[PF] Core-only Blaster Sorcerer (no APG)

[Larpus]

As the title said, soon I'll be joining a group which will be using only the Pathfinder CRB, no 3.5, no APG, no nothing, just CRB.

The rest of the group consists of a Barbarian, a Monk, a Ranger and a control Wizard, I have zero intention of playing a healer, so I decided to try a blaster-focused Sorc, which is something that has been itching me to try for some time now (not going to do just blasting, will have some control spells to help the Wizard, blasting is just the main thing I'll be doing).

So...I gather that the best way to do such a thing is to be Draconic Bloodline (Red or Golden) and use Empowered Maximized Scorching Rays/Fireballs (depending on whether it's a single target or crowd) together with a Quicken Rod later on?

Is there anything I'm missing? (yes, I do plan to grab Spell Focus and Penetration)

EDIT: Also open to other options for "blasty magic man", other than Druid (DM vetoed the class), I'm listening.

[Juntao112]

Pick up Pyrotechnics and a bullseye lantern.

[Psyren]

I personally think Arcane or Elemental are better blasting choices than Draconic. Draconic's one "blasty" ability is the breath weapon, which is too few/day to really build around. Meanwhile, Arcane's abillity to add metamagic without increasing the casting time is very potent for blasting (as it lets you stack metamagic), and School Power on Evocation or Conjuration will let you pump up your blasts even further. Elemental meanwhile gives you a scaling ray of your energy type usable many times/day, an area nuke, and energy resistance to help you target these.

[Corlindale]

You take Draconic for the extra damage Arcana, not for the breath weapon. It's a solid choice for a blaster, though arcane isn't bad either. Elemental is a little underwhelming, though - the ray is a joke past the low levels, and instead of energy substitution you might just pick spells of various elements.

I'm not sure I would focus on Fire if going draconic. At least be mindful of resistances, and make sure you have other offensive options among your spells.

Stacking Maximize and Empower doesn't work all that well, because of how the spells interact. In any case you can't use both before very late in the game. Empower is usually considered slightly superior to Maximize.

[KutuluKultist]

I recommend the Orc bloodline. The rage spell and ability are a great debuff against casters.

[Corlindale]

Orc isn't a core bloodline, and the rage spell only works on willing targets anyway, and is thus useless for caster debuffing.

[Karoht]

Toppling Spell + Magic Missile, and use Trait shenannigans to make it still cost you a first level slot. It's a level 1 trick that can carry you rather far.

Blasty Sorc Bloodlines?
Yeah, Draconic or Elemental are your top two. Dual-Bloodline really isn't worth it (and it's in APG I think).

Acid Arrow is a Conjuration spell. Ranged touch, SR = No. Every Blasty Sorc should have this as a backup, especially if you take an Elemental Bloodline to change the type.

Elemental Spell is in APG if I remember correctly, you might try talking your DM into letting that one slide. If you want raw power and numbers to back up your blasty, Draconic is pretty awesome. If the DM will allow Elemental Spell (even if it only comes from a metamagic rod), then stick with Draconic. If not, go Elemental to ensure you have the needed flexibility. Most of your damage will be elemental (Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid) which tend to be very easy to counter with resistances/immunities.

Another option to consider. Build for Sonic damage? Easily negated with a Silence, harder to negate with resistances/immunity. I don't think there is a good Bloodline for that though.

Arcane Bloodline is my favorite Bloodline, especially at low level.

Best of luck, let us know how it turns out.

[ericgrau]

Be a half-orc for bonus damage on your fire spells as your favored class bonus. Unless that's only in the APG? I forgot. Take either bloodline for extra fire damage. True some things are fire resistant, but even then you'll often break even on damage compared to other elements. And that's uncommon. Immunity is even more rare. Do prepare a backup energy type or two but focus on fireballing. Earlier on flaming sphere is an awesome spell, especially after PF boosted it. If you're starting at later levels or expect a nice long campaign then you can double up on your empower for empowered false life and empowered enervation. Later on, but not early, get magic missile as lesser reliable backup damage when all else fails.

Since selective spell requires the advanced player's guide, pick of protection from energy and maybe resist energy, plus two lesser rods of extend spell. Tag your entire party with fire protection. Now you can hit many more foes in the blast without hurting allies and effectively double your damage output. Rods of quicken are nice too but way too expensive. Maybe you could save up all you can for a quicken rod but you'll probably need the feat. Or get both.

