Perform wealth?

[HarrisonRicardo]

Yesterday I was playing my bard (yay!) and we got to this important city I can't remember it's name (but it was like the common/center neutral city that linked every plane).
The thing is that, as a bard, I used my perform skill to get some more money fo the party. (good supporting)

I used Perform and got..... 16 in dice, +2 masterwork instrument, +3 skill focus, +12 ranks +5 CHA, +5 vest of legends... and some extra buff from our cleric... And I got like a whooping 65+ in perform...

according to the PH-3.5 (http://dndtools.eu/skills/perform/): there is no chart for checks over 30.... so we decided to follow the pattern:

10 - 1d10 cp/day
15 - 1d10 sp/day
20 - 3d10 sp/day
25 - 1d6 gp/day
30 - 3d6 gp/day
35 - 1d4 pp/day
40 - 3d4 pp/day
45 - 1d3 × 10 pp/day
50 - 3d3 × 10 pp/day
55 - 1d2 × 100 pp/day
60 - 3d2 × 100 pp/day
65 - 1d1 × 1000 pp/day
70 - 3d1 × 1000 pp/day

So... we followed the patern that for every 10 points, multiply by ten the currency, every 10 points decrease the dice's ranks and for every different dice, start with a ×1 and then ×3.

Do you ever got this circumstance? Was it OK to asume that? Suggestions and corrections are always :smallsmile: accepted.

For the lolz
....After that... my party wanted to change our normal quest into a "buff the bard and get RICH" :smallbiggrin:
Oh.. and I attracted the attention of some extraplanar that was really mad at me...
Sorry for my bad English

[Ashtagon]

according to the PH-3.5 (http://dndtools.eu/skills/perform/): there is no chart for checks over 30.... so we decided to follow the pattern:


Is there a specific reason the chart should be extrapolated?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Is there a specific reason the chart should be extrapolated?

Because no sane person who can get insanely rich playing to sold-out crowds around the multiverse and retire a made man at base adventuring age +2d6 or so years would ever want to stare down death every day for the meager promise of the same?

[Ashtagon]

Because no sane person who can get insanely rich playing to sold-out crowds around the multiverse and retire a made man at base adventuring age +2d6 or so years would ever want to stare down death every day for the meager promise of the same?

That's a reason why a PC would want it extended. It's not a reason it should be extended.

[Lonely Tylenol]

That's a reason why a PC would want it extended. It's not a reason it should be extended.

Fair point.

EDIT: I've got a good reason it should:

Because the best musicians in all the land making literally epic Perform checks and still only barely scraping by, making barely enough money to cover travel costs and a decent room to stay in, and getting no more money for it than the average shmuck with a pretty haircut, feels like... Well...

Feels like being a musician in real life, really. :smallannoyed:

[ahenobarbi]

Yesterday I was playing my bard (yay!) and we got to this important city I can't remember it's name (but it was like the common/center neutral city that linked every plane).

Sounds like Sigil.


Do you ever got this circumstance? Was it OK to asume that? Suggestions and corrections are always :smallsmile: accepted.

It's cool once but I wouldn't make it a regular rule - because if you can make 300'000 gp a day (by getting 70 at the check) your character will be so rich d&d will not work.

[Deophaun]

Do you ever got this circumstance? Was it OK to asume that? Suggestions and corrections are always :smallsmile: accepted.
Don't think so, at all. If you look at the Craft skill (which can be used to break a campaign as well, but at least requires some effort and plenty of opportunity for DM intervention), you can go to the Epic Level Handbook and see that you can keep increasing the DC by 10 to speed up your crafting. If you look at the Perform skill, you can go to the Epic Level Handbook and... duplicate some functions of Diplomacy. Seems like the clear intention was not to continue the progression.

The fact that Perform scales so quickly is also a sign that the list is not to be extrapolated further. Do you really think you should be able to earn over ten thousand gold a day with a single skill check with no risk involved?

[Amphetryon]

Sounds like Sigil.



It's cool once but I wouldn't make it a regular rule - because if you can make 300'000 gp a day (by getting 70 at the check) your character will be so rich d&d will not work.

Because WBL abuse is the only way to break D&D. :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Because the best musicians in all the land making literally epic Perform checks and still only barely scraping by, making barely enough money to cover travel costs and a decent room to stay in, and getting no more money for it than the average shmuck with a pretty haircut, feels like... Well...

