contingency Teleport

[DrDeth]

If you have Contingency set to T-port you to safe place, can you take others along with you, assuming they are touching?

[BowStreetRunner]

The problem you run into here is that "The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time." So the teleport must be cast when the contingency is set, and all decisions (targets & destination) must be made at that time. You would have to touch the other target creatures while setting up the contingency, and couldn't change your choices when it actually went off.

So to answer your question directly - yes you can take others along with you, as long as they were touching when you originally cast the contingency and teleport and you included them as targets of the spell at that time.

[Toliudar]

I don't see why not. You're still the target of the spell.

[Wookie-ranger]

The problem you run into here is that "The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time." So the teleport must be cast when the contingency is set, and all decisions (targets & destination) must be made at that time. You would have to touch the other target creatures while setting up the contingency, and couldn't change your choices when it actually went off.

So to answer your question directly - yes you can take others along with you, as long as they were touching when you originally cast the contingency and teleport and you included them as targets of the spell at that time.

Well. That is wort of right.
But That would mean at if person A would hold hands with person B while casting the contingency and the Teleport (*) and then go both go on adventuring, have fun, loot stuff and so on. The contingency is never triggered though.
Eventually they both get tiered of adventuring. They settle down in completely areas of the world. life goes on.
Then, one day, something happens and the Contingency Teleport is triggered teleporting BOTH to that save location (which may or may not be save anymore)
Sounds like a fun hook for my party!

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't see why not. You're still the target of the spell.


Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

Indeed you are. As are any objects you touch or willing creatures you touch when you cast the spell.

[BowStreetRunner]

Here is an example of how this would work.

Magnus is a 12th level Wizard. He casts Contingency with Teleport, specifying that if his hit points fall below halfway the Teleport will be triggered. When he casts the spells he targets himself along with Thagg the Barbarian and Sir Douglas the Knight and sets Castle Black as the destination of the teleport.

Later that day, Magnus, Thagg and Douglas go into the lair of a group of trolls and do battle with them. The battle goes well and Magnus never takes damage great enough to trigger the Contingency.

A few days later, while Thagg is having a few drinks down at the tavern and Douglas is training in the barracks, Magnus is ambushed by a group of thieves and his hit points drop to less than halfway. The contingency triggers and Magnus, Thagg and Douglas are all transported to Castle Black.

A few considerations worth noting:
The duration on the Contingency is 1 day per level until discharged. So if Magnus had been attacked several weeks after the battle with the trolls, the spell would have worn off by then.
The duration on the associated spell starts when the contingency is discharged. So if Magnus had cast an Overland Flight on himself instead of a Teleport, it wouldn't matter that days might have passed since the Overland Flight had been cast - it's duration would be measured only once it was triggered by the Contingency.
The Contingency may be Dismissed if the caster wants to make sure it can no longer go off. So if Magnus wanted to make sure that Thagg and Douglas wouldn't be pulled to Castle Black with him after the battle with the trolls, he could have Dismissed the original and set a new Contingency-Teleport that only affected him.

[DrDeth]

Interesting.

[Diarmuid]

If you begin casting a spell, and the targets of the spell become unavailable...the spell is still cast and the effect simply doesnt happen.

I would think that you could indeed touch others and target them during the casting of the teleport and the contingency, but if they were not also touching you when the contingency is triggered, they're not coming with you.

[Toliudar]

Stuff

Except that the text of the Contingency doesn't actually specify that all decisions related to the companion spell have to be made at the time that contingency is cast. I would argue that a spell's details are determined at the end of casting, not the beginning. If I cast a Summon Monster spell, do I have to decide what creature I'm summoning, and where, at the time that I start casting? Or can I wait until the final moment before the spell takes effect?

I can't find RAW on this either way. Anyone?

[Deophaun]

I can't find RAW on this either way. Anyone?
SRD Time!

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
So it seems that you are (somewhat) correct. Who you are teleporting and where you are teleporting to is determined when the teleport goes off, not when the spell is included in the contingency.

[Vahktang]

SRD Time!
So it seems that you are (somewhat) correct. Who you are teleporting and where you are teleporting to is determined when the teleport goes off, not when the spell is included in the contingency.
The effect of the spell is instantaneous, with no time to set any conditions.
The spell can come into effect when the caster is unconscious or even dead,
when it is impossible to set any conditions.
The examples given, in the PHB and in module, is that the second spell cast is now only personal, and that you only effect yourself.
Sorry Thagg and Sir Douglas. I'll form a new party and get your remains and raise you.

