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CowardlyPaladin
2012-12-26, 04:48 PM
I was reading this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=72264 and I realized that the D&D afterlife as written is kinda...simplistic? So I wanted to see if I could explain it better. I'm drawing mostly upon the 3.5 afterlife by the way.

Essentially this is how it works

1) When you die, your soul goes to the Fugue Plane, a sort of demiplane where your soul is taken to the City of the dead.

2) If your worshiped a God while living, your soul is judged according to that God's standards. Every god has a series of requirements, often ritual, that one must fulfill to go to his or her realm. Many of which invoke burial. For example, in my game worshipers of Tempus must die in combat, otherwise they aren't allowed to go to the afterlife, while a worshiper of Mask must have donated a proper sum to his church. Should they fail these requirments, they are condemned to go to their "Rightful" place

3) The Rightful place is one of the alignment planes, either the 9 "Core Planes" or the various mixes of planes, depending on their choices in life. So if I"m a Lawful Good Person, and I either don't worship a god, or I worshiped a non deity faith (like a philosophy or something) or I was heretical in my worship, then I am going to go to one of the Lawful Good Realms (LG, LG/NG/ LG/LN). If I am Chaotic Evil, then I worshiped Bane in the hopes that he would protect me from going to the Abyss, however I failed him (he is a fickle God) and I was rejected from his realm then i'm stuck in the Abyss.

4) Each realm treats your soul differently. In the Abyss, I am turned into a Soul Larvae, where my soul struggles to survive and by consuming other Larvae i can eventually become a full Demon and then if i'm lucky rise through the ranks to a Demon Prince (like Orcus). In Hell my memories are wiped and i'm transformed instantly into a Devil, albiet a very weak on on the totem pool . If I go to the Seven Heavens, then I don't have to transform into an Archon, I can stay around in Paradise until I get bored of Paradise and turn myself into an archon

5) Those who don't worship Gods, and instead follow philosophies, worship native spirits, worship nature itself, or worship a false God go to their AL planes instead.


This helps explain the "Problem of Evil" in D&D, why do Evil people in a world where one KNOWs what the afterlife is like ever be evil?

1) most people don't know how this system works. While people have a general idea of the planes, the average bandit doesn't know or doesn't care

2) While Absolute Good and Evil are around in D&D, not everybody knows this. Most scholars and clerics are aware of it, but a merchant who cheats people might not be aware that this is how the world works

3) The Vast Majority of Evil People worship Gods, who they believe dictate the "real" absolute morality. So if I worship Hextor, then my world view dictates that I"m not evil, but I am instead a good person protecting the world from disorder

4) Many evil people will go to the afterlives of said Gods rather than going to the Lower PLanes, and thus most mortals don't worry about "not being evil" but instead "trying to be devout".

5) Even those who do know that the Lower Planes exist don't necessarily understand how they function, i'm sure many Lower Plane beings send out massive amounts of propaganda in order to make it seem like a nicer place than it actually is

6) Many evil people believe that if they revere a Demon Lord or Archdevil their master will reward them for their faithful service and will not punish them overmuch going to hell. This is mostly foolish but hey.

7) Finally even those evil people who know full well how the Lower PLanes work might think that they are so unique that they can overcome it, that because "I" am lord Draken the Lich King, I am inherently powerful enough to rise to the top of the 9 Hells due to my uniquely brilliant mind and abilities.

8) Being Good is really really hard in D&D, and many people just fail to make the cut, Evil is Easier

9) Finally, many evil people might think that they are good. I mean Goblinslayer from the Webcomic "Goblins" clearly though of himself as the Good Guy and didn't realize that torturing Goblins to death counted as an evil action.


