early entry into mystic thurge will low caster lvl loss

[morkendi]

I like the versatility of mt, but the caster lvl loss hurts in long run. I know the precocious apprentice trick, but I think this was even faster with less cheese. Take 3 lvls wizard, but 3rd lvl feat has to be arcain deciple. Take a domain like luck that gives you access to a secound lvl devine spell for domain. Now go 1 lvl cloistered cleric and at 5th, you can go MT with only 1 lvl lost on wizard side and the 1 domain you first chose. Your cleric side is 3 lvls behind, but you get most the wizard awesomeness at very little cost. Plus you would get 4 domain and 2 domain spells per day if I read the rules right with cloistered cleric. You could evrn sack knowledge domain for knowledge devotion...

[mattie_p]

Arcane disciple: "You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain as arcane spells."

[Keynub]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Precocious Apprentice + Southern Magician (or Alternative Source Spell if regional feats are out) let you qualify at level 3.

Arcane Disciple has nothing to do with it though.

[morkendi]

Southern magician looks good, though it seems a little cheesey to go in at third. Maybe take a flaw and work it in to the above build and I dont see anything against any rules. If human, i would take collegiate wiz, southern magician, and improved initiative. Third lvl arcaine deciple and things would be good.

[Story]

The Catalogues of Enlightenment might work but the wording is very vague.

Divine Oracle gives a domain, but unfortunately it's still arcane.

[morkendi]

Put it on paper to see. The only problem is that one side will stop as MT is only 10 lvls. I took grey elf with first 3 lvls martial variant wiz. Feats imp initiative, collegiate wiz, southern magician, and 2 flaws. 3rd lvl feat, arcane disciple with Curellon Larethian with war domain. 5th into MT for 10 lvls. Feats are combat casting, spell focus abjuation, spell focus transmutation. 15 through 18 I took abjurent champion with skill focus spellcraft and quicken spell. 19 and 20 I went arch mage with mastery shaping and a sla. End up with 11 bab, 7 fort, 5 reflex, 18 will. Only loose 1 caster lvl on wiz, but cleric only progresses to 11 caster lvls.

I tried to go evil and use ur priest, but they loose any divine casting when they start which would negate the southern magician. I would have to go wiz 3/ monk 1/ ur priest 2 with a high wisdom for bonus spell/ MT 8/ Abj champ 4/ archmage 2. Would lose 3 lvls wizard, but have access to 9th lvl spells on both sides.

[Arcanist]

The contents of my signature should help :smallsmile: The earliest I've ever seen of Mystic Theurge would be Wizard1 / Cleric1 / +1 level for either of these.

The best entry would be Wizard9 / Ur-Priest2 / Mystic Theurge 9 for a CL loss of 2 on Wizard casting (A superior variant of this would be using Erudite or StP-Erudite in place of Wizard)

EDIT: If memory serves Arcane Disciple grants you the Domain spells as Arcane spells which doesn't grant access to the Domain, it simply grants you the spells known. To be fair, "Domain access" is a hard thing to label since it is never truly defined as a game term (at least I've never seen it). The ACF "Domain Access" for the Sorcerer (CC) grants you "Domain Access" in the form of allowing you to use the Domain power and the spells.

I've seen people argue that being able to use the Domain Power qualifies as "Domain Access", but I've also seen people argue that being able to use the Domain's Spells also qualifies. Unfortunately WoTC has never came out and say what that precisely means, fortunately, however most people play it safe and simply just dip a level in Cloistered Cleric :smalltongue:

[morkendi]

Thinking of a dread necro/ ur priest build....

[Arcanist]

Thinking of a dread necro/ ur priest build....

Don't. Go Necromancer / Ur-Priest and pick up Theurgic Specialist. much more versatility and now you have an infinite CL. ESCHER LOGIC! :smallbiggrin:

[toapat]

Wizard 2/Archivist 1/MT 10/Legacy Champion 6/ Archivist 2

About as much power as you can get out of MT without sacrificing power

[Story]

How do you get into it with just Wizard 2/Archivist 1?

[Arcanist]

How do you get into it with just Wizard 2/Archivist 1?

Precocious Apprentice. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a)

[Kobold Esq]

Precocious Apprentice. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a)


Are there any DMs who actually allow this sort of thing in their games? Whenever I see discussions about early entry stuff, I always just think to myself, "Any player who brought that build would just be told 'no'."

[Arcanist]

Are there any DMs who actually allow this sort of thing in their games? Whenever I see discussions about early entry stuff, I always just think to myself, "Any player who brought that build would just be told 'no'."