[Deophaun]

The effect of the spell is instantaneous, with no time to set any conditions.
How much time does it take to set a condition? If conditions are set when spells take effect, as RAW states, does that not mean that you can never set conditions for any instantaneous spell, like lightning bolt or fireball? Do these things go off in random directions when you cast them, or do they just fizzle entirely?

The spell can come into effect when the caster is unconscious or even dead, when it is impossible to set any conditions.
How so? What action is it to set a condition that precludes doing so when unconscious or dead? Do you have a RAW citation here?

The examples given, in the PHB and in module, is that the second spell cast is now only personal, and that you only effect yourself.
The examples given in the PHB also are only for water breathing or feather fall, so I guess you can't use it for teleport then. I didn't know examples were exhaustive lists of possible applications, but I have now been educated otherwise. Thank you.

[TuggyNE]

How so? What action is it to set a condition that precludes doing so when unconscious or dead? Do you have a RAW citation here?

It's reasonable that a teleport triggered on dropping to negative HP would have trouble specifying any other targets; however, this doesn't preclude using it under other circumstances with different triggers. As long as you can touch the other targets, you should be able to pull this off, I'd say.

[Deophaun]

It's reasonable that a teleport triggered on dropping to negative HP would have trouble specifying any other targets;
If they are touching you when the spell triggers, they can be specified just as you can specify a destination, dead or not. The problem with the teleport contingency is that, no matter how it's triggered, other creatures have to be touching you when it goes off, not when the spell is cast. Teleport is just not a good spell for a contingent party bug-out.

[Vahktang]

How much time does it take to set a condition?

Longer than instantaneously.Longer than immediatly.



If conditions are set when spells take effect, as RAW states,

Yes, exactly, conditions are set after the 10 minute+ casting time of Contingency.



How so? What action is it to set a condition that precludes doing so when unconscious or dead? Do you have a RAW citation here?

You are quite right, I cannot cite a RAW. I see nothing in the glossary that says one cannot say, communicate to you party how you died (or went unconscious) after you have done so. Or set a condition for a spell for that matter. Or take 10 standard actions, then a move, than a 5' step
By a similiar search I could not find a 'Use Common Sense' Rule, but I believe that it would be called for when one is dead or unconscious.



The examples given in the PHB also are only for water breathing or feather fall, so I guess you can't use it for teleport then. I didn't know examples were exhaustive lists of possible applications, but I have now been educated otherwise. Thank you.
You're welcome.
And examples in module don't lend itself to an interpretation that the spell is suited for allies, either.
If you can find a module where the contingency may be or is used to help caster and allies, please cite.


If they are touching you when the spell triggers, they can be specified just as you can specify a destination, dead or not.
But one cannot specify much of anything when one is dead.

[Deophaun]

Longer than instantaneously.Longer than immediatly.So, fireballs are randomly targeted, then? Interesting.

Yes, exactly, conditions are set after the 10 minute+ casting time of Contingency.Where do you see this? Is this errata? The spell rules are quite specific: conditions are set when the spell takes effect, not at the end of casting. I've provided a citation, have you? No? Why not?

[KillianHawkeye]

Instantaneous only means that the magic does not persist once the effect occurs. It happens and then it is done.

It does NOT mean that it happens so fast that you don't have enough time to make whatever decisions are necessary to properly use the spell.

[DrDeth]

One thing is that a lot of people get (justifiably to start) hung up on dictionary or IRL definitions of words. “Instantaneous”= “I do not think that word means what you think it means”. “Pinpoint” is another one, where in the game it mean you know about where someone is (within a 5’ area), not exactly.

This causes lots of arguments.

[Vahktang]

Instantaneous only means that the magic does not persist once the effect occurs. It happens and then it is done.

It does NOT mean that it happens so fast that you don't have enough time to make whatever decisions are necessary to properly use the spell.
Aha, that's where you people are coming from:
Duration: Instantaneous, a la Wall of Stone, right?
Good point.
But not the point in Contingency, which has a duration of 1 day/caster level,
The Contingent spell comes into effect in a little special way:


In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur.

So the second spell is not cast it is "cast".
Therefore, no time to set conditions.
Now, immediatly does show up several times in the PHB, Detect Scrying, Goodberry, etc, none of which suggests one has time to think, become aware, yes, make a thought, no. More like an automatic reaction, touching a hot stove and lifting one's hand, no real thought involved.

Finally, since the second spell can be "cast" when one is dead or unconscious and everybody probably thinks that one cannot think when one is dead or uncounscious (possibly excepting Deophaun, correct me if I wrong) then conditions cannot be set at that point. Since conditions cannot be set at that point, they must be set elsewhen, at the end of the casting, when the effects of the Contingency spell take effect, per SRD time.
Another example of effects occuring at end of casting would be Guards and Wards.