Black tentacles is a great control spell to combo with blasting because it will trap enemies without taking damage from your fireballs. Earlier on web combines very well with flaming sphere for extra damage. Much later on delayed blast fireball combos very well with time stop. You might look into chain lighting as a second spell for selective many target blasting after your party's fire protection runs out. If you're taking greater spell focus (evocation) anyway then resilient sphere is perhaps the best save or lose there is, because on average reflex is the lowest and immunities to it are rare. Lastly wall of force and solid fog are a couple of the best battlefield control spells. They have little to do with blasting, but if you're being selective about your control spells and only want a couple besides web and black tentacles then there you go.

[Blyte]

my condolences for having to play core only.

when PF was young, I remember playing an elemental air sorcerer who did pretty well.. but the DM was allowing me to use 3.5 spells on a case by case basis and I cheesed him with electric loop stunning.

I am not sure if elemental spell focus is core, but I had a nasty DC for my spells, with spell focus + elemental spell focus stacking.

also the 'elemental body' is a nifty ability for flying around, and you don't need wild spell, because elementals have speech.

[Larpus]

Thanks all for the replies, great food for thought.

And yes, I'm aware that core-only isn't the best when it comes to much optimization, seeing as most of the best options are at least in APG (half orc favored bonus, dazing spell metamagic, pyromaniac gnome, etc).


Pick up Pyrotechnics and a bullseye lantern.
Good idea, will definitely do so.

I was a bit saddened that Spark + Pyrotechnics (it'll be a jungle-heavy campaign, so lots of flammable stuffs) would be a no-go as Spark's in APG.


I personally think Arcane or Elemental are better blasting choices than Draconic. Draconic's one "blasty" ability is the breath weapon, which is too few/day to really build around. Meanwhile, Arcane's abillity to add metamagic without increasing the casting time is very potent for blasting (as it lets you stack metamagic), and School Power on Evocation or Conjuration will let you pump up your blasts even further. Elemental meanwhile gives you a scaling ray of your energy type usable many times/day, an area nuke, and energy resistance to help you target these.
As mentioned, Draconic was brought up due to the arcana alone , which is great for blasting (it also has a decent enough spell list, with wanted spells).

That said, Arcane is indeed another bloodline I was thinking about, on blasting numbers alone, Draconic wins hands down, but on the whole package (utility, extra DC, spell list and so on), I'm really not that certain.

Game will start at level 2 and go as far as possible tho, which is why I wasn't truly thinking about School Power (too big of a chance I'll never see it).

Elemental's arcana and resist are really neat, but the problem of the bloodline is the spell list, which is pretty meh except for Scorching Ray, Protection from Energy and maybe one Elemental Body (if the DM rules that I can cast in such form).

Burning hands is good damage, but I know the DM likes to attack casters who dare to stay too close to action and more Elemental Bodies are really redundant, different Form of Dragon at least are a bit more bang for buck and there is one less of those.

Still an option, definitely due to allowing me to actually deal damage in case we find too many creatures with fire resistance (with fire spells usually being the ones that deal greater damage). Will certainly make a sample build to see if saved slots due to element are as plenty as 'lost


I'm not sure I would focus on Fire if going draconic. At least be mindful of resistances, and make sure you have other offensive options among your spells.

Stacking Maximize and Empower doesn't work all that well, because of how the spells interact. In any case you can't use both before very late in the game. Empower is usually considered slightly superior to Maximize.
Game will start at level 2, so on a quick look at available spells, only Fire is abundant enough for the arcana to be of true use early on with Scorching Ray (single target) and Fireball (AoE), acid has Acid Arrow and that's it (it's not even that many dice for the arcana to truly kick in), electricity doesn't start until Lightning Bolt (which is more of single target with chance for crowd than truly AoE) and cold is the worst only truly starting with Cone of Cold, which is 5th level.

But yes, I'm still wondering over Draconic vs. Arcane on the overall, mentioned Draconic mostly due to it being the most powerful on numbers with only blasting in mind.

And yes, I'll definitely grab Empower before, 1 less spell level increase (useful earlier) and on average it means +50% spell power, while maximize is closer to 40% increase while also costing one more level.

