NPC Expert Optimization

[Story]

Say you have a VoP Monk in a group that thinks VoP and monks are overpowered, and you want to build a NPC Expert to overshadow them, just to prove a point. The monk roled high on multiple stats so they appear halfway competent, but are otherwise presumably unoptimized, since the build was done by a player who thinks monks are good.

What build would you use at low levels, mid levels, etc? Obviously, you need to put max ranks in UMD and get a bunch of good wands, along with stuff like Ijatsu Focus, but what is the full build? At what level do you start appearing noticeably more powerful or versatile than the unoptimized monk? At low levels, VoP is actually pretty good, and you won't be able to afford much equipment yet.

*Note that this really is a hypothetical situation. I'm just curious how a demonstration like this would go in real life.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), half-humans variant (RoD p150), Expert 20
Ability scores: Dex > Con > Cha minimum 15 > Str > Wis > Int

Max ranks in Slight of Hand, Intimidate, Iaijutsu Focus, and Bluff 5 for synergy. Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive are pretty good.
Skill tricks (CS): Hidden Blade, Never Outnumbered.

Two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), Shaky and Weak Will.
Alternate cost feats: Menacing Demeanor and Iron Will both via the Otyugh Hole (CS).
TWF, Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Skill Focus: Intimidate (1st), EWP: Gnome Quickrazor (RoS) (3rd), Quick Draw (6th), Imperious Command (DotU) (9th), Improved TWF (12th), Flick of the Wrist (15th), Greater TWF (18th).

Gear:
+1 Fearsome (DotU) Mithral Breastplate asap.
Two +1 Gnome Quickrazors, upgrade with Speed and Spell Storing*.
Healing Belt (MIC) in the early/mid levels, replace with a Belt of Battle (MIC).
Shax's Indispensable Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101).
Necessary Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851).
Fill in the rest from the Bargain Basement (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0).
Marbles, stored in folded squares of cloth rather than bags so they're released when dropped, readied as weaponlike objects.
*NPC spellcasting: Haunting Tune (SC).

Tactics:
1st round: Move to opponent and attack activating Dreadful Wrath, if they're not flat-footed use Hidden Blade or Flick of the Wrist.
2nd round: Quick-draw marbles, drop in an adjacent square (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#dropanItem), full attack your balancing and likely flat-footed opponent with TWF. Dreadful Wrath activates if it hadn't already.
3rd+ round: Repeat 1st round if no opponents are adjacent, repeat 2nd round if adjacent to an opponent.

If you have Fearsome armor with a Belt of Battle, use one charge to demoralize your opponent(s) via Intimidate, using Never Outnumbered if able/optimal. Ideally opponents are Shaken from Dreadful Wrath, Intimidate makes them Cower for one round and then they're escalated to Frightened for the remainder of Dreadful Wrath's duration, so you should only need to do this once per encounter.

If an opponent has 5+ ranks in Balance or is otherwise not flat-footed from the marbles (Uncanny Dodge is still flat-footed, it just removes most of the drawbacks), you can spend a move action to Intimidate them and make a single attack, possibly using Hidden Blade and/or Flick of the Wrist to still get IF on a few attacks. They'll be cowering for one round and Shaken (-2 to checks) the next round when you Intimidate them again, thus increasing the chances that they never stop cowering.

[Twilightwyrm]

With respect, I'm not sure such a build will convince a monk enthusiast of Experts superiority to monks (mostly because they are strictly not), principally for two reasons: the Monk could do more or less the exact same thing, and second because all you are really doing here is proving the ineffectiveness of VoP in comparison to proper gear. While this might well convince him that maybe all those arcane material things are more important after all, this only succeed in making the person feel that they were accidentally holding themselves back, rather than convincing them that the expert is any better.
So in essence it really depends on what you are trying to convince them of with such a build: that VoP sucks, that the monk sucks, or both at once? Because while this build will likely demonstrate the first of these (but then again, so would a properly built monk), it will not work for the other two, and I'm afraid you'll likely need another class to handle that (although it would be mostly illusory, Adept could do the trick. You know, if you want to pound your point home with NPC classes).