In addition, you can place your choice
of one of the following five magical effects.

Spell comes into effect at the end of the casting time, at which point one sets one of the five effects.

And all this gets away from the original point:

Is the second spell in Contingency personal only?
I can hardly believe that this has not come up in errata or FAQ.
(subject drift in a online thread. That's a first)

[Deophaun]

So the second spell is not cast it is "cast".
Therefore, no time to set conditions.
What does a spell being cast or not have to do with setting conditions? Show me where it says that all spells have their conditions set when cast. I have shown where the rules say that conditions are set when the spell takes effect, it is now your job, as the person disagreeing, to show how this general rule is wrong and has been corrected via errata.

Finally, since the second spell can be "cast" when one is dead or unconscious and everybody probably thinks that one cannot think when one is dead or uncounscious (possibly excepting Deophaun, correct me if I wrong) then conditions cannot be set at that point.
Please cite the rule that says you have to be able to think to set conditions. Better yet, cite the rule that says what action setting a condition is. You have six choices: multi-round (such as the casting time for Awaken), full-round (summon monster, full attack), standard, move, free (includes swift and immediate), or no action. If it's multi-round or full-round, then spellcasting is just terrible. If it's a standard action, well, it's still terrible, but once a day you can get around it with a belt of battle. If it's a move action, then that's still pretty bad: you can't move and cast spells in the same round, as you're busy using your move action to set conditions. Free is better, as that allows most spells to work without a problem, but anything with an immediate casting time really can't be cast immediately, then, as aside from talking you can't take free actions when it's not your turn. So, that leaves it to be a no action.

Now, we know that dead bodies can decay. What action is decaying?


Since conditions cannot be set at that point
Citation, please.

they must be set elsewhen, at the end of the casting, when the effects of the Contingency spell take effect, per SRD time.
The effect of Contingency, not the spell that the Contingency triggers. That condition is set when that spell goes off. The text of Contingency says nothing about setting the conditions of the included spell during casting, so the general rule still applies, unless you can cite errata stating otherwise. If you cannot cite errata, then you have no argument, and I suggest you stop wasting bandwidth.

Another example of effects occuring at end of casting would be Guards and Wards.
Guards and Wards also has a casting time of 30 minutes, which by your logic means every spell has a casting time of 30 minutes. What Guards and Wards does is irrelevant to any spell that isn't Guards and Wards.

Is the second spell in Contingency personal only?
No, it must affect your person. So bless is a perfectly acceptable contingent spell if you find a way to cast it.

[Toliudar]

So the second spell is not cast it is "cast".
Therefore, no time to set conditions.

The logic of this is that the quotation marks denote sarcasm or irony, and therefore create the opposite meaning than the denotative meaning of the word? That seems like reaching to me. The rules are not known for saying something but meaning the opposite. If it says that the spell is cast when the contingency goes off, I'd be inclined to think that that what it means.


Finally, since the second spell can be "cast" when one is dead or unconscious and everybody probably thinks that one cannot think when one is dead or uncounscious (possibly excepting Deophaun, correct me if I wrong) then conditions cannot be set at that point. Since conditions cannot be set at that point, they must be set elsewhen, at the end of the casting, when the effects of the Contingency spell take effect, per SRD time.
Another example of effects occuring at end of casting would be Guards and Wards.

If the spell contained in the contingency is, for example, Raise Dead, then there are no choices to be made. The only valid target would be the caster, and the spell goes off. There are in fact no rules saying that conditions cannot be set when someone is unconscious. Since Contingency often involves such metagame concepts as hit points, suggesting that it is often the player rather than the character that is setting such considerations, I see no reason to make unconsciousness a bar to being able to set conditions at the end of the casting, as happens in other spells.

[Vahktang]

What does a spell being cast or not have to do with setting conditions? Show me where it says that all spells have their conditions set when cast. I have shown where the rules say that conditions are set when the spell takes effect, it is now your job, as the person disagreeing, to show how this general rule is wrong and has been corrected via errata.
You were right, conditions are set when spell takes effect, and then I gave an example of how the effect occurs after the spell is cast: Guards and Wards, which leads to the same thing in Contingency.



Please cite the rule that says you have to be able to think to set conditions.

I cannot. I also cannot cite a 'Use Common Sense" rule.
As I said above.
And a challenge for you: cite where it says magic works normally in the Prime Material Plane
As you can see, some things you just don't need to cite.



Now, we know that dead bodies can decay. What action is decaying?

Again, you're right, it's no action. Which is precisely the number of things you can do when you're dead. There's no you there anymore, you're off to an outer plane.



That condition is set when that spell goes off.

Precisely, in these cases, at the finish of casting, spell goes off, everything is set.