I generally allow it :smallconfused:

But hey, I'm a crazy guy, I actually *gasp* USE THE EPIC RULES!

[toapat]

Are there any DMs who actually allow this sort of thing in their games? Whenever I see discussions about early entry stuff, I always just think to myself, "Any player who brought that build would just be told 'no'."

you are a solid level behind on your wizard casting until lvl 14, at which point you are behind the singleclassed sorcerer for spell progression.

Endurance is largely your only advantage with a Full powered MT, expecially because you lose out entirely on MM reduction

[Kobold Esq]

I guess the problem I always had in CharOp forums on the WotC site back in my day (haven't really done much DnDing in the past few years) was that it always felt like unless the whole campaign was turned up to 11, and everyone was into it, things would become wildly unfun for everyone involved.

Despite this, most threads never asked the OP "Hey, what sort of power level is your game?" Every thread generally had posters tripping over themselves trying to suggest the most bleeding-edge power options. Maybe I wildly misunderstand the types of games other people are playing, but I can't imagine most of the creations I see on the CharOp forums being appropriate in the games I played in. This is especially true for any discussion of "early entry" to PrCs.

Again, I admit that it may be that my experiences are the outliers here.

[Story]

Precocious Apprentice. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a)

That only works for arcane casters, RAI, and probably RAW too. And even if it weren't restricted, you can only apply it to one side.

[toapat]

understand that there are relative levels of Optimization. Most anything involving Mystic Theurge is going to be costing alot of power from the entry classes, as the more practical entries, such as the Wizard2/Archivist 2 is pretty far behind, and has no Metamagic reduction open to them, even allowing the cheesy application of True IntSAD and Practiced spellcaster (Mystic Theurge) (Which RAW works), you end up with a character who is not actually severely broken, as most of their spells are coming in late, they have to cast most spells straight instead of cheapened, and they primarily even more are forced to play GodWizard


That only works for the wizard side, since it can only be taken at level 1.

The Lvl 3 entry (ignoring skillpoints) uses Alternate Spell Source with Precocious Apprentice as their first level wizard feat.

[Sziget Pengék]

Arcane disciple: "You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain as arcane spells."

This is how i made mine, so much faster. Was part of a Warmage1/Rainbowservant 10 build, i just filled the levels in after 11 with MT, made for some pretty insane caster levels.

[Malimar]

Are there any DMs who actually allow this sort of thing in their games? Whenever I see discussions about early entry stuff, I always just think to myself, "Any player who brought that build would just be told 'no'."

I allow Precocious Apprentice and Southern Magician to work towards qualifying for theurge, just like RAW.

But! I have these houserules: You can't take both on the same character. And you can't take either if you have the ability to cast prepared spells. (Because I like the idea of making Sorcerer and Favored Soul and Dread Necromancer and Warmage and Beguiler and Healer (which I houserule to cast spontaneously) and so on slightly less unviable choices for theurging.) Also, you can't advance one same class with both sides of MT at once (that may or may not be RAW, but I make it explicit).

[Arcanist]

Practiced spellcaster (Mystic Theurge) (Which RAW works)

If it really worked by RAW you wouldn't feel the need to support it so sternly. By your logic (I imagine this is your logic) you would only be able to cast spells from the Mystic Theurge spell list (which doesn't exist). A Spellcasting class is any class that can cast spells from a specifically designated list (Like Sorcerer's cast spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list).

Honestly, this is like the idea that you can use Versatile Spellcaster to spontaneously cast any spell in the game. (can't remember the exact argument, but it was based on the idea that Versatile Spellcaster allowed you to spontaneously cast any spell known which can be casted out of a Prayerbook and Spellbook, if you took a level dip in a class that allowed for Spontaneous spellcasting or by having the ability to spontaneously cast spells).


understand that there are relative levels of Optimization. Most anything involving Mystic Theurge is going to be costing alot of power from the entry classes, as the more practical entries, such as the Wizard2/Archivist 2 is pretty far behind, and has no Metamagic reduction open to them, even allowing the cheesy application of True IntSAD and [...] you end up with a character who is not actually severely broken, as most of their spells are coming in late, they have to cast most spells straight instead of cheapened, and they primarily even more are forced to play GodWizard

Ignoring everything else, yes, as a Mystic Theurge you are "forced" to play God in that you must be able to do everything that everyone else in your party can do, except better. You can control the battlefield, you can teleport, you can traverse the planes, you can blow up your enemies, you can lead hoards of allies. Honestly you just have to play 10 steps ahead of everyone else... Just like Batman :smalltongue: (Uncanny Forethought helps like hell with this).