I hope that might clear some things up

Kaeso
2012-12-26, 06:38 PM
I think you have a good point, but while for the average bad guy lacking complete knowledge of the afterlife might be a problem, I don't think it's the problem for all evil guys. For example, a lawful evil guy won't mind starting at the bottom I think. They believe in order and discipline, and working their ways up the ranks so until they deserve to order around lower goons. On the other hand, the Chaotic Evil soul larvae struggle for survival, which fits the philosophy of Chaotic Evil: There is no good, no justice, no order, only and endless struggle for survival. Chaotic Evil characters are like this in life (look at the orcs: the only primitive "order" they have exists because one of them is just really good at punching the others in the face until they listen), thus this is also how they act in death.

I think that in DnD, the afterlife that's reserved for you is simply the one that fits you best. There isn't a "real" punishment or reward mechanism in it. This lack of a reward-punishment mechanism is probably why evil clerics remain evil, despite objectively knowing about their predestined afterlife.

AuraTwilight
2012-12-26, 06:47 PM
I was reading this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=72264 and I realized that the D&D afterlife as written is kinda...simplistic? So I wanted to see if I could explain it better. I'm drawing mostly upon the 3.5 afterlife by the way.

Um...you linked to someone's member page.


1) When you die, your soul goes to the Fugue Plane, a sort of demiplane where your soul is taken to the City of the dead.

I think this is only true in Forgotten Realms, not the standard D&D cosmology.


I think that in DnD, the afterlife that's reserved for you is simply the one that fits you best. There isn't a "real" punishment or reward mechanism in it. This lack of a reward-punishment mechanism is probably why evil clerics remain evil, despite objectively knowing about their predestined afterlife.

This, in my opinion. No actual cosmic force judges souls. The soul itself gravitates towards their deity or, if they don't have one or don't feel like they gravitate towards the plane most alike to their own spiritual nature.

LibraryOgre
2012-12-26, 06:48 PM
I think that in DnD, the afterlife that's reserved for you is simply the one that fits you best. There isn't a "real" punishment or reward mechanism in it. This lack of a reward-punishment mechanism is probably why evil clerics remain evil, despite objectively knowing about their predestined afterlife.

That's my view of it. It is not that, as a CE person, you go to the Abyss as punishment. There's no overarching power that rewards good an punishes evil.

As an evil cleric, especially, part of it is about who do you work for, and whether or not you've made yourself useful. Your deity will gain power from you, even after your death. So the goal is not, strictly, to become powerful yourself, but to make yourself useful to the deity, so that he will nominally protect you after you die, allowing you to become more useful to him.

My thoughts on the matter:

http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/37072.html

SoC175
2012-12-26, 07:04 PM
You got some things wrong:

1. The Fugue Plane is only an FR thing, only souls from worshippers of the faerunian pantheon go there

On the Fugue Plane there are three kinds of soul:

a) Souls who worshiped a deity and lived to the deity's tenets (which are not as tight as some of your examples, I haven't read ever that Tempus for example would refuse a worshiper just because he didn't die in battle, it's just seen as a glorious thing for Tempurians to do): these are called the faithful
-> These souls just wait there for a while to be picked up by one of the divine servants sent regular by the respective deities to collect these souls and bring them to their divine realms

b) Souls who worshiped a deity but did something against the tenets of their deity so that the deity refuses their soul: these are called the false.
-> These people are judged in the City of the Dead and assigned an eternal punishment

c) Souls who didn't worship a deity in live: these are called the faithless
-> these are condemned into the wall of the faithless. A otherworldly mortar is holding them in place, while they wither in agony until they are eventually dissolved

Note that if you are a false or faithless you have some last minute opportunity to do a deal with a devil to escape your eternal punishment or the wall, since it takes some time until you are judged (a faithful could also enter such a deal, but most have little reason to do so)

Also demons sometime raid the fugue plane and drag souls away (and even break them out of the wall)



For the standard D&D afterlife the fugue plane and judgment / wall of faithless part doesn't apply. A dead soul is either claimed by a deity it worshiped in live or goes to the plane that most closely matches it's respective shade of alignment

About your points for "why being evil". I think you got all possible reason nice described


That's my view of it. It is not that, as a CE person, you go to the Abyss as punishment. There's no overarching power that rewards good an punishes evil. Indeed. In D&D [Good] and [Evil] and [Chaos] and [Law] are all equally right or wrong forces. There is no higher authority declaring Good to be best and Evil to be worst, the four forces are simply equals.

