What does Incarnum need to put it up with the big shots?

[Zelkon]

Some of my players requested that I buff up the Meldshaping system to be on par with the rest of the party. Obviously, Totemist is fine if a bit dull (IMO), but Incarnate and Soulborn especially are in need of a hefty buff. I want to up their pure numbers, but I have a feeling that won't do what I want. Any ideas?

[Draken]

The incarnate can probably get by with nothing more than an upgrade in its basic chassis (3/4 BAB and d8 HD should do the trick), there is absolutely no reason for it to have to march around with an inferior chassis than the totemist, after all.

The soulborn needs a different meldshaping progression, with full meldshaper level (half-caster anything doesn't really work), and perhaps starting to gain soulmelds/essentia as early as level 1.

[Just to Browse]

Incarnum tried to spread itself out a lot and balance choices are variable. So what tier are you aiming for and what roles are thinking of?

[Zelkon]

Incarnum tried to spread itself out a lot and balance choices are variable. So what tier are you aiming for and what roles are thinking of?

Mid to High tier 3, with the roles they have now.

[vasharanpaladin]

Mid to High tier 3, with the roles they have now.

Only soulborn needs help there. :smallbiggrin:

[drew2u]

The biggest gripe I have with the Incarnum system are the feats that allow other classes to use meldshaping. To me, that always read like a fighter being able to cast weak sorcerer spells or a wizard being able to use a rogue's trapfinding.
The system seems to blur the line between class features and feats, making the classes less appealing than just taking a couple of feats.

[Just to Browse]

I'd say that if you just accept that 'casting' soulmelds will never truly pull their weight, then you have these problems:

Totemist is supposed to be a ball of damage, but can only build one way
Incarnate is supposed to be a tough tank, but fails to deal damage and take damage
The soulborn is stupid
Essentia available and invest-able is too small
If we do want to encourage casters, DCs need to be improved


The totemist can only be improved with extra options (which takes time), but the incarnate can be put into upper tier 3 with full BAB and d10 hit die. The soulborn can just be removed because it's a bad version of the incarnate.

Essentia investment changes to 1/3 level instead of 1/5 level, and all characters gain 2 points of essentia extra for taking a soulmelding class (this doesn't stack, no taking incarnate 1 / totemist 1 for 6 essentia :smallamused:). Finally, meldshaper level equals (meldshaping classes + 1/2 non-meldshaping classes) and DCs become 10 + 1/2 soulmelder level + ConMod.

There should be a feat for making meldshaper level equal your hit die.

[JoshuaZ]

The biggest gripe I have with the Incarnum system are the feats that allow other classes to use meldshaping. To me, that always read like a fighter being able to cast weak sorcerer spells or a wizard being able to use a rogue's trapfinding.
The system seems to blur the line between class features and feats, making the classes less appealing than just taking a couple of feats.

Maneuvers and psionics let you do this also. I actually think this is a good thing, it gives a mechanically easy way to represent dabbling, while still not being able to be as good at things as the dedicated person with class levels.

(Not answering OP's question aside from saying that I agree that soulborn is the primary one that needs stuff and that the some of the earlier suggestions are already pretty good.)

[Amnoriath]

Some of my players requested that I buff up the Meldshaping system to be on par with the rest of the party. Obviously, Totemist is fine if a bit dull (IMO), but Incarnate and Soulborn especially are in need of a hefty buff. I want to up their pure numbers, but I have a feeling that won't do what I want. Any ideas?

