Xervous
2012-12-24, 04:12 PM
Disclaimer
There will be errors, erroneous statements, and things just plain stupid or wrong in the following. I'm just thinking 'out loud', and hoping what I put down makes enough sense to be understood as right or wrong.
End dislcaimer
Tangent explanation:
So, I was just wandering around in my tattered old MM and I came across Lycanthropes... I noticed how it said they apply the effective "racial" modifiers of the base animal when in hybrid or animal form. That got me thinking "well what if they are a medium humanoid who turns into a huge* dire arsepunter, but they want to halt the transformation at a hybrid point that is only large...? So what portion of a monster's 'racial ability bonuses' are actually racial and not just size?"
* as urpriest pointed out, no such thing could exist, as lycanthropes' forms are within one size category of one another respectively.
From there, my thoughts wandered to dragons...
Actual topic start:
So, What exactly is a dragon's approximate STR adjustment from its nature as a dragon, disregarding its size (using the adjustments from the SRD, as the values differ highly between different spells...)
Avoiding Confusion 1: Ability score mods disregard size, however for this I will be comparing creatures to the average value for a medium creature adjusted to the same size as the creature to be compared.
credit: Lateral
Lets go with the black dragon, which is supposedly one of the 'weaker' breeds of dragons.
Small black wyrmling: 13 str, 10 dex, 13 con
average values for a small creature, 6 str, 12 dex, 8 con
so a small black wymrling has, as relative adjustments (lower even numbers when applicable). + 6 str, -2 dex, + 4 con
+6 str, now that sounds like a strong creature for its size. Now lets take a look at say, a large adult black dragon.
large adult black: 23 str, 10 dex, 19 con
average values for a large creature: 18 str, 8 dex, 14 con
relative adjustment: +4 str, +2 dex, +4 con
huh, its getting weaker, but more dextrous? Ok, lets look at a nasty gargantuan great wyrm black
G GW black: 37 str, 10 dex, 27 con
average gargantuan creature: 34 str, 6 dex, 26 con
relative adjustment: +2 Str, +4 dex
strange, isn't it? Big ol blackie is definitely a strong flying lizard, with 37 STR, but for his size, thats just a +2 from average, a far cry from the +6 he had when he was stealing farmer's sheep for his meals. He's stayed at the same dexterity all his life, but he is effectively more dexterous in his later years because the penalties of his size do not show through. Also, his constitution bonuses have evaporated over the years, again relative to the average for his size
Repeating this exercise with other dragons yields similar results, effective str bonuses start high and diminish, con mods start high and evaporate, and the dragons' effective dexterity mods improve as they get older. So, one could venture to say that this suggests that dragons become "less strong" "less healthy of body" and "more dexterous" as they age, of course relative to the assumed norms for each size category.
Now lets take a look at other creatures that advance in size by HD
Umber hulk (don't sue me, its not on the SRD)
Large -> huge
large umber hulk: 23 str, 13 dex, 19 con
average large: 18 str, 8 dex, 14 con
net ability score adjust: +4 str, + 4 dex, + 4 con
huge umber hulk: 36 str, 10 dex, 29 con
average huge: 26 str, 6 dex, 18 con
net adjust: + 10 str, + 4 dex, + 10 con
well then, there's another oddity. it gets even stronger as it gets bigger, again, relative to its size
Comparing large/huge umber hulk and gargantuan black dragon of equal STR to determine the effect of a difference in size
Now, this is only comparing raw str scores against average values for each respective size category. This method of examination does not take into account the difference between a 36 STR huge umber hulk and a 36 STR gargantuan black dragon. One is clearly very strong for its size while the other is not far off from the average. However the simple discrepancy in size carries a bunch of 'hidden' benefits that add another dimension to this.
the AC, natural armor, and attack modifiers that are effected by size changes shall be ignored for this examination.