The Abyss is not bad as some sort of punishment, it's just "CE goes go over there were all CE is collected" what kind of place this then turns out to be depends on how all the collected CE acts toward each other

CowardlyPaladin
2012-12-26, 07:14 PM
1) When it comes to FR, I tend to incorporate that into my game even though I don't always play FR, because I think the Gods make alot of sense in the game

2) Well, I think *Some* CE people would like the abyss and think it is a great place, but I'm sure many of them would be like "Oh god that is awful" if they knew the truth. I mean, imagine a bandit who robs travelers, rapes people and tortures them for his own amusement (I am thinking the Brave Companions from Song of Ice and Fire) wouldn't want to be subjected to endless war and struggle, part of the "fun" of being a bandit is that you fight against people who can't fight back, not against bunch of your own kind. Or a fascist character who believes in Absolute Law and order and that all dissenters should be eliminated, they might like the Idea of Hell as a place of Law, but having to be tortured and punished for centuries before they can move up the totem poll? I'd be they would be thinking "Wait, I don't get punished, those who are a threat to the state get punished, I was a good little solider". Obviously some people would be elated to understand how these evil plans work however.

LibraryOgre
2012-12-26, 07:36 PM
2) Well, I think *Some* CE people would like the abyss and think it is a great place, but I'm sure many of them would be like "Oh god that is awful" if they knew the truth. ... Obviously some people would be elated to understand how these evil plans work however.

Part of it is that people tend to overestimate their own abilities... and many people will assume that they're going to be higher on the totem pole than they actual will.

SgtCarnage92
2012-12-26, 08:58 PM
I'm not sure I agree with the statements that the lower planes aren't punishment. Much of the time the petitioners (as i recall the D&D terms for disembodied souls on their respective planes) are tortured by the denizens of those realms purely for their own sick amusement. The whole purpose of Hell was for Asmodeus to punish wrongdoers after he became to good at it as an angel. (the fact that he found out how to turn them into his own personal army is just a bonus).

I think the demonic larvae thing is accurate, however the larva has no memories of their past lives and still have to go through a great deal of pain and torment before becoming a demon (and then only by the unfathomable will of the Abyss). And if i recall devils aren't made of single souls, but a collection of souls that eventually coalesce into lemures which then can advance up the infernal hierarchy. But the petitioners are tortured to get the "soul essence" out which powers all sorts of diabolical stuff. Such as devils advancing up the hierarchy (which is a painful process for the devil involved and i believe takes the power of multiple souls to accomplish each transformation) as well as powering war-machines and whatnot.

I think that much of the reason that evil clerics stay evil is because they don't think ahead to the afterlife and they have enough hubris to believe they won't be punished as harshly for being faithful, that those denizens who rule those realms spread lies in the mortal realms to tempt those with a thirst for mortal power. There may be some protection afforded to the faithful, but in the end an evil god doesn't care about an individual soul's destiny as long as their own goals are being worked towards.

There are some that understand what will happen to them but they don't care because even in death they are contributing in some way to their lords wishes. That, and i don't think most mortals can truly fathom what it's like to have their soul tormented. (i've always imagined it as something far beyond physical torture).

GoddessSune
2012-12-26, 11:11 PM
This helps explain the "Problem of Evil" in D&D, why do Evil people in a world where one KNOWs what the afterlife is like ever be evil?

What is the problem of evil?

The Afterlife is the same for all mortals, regardless of alignment. A persons soul goes to the plane that most closely matches how they lived their life.

You should note that only Chaotic Evil people go to the Abyss where they become petitioners or manes. Larva, are the worst of the worst Neutral Evil souls, come from The Gray Waste(Hades).