Guards and Wards also has a casting time of 30 minutes, which by your logic means every spell has a casting time of 30 minutes. What Guards and Wards does is irrelevant to any spell that isn't Guards and Wards.

If you got that my logic says GandW means all spells take 30 minutes to cast then I failed to convey, for which I'm sorry.
Things which are equal to the same things are equal to each other.
Euclid says this is self evident
So, since, conditions are set at the end of the casting of GandW, (when the spell takes effect) [which of the five things are to be used] then conditions are set at the end of the casting of Contingency, when the spell takes effect.
Clear as mud?



No, it must affect your person. So bless is a perfectly acceptable contingent spell if you find a way to cast it.
Yes, but is it personal only?
If your Bless goes off and you have dozens of people around you, does the Bless affect them, too, or only you.


The logic of this is that the quotation marks denote sarcasm or irony, and therefore create the opposite meaning than the denotative meaning of the word? That seems like reaching to me.

Not reaching, not going for that at all.
It denotes a special circumstance, not a casting as you are normally familiar, not a _casting_ at all. Hence the quotation marks.



I see no reason to make unconsciousness a bar to being able to set conditions at the end of the casting, as happens in other spells.
What other spells are there where an unconscious caster can set the conditions?

My position being that an uncouscious or dead caster cannot set conditions, despite there being no actual rule or errata against it.
If that is not so, then the question is already answered.

Thank you all for your continued feedback.

[TuggyNE]

RAW, it may well be possible to trigger a contingent teleport while dead and bring along anyone you like that's currently touching you (or perhaps even anyone in adjacent squares).

RACSD, I'd say that if you're dead you can't take actions, even non-actions (the term is confusing, but there it is). So teleport would default to just yourself. While unconscious is a bit trickier, but it seems needlessly nitpicky to demand that the player set up a precisely-worded condition to ensure that if they are just about to be rendered unconscious they can set off the teleport, so I'd probably let them have a bit of leeway.

And, of course, since the "effect" in question that triggers setting its conditions is the teleport effect, not the contingency effect, I can't see any reason at all to disallow someone from triggering a contingent teleport and including all allies within reach if they are still conscious.

[Deophaun]

Things which are equal to the same things are equal to each other.
Euclid says this is self evident
Euclid didn't play D&D. Additionally, if Guards and Wards has wording about this which Contingency lacks (didn't bother to read, because it's irrelevant, and I definately do not want to get into an argument about yet another spell's wording, so I'm conceding that G&W says what you think it says), then that shows that Guards and Wards is NOT equal to Contingency.

Yes, but is it personal only?
No. It will hit everyone. I don't even think bless gives you a choice in this even when you're conscious.

If you want RACSD justification: You are dealing with magic in a world where there are souls and wills independent of the body. Your body has died. Doesn't mean you cease to exist and thus can no longer interact with magical energies.

And tuggyne, if you cannot bring along touched creatures when dead because you can't set conditions, then you can't teleport at all when dead, as you need to set a destination.

[TuggyNE]

And tuggyne, if you cannot bring along touched creatures when dead because you can't set conditions, then you can't teleport at all when dead, as you need to set a destination.

Derp. Fair enough; teleport needs extra care when contingencying it to make sure it's still usable.

However, treating it like an immediate or readied action (while not, I think, actual RAW) would solve essentially all of this, at the cost of introducing certain paradoxical situations. (I.e., triggering when you're about to be killed by an attack that has hit, or about to be made unconscious, or whatever.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Has anyone considered the line in contingency that says the contingency brings the companion spell into effect? Since the contingency is bringing the spell into effect, perhaps the conditions of the companion spell are also set by the contingency itself, as per your presupplied instructions.

That is; the teleport spell's destination and targets are set at the time of casting contingency, but if you're not touching the same targets when the contingency goes off, they're not valid targets at that time and are not included.

Just a thought.

[Toliudar]

Not reaching, not going for that at all.
It denotes a special circumstance, not a casting as you are normally familiar, not a _casting_ at all. Hence the quotation marks.

That is exactly what you are suggesting. You are suggesting that a "casting" is not a casting. Hence that the quotation marks changes the meaning of the word. The only circumstances in the English language in which I can think of this being true is in the use of quotation marks to denote irony. Can you think of another?


My position being that an uncouscious or dead caster cannot set conditions, despite there being no actual rule or errata against it.

By a similar reading of Contingency, when you die you stop being a person and become a dead body. Your body is no longer you, and therefore cannot be the legal target of a contingent spell. Since we have established that setting the parameters of spell is not an action, as defined by the rules, I see no reason why an unconscious character couldn't do it.