I'm still considering to actually get Maximized, on one hand it allows me to, at level 14, cast 2 Empowered Maximized Scorching Rays (Quickened through a lesser rod) for 72+6d6 vs. 14d6 of a Delayed Blast or ongoing effect of a Scouring Winds or Mage's Sword (without considering Draconic arcana).

That said, the -5 in DC surely will hurt, so I still have to number crunch to see if against creatures of that level it still has a decent enough chance of working.

KutuluKultist and Karoht...

Most of those ideas are from APG and beyond, so it's a no go. I'll try to cry a bit and get either Elemental or Dazing Spell, but I prefer to not count on it.


Acid Arrow is a Conjuration spell. Ranged touch, SR = No. Every Blasty Sorc should have this as a backup, especially if you take an Elemental Bloodline to change the type.

Elemental Spell is in APG if I remember correctly, you might try talking your DM into letting that one slide. If you want raw power and numbers to back up your blasty, Draconic is pretty awesome. If the DM will allow Elemental Spell (even if it only comes from a metamagic rod), then stick with Draconic. If not, go Elemental to ensure you have the needed flexibility. Most of your damage will be elemental (Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid) which tend to be very easy to counter with resistances/immunities.

Another option to consider. Build for Sonic damage? Easily negated with a Silence, harder to negate with resistances/immunity. I don't think there is a good Bloodline for that though.

Arcane Bloodline is my favorite Bloodline, especially at low level.

Best of luck, let us know how it turns out.
Yes, I do plan on having other energy types (such as the mentioned Acid Arrow), the focus on fire will be mostly if going Draconic, an Arcane bloodline (which is my other option) doesn't have to be so loyal, though I still think that damage alone fire still wins (in this case, choice will depend on campaign monsters).

I gave my opinions on Elemental above, didn't really cross my mind due to sucky spell list, but looking again, it deserves at least a sample build to see if elemental versatility isn't enough to justify (also have to chekc if Elementals can gesture, that would be aces).

I do have to ask: how to build a Sorcerer for sonic damage? Don't remember seeing any truly remarkable sonic spell.


Take either bloodline for extra fire damage. True some things are fire resistant, but even then you'll often break even on damage compared to other elements. And that's uncommon. Immunity is even more rare. Do prepare a backup energy type or two but focus on fireballing. Earlier on flaming sphere is an awesome spell, especially after PF boosted it. If you're starting at later levels or expect a nice long campaign then you can double up on your empower for empowered false life and empowered enervation. Later on, but not early, get magic missile as lesser reliable backup damage when all else fails.

Since selective spell requires the advanced player's guide, pick of protection from energy and maybe resist energy, plus two lesser rods of extend spell. Tag your entire party with fire protection. Now you can hit many more foes in the blast without hurting allies and effectively double your damage output. Rods of quicken are nice too but way too expensive. Maybe you could save up all you can for a quicken rod but you'll probably need the feat. Or get both.

Black tentacles is a great control spell to combo with blasting because it will trap enemies without taking damage from your fireballs. Earlier on web combines very well with flaming sphere for extra damage. Much later on delayed blast fireball combos very well with time stop. You might look into chain lighting as a second spell for selective many target blasting after your party's fire protection runs out. If you're taking greater spell focus (evocation) anyway then resilient sphere is perhaps the best save or lose there is, because on average reflex is the lowest and immunities to it are rare. Lastly wall of force and solid fog are a couple of the best battlefield control spells. They have little to do with blasting, but if you're being selective about your control spells and only want a couple besides web and black tentacles then there you go.
Starting at level 2, so yes, I do plan to get Flaming Sphere early on (and I'm pretty sure it can be used as a source for Pyrotechnics) and then drop it at around level 8.

That said, isn't Web too troublesome to use? Never really tried the spell, but every single spell guide says so. I'll check against some maps of older campaigns that were left in my home to draw my own conclusions, but I'm interested in others opinions.

The stack resistance on melee guys and AoE like no tomorrow isn't something I had thought of, great way to deal with lack of Selective Spell, and will save me the need to know any single target spells other than Scorching Ray (which deals good damage), will definitely take a look to see how feasible of a strategy that is.