Actually numbers aren't the problem, except for the soulborn. An Incarnate could easily 40+ bonus to a few skills have(look up Incarnum by the numbers), more attack than full BAB classes, or 30+ bonus damage. Totemists can get pretty respectable including wrassling up a Tarrasque if the DM isn't picky about actual size.
What they need is more milestone abilities. A lot of offensive binds come first while defensive ones come later. You see while essentia investment scales with level the soulmelds and most of binds really don't. A totemist or like build will pretty much cap in power at nine(meldshaper) for double chakra or eleven(totemist) for dual bind(totem). I would also make the base essentia go up every four levels and stick another essentia boost in a feat or class to get it up to 10 at most. Alot of the Incarnum feats need some work as many of the strict fighting bonus ones can be outdone by melds.
Specifically, the Incarnate needs balancing with itself and a theme mechanic that actually makes sense with itself. As I said before in another thread the most powerful Incarnate is the one least likely to be played, Evil. The lack of BAB is negligible in the lower levels and can be fixed in the higher with the skillful weapon enchantment while having more bonus damage than a rogue can sneak attack on average. Also the aligned soulmeld clause restricts use of other melds of a different alignment not just one opposed to it. Necrocarnum had the evil descriptor so therefore evil Incarnates got more melds known while having a couple of the best in the book. The other three didn't really have unique abilities of their own only being better at something than the others, so they need their own soulmeld list that would fit their ideals. Evil maybe should be tweaked a bit more into debuffing and little less damage. Lawful should be more about immunities and ensuring good results, Good should be all about support and warding, and Chaotic should be about trickery and guerilla tactics.
The totemists really only need to have area of effect stuff buffed up other than what I mentioned before.
The Soulborn to me almost needs an entire rehaul. One, we already have an alignment themed class there isn't any need for two. Two, there isn't any class features aside from smite opposition and passing around your very specific immunity. In order to reconcile full BAB with I say the boosting of essentia and abilities should lie with one special meld an avatar that represents an historic idea or set of heroes the character tries to revere.

[RoyVG]

Soulborn is the one that is in desperate need of improvement. An Incarnum class that learn Incarnum NOT at level 1 is stupid. A Paladin (his non-Incarnum equivalent IMO) doesn't get Spell casting until level 4, but at least they aren't advertised as spellcasters. They even get a decent amount of it when they get it and they have something for any occasion, the soulborn get 1 soulmeld at level 4 and if you make the wrong choice, tough luck, deal with it. A Paladin has his Smite Evil, Lay on Hands and most of all Divine... F***ing... Grace, and more. Soulborn has... Smite 1/day as a Paladin, one immunity and an incarnum bonus feat. Most of these bonus feats need Essentia, which you don't have until level 6. Some Souldmelds don't need the essentia that much, but still, better have some than to have none? Bonus feats are nice, but not when your character can hardly use them at that point. And then there are the Chakra Binds... at level 8. No... just no. And only 3 at level 20? A Paladin who drops all of his Feats into Open X Chakra and Shape Soulmeld feats becomes almost a better Soulborn than a Soulborn.

My upgrade for the Soulborn would include, but not limited to:
- Soulmelds at level 1, or at the latest level 2. What's an incarnum class, without incarnum...
- Grant him Essentia the moment he gets his first Soulmeld.
- More Chakra binds, starting at earlier levels, and maybe even a specific Chakra bind for him alone, like a Weapon Chakra, similar to the Totem Chakra from the Totemist.
- Better Class feature overall, besides the obvious stated above.

The Incarnate is prety decent, thought it could use a little bit more diversity in his abilities. I played a Good aligned Incarnate once, and my only role in life was a meat shield, with high HP and AC. Don't forget you can UMD very effectively with Mage Spectacles and a decent Cha, making you a decent secondary caster. You have the most diverse Soulmelds, covering almost any situation you might come across. He could still use some small tweaks, like an improved HD and Medium BAB.

[sirpercival]

More options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253301)?

[Zelkon]

More options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253301)?

That's mainly just more classes. Are there any places where I can find new chakra binds and soulmelds?

[Glimbur]

I did a few for totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6321801), incarnate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6496398), and soulborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127348) (with a fix, of course). I'm not certain there is a central thread that links out to all the homebrew incarnum stuff.

[sirpercival]

There are some new soulmelds in there (new necrocarnum soulmelds, new soulmelds for the warpsoul), and I also wrote some new soulmelds for the Extractor here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14312272#post14312272).