The Lvl 3 entry (ignoring skillpoints) uses Alternate Spell Source with Precocious Apprentice as their first level wizard feat.

My only question for this is "Why settle for 2 list when you can have 3?" :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

That only works for arcane casters, RAI, and probably RAW too. And even if it weren't restricted, you can only apply it to one side.

There are tricks for the divine side, albeit less of them. Improved Krau Illumian is one.

[toapat]

If it really worked by RAW you wouldn't feel the need to support it so sternly. By your logic (I imagine this is your logic) you would only be able to cast spells from the Mystic Theurge spell list (which doesn't exist). A Spellcasting class is any class that can cast spells from a specifically designated list (Like Sorcerer's cast spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list).

My only question for this is "Why settle for 2 list when you can have 3?" :smalltongue:

Nothing RAW prevents Practiced Spellcaster from working on Mystic Theurge, its just not typically accepted that WotC are moronic enough to never have defined "Spellcasting class" enough to prevent it.


Typically because getting anything past Every spell in the game not exclusive to Paladin/Blackguard (there are a small number) is already so huge of an investment that you are behind. Although you can advance Cerebremancer with Mystic Theurge. Most classes cant progress Mystic Theurge though because it is an Arcane/Divine spellcaster, and so technically doesnt qualify as a target for specific sides.

[Arcanist]

Nothing RAW prevents Practiced Spellcaster from working on Mystic Theurge, its just not typically accepted that WotC are moronic enough to never have defined "Spellcasting class" enough to prevent it.

Nothing RAW prevents Fighter's from having at will free action disintegrate with no save or SR, but clearly we are logical enough to conclude that they don't. Saying that "It doesn't say that I can't" isn't even an argument in this kind of discussion otherwise you can pull of so many things that go above and beyond the rules simply because "they don't say otherwise". :smallannoyed:


Typically because getting anything past Every spell in the game not exclusive to Paladin/Blackguard (there are a small number) is already so huge of an investment that you are behind. Although you can advance Cerebremancer with Mystic Theurge. Most classes cant progress Mystic Theurge though because it is an Arcane/Divine spellcaster, and so technically doesnt qualify as a target for specific sides.

I have NO idea what you were talking about here, I think you were supposed to quote something I said here and respond... Not sure :smallredface:

The 3 list in a single Theurge build is using cheese so debatable that it isn't even fair to use in a legitimate game. Human Stp Spell-Focused Erudite9 / Ur-Priest 2 / Psychic Theurge 9

The reason this is debatable is because as a Human you are granted one bonus feat at level one and Spell-to-Power allows you to sacrifice a single bonus feat that you would obtain at level one to cast Spells as Psionics. Since these spells are treated as Discipline powers for all intensive purposes you can take Favored Discipline by sacrificing your Human bonus feat in place of your Erudite bonus feat (that you already sacrificed).

It's debatable for 2 reasons:

1) Spells counting as Discipline powers for the sake of Favored Disciple.
2) Being able to sacrifice your Human bonus feat as your 1st level bonus feat for meeting the prerequisites of taking a 2nd ACF.

[morkendi]

The main reason I did it the way I did is to stay away from the early entry cheese and still be viable to play without being over the top. I believe it makes sense this way and is defendable if questioned by DM. With wizard side only 1 lvl behind, the character should be able to keep up with the single class casters. The build also fits in a roleplaying aspect which my dm would insist upon. I see it as a elf mage that worships the elven gods enough to get some clerical powers, but not enough to rival a priest that devotes thier entire existence to them. I always felt that as a caster, the main rule is don't do anything that takes away caster lvl without a very solid return. I always felt the MT was ok low levels and higher lvls, but falls flat in the middle of the progression when he is missing some of the higher slots a single class caster would have. A 12 lvl wizard would wipe the floor with a wiz3/ cleric 3/ mt 6 just because of available spells even though they have the same experience.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Forget Precocious Apprentice even exists, RAW it doesn't work for early entry anyway, which has been officially confirmed.

Sanctum Spell is a one-feat early entry for any class in the game, for every class you have.

Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau is my personal favorite, due to Krau fixing your caster levels.

Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, and Earth Spell is another method of early entry, but three feats is a bit too much for anyone but a Shadowcraft Mage.

You can combine two of the above for an early entry of two spell levels (Warmage 1 into Rainbow Servant, for example). Three of those is a three spell level early entry, but I don't think that's necessary for any build, ever.

[Arcanist]

RAW it doesn't work for early entry anyway, which has been officially confirmed.

