Horseplay

[Scerpico]

Bit of an odd request but my DM has, for reasons known only to him, bade me play a Horse in his newest campaign using the following stats at a 0 level adjustment. (Note that the str and Con have received a +2 bonus from a horse breed from the Forgotten realms book Champions of Valour)

Size: large
Speed: 50 feet
Natural armour: +4
Str: +8 (+2
Con: +6 (+2
Dex: +2
Wis: +2
Cha: -4

Natural attacks:
1 bite (1D4)
2 hooves (1D6)

Bonus feats: endurance, run
Lowlight vision, scent

Int is bought normally (we use 32 point buy) and the Horse cannot speak or use anything which requires hands or fine manipulation.

That said I'm not sure what to do with this as a character and was hoping you guys could give me some advice; My first thought was Totemist given the three natural weapons this already has (along with the sheer absurdity riding such a beast would create) or a psychic warrior.

Does anyone have any thoughts/advice they could give?

[Amnestic]

Buy a Pearl of Speech (600gp, MIC) if you're interested in speaking. Cheap and efficient.

The "lack of fine manipulation" clause probably cuts out a fair few spellcasters due to needing somatic components. Go Bard, take Still Spell and Perform (Tapdancing)? :smalltongue:

[Drelua]

I'd recommend Psychic Warrior, mostly because I've been considering playing one for a long time, focusing on the powers Claws of the Beast, Bite of the Wolf, and Lion's Charge and you just made me picture a horse with huge claws growing out of it's hooves and a wolf's snout charging someone and mauling them. Thank you for that.:smallbiggrin:

Honestly though, those stats are hugely powerful for LA 0 and you'd probably hugely out class a conventional party in combat, especially with a solid class like PsyWar. It seems to me this game would switch between 'let's all sit around and watch the world's most vicious horse maul a group of bad guys' and 'let's all do the talking while the guy playing the horse tries to fight the encroaching boredom'.

With that in mind, I might pick a class that doesn't take advantage of the stats quite so much, like a caster. That would even things out in combat, and there's probably a polymorph spell that would let you take part in social encounters too, though I'm not sure which would be best; I know alter self would work in PF, but not in 3.5. This is, of course, assuming you don't want to handle all the combat and none of the RPing.

Edit: Both good points from Amnestic that seem to invalidate my entire last paragraph. Feel free to ignore that bit.

[Volthawk]

Buy a Pearl of Speech (600gp, MIC) if you're interested in speaking. Cheap and efficient.

The "lack of fine manipulation" clause probably cuts out a fair few spellcasters due to needing somatic components. Go Bard, take Still Spell and Perform (Tapdancing)? :smalltongue:

Eh, there is Surrogate Spellcasting from SS if you really want to be a spellcasting horse.

[JellyPooga]

Well, if it were me, I'd go Scout and focus on Overrun...but that's just because it kinda makes sense from a horsey point of view!

[Scerpico]

Yeah it's pretty powerful for LA 0, I think he thought it'd be balanced out by the massively increased costs for armour, the inability to use magic weapons without shenanigans and me not being ale to take spellcasting classes (I won't touch Druid)

The rest of the party consists of a Dread Necromancer, a Cleric and a character using Xefas Martial Adept class focusing on Cosmic Imperator and Malfeasent Heart so this guy being the uncontested brick of the party might not be so bad seeing as the DM can be pretty brutal with the monsters.

[Waddacku]

Go Swordsage and be a ninja horse.

[JellyPooga]

Go Swordsage and be a ninja horse.

Or Rogue and be a Pirate Horse...Scourge of the Oceans, fear the dreaded Seahorse :smalltongue:

[Scerpico]

Tried the idea of a Rogue Horse, apparently thats stretching suspension of disbelief too far for my table, same with a Horse Psion.

My DM did recomend this though http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13322347&postcount=11

Anyone have any thoughts on how that could work? So far I'm getting images of Clydesdale with a handlebar moustache and spiked shoes punching the crap out of everything and running through walls.

[JeminiZero]

Since you have bite attack, you could actually buy and use mouthpick weapons (Lord of Madness), which also grants you full attacks. In which case a standard melee class like Warblade should be perfectly workable.

[Cranthis]

Whatever you do, follow in the example or Lord Bearington. Max bluff and diplomacy, and get a butler who can translate.

[Scerpico]

Since you have bite attack, you could actually buy and use mouthpick weapons (Lord of Madness), which also grants you full attacks. In which case a standard melee class like Warblade should be perfectly workable.