And yes, Black Tentacles and Resilient Sphere will be on my list with no doubts.


my condolences for having to play core only.

when PF was young, I remember playing an elemental air sorcerer who did pretty well.. but the DM was allowing me to use 3.5 spells on a case by case basis and I cheesed him with electric loop stunning.

I am not sure if elemental spell focus is core, but I had a nasty DC for my spells, with spell focus + elemental spell focus stacking.

also the 'elemental body' is a nifty ability for flying around, and you don't need wild spell, because elementals have speech.
Thanks.

I'll face it as a challenge, other than Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric, I think I've done all I could with Pathfinder CRB, which is why I decided to go with this.

Well, the mention of "elemental schools" is from APG, but that's not too crazy, so I'll ask the DM to see if I could get Spell Focus (fire) or something.

[ericgrau]

Web is one of the best control spells there is and it's available at a mere level 2 when almost everything else is suck. You do need two opposing surfaces to set it up, but if you're in a dungeon or you're in trees or if you're in anything except bare featureless terrain it's pretty common. As long as you have a backup tactic it's a superb spell. Simply get flaming sphere first and web 2nd.

Don't be too afraid of fire resistant foes. Even if they are very common, which would be strange btw, after that -10 damage you'll still come out ahead compared to, as you noticed, your other almost nonexistent options. I once had a fire mage in a demon campaign and with my high base damage plus damage buffs I didn't even blink. Focus your build on your main tactic, fire, not your backup tactics. Do have backups but don't focus on them.

If your campaign is in fact staged entirely on the fiery volcano of elemental burnination then I would go with electricity as a 2nd choice. With the way line spells work you can actually hit two adjacent foes with lightning bolt since it hits all foes on both sides of the line. Later on chain lightning is pretty nice. You'd suffer levels 2-5 but there is shocking grasp which has decent early damage. Then you grab toughness, mage armor and false life to survive melee. Heck carry a few 25 gp scrolls of shield in case you get a buffing round. But otherwise don't waste time on shield, which is also why I wouldn't put it on your known list.

If the campaign gets into level 15+ then you can grab archmage to change your energy types and to shape your spells to avoid your allies.

[jaybird]

Are the Wildblooded bloodlines in APG? If they're core, try Crossblooded Draconic/Primal for extra blastyness on your spells.

[Edenbeast]

Are the Wildblooded bloodlines in APG? If they're core, try Crossblooded Draconic/Primal for extra blastyness on your spells.

Unfortunately Crossblooded and Wildblooded are from Ultimate Magic..

[AttilaTheGeek]

Toppling Spell + Magic Missile, and use Trait shenannigans to make it still cost you a first level slot. It's a level 1 trick that can carry you rather far.

Agreed, especially if you have a bunch of melee in the party.


Acid Arrow is a Conjuration spell. Ranged touch, SR = No. Every Blasty Sorc should have this as a backup, especially if you take an Elemental Bloodline to change the type.

Actually, the math dissagrees. Acid Arrow does 2d4*(CL/3) on a ranged touch attack, which averages to 2*2.5= 5 damage per 3 caster levels. Scorching Ray does 4d6 on the same ranged touch attack, averaging to 4*3.5= 14 damage, plus another 4d6 every four levels after that. For Acid Arrow to outdamage Scorching Ray, it would have to last 3 rounds, meaning you'd be at CL 9- by which point you'd already have another ray. Acid Arrow's continuous damage and SR: No help against enemy casters, but Scorching Ray is far more powerful in terms of pure damage.

[Karoht]

Actually, the math dissagrees.
~snip~ /Math ~Snip~
Acid Arrow's continuous damage and SR: No help against enemy casters, but Scorching Ray is far more powerful in terms of pure damage.
I actually said 'as backup' not as competition/replacement for [insert spell].
Acid Arrow can also be cast into/through an Anti-Magic Field. Something often overlooked.