Out of curiousity, I'm curious where you heard this? (A link would be lovely actually) :smallsmile:

[Zeful]

Honestly, this is like the idea that you can use Versatile Spellcaster to spontaneously cast any spell in the game.

Not any spell. But it's using backwards logic to say that any spontaneous caster that knows the entirety of his list every time he gets access to a new spell level can cast spells one level higher than you'd otherwise be able, despite the feat not actually giving access to new spell level.

[Psyren]

Forget Precocious Apprentice even exists, RAW it doesn't work for early entry anyway, which has been officially confirmed.

This ought to be good.

[Arcanist]

Not any spell. But it's using backwards logic to say that any spontaneous caster that knows the entirety of his list every time he gets access to a new spell level can cast spells one level higher than you'd otherwise be able, despite the feat not actually giving access to new spell level.

No, I mean the argument was that since the content of a Wizard's spellbook are considered "Spells Known" then a Sorcerer1 / Wizard19 can spontaneously cast any of his spells known (which would be any spell from his spellbook). I'd honestly rather not go out of my way to find the thread where the guy argued this (I recall it being from a Wizard V Sorcerer thread or something).


This ought to be good.

Hey, give every argument the benefit of the doubt is what I always say. Even if an argument doesn't make sense to me, it might make sense to someone else :smallbiggrin: (This case however is dealing with "facts" which you can either be right or wrong in).

[docnessuno]

I still prefer versatile spellcaster + heighteen spell.
RAW unambiguous, but of course requires spontaneous casting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Out of curiousity, I'm curious where you heard this? (A link would be lovely actually) :smallsmile:

From the Main FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 43:

If a 1st-level character takes the Precocious Apprentice
feat, can he cast 2nd-level spells for the purposes of
qualifying for a prestige class or meeting the prerequisites
of a feat?
In the Sage’s opinion, the Precocious Apprentice feat
would not help you qualify for a prestige class or feat because
it gives you a chance at casting a 2nd-level spell, not the
inherent ability to cast 2nd-level spells.

This would be akin to a Wizard 5/ Wild Mage 4 taking Forge Ring because his caster level could be 12th when casting some spells.

[olentu]

From the Main FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 43:


This would be akin to a Wizard 5/ Wild Mage 4 taking Forge Ring because his caster level could be 12th when casting some spells.

Did you notice the part where that answer is just personal opinion. I mean, that category does make up a good deal of the FAQ but this is extra specially called out as being opinion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Did you notice the part where that the answer is just personal opinion. I mean, that category does make up a good deal of the FAQ but this is extra specially called out as being opinion.

That it works is no more RAW than that it does not work. I've already given a solid example of another situation in which you have a chance at meeting a prerequisite, yet cannot reliably meet that prerequisite.

[Arcanist]

From the Main FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 43

Interesting. Never knew that... Well at least being a human and going with the good old fashion DMM: Heighten spell is always an option (and since you're a Theurge, most likely theurging it up with some Arcane in the mix, you can just Chaos shuffle them away (or in a different order)! [Argument for another day]). Just asking but isn't asking the FAQ the equivalent of asking CustServ to answer your question? :smallconfused:

[olentu]

That it works is no more RAW than that it does not work. I've already given a solid example of another situation in which you have a chance at meeting a prerequisite, yet cannot reliably meet that prerequisite.

1: Your claim was "RAW it doesn't work for early entry anyway, which has been officially confirmed." which is not the same thing as the situation being unclear under the rules.

2: I see no problem with meeting the perquisites for feats only temporarily. In fact the situation is accounted for by the rules describing what happens when one loses the perquisites of feats.

3: A question. Do arcane casters, in your opinion, lose the benefits of all feats and prestige classes that require the ability to cast spells as soon as they put on a piece of armor that has an arcane spell failure chance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1: Your claim was "RAW it doesn't work for early entry anyway, which has been officially confirmed." which is not the same thing as the situation being unclear under the rules.

2: I see no problem with meeting the perquisites for feats only temporarily. In fact the situation is accounted for by the rules describing what happens when one loses the perquisites of feats.

3: A question. Do arcane casters, in your opinion, lose the benefits of all feats and prestige classes that require the ability to cast spells as soon as they put on a piece of armor that has an arcane spell failure chance.

1. I should have said something more like, "RAW does not in any way support this working" rather than that RAW states it doesn't work.

2. Unless that wizard in my example is casting a spell every round for 8 hours per day for the entire time it takes to craft a magic ring, and rolling a six on that 1d6 caster level bonus from wild mage, he's not going to be able to actually use his forge ring feat. Even if all 4,800 spells per day get a roll of six, he can't even craft if he's spending all his time casting. Frankly, it just doesn't work at all.

