Understanding the Ghost Template

[killem2]

So, after the Three Faces of Evil module came to a close, and the party chose to have Filge come with them, (which was foolish), he was killed in a very horrible and disturbing fashion. He was dismembered and utterly destroyed in the God in the Pool segment.

Well, we're taking a long break from my session so some one else can be a DM, but that doesn't mean I get to stop preparing for when we do play again.

I want Filge's ghost to start haunting them for his death. (Technically, the female wizard in our group charmed him, and convinced him it would do her a huge favor to lead the party valiantly into battle).

What I don't understand is, how spellcasting works as a ghost. Is it still just as it was? He was a level 7 Wizard before his demise. Does he still prepare spells? Does he get spells?

[Urpriest]

Yes, he still prepares and gets spells. Ghost is a template, so in order to figure out the abilities the ghost has you just apply the template. Perhaps you could describe what aspects are confusing you (for example, what line in the template makes you think they lose their spells), and I could be a bit more helpful. Also, on the off chance you haven't read my Monster Handbook (link in sig), now's the time.

[killem2]

I think it was just a clear line that said they do, that was confusing me :).

Special Attacks
A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect nonethereal creatures. The ghost also gains a manifestation ability plus one to three other special attacks as described below. The save DC against a special attack is equal to 10 + ½ ghost’s HD + ghost’s Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.

I was not thinking magic spells were special attacks.


But if it is just applied on top of him, that makes it sooo much easier to understand :).

[limejuicepowder]

That depends on how strictly you read the ghost rules. Specifically, the part about items, which goes something like "The ghost has all of the items he had at death, but if the items are moved, the ghostly counterparts fade away. This angers the ghost, who seeks to return the items."

So by RAW, nearly all ghosts are without items, including clothes (looters being what they are). Thus, most ghosts are naked.

It would be entirely within reason to relax these rules a little bit, obviously. However, a wizard will still run in to some serious problems - depending on how you rule the above, he might not have a spellbook, and he almost definitely won't have material components. Until he takes the eschew materials feat, he'll be stuck with ghostly attacks only (and his probably low charisma score).

[killem2]

Oh man I didn't think of any of that stuff.
is there anyway to not need the spell book?

[mattie_p]

I'm aware you're using an NPC from a module, but can't you hand-wave him into a sorcerer (Did they see him prepare spells)? CHA-synergy works. Also, according the the internet, you could use Eidetic Spellcaster variant (Dragon # 357, page 89). Don't have it, don't know the wording. Spell mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellMasterySpecial) works, too.

[killem2]

Sadly, they know full well he is a wizard, however, I thought of something.


We have a wizard in our group, perhaps if they take his book, and they took have a material component pouch, could he sleight of hand stuff out of it? And during down time study the book or her book, to learn spells?

I know we'd be getting into some abilities that might not jive right with a ghost.

[Urpriest]

I think it was just a clear line that said they do, that was confusing me :).

Special Attacks
A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect nonethereal creatures. The ghost also gains a manifestation ability plus one to three other special attacks as described below. The save DC against a special attack is equal to 10 + ½ ghost’s HD + ghost’s Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.

I was not thinking magic spells were special attacks.


But if it is just applied on top of him, that makes it sooo much easier to understand :).

First of all, spells are a special attack. Look at any (pre-DMG II) NPC statblock with spellcasting, and you'll see spells in the special attacks section.

Second, even if it wasn't a special attack, it wouldn't matter. The Ghost doesn't lose traits unless the template says it does, it's applied on top of the base creature (that's kind of what templates are for). If it lost spellcasting because it wasn't a special attack, it would also lose anything else not mentioned in the template, like its height.

As for having a spellbook, if the guy has some time to gain a few levels after becoming a ghost he might pick up the ghostly grasp feat (libris mortis).

[Yuki Akuma]

There are totally ways to do without a spellbook, by the way.

You can get your spells tattooed on your skin - it doesn't even require a feat! Although good luck finding someone who can tattoo a ghost.

[limejuicepowder]

As a fellow DM, I would recommend a rule 0 - ultimately, these are annoying little speed bumps along the road to a very cool encounter. Saying that he still has access to his book is completely reasonable IMO, and waiving the material components is fine too (how much attention do you really pay to the trivial components anyways?).

If you felt like that would be unfair, you could explain it better through fluff. For starters, the guy is coming back as a ghost due to some unfinished business, right? A grudge? The level of emotion and willpower it would take to do such a thing could also be used to explain his equipment; since the character in life carried a spellbook, he kept it with him when he refused to leave the mortal plane. Adding an element of ghostliness to his spells would be prudent and flavorful, and it could be totally fluff.