[Lonely Tylenol]

With respect, I'm not sure such a build will convince a monk enthusiast of Experts superiority to monks (mostly because they are strictly not), principally for two reasons: the Monk could do more or less the exact same thing, and second because all you are really doing here is proving the ineffectiveness of VoP in comparison to proper gear. While this might well convince him that maybe all those arcane material things are more important after all, this only succeed in making the person feel that they were accidentally holding themselves back, rather than convincing them that the expert is any better.
So in essence it really depends on what you are trying to convince them of with such a build: that VoP sucks, that the monk sucks, or both at once? Because while this build will likely demonstrate the first of these (but then again, so would a properly built monk), it will not work for the other two, and I'm afraid you'll likely need another class to handle that (although it would be mostly illusory, Adept could do the trick. You know, if you want to pound your point home with NPC classes).

Incorporate Handle Animal.

Suddenly, the Expert is doing something that the Monk cannot.

Really, Biffonacious_Furiou hit on everything that I would have said, except I would have placed a greater focus on INT and used the open skill set a little more liberally. For instance, there's no reason this particular Expert shouldn't have a pack of trained hydras (DC 45-52 Handle Animal check) to do most of his clean-up work, or a contingent squad of phase wasps (DC 42 Handle Animal) for scouting and early response. A corollax or two (DC 23 Handle Animal) is a must-have for low-level Experts.

[Matticussama]

Is the whole group low optimization, or is the monk the only low OP character?

From what you started off with, it sounds like the whole group is low OP. If that is true, then let the player enjoy his VoP monk. In a low level party where Fighters are holding their own and the Wizard thinks that Magic Missile is the best spell ever, the VoP Monk can just sit back and enjoy the game. Unless the other players are optimized, there is no need to try and force the player to drop his class & feat just because it is a weak option.

If the monk is the only low OP character, then the party itself will show the player the error of his ways. Even ignoring the power of spellcasters, which the monk could never match, he will see other melee players with UMD or other classes out performing him and make him want to change his mind. It is my experience that this is the best way to go about getting someone to change their character. You can try to explain why in the long term it isn't good, but intentionally creating an NPC just to out-shine the player isn't likely to provoke a good reaction. At best they'll be embarrassed, at worst they'll get angry. YMMV, but this is just my own experience.

[Story]

While this might well convince him that maybe all those arcane material things are more important after all, this only succeed in making the person feel that they were accidentally holding themselves back, rather than convincing them that the expert is any better.

The monk doesn't get Handle Animal, Iajitsu Focus, or Use Magic Device as class skills. So it really couldn't do this.

[Phelix-Mu]

If the monk is the only low OP character, then the party itself will show the player the error of his ways. Even ignoring the power of spellcasters, which the monk could never match, he will see other melee players with UMD or other classes out performing him and make him want to change his mind. It is my experience that this is the best way to go about getting someone to change their character. You can try to explain why in the long term it isn't good, but intentionally creating an NPC just to out-shine the player isn't likely to provoke a good reaction. At best they'll be embarrassed, at worst they'll get angry. YMMV, but this is just my own experience.

I'll ditto to this. VoP is weak optimization, but it can be lots of fun for role play. If the player is enjoying playing a hobo monk, let the player do it. If the player is not holding their own in combat, then that is mostly something for either the player or the party as a whole to address. As a DM, you should peg challenges that assume a more-or-less uniform level of power among group members, and avoid trying to micromanage the PCs with tailored npcs.

The best lesson to teach someone a character build is sub-par is for him/her to get humiliated/killed in regular combat, not to suck against someone specifically designed to make them suck; every character build sucks against an opponent specifically designed to exploit its weaknesses.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=380814 Laahhh

To make rules-legal, make it level 6, Get EWP Gnomish Quickrazor at level 3, Knowledge Devotion at level 6, and something (say, Hidden Talent?) to go with the Education feat at level 1. Make sure to leverage UMD a lot!

Also:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9602.msg324498#msg324498

Take some ideas from that! The Partially Charged Wands and Dorjes are more of a joke, btw...

Also, if you want to do this at higher levels... Ride in on a pet Roc!

[Story]

Is there anything that could be done with the Handle Humanoid skill?

Also, like I said, this is a hypothetical situation, not something I'm actually planning to do.

[Kazyan]

Is there anything that could be done with the Handle Humanoid skill?

Also, like I said, this is a hypothetical situation, not something I'm actually planning to do.

If you're a Tibbit, you can use it. Handle Humanoid lets you "push" humanoids into doing tricks, and it doesn't allow a save. Therefore, you can basically puppet NPCs if you can pump your modifier enough.