3. Temporarily reducing your success to less than 100% does not change the fact that your normal capability is 100%. A normal capability at less than 100% is not qualifying.

[Arcanist]

3. Temporarily reducing your success to less than 100% does not change the fact that your normal capability is 100%. A normal capability at less than 100% is not qualifying.

Awesome. So that means that all I need to do is increase my caster level by 8 so that it becomes 100% that I can cast a 2nd level Precocious spell :smallsmile: I mean if all we need to do is insure that it won't fail then that should be easy enough. :smallbiggrin:

[olentu]

1. I should have said something more like, "RAW does not in any way support this working" rather than that RAW states it doesn't work.

2. Unless that wizard in my example is casting a spell every round for 8 hours per day for the entire time it takes to craft a magic ring, and rolling a six on that 1d6 caster level bonus from wild mage, he's not going to be able to actually use his forge ring feat. Even if all 4,800 spells per day get a roll of six, he can't even craft if he's spending all his time casting. Frankly, it just doesn't work at all.

3. Temporarily reducing your success to less than 100% does not change the fact that your normal capability is 100%. A normal capability at less than 100% is not qualifying.

Uncertainty in the rules would probably have been a better stance to take. Since the requirement of the ability to cast spells of a particular level is, so far as I know, not specifically defined with regards to what satisfies it there is no method that works without a DM ruling.

Well anyway, if we agree on the uncertainty in the rules I suppose there is nothing more to say, really.

[Aasimar]

Since these spells are treated as Discipline powers for all intensive purposes you can take Favored Discipline by sacrificing your Human bonus feat in place of your Erudite bonus feat (that you already sacrificed).

hehehe, 'intensive' purposes.

[Aasimar]

Also, I kinda maybe agree that Mystic Theurge isn't technically speaking worth the sacrifice, but I would not allow any kind of early entry shenanigans. You get the caster levels the old fashioned way, or you don't get in, no Ur-Priest nonsense either.

[Arcanist]

hehehe, 'intensive' purposes.

It might just be my personality not fitting the circle in the right peg, but... I don't get it...


Also, I kinda maybe agree that Mystic Theurge isn't technically speaking worth the sacrifice, but I would not allow any kind of early entry shenanigans. You get the caster levels the old fashioned way, or you don't get in, no Ur-Priest nonsense either.

Meh... I'm partial towards Dwermokeeper :smalltongue:

[Aasimar]

The phrase is "For all intents and purposes."
:smallbiggrin:

[toapat]

Nothing RAW prevents Fighter's from having at will free action disintegrate with no save or SR, but clearly we are logical enough to conclude that they don't. Saying that "It doesn't say that I can't" isn't even an argument in this kind of discussion otherwise you can pull of so many things that go above and beyond the rules simply because "they don't say otherwise". :smallannoyed:

except, that by raw. The only way to get that is by being a beholder, not a humanoid.

By definition, as we can best extrapolate, mystic theurge qualifies and it works, no matter how douche you are with your counterpoint. By RAI, of course it doesn't work

[Hiro Protagonest]

From the Main FAQ (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 43:


This would be akin to a Wizard 5/ Wild Mage 4 taking Forge Ring because his caster level could be 12th when casting some spells.
In the Sage's opinion. Was The Sage even one of the devs?

Plus, stuff from the FAQ is generally considered RAI at best.

except, that by raw. The only way to get that is by being a beholder, not a humanoid.

Exactly. Since there are rules for Disintegrate, and requirements for Disintegrate, fighters cannot use at-will Disintegrate.

[Malimar]

All these years, I thought Southern Magician + Precocious Apprentice was the least ambiguous Mystic Theurge early-entry shenanigan. How is it that I managed never to notice (or accept the validity of) Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell until just now?

The Sage says a caster can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast metamagic'd spells at a higher level than they would normally have spells (which, in turn, permits early MT entry cheese). How widely-accepted is that interpretation, really? Are there any flaws with it that I'm not seeing?

[Arcanist]

except, that by raw. The only way to get that is by being a beholder, not a humanoid.

By definition, as we can best extrapolate, mystic theurge qualifies and it works, no matter how douche you are with your counterpoint. By RAI, of course it doesn't work

The point of the statement is that just because the rule don't say that you don't get something doesn't make it a sound argument that you would get it.

For example: The rules don't say that Fighter DOES NOT get that, therefore jumping to the (incorrect) conclusion that you do get it, because nothing confirms nor denies this.

...Ugh... the fact I am arguing this is stupid enough as it is...