Why be evil? Well, it's not like being 'good' gets some great reward...souls on Celestia become Lantern Archons. Going to Bytopia makes you a gnome and so forth.

Though if you followed a god, you will end up with them, mostly doing acts related to the gods spheres. If you worshiped Oghma, you'll be a librarian or a farmer if you followed Chantea.

SoC175
2012-12-27, 08:13 AM
I'm not sure I agree with the statements that the lower planes aren't punishment. They aren't. They are simply placing invididuals with similar worldviews together so that they can continue to celebrate their views together

are tortured by the denizens of those realms purely for their own sick amusement. That's the perogative of the dead souls to spend their time continuing to do what they enjoyed to do in live. With the added bonus to not have to deal with people with different world-views

The whole purpose of Hell was for Asmodeus to punish wrongdoers after he became to good at it as an angel. That was some sort of retcon only appearing in a single 3e book and has been ignored ever since.

Andreaz
2012-12-27, 08:47 AM
Screw justice, you're just thrown into a random god's plane!

LibraryOgre
2012-12-27, 11:59 AM
I'm not sure I agree with the statements that the lower planes aren't punishment. Much of the time the petitioners (as i recall the D&D terms for disembodied souls on their respective planes) are tortured by the denizens of those realms purely for their own sick amusement.

There's a conceptual difference, however.

The souls are tortured while they're there, but they're not sent there explicitly to be tortured. They are tortured because of where they are (the Abyss) and what they are (weak), not because someone sent them there to be tortured. It is not punishment, per se, anymore than being hungry is punishment for not eating. If they were not in the Seven Heavens, they wouldn't be tortured for being weak, but that's because of the nature of the place. If they were not weak, they would not be tortured, but that's because they'd be strong and be able to stop it (and, since they're CE, be able to torture others).

No one denies that a weak person going to the Abyss isn't going to be tortured. But it's not because an external force is punishing them... it's just where they are, and who they are.


The whole purpose of Hell was for Asmodeus to punish wrongdoers after he became to good at it as an angel. (the fact that he found out how to turn them into his own personal army is just a bonus).


I'd need a citation on this, and I suspect that if it is a D&D reference, it's a later addition (and therefore suspicious to old farts like myself).

SgtCarnage92
2012-12-27, 12:59 PM
There's a conceptual difference, however.

The souls are tortured while they're there, but they're not sent there explicitly to be tortured. They are tortured because of where they are (the Abyss) and what they are (weak), not because someone sent them there to be tortured.

Ah, that's an interpretation I can agree with. "Weak" is a pretty broad term, especially on a cosmic scale.


I'd need a citation on this, and I suspect that if it is a D&D reference, it's a later addition (and therefore suspicious to old farts like myself).

I believe it's in a blurb in the 3.5 Fiendish Codex II so you're right. I'm paraphrasing and of course how one interprets the information is up to them and how their GM wants to handle the particular world

I actually prefer Pathfinder's version of Asmodeus (making him a deity that's been around since the dawn of time) anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Traab
2012-12-27, 01:44 PM
I think the biggest source of confusion is that its hard to truly accept for most people that every god is a real actual god, who has their own set of rules, their own afterlife, and you are judged, not by whatever god the random observer worships, but by your own. Oh sure that lich necro was a living embodiment of death pain and suffering, and if he worshiped YOUR god he would be punished for all eternity. But he doesnt, he worships whatever god is out there that likes that sort of thing, so he is likely going to an afterlife where he gets his reward for faithfully following his gods tenets.

Now, I cant speak for the odds of said evil lich getting an actual afterlife reward since I honestly dont know how treacherous the evil gods tend to be. I mean, if you worship some chaotic evil god, you have to expect that your eternal judgement is likely to be fairly random based on what mood he/she/it is in when you arrive, but im pretty sure there are plenty of evil gods who will say, "You know what? You did a damn fine job of killing my rivals worshipers, spreading my faith, and following my rules. Here, have an eternal afterlife of pleasures in thanks."