*Related Anecdote*
I've noticed that Spell Resistance is a lot more relevant in Pathfinder than it was in 3.5, and is it just me, or is Spell Resistance on a lot more of the monsters these days?
SR 25 is actually quite the pain in the butt to get around until you are Level 10 plus, or until you have the Spell Penetration feats and maybe Piercing Spell Metamagic. Even SR 15 can be quite the annoyance if your D20 decides it doesn't like you that day.
So the value of 'SR: No' type spells has really gone up as a result.
Unfortunately, just about all the best Blasty spells, especially Core spells, are SR: Yes.
A friend of mine rather enjoys playing his Blasty Sorcerers. Scorching Ray is his Bread and Butter. But that pesky spell resistance? Even with the Spell Penetration feats and Piercing Spell, it stops him cold, rather often at that.

[ericgrau]

Even if you fail half of your SR checks acid arrow still does less damage though. I'd put it at a 7th or 8th choice rather than a 2nd choice as a backup. I ran into foes like that in Pathfinder and our solution was to buff the snot out of the melee since PF has a crazy amount of options for that now as 3.5 already had a bunch and they added more. Between 3 casters in a large party I think we were up to a +8 at one point in addition to damage, extra attacks, other status effects and so on. The dwarf fighter went rawr smash. Other SR no spells are handy too, like most of the control spells. For the OP I'd fall back on SR:no spells that he already has anyway like resilient sphere and black tentacles. I assume the other caster has haste, but if not the OP can get that too.

[Larpus]

Yeah, I have no idea how bad or good is the SR going to be, all I know is that the campaign will be (at least for starters) rather poor on humanoids, focusing mostly on animals and magical beasts.

That said, I do plan to get the Spell Penetration feat (and possibly the upgrade if I can fit it), it really sucks to spend a round doing absolutely nothing because the dices didn't like you this round, really the part I like the least about D&D combat, how binary it is (except when you hit, then it's all shades of suck on a normal day).

[Karoht]

Yeah, Spell Penetration and Greater are mostly going to be required. You can reasonably put off getting Spell Pen Greater until you get your 3rd or 5th level feats. Piercing Spell is sadly from Ultimate Magic.
That's about the sum total of options for beating SR for Core.

Your best bets from here on are to choose spells very carefully.
SR: NO spells are good, certain buff spells might make good choices.

Summons are almost always awesome (Spell Focus Conjuration + Augment Summons are very efficient), and don't forget that Summons come with Spell Like Abilities, most of which can and will compliment you or open up other tactical options. Mephits, Shadow Demons, and Babau's are personal favorites of mine. Wolves for bite + trip attempts, Mephits for free Lightning Bolts, Acid Arrows, Scorching Rays and a few others, Shadow Demons for their Incorporiality and Deeper Darkness, Babau's for their at will Dispel Magic (so summon up 1D4 +1 of them for 1D4 +1 chances per round to counterspell or remove buffs), and Dire Lions to rip people's faces off with.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXTPH3JxSDD6n0a0dS8eywpQ3we09d_ToBWaL1yphBk/edit?pli=1
That link will take you to an easy reference list of SLA's that your various summons can use. I remember reading that for Sorcerers, due to the limited spell list, it is most efficient for them to take Summon Monster 2, 3, 5, 7, with 8 or 9 as maybe's. I could possibly be remembering those numbers wrong though.

Cheers.

EDIT:
Odd question, what allignment do you plan on taking?
I might have a plan.
Nevermind. I greatly mis-remembered something.

[Larpus]

Indeed, I do plan on having buffs, SR:No controls and SR:No blasting just in case.

Augment Summoning is something I'm trying to fit in my build (rather, the fact that it costs 2 feats is being tough to fit), but I haven't been able to contact the local Wizard to check if he's planning to get Craft Wondrous Item (with that gone, it's a non-issue), seeing as we most probably won't have a magic shop (or guaranteed access to one), it might mean that I'll have to cram the feat in my build (and he being a Conjurer, he's already planning to get Augment Summoning and all that, so I'm ok with helping behind the scenes instead of being redundant).

Also skipping SMI anyway, that one sucks, especially given the duration, will most probably buy a wand later, to disarm traps and torture when bored.

Also, thanks for the link, I was actually trying to find that one.

[ericgrau]

Better if the wizard does the crafting because he can switch his spells back and forth. A lot of the pre-req spells are lousy to prepare. Or does PF still let you get pre-req spells from other casters like 3.5 does?

[Larpus]

As far as I remember, it allows you to.

You can also use scrolls/wands, but yeah, if I end up with the feat, I expect the stinking Wizard to sit pretty by my side until I need him.