The phrase is "For all intents and purposes."
:smallbiggrin:

Silly me :smallconfused:

[Kazyan]

Friends don't let friends use Precocious Apprentice.

Unless it's being used for its intended purpose, I guess. Early access to Alter Self, or Wraithstrike (you're not using your swift actions for anything else at levels 1-2, so it's no big deal if you flub the roll), assuming those spells haven't been fixed, anyway.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As I said earlier, just use Sanctum Spell instead of Precocious Apprentice, especially for MT entry since it works with both divine and arcane. It's even still useful later on, as you can put it on a 4th level spell (Greater Luminous Armor) and use a Lesser Metamagic Rod (of Extend) with it, and use it to put 4th level spells into Spell Storing weapons.

[Arcanist]

As I said earlier, just use Sanctum Spell instead of Precocious Apprentice, especially for MT entry since it works with both divine and arcane. It's even still useful later on, as you can put it on a 4th level spell (Greater Luminous Armor) and use a Lesser Metamagic Rod (of Extend) with it, and use it to put 4th level spells into Spell Storing weapons.

If you go this route make sure to pick up the planning domain. Matter as well lighten your feat tax.

[sreservoir]

incidentally, was there anything wrong with heighten on a naenhoon illumian for qualifications?

[Arcanist]

incidentally, was there anything wrong with heighten on a naenhoon illumian for qualifications?

No. By RAW it functions.

[toapat]

The point of the statement is that just because the rule don't say that you don't get something doesn't make it a sound argument that you would get it.

For example: The rules don't say that Fighter DOES NOT get that, therefore jumping to the (incorrect) conclusion that you do get it, because nothing confirms nor denies this.

...Ugh... the fact I am arguing this is stupid enough as it is...

Your argument would be more accurate if you said that Practiced Spellcaster cant be taken by PrCs because the example it gives is only for base spellcasting classes. Because the class features of Fighter are very specific, and if you could find a FBF that was Disintegrate At Will, which being 3.5 someone has homebrewed that feat specifically for the Your Argument is Invalid comment.

Because the only definition of Spellcasting Class we have is "A class which progresses Spellcasting", Practiced spellcaster can be taken, and because of how MT works, it applies to the chosen classes. It certain to hell shouldnt, but it does. Arguing that is stupid, on the other hand it isnt particularly broken for MT. It is for Cerebremancer

[Story]

Would an Adamantine Horror with Fighter levels work? I'm sure there's something you can do with Polymorph Any Object here.

[Arcanist]

Your argument would be more accurate if you said that Practiced Spellcaster cant be taken by PrCs because the example it gives is only for base spellcasting classes. Because the class features of Fighter are very specific, and if you could find a FBF that was Disintegrate At Will, which being 3.5 someone has homebrewed that feat specifically for the Your Argument is Invalid comment.

... My argument was to point out the holes in your logic which is to assume without justification that something exist without prior evidence to the contrary.


Because the only definition of Spellcasting Class we have is "A class which progresses Spellcasting", Practiced spellcaster can be taken, and because of how MT works, it applies to the chosen classes. It certain to hell shouldnt, but it does. Arguing that is stupid, on the other hand it isnt particularly broken for MT. It is for Cerebremancer

Correction. A spell casting class is defined as a class with it's own spellcasting progression such as Sorcerer or Ur-Priest, if your argument were true, Legacy Champion would be all of these things since it CAN advance Spellcasting, Manifesting, Initiator, Invocations, Binding, Truenaming, Infusions, etc. Making it all of these things at once.

...OH and Cerebremancer would gain little to no benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. With an Arcane-Psionic theurge you are better off maximizing your Arcane half and taking Practiced Manifester since Powers scale with Manifester level where as Spells don't scale with Caster Level (at least not as good as Manifester level), but that was me being nitpicky :smallsmile:

It's also a great way to overcome your one-two casting :smalltongue:

[toapat]

Correction. A spell casting class is defined as a class with it's own spellcasting progression such as Sorcerer or Ur-Priest, if your argument were true, Legacy Champion would be all of these things since it CAN advance Spellcasting, Manifesting, Initiator, Invocations, Binding, Truenaming, Infusions, etc. Making it all of these things at once.

No it isnt, because Spellcasting Class is not defined in the rules, No matter how logically it should be A class that provides its own Spellcasting table.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spellcaster is actually defined in the back of the PHB: "A character capable of casting spells." A spellcasting class would therefore be any class which all by itself would grant a character this status.