-Summon spells bring forth twisted, tortured versions of the monsters that should be answering the call. A haze seems to outline their body, and their footfalls and growls are slightly muted. Unfortunately, this has not made their claws any less sharp.
-Evocations are formed of dark energy, and the faint moan of forgotten souls can be heard when the spells strike.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well considering that the way he died was being "dismembered and utterly destroyed," I am assuming that all his equipment was destroyed as well? If that is the case, you can easily get away with saying that, in a way, his equipment and his remains are in the same "place." By being destroyed together, they've become effectively inseparable. It would certainly be difficult for some other person to remove the items from his corpse if there are no items and no corpse.

[willpell]

The #1 thing that bugs me about Ghosts using the Monster Manual template is that the book says they get "one to three" ghost powers, with absolutely no indication of why a player building a ghost would even not choose to have three, just because there isn't a limit on them. The bit about their "purpose" for lingering is also painfully vague. They need clearer rules, and unfortunately Libris Mortis didn't look like much of a help. Fortunately the book Ghostwalk does go into extreme detail, plus changing ghosts from undead into outsiders (native to the Ethereal plane, more or less) is helpful to me thematically on certain levels, due to the heavy "undead = eeeevul" undercurrent in the rules, which doesn't gibe at all with the attitude of an old-school Wraith: the Oblivion fan.

[killem2]

I use the word utterly destroyed for emphasis :D. But yes, he was ripped a part, but a 6 armed beast with 9 attacks.

other than maybe his basic lab coat, all his items are still ok.

[Aasimar]

I would personally say that the ghost would refresh each day (or night) with the same spells he had prepared when he died. In order to change his spell load-out, he would have to have access to a ghostly version of his spellbook. (or a physical spellbook belonging to someone else)

[JaronK]

I was not thinking magic spells were special attacks.

They are, check a few monster entries (like the Solar).

JaronK

[ericgrau]

Ghosts live a long time and are not that detectable until they go on the offensive. Go pick up another spell book and slowly start scribing new spells.

Account for everything by giving a good chunk of game time before the ghost comes back, rather than making the haunting immediate.

Heck if she's very careful she can telekinesis-steal back her original spell book and run off with it in the night. Perhaps with any other unsecured items like whatever bag of holding it is in. If that fails she can escape through the floor. What makes this even better is that it both provides clues to the party on who the thief might be and gets them pissed off at her. Nothing gets PCs riled up more than taking their toys. When listing the missing items don't mention the spell book first. Leave it in the middle of the list so the PCs may or may not figure it out. And so that they might put it together with other clues later once the more direct attacks begin.

[sreservoir]

The #1 thing that bugs me about Ghosts using the Monster Manual template is that the book says they get "one to three" ghost powers, with absolutely no indication of why a player building a ghost would even not choose to have three, just because there isn't a limit on them. The bit about their "purpose" for lingering is also painfully vague. They need clearer rules, and unfortunately Libris Mortis didn't look like much of a help. Fortunately the book Ghostwalk does go into extreme detail, plus changing ghosts from undead into outsiders (native to the Ethereal plane, more or less) is helpful to me thematically on certain levels, due to the heavy "undead = eeeevul" undercurrent in the rules, which doesn't gibe at all with the attitude of an old-school Wraith: the Oblivion fan.

nicely enough, we have ghost savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) to fill in relevant details. (note that the web savage progressions follow their own rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) instead of savage species rule or whatever -- every version of savage progressions seems to have its own ruleset.)

applying all five levels gets you roughly the same thing as the ghost template, but the separation of "lesser" and "greater" ghost powers clears that part of it up (sort of).

there are things I can't quite agree with, but it does work. sort of.

[willpell]

nicely enough, we have ghost savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) to fill in relevant details. ... applying all five levels gets you roughly the same thing as the ghost template, but the separation of "lesser" and "greater" ghost powers clears that part of it up (sort of).

This is perfect, thank you!

[killem2]

nicely enough, we have ghost savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) to fill in relevant details. (note that the web savage progressions follow their own rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) instead of savage species rule or whatever -- every version of savage progressions seems to have its own ruleset.)

applying all five levels gets you roughly the same thing as the ghost template, but the separation of "lesser" and "greater" ghost powers clears that part of it up (sort of).

there are things I can't quite agree with, but it does work. sort of.