Oh I know about those but didn't think I'd be able to afford them till a few levels later making it a choice between trying to hold out till then or choose a class that functions fine without one from the outset.
That and the last few classes I've played have been Tome of Battle and I'd like to move away from that for a bit (Last major character was a mineral warrior crusader who spent the entire campaign ignoring damage and disarming traps with his face)

Totemist was the first idea 'cause those are all about natural weapons and the variety of available soulmelds should offer some versatility (that and what kind of monster this thing would look like with a few 'melds bound)

The same with Psionic warrior; can work very well with natural weapons and I've played them before to great effect (so great in fact that as soon as I mentioned the class the DM vetoed the idea)

Every casting class I've put forward has been rebuffed, partly because half the part are casters and partly from the rest of the party apparently being unable to take a Ninja or Psionic horse seriously...

[Randomguy]

You've got boosts to strength, con, dex and wis. Clearly, this means monk.

You could try making a horse dragonfire adept. Dragon horse FTW.

[JellyPooga]

Tried the idea of a Rogue Horse, apparently thats stretching suspension of disbelief too far for my table, same with a Horse Psion.

So a sentient Horse is ok, but one that has levels in Rogue or Psion is just a bit too much? Huh? :smallconfused: I mean, a Horse Rogue doesn't have to be a Thief...Tumble, Balance, Jump, Move Silently, Hide, Intimidate, Spot and Listen would all be appropriate skills for a Rogue Horse.

[Toy Killer]

I would go paladin, serenity for your first level feat and pick a human for your mount when you earn one....

What, just me?

[Scerpico]

So a sentient Horse is ok, but one that has levels in Rogue or Psion is just a bit too much? Huh? I mean, a Horse Rogue doesn't have to be a Thief...Tumble, Balance, Jump, Move Silently, Hide, Intimidate, Spot and Listen would all be appropriate skills for a Rogue Horse.

I know... we had a few arguments about that but I didn't care enough to press the point when they all complained.

After a bit of badgering I managed to get a prohibited class list out of my DM;

Banned classes:

Monk (DM doesn't like the class and is in the middle of creating his own version)
Fighter (ditto)
Dragonfire Adept (Made a Gnome Adept for a friend last game and he spent the whole thing Entangling everything and the DM asked us not to play one this game)
Any casting class (I'm banned from these on principle)



I would go paladin, serenity for your first level feat and pick a human for your mount when you earn one....

What, just me?

Tried that but most of the party seems to be edging around neutral or evil so a Paladin wouldn't gel too well.

Any thoughts one what I could do with the Olympian?

[only1doug]

Warlock (clawlock build)


Any Tome of Battle class.
Swordsage, Warblade or Crusader.

[JellyPooga]

Pretty limited choice then?

Err...Ranger could be kind of thematic, I suppose, though you'd be losing out with your Combat Style, unless you managed to get your DM to let you switch it out for something else, like the Wild Shape Ranger from UA.

A Barbarian Horse could be good...play up the Wild Stallion thing to the hilt. You could even focus on Intimidate somewhat...Horses are terrifying when they get going!

[Scerpico]

The problem with a Ranger is that it leaves me unable to use a large section of the class or relies on shapechanging which begs the question of why I'd bother being a Horse at all if all I'm going to do is wildshape out of it.

An intimidate build is unlikely to work wonders given the -4 charisma penalty and much of my Barbarian experience revolves around the optimisation of two-handed fighting which is clearly not an option.

I did consider a level or two to open up Totem Rager but outside of that I can't see much of a draw to the class (outside of Bear Warrior but I can take that from Totem Rager too)

Currently I'm leaning toward Totemist or Olympian does anyone have any advice regarding those classes?

[Cranthis]

Currently I'm leaning toward Totemist or Olympian does anyone have any advice regarding those classes?

Girallon arms, ASAP. For totemist of course.

[JellyPooga]

The problem with a Ranger is that it leaves me unable to use a large section of the class or relies on shapechanging which begs the question of why I'd bother being a Horse at all if all I'm going to do is wildshape out of it.

An intimidate build is unlikely to work wonders given the -4 charisma penalty and much of my Barbarian experience revolves around the optimisation of two-handed fighting which is clearly not an option.

[quote]Currently I'm leaning toward Totemist or Olympian does anyone have any advice regarding those classes?

No advice regarding Totemist, because I have no experience with it. The Olympian, after a brief scan, appears to take the Pathfinder approach to melee...if you throw lots of minor stuff at a Class, it must make it better. I beg to differ. To be honest, I dislike the look of it, but then I'm very dubious of homebrewed materials that appear to be strict improvements over published material.