If a character has a Charm Person spell-like ability at caster level 5+, but no other spellcasting capability, he can take a level of Mindbender. He is still unable to cast spells, and thus he is not a spellcaster, therefore Mindbender is not a spellcasting class because it did not grant him the status of a spellcaster. The same can be said of any other class that advances the casting of another class, it piggybacks on an actual spellcasting class and by itself is not capable of making a character a spellcaster.

[toapat]

Spellcaster is actually defined in the back of the PHB: "A character capable of casting spells." A spellcasting class would therefore be any class which all by itself would grant a character this status.

except, extrapolation doesnt count.

[mattie_p]

except, extrapolation doesnt count.

That is a bold statement, toapat, I hope you have a rules quotation to back it up with?

While the sentiment is admirable, some extrapolation of non-defined terms is necessary in order to play the game.

[toapat]

That is a bold statement, toapat, I hope you have a rules quotation to back it up with?

While the sentiment is admirable, some extrapolation of non-defined terms is necessary in order to play the game.

the argument is over RAW vs RAI, Extrapolation in that does not count.

RAW, Practiced Spellcaster can be applied to any class which involves Vancian Spellcasting.

RAI it should only be allowed to be taken by classes which grant a Unique progression of spellcasting, not advance another class'.

[Arcanist]

Spellcaster is actually defined in the back of the PHB: "A character capable of casting spells." A spellcasting class would therefore be any class which all by itself would grant a character this status.

To reword this (or add on to it). Because it is not possible to be considered a spellcaster with just Mystic Theurge levels it is not a spellcasting class.

[toapat]

To reword this (or add on to it). Because it is not possible to be considered a spellcaster with just Mystic Theurge levels it is not a spellcasting class.

Extrapolation, again, doesnt count in RAW because it is not RAW, unless the rules specifically call out extrapolation, such as the Hardness/HP rules which specifically state that certain materials are weak to certain attacks.

[Arcanist]

Extrapolation, again, doesn't count in RAW because it is not RAW, unless the rules specifically call out extrapolation, such as the Hardness/HP rules which specifically state that certain materials are weak to certain attacks.

Alright. So please, tell me your reason for believing that Mystic Theurge is a Spellcaster for the purpose of Practiced Spellcaster. If it works by RAW than awesome, you can have a Wizard 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Cleric 1 / Favored Soul 1 / Mystic Theurge 2 with Practiced spellcaster for Mystic Theurge then my Wizard, Sorcerer, Favored Soul and Cleric can have a caster level of 5 (2 levels of Mystic Theurge distributed evenly among the Spellcasting classes).

If you would also be so kind as to point out bluntly that a Prestige class that grants +1 to whatever caster level counts as a spellcaster. Otherwise you'd have to consider the Legacy Champion, the Hellfire Warlock, the Uncanny Trickster to be Spellcasters (as well as Invocators, Truespeakers, Infusers, etc.) as well.

[Kobold Esq]

This is where I, if I were DM of this game would say, "If you're arguing over what the rules actually say, then the answer is no."

From a general "internet discussion standpoint," I think there is no way you'll convince each other, but the simplest solution is to take the less powerful answer, since it will be more applicable to more players.

[Story]

Especially since if you do interpret class progressing Prcs as valid targets, then you get an infinite loop. At that point, Punpun travels back in time and erases you from existence.

[Arcanist]

Especially since if you do interpret class progressing Prcs as valid targets, then you get an infinite loop. At that point, Punpun travels back in time and erases you from existence.

Not necessarily. If this is the case the loop ends once it hits your HD.

[Story]

It's still patently stupid.

[Arcanist]

It's still patently stupid.

Hey, my personal favorite method of infinite caster level is just being an Evoker9 / Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge 9 for Infinite caster level Blasphemy :smalltongue: (See Theurgic Specialist, See Ur-Priest style of caster level, laugh 4 dayz)

[Kazyan]

That is a bold statement, toapat, I hope you have a rules quotation to back it up with?

Actually, let's unblue that. RAW, why isn't subtext valid?

[toapat]

It's still patently stupid.

Thats RAW for you. WotC thought Logic was good enough. turns out it isnt. Half of the Glossary is actually useless as a result.


the problem can be broken down into three parts:

Spellcasting Classes were never defined and never separated into Base and Expansion Spellcasting Classes (Base being classes which grant a unique spellcasting progression)

Practiced Spellcaster does not specify that it requires a targeted class that is actually granting its own spellcasting progression.

Mystic Theurge is, RAW, a spellcasting class. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm) The specific wording of Practiced Spellcaster and the wording on MT's wording of Spells per day is just vague enough that technically, you dont know exactly whether the feat trickles down into your chosen classes.


Actually, let's unblue that. RAW, why isn't subtext valid?