Its a scary thought though isnt it? At least irl you can think to yourself, ok, that evil bastard may have had a grand old time destroying lives. But when we both die, I will go to paradise, and he will suffer forever." In D&D that evil guy may eventually die, but if he did a good job of being evil he will actually have a pretty sweet afterlife of his own to go to.

AuraTwilight
2012-12-27, 05:53 PM
Its a scary thought though isnt it? At least irl you can think to yourself, ok, that evil bastard may have had a grand old time destroying lives. But when we both die, I will go to paradise, and he will suffer forever." In D&D that evil guy may eventually die, but if he did a good job of being evil he will actually have a pretty sweet afterlife of his own to go to.

Most people don't know this though. Not even every adventurer has studied the cosmology hard enough to discern that the afterlife works this way, and even most clerics would probably hold their deity's dogma as cosmic truth. So it's not even really an issue for anyone except studious wizards and scholars, who'd just cast Trap the Soul on the jackass and throw it into a Sphere of Annihilation if they felt his afterlife rubbed them the wrong way.

Traab
2012-12-27, 07:24 PM
Most people don't know this though. Not even every adventurer has studied the cosmology hard enough to discern that the afterlife works this way, and even most clerics would probably hold their deity's dogma as cosmic truth. So it's not even really an issue for anyone except studious wizards and scholars, who'd just cast Trap the Soul on the jackass and throw it into a Sphere of Annihilation if they felt his afterlife rubbed them the wrong way.

So most people ARENT aware that all these gods both good and evil are real? Despite the existence of all sorts of magic only useable by practitioners of various faiths? I mean, it seems to me that D&D land gets a hell of alot more proof of the existence of both the divine and infernal than we do.

awa
2012-12-27, 07:37 PM
except for joe bob what is the difference between a cleric of a god and a cleric of an ideal? you can also get spells from sufficiently powerful demons and some monsters can innately cast cleric spells. The proof is certainly better but it's far from perfect.

edit also i think his point would be a bunch of peasants who worship pelor and have never met any cleric of any other god would believe that when the the cleric of pelor says do this or go to hell he believes every person not worshiping pelor is on a one way ticket to hell by virtue of worshiping the wrong god (or at least a less nice heaven depending).

LibraryOgre
2012-12-27, 08:51 PM
edit also i think his point would be a bunch of peasants who worship pelor and have never met any cleric of any other god would believe that when the the cleric of pelor says do this or go to hell he believes every person not worshiping pelor is on a one way ticket to hell by virtue of worshiping the wrong god (or at least a less nice heaven depending).

You're supposing that a dualistic "Go this or go to hell" kind of situation exists, or would even be suggested (to say nothing of the unlikelihood of only meeting a cleric of a single deity, outside of the relatively rare theocracy). I don't think it's an idea that will proliferate... you're far more likely to see "If you don't do as Pelor says, he cannot shine on your final journey."

awa
2012-12-27, 09:30 PM
i'm not saying that i was saying that i think that was what a previous poster was trying to say.

Personally i think it might be possible to see that kind of set up not with pelor (barring the burning hate) but with say a more sane loth. A deity that is absolutely dominate over one region/ race and that region/race has poor relations with any nearby neighbors of different faiths.

edit
or just isolated places in your a humble farm village in the middle of nowhere meeting any clerics might be pretty rare that's plenty of room for a priest (not necessarily a cleric) to put a lot of weird ideas in your head.

AuraTwilight
2012-12-28, 06:28 AM
So most people ARENT aware that all these gods both good and evil are real? Despite the existence of all sorts of magic only useable by practitioners of various faiths? I mean, it seems to me that D&D land gets a hell of alot more proof of the existence of both the divine and infernal than we do.

There's a large difference between "The gods exist" and "Every religion is equally valid in equal ways."

Even if we ignore that non-deity powers such as Demon lords can grant spells and effectively set up "false god" cults, there's also the entire branch of theological thought called Henotheism, which exists in real life too.