Ok, this is pretty sweet, Thank you. Now, when he casts his spells as a ghost, does he have to manifest for ANY spell to be seen on the material plane?

I plan on having him help, haunt, and hurt the party from time to time. Part of the reason is, he doesn't want them to die he wants to bother them, so if it helps the party to take down some big nasty creature, he'll slap it with a ray of exhuastion, or maybe throw up a wind wall if a archers come up on them.

While at the same time, he may just want to slam a shivering touch on the most dexterous person :). If he doesn't manifest himself, does the party ever actually see his spells if he does cast them? Even in the slightest? Like if he were to cast fireball while on the ethereal plane, does it show its self bursting in the given area but doing no damage?

[Yuki Akuma]

Force effects work from the Ethereal. Other spells require him to manifest in the Material, otherwise their effects would simply appear in the Ethereal Plane.

Taking the Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat would let him cast spells from the Ethereal to the Material, however. In this case, the effects of the spell would simply appear in the Material Plane from his general direction (as locations in the Ethereal and Material correspond 1:1).

(The text of the feat actually just says you can affect things in the Ethereal from the Material, but it's not exactly a huge leap to assume it can work the other way.)

[killem2]

So lets say I cast a [Force] spell, and that spell was, oh I don't know, Floating Disk. As a ghost, does it just appear in the material plane, but to everyone else it just looks like a floating disk (because it is following the ghost who has not yet manifested).

And what about things like shield or mage armor? Does that appear with out giving away the fact that there may be someone else there?

[Yuki Akuma]

The Floating Disc would exist on both planes at once, and would follow you around. Those on the Material would just see the disc.

Mage Armor and Shield are invisible, aren't they?

[killem2]

The Floating Disc would exist on both planes at once, and would follow you around. Those on the Material would just see the disc.

Mage Armor and Shield are invisible, aren't they?

Well damn, I guess they are, I thought it left an aura. That works and is good news, will make for great events in the future :).


EDIT: Hmm... While I was waiting for a response, I was in the middle of reading about the Ethereal plane..


The Ethereal Plane

The Ethereal Plane is coexistent with the Material Plane and often other planes as well. The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane, but it appears muted and indistinct, its colors blurring into each other and its edges turning fuzzy.

While it is possible to see into the Material Plane from the Ethereal Plane, the Ethereal Plane is usually invisible to those on the Material Plane. Normally, creatures on the Ethereal Plane cannot attack creatures on the Material Plane, and vice versa. A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane.

The Ethereal Plane is mostly empty of structures and impediments. However, the plane has its own inhabitants. Some of these are other ethereal travelers, but the ghosts found here pose a particular peril to those who walk the fog.

It has the following traits.

No gravity.
Alterable morphic. The plane contains little to alter, however.
Mildly neutral-aligned.
Normal magic. Spells function normally on the Ethereal Plane, though they do not cross into the Material Plane.

The only exceptions are spells and spell-like abilities that have the force descriptor and abjuration spells that affect ethereal beings. Spellcasters on the Material Plane must have some way to detect foes on the Ethereal Plane before targeting them with force-based spells, of course. While it’s possible to hit ethereal enemies with a force spell cast on the Material Plane, the reverse isn’t possible. No magical attacks cross from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane, including force attacks.


This is saying the opposite. Sorry, I wasn't intending to get an answer and retort, it just happened, the SRD is making it sound like even force spells from the ethereal plane, do anything different.

Looks like that feat you suggested is the only solution.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Wait what?

...Wow, sorry. My memory's terrible it seems.

[killem2]

...Wait what?

...Wow, sorry. My memory's terrible it seems.

Its ok :(. I am not happy I found the SRD entry. I don't really understand how someone in the ethereal plane can see stuff on the material plane, but can't target it with force magic.

[ericgrau]

Light goes from material to ethereal but not vis versa.

[killem2]

Light goes from material to ethereal but not vis versa.

but the transdimensional spell metamagic feat makes that possible?

[Wookie-ranger]

but the transdimensional spell metamagic feat makes that possible?

by RAW: no. The feat only talks about from the Material Plane to the Ethereal (among others), but makes no mention that the reverse is true too.

By Logic: It should.

As a DM i MIGHT allow this feat to work, but only if the campaign/party is pretty high in power. This would make a ghost incredibly strong, as it could just spam spells while most things on the material plane don't even know that there is an enemy there, and even if they detect you (or simply target the point where the spells come from) there is not much they can do.


Also on a fun note. By RAW, the transdimensional spell metamagic feat does not hit ghosts that are not manifested.