The 36 str gargantuan black dragon can carry twice the weight that the 36 str huge umber hulk can. So a simple mathematical argument could be made using this data that "the dragon is twice as strong as the umber hulk, by merit of its size"
Now lets take a look at an opposed str check, for this example let us consider a trip attempt. As their str scores are the same, the only differentiating factor is their size modifier to the check. The gargantuan dragon nets a +12 from its size, while the umber hulk gets a +8 (disregarding the +4 from having more than two legs as both of them qualify)
The dragon would win 280 / 400 of all combinations of opposed rolls, or 70%
while the umber hulk would win 120/400, 30%
from this we may state that the size advantage possessed by the dragon causes it to be a little more than twice as likely to win an opposed trip attempt against the umber hulk.
Just for curiosity's sake, lets see what the number are if the dragon doesn't automatically win ties by virtue of its higher modifier. 16 instances would then lead to a reroll. so...
dragon wins 264 / 384 68.75%
umber hulk wins 120 / 384 31.25%
so this yields little difference, still tending around slightly more than a 2:1 ratio.
a 36 str large umber hulk would carry 1/4 as much as a gargantuan 36 str dragon.
opposed trip checks of 36 str: large umber hulk, gargantuan dragon
dragon wins 334/400 83.5%
hulk wins 66/400 16.5%
5:1 ~ ratio
rerolling ties instead
dragon wins 320/388 82.47%
hulk wins 66/388 17.53%
4.7:1 ~ ratio
Now I have decided against comparing the dragon's natural weapons to pretty much anything, since...
1. The umber hulk that we've been using has oversized claws
2. There are numerous differing progression tables for weapon damage values. Some specifically for progressing monsters in general (which don't agree with the dragon), some that deal with bite progression (which agrees with the dragons), and those for weapons (which don't agree with the dragon), I assume this is the case of specific beats general, and man is it annoying how much specific trumping general seerap there is in the size department.
for funsies, here's the big bad tarrasque compared to the averages.
Colossal tarrasque: 45 str, 16 dex, 35 con
averages for Clssl: 42 str, 6 dex, 26 con
effective adjust: +2 str, +10 dex, +8 con
so big T is just above average for strength, is ridiculously dextrous for his size, and is (like we didn't know already) very durable even for his size.
So, what do you guys think? Any other avenues we should stroll down? Anywhere I went wrong? Comments, concerns, exclamations?
There will be errors, erroneous statements, and things just plain stupid or wrong in the following. I'm just thinking 'out loud', and hoping what I put down makes enough sense to be understood as right or wrong.
End dislcaimer
Tangent explanation:
So, I was just wandering around in my tattered old MM and I came across Lycanthropes... I noticed how it said they apply the effective "racial" modifiers of the base animal when in hybrid or animal form. That got me thinking "well what if they are a medium humanoid who turns into a huge* dire arsepunter, but they want to halt the transformation at a hybrid point that is only large...? So what portion of a monster's 'racial ability bonuses' are actually racial and not just size?"
* as urpriest pointed out, no such thing could exist, as lycanthropes' forms are within one size category of one another respectively.
From there, my thoughts wandered to dragons...
Actual topic start:
So, What exactly is a dragon's approximate STR adjustment from its nature as a dragon, disregarding its size (using the adjustments from the SRD, as the values differ highly between different spells...)
Avoiding Confusion 1: Ability score mods disregard size, however for this I will be comparing creatures to the average value for a medium creature adjusted to the same size as the creature to be compared.
credit: Lateral
Lets go with the black dragon, which is supposedly one of the 'weaker' breeds of dragons.
Small black wyrmling: 13 str, 10 dex, 13 con
average values for a small creature, 6 str, 12 dex, 8 con
so a small black wymrling has, as relative adjustments (lower even numbers when applicable). + 6 str, -2 dex, + 4 con
+6 str, now that sounds like a strong creature for its size. Now lets take a look at say, a large adult black dragon.