As far as Barbarians and two-handed fighting goes, you're rocking a +10 modifier to your Str and 3 Natural Attacks. Bump that Strength up another 4 points for Rage and even with a Base Strength score of 10, we're talking about +7 to hit and damage. With a little focus (base score 16), that rises to +10. That's before adding anything else. Assuming you hit with all your natural attacks (and that your Bite is Primary and Hooves Secondary), that's 1d4+2d6+20 damage at 1st level. Add three if you take Power Attack. With such a high Strength score, you don't need to worry about missing, even without Multiattack.

As for Intimidate, sure you've got -4 Cha, which is good for a -2 penalty to Intimidate. Being Large means you get +4 against most things worth intimidating (i.e. Medium sized critters), so before you start, you're actually 2 points up. There's a feat (I forget what it's called) that will let you add your Strength modifier to Intimidate, so that's another +10 when raging. Then there's the Intimidating Rage feat. There's plenty of justification for aiming at an Intimidate build.

[Scerpico]

A compelling argument.
Your feelings regarding the the Olympian mirror my own; I thought it looked good at first glance but as I delved into the class I got more and more dissatisfied although I'm not sure if thats regarding the class itself or just its relation to the concept.
That and a lot of the class seems to revolve around Grapples, and while it gives a lot of boni along the Horses already huge Str and size bonus could be completely shut down with Freedom of Movement.

With Totemist I'd open with a Bite, two hooves and four claws as secondary attacks with Girallon arms bound to my totem chakra and it'd mesh well with a dip into Barbarian to open up Totem Rager (and I could trade off fast movement for pounce) which would allow for fairly preposterous damage output.

Also I'd just like to thank everyone for their input and for taking a little time to help out.

[gorfnab]

Well, if your party is leaning towards evil, a level of Soul Eater would be a nice choice especially when combined with Totemist.

[Scerpico]

Thats mean.

[Kobold Esq]

Psion / Thrallherd.

You get a way to communicate (telepathy powers). You can interact with people/monsters while still just looking like a horse. Once you have a thrall and believers, you get more ways to interact with the world by ordering your underlings around.

[Killer Angel]

Bit of an odd request but my DM has, for reasons known only to him, bade me play a Horse in his newest campaign

There was an old joke about the first edition of GURPS.
To play a horse, was a disadvantage worth 100 points.
To play a vampire, was an advantage worth 100 points.
"The Count's hooves echoed in the dark night..." :smallbiggrin:

[Gullara]

You know, being a horse you could use items like Horseshoes of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofSpeed), Horseshoes of a Zephyr (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofaZephyr), or the like. :smalltongue:

[Scerpico]

I'd completely forgotten about that! There's also those absurd Horseshoes that give a huge bonus to int and set the horses hooves on fire isn't there?

The more this thing takes shape the more I begin to think the DM'll deeply regret allowing it...

[Rubik]

So a sentient Horse is ok, but one that has levels in Rogue or Psion is just a bit too much? Huh? :smallconfused: I mean, a Horse Rogue doesn't have to be a Thief...Tumble, Balance, Jump, Move Silently, Hide, Intimidate, Spot and Listen would all be appropriate skills for a Rogue Horse.I just have one thing to say:

This. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNq7H-5bU5o)

JSYK, she also has a black belt in karate.

[edit] Also, I think your horse would be a good match for psion/slayer. Just because you're a horse doesn't mean you can't do magic stuff.

http://www.deviantart.com/download/289607767/future_twilight_sparkle_by_jamey4-d4sfas7.png

[The Viscount]

Quick note: gloves of man will help with fine manipulation.

[Rubik]

Quick note: gloves of man will help with fine manipulation.An at-will item of Mage Hand grafted onto your forehead (make it a cone) will do the same.

[dungeonnerd]

How about a Bridle of Enlarge - now you're huge size! Get some more tramply goodness! Find a way to get Half-Dragon (or homebrew Half-Nightmare!) and fly around terrorizing the townfolks.

I second (and third and fourth and...) the totemist idea. Or, if you prefer, take the alternate druid package Aspect of Nature. Nothing like a monster horse. Definitely put on those horseshoes of speediness, shape those girrilon arms, and you're only one set of legs away from being Slepnir. Then you just have to find a one-eyed god to ride you and grant you powers.