Henotheism, to put it simply, is the idea that even if other deities and pantheons exist, they are less valid than the ones the practitioner believes in, such as "Yea, your gods are real, but MINE created the universe" or "Your gods are real, but only as long as you believe in them!" "My gods are the only ones that can give you salvation", etc.

And...again, the random dirt farming commoner isn't going to know **** about all of this. They probably can't even tell the difference between arcane and divine magic, and thus can't analyze the theological implications of an evil cleric lightning-raping them to death with the Pain-Bolts of Vecna.


i'm not saying that i was saying that i think that was what a previous poster was trying to say.

Awa, I told you this in another thread. Please don't try to interpret my words for me, you don't do it successfully. I can speak for myself, thank you.

CowardlyPaladin
2012-12-28, 06:25 PM
I actually think the hells are explicitness more punishment based, because in the Upper planes you don't instantly get turned into an archon/Eldadrin/Guardienal, you get to linger as a Petitioner and basically enjoy paradise. I mean everything I read about the Seven Heavens corresponds to how OOTS shows it and comparing that to the 9 Hells....yikes. I mean, to become an archon I first have to transcende 7 levels of paradise, while becoming a Devil indicates I need to be tortured for a certain amount of time?

Hiro Protagonest
2012-12-28, 07:46 PM
1) When it comes to FR, I tend to incorporate that into my game even though I don't always play FR, because I think the Gods make alot of sense in the game

So you like your gods to be the big bullies of the playground that is the prime material plane, who don't get along with each other but can all agree that those smaller kids need to be taught a lesson if they don't show them the proper respect? Because that's what FR gods are, especially with your houserules like "if you worship me, you must die in battle, or else you're going to be punished/stuck in the waiting room forever!".

CowardlyPaladin
2012-12-29, 01:51 AM
So you like your gods to be the big bullies of the playground that is the prime material plane, who don't get along with each other but can all agree that those smaller kids need to be taught a lesson if they don't show them the proper respect? Because that's what FR gods are, especially with your houserules like "if you worship me, you must die in battle, or else you're going to be punished/stuck in the waiting room forever!".

actually....yes that pretty much sums up how I like my gods. I picture Gods like the divine aristocracy, they can be nice, they can be mean, they can be helpful kind or cruel and malicious. However one thing they all agree one is that they are special and other poeople aren't allowed into their special club.


however as my first post indicates, I don't have the wall of the faithless, if somebody isn't "properly devout" then they are condemned...to go to what ever afterlife their AL dictates. Which for some people is literally hell, so the Gods still keep the whole "yeah we are bullies thing"

Basically in my game, Gods are a diverse and complicated bunch but...they are kinda jerks

Kaeso
2012-12-29, 10:15 PM
edit also i think his point would be a bunch of peasants who worship pelor and have never met any cleric of any other god would believe that when the the cleric of pelor says do this or go to hell he believes every person not worshiping pelor is on a one way ticket to hell by virtue of worshiping the wrong god (or at least a less nice heaven depending).

I think that cleric of Pelor would go against his own dogma by preaching such a thing. You have to remember that the deities in DnD are part of a single pantheon, and thus of a single "faith", if that word is appropriate. All nine afterlives are part of the entire dogma of the faith, so a cleric of Pelor would also follow the rest of the dogma, believe in all nine afterlives and preach of all nine (unless he's actively deceiving his followers).

To make a real life analogy, let's take the Notre Dame de Paris in France: it's a church dedicated to St. Mary, but that doesn't mean it disregards all other saints nor that it disregards Catholic theology for some Maria-esque theology. Yes, it's a bit of a crude analogy, but it's close enough.

EDIT: My analogy was just that, an analogy. I have no intention of turning this into a religious debate.

Grundy
2012-12-30, 01:38 AM
@mark hall:
Your article makes a lot of sense, and ties in and explains so many basic underlying assumptions of the whole tomb-robbing murder hobo genre. Thanks!