large adult black: 23 str, 10 dex, 19 con
average values for a large creature: 18 str, 8 dex, 14 con
relative adjustment: +4 str, +2 dex, +4 con
huh, its getting weaker, but more dextrous? Ok, lets look at a nasty gargantuan great wyrm black
G GW black: 37 str, 10 dex, 27 con
average gargantuan creature: 34 str, 6 dex, 26 con
relative adjustment: +2 Str, +4 dex
strange, isn't it? Big ol blackie is definitely a strong flying lizard, with 37 STR, but for his size, thats just a +2 from average, a far cry from the +6 he had when he was stealing farmer's sheep for his meals. He's stayed at the same dexterity all his life, but he is effectively more dexterous in his later years because the penalties of his size do not show through. Also, his constitution bonuses have evaporated over the years, again relative to the average for his size
Repeating this exercise with other dragons yields similar results, effective str bonuses start high and diminish, con mods start high and evaporate, and the dragons' effective dexterity mods improve as they get older. So, one could venture to say that this suggests that dragons become "less strong" "less healthy of body" and "more dexterous" as they age, of course relative to the assumed norms for each size category.
Now lets take a look at other creatures that advance in size by HD
Umber hulk (don't sue me, its not on the SRD)
Large -> huge
large umber hulk: 23 str, 13 dex, 19 con
average large: 18 str, 8 dex, 14 con
net ability score adjust: +4 str, + 4 dex, + 4 con
huge umber hulk: 36 str, 10 dex, 29 con
average huge: 26 str, 6 dex, 18 con
net adjust: + 10 str, + 4 dex, + 10 con
well then, there's another oddity. it gets even stronger as it gets bigger, again, relative to its size
Comparing large/huge umber hulk and gargantuan black dragon of equal STR to determine the effect of a difference in size
Now, this is only comparing raw str scores against average values for each respective size category. This method of examination does not take into account the difference between a 36 STR huge umber hulk and a 36 STR gargantuan black dragon. One is clearly very strong for its size while the other is not far off from the average. However the simple discrepancy in size carries a bunch of 'hidden' benefits that add another dimension to this.
the AC, natural armor, and attack modifiers that are effected by size changes shall be ignored for this examination.
The 36 str gargantuan black dragon can carry twice the weight that the 36 str huge umber hulk can. So a simple mathematical argument could be made using this data that "the dragon is twice as strong as the umber hulk, by merit of its size"
Now lets take a look at an opposed str check, for this example let us consider a trip attempt. As their str scores are the same, the only differentiating factor is their size modifier to the check. The gargantuan dragon nets a +12 from its size, while the umber hulk gets a +8 (disregarding the +4 from having more than two legs as both of them qualify)
The dragon would win 280 / 400 of all combinations of opposed rolls, or 70%
while the umber hulk would win 120/400, 30%
from this we may state that the size advantage possessed by the dragon causes it to be a little more than twice as likely to win an opposed trip attempt against the umber hulk.
Just for curiosity's sake, lets see what the number are if the dragon doesn't automatically win ties by virtue of its higher modifier. 16 instances would then lead to a reroll. so...
dragon wins 264 / 384 68.75%
umber hulk wins 120 / 384 31.25%
so this yields little difference, still tending around slightly more than a 2:1 ratio.
a 36 str large umber hulk would carry 1/4 as much as a gargantuan 36 str dragon.
opposed trip checks of 36 str: large umber hulk, gargantuan dragon
dragon wins 334/400 83.5%
hulk wins 66/400 16.5%
5:1 ~ ratio
rerolling ties instead
dragon wins 320/388 82.47%
hulk wins 66/388 17.53%
4.7:1 ~ ratio
Now I have decided against comparing the dragon's natural weapons to pretty much anything, since...
1. The umber hulk that we've been using has oversized claws
2. There are numerous differing progression tables for weapon damage values. Some specifically for progressing monsters in general (which don't agree with the dragon), some that deal with bite progression (which agrees with the dragons), and those for weapons (which don't agree with the dragon), I assume this is the case of specific beats general, and man is it annoying how much specific trumping general seerap there is in the size department.
for funsies, here's the big bad tarrasque compared to the averages.
Colossal tarrasque: 45 str, 16 dex, 35 con
averages for Clssl: 42 str, 6 dex, 26 con
effective adjust: +2 str, +10 dex, +8 con
so big T is just above average for strength, is ridiculously dextrous for his size, and is (like we didn't know already) very durable even for his size.
So, what do you guys think? Any other avenues we should stroll down? Anywhere I went wrong? Comments, concerns, exclamations?