What happened to the Dwarven Defenders???

[karkus]

As I was bemoaning the general weaknesses of the prestige class, I remembered that almost every rule was enhanced in Pathfinder (I have usually just stuck to 3.5e). However, I was shocked to find that it was, for whatever reason, omitted from the rules! The nerve of those too-talls! :smallyuk:

So my question is why they were left out. They had so much potential, if only their Uncanny Dodge and/or Trap Sense abilities were swapped out for something else!

Additionally, this thread can be a place where you help me build a better Dwarven Defender. I was thinking of just replacements such as "Improved Stonecunning" or getting more Con bonuses, but I want to hear any other ideas that you may have.

[Dienekes]

They replaced the Dwarven Defender with the generic raced Stalwart Defender (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/stalwart-defender). It's still not very good.

If you want to fix it, for one, allow the poor bugger to move when using it's signature ability. Seriously, mobility is king if you're melee, and still amazing if you're not.

[Aasimar]

They probably died, ineffectually defending dwarves from something. (progress maybe?)

[karkus]

Here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kqh2?Dwarven-Defender-Conversion) is a good thread that I found a minute ago on updating it if anyone besides me wants it.

[Ravens_cry]

They probably died, ineffectually defending dwarves from something. (progress maybe?)
Evolution.:smallamused:

[Dienekes]

OK, because I'm bored, how I would fix the Dwarven Defender

1) Make Defensive Stance not lost if you move. In fact, no penalty to movement at all.

2) Make Defensive Stance once per encounter at level 1.

3) Give 4+Int skill points per level, and make the skill list: Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Engineering), Knowledge (Geography), Perception, Sense Motive, Swim

4) Every even level give a Stance Ability, they should be good. Some examples:

Retribution Strike: A Dwarven Defender may make an attack of opportunity against any opponent that attacks or casts a spell on him while he is in Defensive Stance

Defenders Strike: A Dwarven Defender may make an attack of opportunity against any opponent that attacks or casts a spell on any ally (other than him) within his reach while he is in Defensive Stance

Dwarven Reflexes: You gain 1+your Wisdom modifier attacks of opportunity per round. This ability is considered the Combat Reflexes feat to qualify for prerequisites to other feats or prestige classes.

Dwarven Mobility: If an ally is damaged or has an enemy spell cast upon them you may make an immediate action to move to an open square adjacent to that ally, so long as your total movement does not exceed your move speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

Interceptor: Prerequisite: Dwarven Mobility. When using the Dwarven Mobility Stance Ability you may choose to intercept the attack or spell taking all damage or negative effects in place of the targeted ally. He cannot use the Parry or Spell-Parry abilities on to prevent this damage or effects.

Parry: If an opponent would attack you or an adjacent ally you may roll an attack of opportunity, if your attack roll surpasses the opponents attack roll that attack is negated.

Spell-Parry: As Parry, except you can also Parry single target spells, your attack roll must surpass DC 10 + 2 x spell level + caster's ability score.

Thicket of Blades= While in Defensive Stance you are considered in the Thicket of Blades Devoted Spirit Stance.

5) Change the feat prerequisites to something less crappy

That should be a decent start I think.

[karkus]

5) Change the feat prerequisites to something less crappy

I know that the feat prereq.s are ridiculous, but that was probably just the only logical way to say "Yeah, they're more resilient than other characters."

I would also like to see Uncanny Dodge replaced by something along the lines of "Hardy Defense" (add Con to AC, not Dex), and then Imp. Uncanny Dodge replaced by a similar ability, such as one that allows you to replace your Con modifier for your Dex in most, if not all, situations (such as Reflex saves).

[JKTrickster]

Wait: I know that the DD's crippling weakness is its inability to move while using its signature class ability (among other things of course and generally just being melee).

Is there any, and I mean any amount of benefits, class features, and other goodies that can make a lack of mobility worth it?

Or is mobility simply that much of an advantage?

[Hirax]

Dwarven/stalwart defender is primarily useful as an NPC class. PCs aren't going to be trying to repel intruders or making defensive formations often enough to make it anywhere close to worthwhile. If you have PCs that are going to be fighting through tunnels or hallways it can be useful to put on NPC cannon fodder soldiers. At least, that's the only decent use I've ever seen.

[JaronK]

If it was changed from "can't move" to "can't charge or take more than a move action to move" it would be a lot better. And then, you know, it would have to have some way of stopping people from just going around. Maybe it makes all enemies treat the area you threaten +5' as difficult ground. And is incredibly awesome too. And then stops fliers. I don't know.

JaronK

[Douglas]

Is there any, and I mean any amount of benefits, class features, and other goodies that can make a lack of mobility worth it?

Or is mobility simply that much of an advantage?
Well, if you really want to go for that much of an absolute, giving them omnipotence would do it.

More reasonably, something like 30' melee reach, unlimited AoOs, something to counter Tumble, and Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) as a bonus feat would be a good start. That would at least make him actually difficult to get past (not counting teleportation) on typical D&D combat scales, and in a lot of fights would let him attack without having to move.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Surprised nobody's mentioned this yet, Deepstone Sentinel from ToB carries the feel of Dwarven Defender and is Dwarf exclusive while remaining playable.

[Amphetryon]

Surprised nobody's mentioned this yet, Deepstone Sentinel from ToB carries the feel of Dwarven Defender and is Dwarf exclusive while remaining playable.

ToB isn't Pathfinder (though you could use it for Pathfinder games, in general), so it's not really an answer to the OP.

To answer the OP: Everyone walked briskly away from the Dwarven Defenders. :smalltongue:

[TopCheese]

ToB isn't Pathfinder (though you could use it for Pathfinder games, in general), so it's not really an answer to the OP.

To answer the OP: Everyone walked briskly away from the Dwarven Defenders. :smalltongue:

But in their defense Pathfinder is just homebrew 3.5 sooo :smalltongue:

But there is a feat in pathfinder... Combat Patrol. I could see a defender class based around that feat (boost it to class feature level) and then give it strikes and other class features to go along with it (Stand still that works against tumbles).

Also I've always thought Deepstone Sentinel WAS Dwarven Defender 2.0 ... They just changed a heck of a lot because well.. That is what was needed to make it actually work.

[dantiesilva]

I have found combining the two in a build has great success for NPCs, and if it is an army game dwarven defender is not horrible with enough optimizing. But in a normal game as a PC it is just not a good idea because of the reasons stated. As such this is more then likly the reason they were left out. great idea for an NPC of a dwarf kings guards, not so good walking around outside the mines.