibility, which outdoes the rogues entire "stealthy" schtik, and fly, which allows the wizard to ignore a whole pile of skill checks and duel with enemies that no one else in the party can touch (or just stay 400 ft out of range and kill everything with fire).

Some of this would make for a powerful character. ALL of it makes for an OVERpowered character. If you're not worried about it with your group, then fine, but that's relying on the players to check themselves, not fixing the class.

Ultimately, I would ask: why do you feel that the wizards needs access to all 8 schools at the same time to be a viable class?


I've read your proposed magic fix and find it a convoluted fix that brings a whole new level of complexity to the system. That is something I'm trying to avoid.

I never mentioned my magic fix, but since you brought it up, I'll respond. I'll do it in the spoiler though, so as to avoid derailing your thread.

The postings I used for my magic fix are pretty long, I admit that, and I believe I stated right up front that it's not "simple", since simple magic fixes never catch every problem. I appreciate you reading any of it.

Part of that is my rather verbose writing style, and part of it is my desire to be exceedingly clear and address as many potential problems as I could up front. In other words, to head off arguments about RAW vs RAI

I can and have, however, summarized it in just a few short paragraphs.
Overall, I'm not sure what you think is convoluted about it. It is based almost exactly on the current system for melee classes. If you are casting a spell at a creature, you make a roll against a target's Spell Resistance (just like you are making an attack roll), and if not you are making a roll against a target then you make what is essentially a spellcrafting skill check.
If you roll low enough, there are penalties for failure, just like in other aspects of the game.

There's lots of minor tweaks, and some more stuff that I added in to help differentiate some of the caster-classes (which can be jetisoned with little or no impact), but at it's core, I think the system is fairly straightforward.

If you have questions about anything in particular that you found confusing, please let me know and I'll work to explain it better in the post.

I feel we're starting to argue in circles, and we may have mutually exclusive design goals. Unless I come up with something new to add, I'll try to refrain from posting any more, though I'll read any reply and you're free to PM me if you want additional feedback.

[Zman]

Deepbluediver, we aren't going to agree on this one completely. You feel versatility and spell selection are overpowered, I feel versatility is good but the level of power the Wizard gets and the rate they get it is the start of the problem and what I started to address. I'll argue all day that Wish > Invisibility for game breaking. I think adherence to the use of a Spellbook and moderated spell availability by the DM can keep the magic bullets in check.

As to your Magic FixYou've added another set of die rolls to magic, plus some opposed rolls to a system which is already pretty complex. You've certainly nerfed magic, and it may even play as you want but it's not for me.

You've also changed casting stats and the entire feel of the system.

It boils down to your fix is simply too big for this project.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's not bad. Rote Spell is a cool idea, and dropping 9th level spells/slowing the progression can only help. That said, as others have pointed out, this fix really isn't touching the core of why wizards are T1: their versatility. Quite frankly, I doubt that it's possible to establish enough limits to drop them a tier and retain prepared casting-- not without sacrificing too much fun, at least.

I do like Deepbluediver's idea of doling out schools slowly. Maybe start with 2 schools and universal or something. Maybe that and a limit to 7th level spells would be enough. Maybe.

[Gnorman]

Deepbluediver, we aren't going to agree on this one completely. You feel versatility and spell selection are overpowered, I feel versatility is good but the level of power the Wizard gets and the rate they get it is the start of the problem and what I started to address. I'll argue all day that Wish > Invisibility for game breaking. I think adherence to the use of a Spellbook and moderated spell availability by the DM can keep the magic bullets in check.

Fixing the upper end of the class is a start, but you're concentrating on the wrong problem. Spells like Wish or Gate are theoretically capable of shattering the campaign, but how often do folks complain about "breaking the game" at level 20? At that point, you're almost expected to be killing gods and demon princes (not that some classes are even capable of that, but I digress). You're dealing with a fraction of the issue, and on a level playing field (where I assume the other casters will adhere to the same rate of access), the wizard will still dominate as Tier 1. The more problematic spells are Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Sleep. Others that allow a wizard to conquer combat encounters with a minimum of effort or contribution from other players. Spells that allow a wizard to obviate non-combat encounters (especially ones that step on the toes of the other members of the party). Contact Other Plane. Invisibility. Charm Person. Fly. Minor Creation. All low level.

At the higher levels of the tier system, it's not about power. It's about versatility. The line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 has absolutely nothing to do with whether you get level 9 spells. It's the fact that the Sorcerer only ever gets three, where as the wizard gets, in theory, all the spells, and can change his loadout on a daily basis to deal with drastically different situations. You shouldn't have to depend on the Oberoni Fallacy to rein in a class.

[Zman]

Fixing the upper end of the class is a start, but you're concentrating on the wrong problem. Spells like Wish or Gate are theoretically capable of shattering the campaign, but how often do folks complain about "breaking the game" at level 20? At that point, you're almost expected to be killing gods and demon princes (not that some classes are even capable of that, but I digress). You're dealing with a fraction of the issue, and on a level playing field (where I assume the other casters will adhere to the same rate of access), the wizard will still dominate as Tier 1. The more problematic spells are Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Sleep. Others that allow a wizard to conquer combat encounters with a minimum of effort or contribution from other players. Spells that allow a wizard to obviate non-combat encounters (especially ones that step on the toes of the other members of the party). Contact Other Plane. Invisibility. Charm Person. Fly. Minor Creation. All low level.

At the higher levels of the tier system, it's not about power. It's about versatility. The line between Tier 1 and Tier 2 has absolutely nothing to do with whether you get level 9 spells. It's the fact that the Sorcerer only ever gets three, where as the wizard gets, in theory, all the spells, and can change his loadout on a daily basis to deal with drastically different situations. You shouldn't have to depend on the Oberoni Fallacy to rein in a class.


I've stated multiple times I will be fixing the most problematic spells. This is just my change to the class itself by reigning in upper level power and slowing down access to power, other changes will be coming which will fix some of the worst spells and balance out some spell access. I've also found that when metamknowlege is controlled and DMs give reasonable spell access that Wizards can play nice with others.

I have no idea what the Oberoni Fallacy is.

I look at it this way, we know that the upper levels spells break the game, and Wizards have access to vast amounts of power quickly, so that is where I started. Leave that level of power for the Epic levels.

[Mystic Muse]

I have no idea what the Oberoni Fallacy is.


Basically, if you're relying on the DM to fix something, that means that it is broken by definition. Mechanics should be created in such a way that they don't require the DM to balance them.