Such creatures include ethereal creatures, creatures that are blinking or shadow walking, manifested ghosts, and creatures within the extradimensional space of a rope trick or portable hole.

The mention of manifested ghosts makes no real sense, as the feat alowes you to target all ethereal beings anyway, but it is a basis for an argument.

[TuggyNE]

Also on a fun note. By RAW, the transdimensional spell metamagic feat does not hit ghosts that are not manifested.



The mention of manifested ghosts makes no real sense, as the feat alowes you to target all ethereal beings anyway, but it is a basis for an argument.

The usual meaning of incorporeal is that the creature is entirely on the Material Plane, but is less material than normal, so it could easily confuse people into thinking they couldn't target manifested ghosts with Transdimensional Spell unless they put that note in. Since a non-manifested ghost is very definitely on the Ethereal Plane, there is no RAW argument at all for saying a non-manifested ghost can't be targeted. (Of course, technically a manifested ghost is partly on the Ethereal Plane as well, so the note was probably unnecessary, but attempting to derive negative inferences from clarifications is a bad idea.)

[willpell]

Well damn, I guess they are, I thought it left an aura. That works and is good news, will make for great events in the future :).

There would be an aura for Detect Magic purposes, just not a visible one. You may have been thinking of the psionic power Inertial Armor, which has the option to be visible or invisible as preferred.

[Yuki Akuma]

As you're the DM, you could just houserule it that force spells go both ways - although if you decide to do that I'd be upfront with your players about it. And let them take advantage of it.

[Wookie-ranger]

I might be playing a ghost character in an upcoming game, so this thread is very interesting to me.


How does 'turn undead' affect ghosts?
When they manifest is there still the 50% chance of not affecting him?
Can they be affected when they are on the ethereal plane?

[killem2]

As you're the DM, you could just houserule it that force spells go both ways - although if you decide to do that I'd be upfront with your players about it. And let them take advantage of it.

I could, but I think I will just stick to the rules and cause as much mischief as I can with in the rules.

[willpell]

How does 'turn undead' affect ghosts?

The same way that it affects any other undead with the same effective HD. A ghost's 4 Turn Resistance means that its HD is treated as being 4 higher than it actually is for Turn/Rebuke purposes. So a level 1 fighter dies and rises as a 1-HD zombie, he can be turned/rebuked by a level 1 Cleric or destroyed/commanded by a level 2 cleric. But if he rises as a 1-hD ghost instead, a cleric must have 5 levels to turn/rebuke him, and 10 levels to destroy/command him. And those are of course the minimal values; a ghost with 7 HD can never be destroyed/commanded except by an epic cleric (or someone with a trick up their sleeve, such as the Sun domain).


When they manifest is there still the 50% chance of not affecting him?

The text about incorporeality states "except clerical energy", which is what this means.


Can they be affected when they are on the ethereal plane?

That I'm not sure on.

[Wookie-ranger]

That I'm not sure on.

Yeah, that is a though one.
DM is not sure either. We will probably rule that it will only affect things on the material plane.
Logic being, that the area of a turn attempt dos not include thing that are blocked (no line of effect). Since material plane cover does not work on the ethereal plane it is logical to assume that there is no material to ethereal turning.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, that is a though one.
DM is not sure either. We will probably rule that it will only affect things on the material plane.
Logic being, that the area of a turn attempt dos not include thing that are blocked (no line of effect). Since material plane cover does not work on the ethereal plane it is logical to assume that there is no material to ethereal turning.

The Ethereal Plane description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#theEtherealPlane) only mentions spells that can cross, specifically force and certain abjurations. However, it's pretty clear that creatures on the Ethereal Plane don't have total cover, since if they did no spell would ever been able to affect them. (They do have total concealment, since they're invisible and incorporeal.)

So I think you're right, but for the wrong reasons.

[Artillery]

The current party I am adventuring with has a ghost.
Its ECL 6, with 2 levels of druid. They aren't making very good use of their powers though. They have Telekinesis and Draining Touch. They only really use Draining Touch. I want to get them to start using their telekinesis for interesting ways to solve problems in and out of combat.

They can lift up to 12 objects totaling 300lb up to 980ft. They haven't done anything with it. I am going to just carry around a quiver of arrows so they can do an easy 12d4 dmg with BAB+CHA to hit, so currently +4.
They could do amazing things using Combat Manuevers though; bullrush, grapple, disarm, or trip; with a modifier of +15. That is as good as a tripper of our level, and that is for all of those. They can do it every 1d4 rounds too.