Druid/Shaman gestalt

[Myrddin0001]

I've been planning a character for a friend's long term gestalt campaign. We are starting lvl 5 and moving on. I'd really love to play a human Druid/Shaman(Oriental Adventures, using the Dragon Magazine update to 3.5). I love the flavor and crunch, and the two seem to synergize well. Can anyone see any kinks, flaws or reasons I shouldn't pair these two?

[Spuddles]

Doubling up on wisdom casting is nice. Having virtually duplicated spell lists, saves, bab, skills, and HD is not.

I would go druid//cloistered cleric. Get knowledge domain + 2 domains, cleric spells, and six skill points/level. and of course cleric spell list. Also lets you prestige class on cleric side into stormcaster or whatever suits your fancy.

From a purely mechanical view, anyway. Druid//anything is going to be pretty damn powerful. Unless it's like warforged juggernaught or something.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

OA Shaman's animal companion is going to be completely redundant, since you can't double-up the same class feature on a gestalt character. Your spellcasting is also going to be a bit redundant, except for one domain spell per level.

What do you want this character to do?

I'd suggest starting out Druid 5// Unarmed Swordsage 2/ Cloistered Cleric 3, taking the second Unarmed Swordsage level at 4th for a 2nd level maneuver and stance. Keep Druid single-classed, pick up Divine Oracle 4 or 10, a few more Swordsage strategically placed to get specific maneuvers and stances of certain levels, and maybe Contemplative and/or Paragnostic Apostle to finish out to 20th. Say you've already visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get the feat prerequisite for Divine Oracle without having to spend a feat on it.

[Urpriest]

I'd suggest putting Wildshape Ranger on the other side from OA Shaman, since it's got the only novel thing you're getting from Druid (Wild Shape) while improving your BAB, HD, and skills. In general you don't want casting on both sides of a gestalt.

[Spuddles]

I'd suggest putting Wildshape Ranger on the other side from OA Shaman, since it's got the only novel thing you're getting from Druid (Wild Shape) while improving your BAB, HD, and skills. In general you don't want casting on both sides of a gestalt.

Speak for yourself. Double casting is amazing, especially when DMM is on the table. So many buffs!

[Darth Stabber]

Druid//totemist is great if you plan on using wildshape alot. All of your soulmelds stick around so long as you wildshape into things with at least 4 limbs. So many attacks per round that it's insane.

[JellyPooga]

The Spirit Shaman might make a better gestalt with the OA Shaman, from what I've read here, but I'm not overly familiar with the OA Shaman, so can't give a hard and fast critique why.

[Ravens_cry]

Druid//totemist is great if you plan on using wildshape alot. All of your soulmelds stick around so long as you wildshape into things with at least 4 limbs. So many attacks per round that it's insane.
That does feel fun.:smallbiggrin: It also has that good synergy of passive and active abilities that makes good gestalt.

[Myrddin0001]

Speak for yourself. Double casting is amazing, especially when DMM is on the table. So many buffs!

agreed! Wizard/Archivist is the most powerful gestalt I can think of!

Thanks everyone for the input. I see now that my previous combo would be a bit redundant. I think I'll go Druid/Cleric.

[Darth Stabber]

Speak for yourself. Double casting is amazing, especially when DMM is on the table. So many buffs!

Double casting just means your character goes to bed with more spells uncast. It seems really good in theory, but in practice the action economy will bite you in the butt. If you pick a class that uses standard actions every round (casters, psionicists, martial adepts), picking another one like that means that the two sets of class abilities will be competing. Picking a class that has mostly passive abilities, or abilities than don't use standard actions, is making the action economy work for you. Wizard//factotum is a good example, wizard spells do the heavy lifting and utilize the bulk of your standard actions, while factotum add your casting stat to everything, and you can utilize it's small number of spells to cover your banned schools. Cleric//swordsage is also generally better option if you are using DMM (also note that archivists lack turning without prcs, and DMM can't be applied arcane spells), since your spells are mostly for buffs and your combat actions are going to be spent hitting things, might as well be using stone dragon lockpick.

My handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239352) might be handy, it's not done but it covers the salient point of this conversation.

[Spuddles]

Double casting just means your character goes to bed with more spells uncast. It seems really good in theory, but in practice the action economy will bite you in the butt. If you pick a class that uses standard actions every round (casters, psionicists, martial adepts), picking another one like that means that the two sets of class abilities will be competing. Picking a class that has mostly passive abilities, or abilities than don't use standard actions, is making the action economy work for you. Wizard//factotum is a good example, wizard spells do the heavy lifting and utilize the bulk of your standard actions, while factotum add your casting stat to everything, and you can utilize it's small number of spells to cover your banned schools. Cleric//swordsage is also generally better option if you are using DMM (also note that archivists lack turning without prcs, and DMM can't be applied arcane spells), since your spells are mostly for buffs and your combat actions are going to be spent hitting things, might as well be using stone dragon lockpick.

My handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239352) might be handy, it's not done but it covers the salient point of this conversation.

If your caster is having trouble with the actuon economy, then you may want to read some handbooks about how to optimize your caster.

Wizard//factorum is cute, sure, but wizard//erudite does everything, has an incredibly disgusting number of actions per turn (familiar, psicrystal, shared schism/mental pinnacle/synchronicity, and somon) and doesn't even have to spend feats to do it.

Even with out triggering your lactose intolerance, double the quickened spells is gravy. Double buffs, friendly for the whole party. Save-or-die spam is a lot less costly against outsiders/high hd monsters. You get to prepare two utility spells a day- hello there level 9, please bring overland flight and teleport to these spell slots while I cover nuking with overchannel and psychokinetics.

What's that? Druid with immunity to all elemental damage, full BAB, pounce, in legendary ape form, with an enhancement bonus of +18 to strength, divine might to large, shillelagh spiked quarterstaff, magic vestment, girallon's blessing, deathward, with quickened mass snake swiftness? Oh hey I can maul face all day, but if I really need to solve a problem, there are holy berry bombs, firestorm, entangle, briar patch, summon nature's ally, summon monster, planar ally, summon undead (kill a tarrasque!), extended lesser creepig cold, resurgence (for those allies that follow you around), wall of thorns, blizzard, stone shape.... Dang that's so much stuff!

And thanks to having an animal companion and companion spellbound, you dump persisted/long term buffs on the both of you, have a pet ubercharger, and use the rest of your spell slots to gratuitously solve any problem.

I've played many dual casters. They are absolutely amazing- if you know how to play a caster.

[Urpriest]

What's that? Druid with immunity to all elemental damage, full BAB, pounce, in legendary ape form, with an enhancement bonus of +18 to strength, divine might to large, shillelagh spiked quarterstaff, magic vestment, girallon's blessing, deathward, with quickened mass snake swiftness? Oh hey I can maul face all day, but if I really need to solve a problem, there are holy berry bombs, firestorm, entangle, briar patch, summon nature's ally, summon monster, planar ally, summon undead (kill a tarrasque!), extended lesser creepig cold, resurgence (for those allies that follow you around), wall of thorns, blizzard, stone shape.... Dang that's so much stuff!


That all already possible with a single set of spells, though. I think you're underestimating how many spells per day casters get. All you've got going for you is versatility, and the Shaman already either gets all those spells or should get all those spells when properly updated, so that's a wash anyway. And Wild Shape can be gotten with more (non-redundant) goodies with Wild Shape Ranger.

[Darth Stabber]

If your caster is having trouble with the actuon economy, then you may want to read some handbooks about how to optimize your caster.

Wizard//factorum is cute, sure, but wizard//erudite does everything, has an incredibly disgusting number of actions per turn (familiar, psicrystal, shared schism/mental pinnacle/synchronicity, and somon) and doesn't even have to spend feats to do it.

Even with out triggering your lactose intolerance, double the quickened spells is gravy. Double buffs, friendly for the whole party. Save-or-die spam is a lot less costly against outsiders/high hd monsters. You get to prepare two utility spells a day- hello there level 9, please bring overland flight and teleport to these spell slots while I cover nuking with overchannel and psychokinetics.

True, but an ungestalted wizard already eats action economy and urinates excellence (as can most other full casters and manifesters), the point is going to bed with uncast spells/unspent pp. And factotum is free standard actions easy, without eating up spells, and is less cheesy.

Finally what is double quicken? You can't cast two quickened spells in one round. Factotum//wizard can get 3 spells off in a round (2standard, 1 quickened). Less cheese and adds your casting stat to everything.

[Spuddles]

Twice the 7th level slots means twice the quickened 3rd lvl spells.

Build a caster//chump, any level. I'll build a caster//caster. Give me 7 encounters. Let's see who finishes. I mean if you're claiming caster//castere is only good theoretically.

[JaronK]

Archivist//Factotum, though, gives you a bunch of advantages that Wizard//Archivist doesn't. Int to Initiative certainly helps a great deal, as does the extra spells per round (via Cunning Surge). And the overall flexibility goes way up. Let's face it, if one of those 7 encounters involves an actually dangerous trap where you weren't expecting it, Archivist//Factotum's going to be much better off. Plus you still get all the same spells as Archivist//Wizard, just a bit fewer of them (consider Archivist 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Archivist +14//Binder 1/Factotum 19 as a simple, brutal build if you needed more spells).

The reason Factotum works so well here is that it makes you a better caster... it just synergizes so well. It's like how Monk isn't usually that great but Monk//Druid is awesome... the synergy is what changes everything.