I already said why: Im talking about a very Strict RAW error that is specifically about how moronic WotC was with the glossary, where Extrapolation, something that is not said specifically within the rules, requires RAI.

I will not argue that RAI you shouldnt be able to do it (seriously, there is a gnat's fart worth of things that cant be done by a good MT), the point is you can.

[Arcanist]

Thats RAW for you. WotC thought Logic was good enough. turns out it isnt. Half of the Glossary is actually useless as a result.

Yes, how dare WoTC assume that people are intelligent enough to figure that 2 + 2 = 4! The fiends!


Spellcasting Classes were never defined and never separated into Base and Expansion Spellcasting Classes (Base being classes which grant a unique spellcasting progression)

Probably because neither of these exist. I mean, by your logic if I take Magical Training as a Fighter, I obviously qualify as a Spellcaster and can therefore take Practiced Spellcaster for my Fighter as well.


Practiced Spellcaster does not specify that it requires a targeted class that is actually granting its own spellcasting progression.


Choose a spellcasting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful.

I sincerely welcome you to try and argue to your DM that you have a Mystic Theurge spell list.


Mystic Theurge is, RAW, a spellcasting class. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm) The specific wording of Practiced Spellcaster and the wording on MT's wording of Spells per day is just vague enough that technically, you dont know exactly whether the feat trickles down into your chosen classes.

Quote the text that specifically calls Mystic Theurge out as a Spellcaster. The word "Spellcaster" is used 26 times in the SRD (on the Mystic Theurge page), but not once is it actually called out as being a spellcaster in it's own regard (checked the DMG as well, nope it doesn't call it out either... I wonder why?)

If this is actually true then you can have cases where you can be a Diviner 2 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge 1 / Master Specialist 1 (Mystic Theurge) / Red Wizard 10 (Mystic Theurge).

You're idea suggest that it is possible for a Prestige class to be able to grant it's increased spell level to another Spell progressing prestige class.


I already said why: Im talking about a very Strict RAW error that is specifically about how moronic WotC was with the glossary, where Extrapolation, something that is not said specifically within the rules, requires RAI.

You cannot ignore a rule of the game and call it RAW.


I will not argue that RAI you shouldnt be able to do it (seriously, there is a gnat's fart worth of things that cant be done by a good MT), the point is you can.

The bolded has yet to be proven.

Bah, I've enough of this. Neither of us is going to convince the other. I bid you the best of luck convincing anyone else to your line of reasoning :smallannoyed:

[Story]

English language is not a strict mathematical formula. If you want to be that pedantically technical, there is no such thing as RAW, because all language requires interpretation. Or as one might say, it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

When people say RAW, they usually mean what a reasonable person (i.e. them) would interpret the literal meaning of the text to be. Some places are more ambiguous than others, but in this case there is a broad consensus on the intended meaning. The fact that you're interpreting things differently than most people on the board means that what you are talking about is not what is generally meant by RAW.

[toapat]

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1287666826226.png

You quoted the description, not the Requirements or Benefits, of Practiced Spellcaster.

Fluff =/= Rules


Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Bolded Relevant RAW stupidity

Quite an interesting Hole, as it defines Mystic Theurge as a <Nondescript> Spellcasting Class.

On the other hand, the wording of MT is so terrible that it is difficult to tell if the class can advance the caster level of its benefiting classes.


English language is not a strict mathematical formula. If you want to be that pedantically technical, there is no such thing as RAW, because all language requires interpretation. Or as one might say, it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

When people say RAW, they usually mean what a reasonable person (i.e. them) would interpret the literal meaning of the text to be. Some places are more ambiguous than others, but in this case there is a broad consensus on the intended meaning. The fact that you're interpreting things differently than most people on the board means that what you are talking about is not what is generally meant by RAW.

There is a difference between Gameplay Terminology and Language Innotation. Anything that is Terminology really, really should be defined so issues like this cant happen.

Most people say that you can DCFS Fighter Feats, but the PHB2 shows that bonus feat slots like the fighter's are flass features that constantly watch the feats that they grant, and since there is no Abyssal Heritor Fighter Bonus Feat, you cant DCFS fighter bonus feats.

[Arcanist]

On the other hand, the wording of MT is so terrible that it is difficult to tell if the class can advance the caster level of its benefiting classes

That stows it, we're getting trolled :smallannoyed:

[toapat]

That stows it, we're getting trolled :smallannoyed:

being able to apply a feat to a class, and that feat entirely working the normal way, are different, which is what i mean

Mystic Theurge has wording as far as Practiced spellcaster is concerned that we need an epic ranger/truenamer gestalt to figure that out.