Okay, this is a silly suggestion, but hear me out - paladin. There are alternate paladins in Dragon (so help me i forget which one at the moment) so you can better match the parties alignment. Just see if the DM will let you trade away your mount for a cohort - a reasonable request, considering - and get a dragonwrought kobold with levels of wizard and enough ride skills to stay on you. Now you're a roving, smiting, general badass (use some ACF and get out of paladin as soon as you get the kobold) that's not only a tank but also a roving artillery platform. Bonus points if you can get him to let you use the paladin version with the broken healing spirit.

If you can convince him to let you use the LA buyoff rules, take the hit and grab Lolth-Touched and Insectile. More STR, more DEX, More CON, natural armor, and now you really do look like Slepnir.

Put that CON to use, grab a level of Fist of the Forest to help up your AC.

For giggles, get into Shadowdancer and Telflammar Shadowlord. Now you're a teleporting horse of surprise. [EDIT!!! Also, Hide in Plain Sight. As a large (or huge) horse that just disappears from sight in the middle of nowhere.... how can you not find that fun!]

Or, really throw everyone for a loop - grab three levels of swashbuckler for INT to Damage, and run right into Kensai. Might need a one level dip of monk to make your unarmed/natural weapons qualify, depending on how strict your DM reads rules, but it's funny. Even funnier - Dread Pirate! Long John Horsebeard!

You could also go into Thrall of Jubiblex, and become the ooze horse. I don't care what you think, oozes are hilarious.

Just because you can't talk or do fine manipulation, doesn't mean silent spell, eschew materials, and still spell don't exist in the game, so argue that you learned at a silent monestary - you'll get fewer SPD because of the metamagic feats, but it lets you qualify for amusing things. A good backstory that explains why you can do things goes a long way with a lot of DMs.

And, as always, I have to give a shoutout to Rogue/Sorcerer/Spellwarp Sniper because, lets face it, that would be a funny as hades horse and it's a fun as hades build. There are more than just the thief type rogues out there, so I dont see why not - though a horse on a Thief-acrobat build would be funny, just say you used to be a circus horse.

[dungeonnerd]

Oh, also - how does your DM feel about the different Leadership feats? The draconic one especially - a horse with a pet dragon makes me laugh. Grab Leadership, Undead Leadership and Draconic Leadership (its 3 am on christmas and I can't sleep and my kid will be up in like 2 and a half hours, sue me for not looking up the actual names) and then you don't have to worry about not spell casting or anything, you have your own roving band of goodies.

[Thiyr]

I just have one thing to say:

This. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNq7H-5bU5o)



I think you meant this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN2U5wkhRWc)

That said, with more relevance, see if your DM will let you sneak in some Dungeoncrasher in there, even if only two levels. That and knockback is a fun combo, even before your size/str mods come into play. That plus your two original ideas both are fairly solid (Psywar has expansion and plenty of other tricks, while totemist has enough extra attacks to just make it plain silly.

[Jeff the Green]

I'd recommend Psychic Warrior, mostly because I've been considering playing one for a long time, focusing on the powers Claws of the Beast, Bite of the Wolf, and Lion's Charge and you just made me picture a horse with huge claws growing out of it's hooves and a wolf's snout charging someone and mauling them. Thank you for that.:smallbiggrin:

Ooh, now I want to play a hrulga, though totemist might work better. (Cookie for anyone who gets the reference.)

[Slipperychicken]

Ride an Elephant.

If your group shoots down all of your ideas on account of absurdity, let them know they just begged you to play an intelligent horse in a band of superhuman murder-hobos who fully intend to punch dragons to death. If they still refuse any means of letting you communicate, cast spells, or have fine manipulation, just ditch the horse.

[Alabenson]

Ooh, now I want to play a hrulga, though totemist might work better. (Cookie for anyone who gets the reference.)

Hmmm, a psychotic, meat-eating murder-horse traveling with a band of violent murder-hobos.
Seems like a good idea to me.

From David Eddings Belgariad, right?

[Erik Vale]

@^ Good call.

After the first few posts, I just sort of skimmed through.
I would just go Druid, and then find out if I could 'wild shape' into a humanoid.


Anyhow, this doesn't happen to be a punishment for some reason?

[Aasimar]

If this is pathfinder, then barbarian using the beast totem, going for a massive pounce. (could take totemist archetype so you could also get a natural attack totem, to boost unarmed attacks)

If this is not pathfinder, switch to pathfinder.

[Scerpico]

Looking over the numbers and the needs of the party I've settled on Totemist/barbarian leading into Totem Rager.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to help and give advice,I hope that I can prove as helpful should you post a thread.