JaronK

[Urpriest]

Twice the 7th level slots means twice the quickened 3rd lvl spells.

Build a caster//chump, any level. I'll build a caster//caster. Give me 7 encounters. Let's see who finishes. I mean if you're claiming caster//castere is only good theoretically.

Irrelevant. There are only four encounters, less if you use Rope Trick.

[Darth Stabber]

Twice the 7th level slots means twice the quickened 3rd lvl spells.

Build a caster//chump, any level. I'll build a caster//caster. Give me 7 encounters. Let's see who finishes. I mean if you're claiming caster//castere is only good theoretically.

Where as cunning surge let's you "quicken" any spell without preparing as a quickened spell, or raising the spell level, or even having the feat quicken spell. Why have a quickened 3rd level spell, when you can get free standard actions to cast 7th level spells? (Probably would have it anyway, 3 spells per round is pretty good)

As urpriest stated, there are generally 4 encounters per day, and caster//synergistic passive class is going to offer all sorts of nice things. Plus factotum is a caster... ish, though when gestalted with wizard the best use for spells is covering weaknesses incurred from banning certain schools. If you ban enchantment, you can still grab a heroism and/or suggestion via factotum when you need them. Beyond that, you can contribute in a variety of situations without wasting spells due to skills and factotum's skill boosts. If you can make the open lock check, who needs knock, if you can disarm a trap, that is more useful than summon dead celestial monkey, since many traps can self reset. Even at higher levels you gain a lot of utility from skills that adds up. And I would happily put archivist//factotum or wizard//factotum against archivist//wizard any day.

[Tokuhara]

My calls with Druid and Gestalt:

~ Cloistered Cleric is a good choice for a "devoted" caster that plays well in the "Ironman Match" type of campaigns (Yes playground. These still exist). My favorite combination is Travel and The one that gives you Extend Spell as a bonus feat.

~ Rogue is a different dip, but can be pretty good on a Horizon Walker Druid Build//Rogue (Or Sneak Attack Fighter if you're boring)/Sneak Attack Advancing PrCs. The idea is to Wildshape into something with Pounce, then Swift Action Dimension Door behind Flanked Meathead A (you did buff before the fight, right?), charging into him, and open up the Claw/Claw/Bite routine. Now with Sneak Attack!!!

~ Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso is a scary bedfellow for Gestalt Druid. Yes, now you are slightly more MAD, but look at it in this light: Both WotC (Greenspeaker Initiate Feat & Foclucan Lyrist) and Paizo (Green Whisperer from Dragon Magazine) have made options for Druid/Bards. Now, you can be a Druid//Bard with lots of options. Very interesting on a Knack Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso//Swift Hunter Druid (trades Wildshape for other less powerful abilities including +WIS to AC and Favored Enemy).

~ In a strange twist of Fate, MONK (not swordsage) is a good and rather intersting idea for Druid. Wisdom to AC is always good, Unarmed Strike is decent, and I have only one image for you nay-sayers: A Grizzly Bear jump kicking a gnoll while his foot is on fire, howling like Bruce Lee. All Hail Fuzzy, the Hippie Kodiak Master of Kung-Fu!

[Darth Stabber]

My calls with Druid and Gestalt:
~ In a strange twist of Fate, MONK (not swordsage) is a good and rather intersting idea for Druid. Wisdom to AC is always good, Unarmed Strike is decent, and I have only one image for you nay-sayers: A Grizzly Bear jump kicking a gnoll while his foot is on fire, howling like Bruce Lee. All Hail Fuzzy, the Hippie Kodiak Master of Kung-Fu!

Swordsage still gets wisdom to ac (while in light armor as well), and the unarmed variant gets the monk unarmed damage progression (trading weapon proficencies which you get back from druid), and all of the tasty maneuvers and stances for which the class is known. I see your kungfu bear and raise you tiger claw tiger. Monk is good for certain things, but this is yet another case where he is out classed by swordsage.

[Tokuhara]

Swordsage still gets wisdom to ac (while in light armor as well), and the unarmed variant gets the monk unarmed damage progression (trading weapon proficencies which you get back from druid), and all of the tasty maneuvers and stances for which the class is known. I see your kungfu bear and raise you tiger claw tiger. Monk is good for certain things, but this is yet another case where he is out classed by swordsage.

I was trying to be unique here...

And some of the styles are great.

[Darth Stabber]

I was trying to be unique here...

And some of the styles are great.

So you think monks should come with an ironic mustache and a pair of wayfarers?

And the styles make the class dippable, not good. If you have a class that favors only one save monk is okay since swordsage only favors reflex, like wizard//monk with kung-fu genius or carmendine monk, because that is seriously good.