Feels like being a musician in real life, really. :smallannoyed:

If the best musicians in all the land making Epic Perform checks are trying to cover their living expenses by giving random performances on the street, well, perhaps they should look into getting a reliable manager/agent for themselves.

[ahenobarbi]

Because WBL abuse is the only way to break D&D. :smalltongue:

But this rule makes breaking 3.5 ridiculously easy. I have this weird feeling that you understood that this explanation is completely unnecessary.

[Amidus Drexel]

Fair point.

EDIT: I've got a good reason it should:

Because the best musicians in all the land making literally epic Perform checks and still only barely scraping by, making barely enough money to cover travel costs and a decent room to stay in, and getting no more money for it than the average shmuck with a pretty haircut, feels like... Well...

Feels like being a musician in real life, really. :smallannoyed:

They should give you extra money for playing over-produced, derivative work. :smallbiggrin:

[HarrisonRicardo]

Sounds like Sigil. :smalltongue:
Right!!! :D


The fact that Perform scales so quickly is also a sign that the list is not to be extrapolated further. Do you really think you should be able to earn over ten thousand gold a day with a single skill check with no risk involved?
Haha.... yes :D

[Slipperychicken]

One of the best violinists in the world (Joshua Bell? I think that's his name), making tons of cash in a Philharmonic and doing countless gigs besides, decided to participate in an experiment. He dressed up as a hobo and played in the DC subways. He was completely ignored, and barely made anything.

Also, your Bard can sell his spells/day according to the Spellcasting and Services table for a truly ludicrous sum which makes honest laborers cry (10xLevelxCL in gold, I think, cantrips count as 0.5). A Wizard can make his WBL in a week off that table. Even if you assume limited demand, it makes you wonder why they go adventuring at all..

[Amidus Drexel]

Also, your Bard can sell his spells/day according to the Spellcasting and Services table for a truly ludicrous sum which makes honest laborers cry (10xLevelxCL in gold, I think, cantrips count as 0.5). A Wizard can make his WBL in a week off that table. Even if you assume limited demand, it makes you wonder why they go adventuring at all..

Well, they do have to level up somehow. I don't think you can get experience from selling spells.

[Vaz]

Because there is only so much money; because certain people would see a hat loaded with gold, and walk on by... Because why do you walk past/ignore a busker however good they are?

[Deophaun]

If the best musicians in all the land making Epic Perform checks are trying to cover their living expenses by giving random performances on the street, well, perhaps they should look into getting a reliable manager/agent for themselves.
Not sure how this manager/agent would function in a world without long-distance communication, mass media, or any recorded audible medium aside from crazy expensive magic items. That pretty much rules out modern-day superstar potential. Besides, the bard is supposed to be the one setting up work by spreading the great deeds of his sponsor. If the manager is supposed to have a manager in order to manage, something has gone pear shaped, and it's not the level 12 druid.

[icefractal]

Perhaps this extrapolation is too fast, but I'd agree it should be extrapolated. A performer so amazing their music is on par with slaying titans or creating a demiplane should definitely be making more than 10gp a day!

Actually, looking at that chart, it goes down by two die sizes from d10 to d6, so the extrapolation would be:
30 - 3d6 gp/day
35 - 1d3 pp/day
40 - 3d3 pp/day
45 - 1d1 x 10 pp/day
50 - 3d1 x 10 pp/day
55 - 1d12 × 10 pp/day
60 - 3d12 × 10 pp/day
65 - 1d8 × 100 pp/day
70 - 3d8 × 100 pp/day

For the "wrap-around", I assumed that 1d1 x 10 -> 1d20 (almost the same average), and that 1d12 was two steps below 1d20 (hey, d16 is a real die).

Of course, that's assuming that you're in a large enough city to have this kind of wealth laying around. In a small town, you're lucky to get gold, much less platinum. Luckily, the OP appears to be in Sigil, where this kind of money is flowing all the time.


But back on topic - yes, this gives you potentially a lot of money. OTOH, this is 9th level - characters do have the capability to generate a lot of wealth, if that's what they care about.

Do you know how much money a 9th level Wizard could get just by selling spells for the normal market rate? No Wall of Iron production, no item crafting, no Flesh to Salt shenanigans, just by the book sales. It's around 5K gp. Of course, that's assuming he can find buyers, but again - Sigil. A 9th level Cleric has Plane Shift, which is a huge potential source of wealth, when you consider the Plane of Earth (and diamonds) alone.

So IMO, if you've got mid-level characters in Sigil, it may take more than wealth to motivate them into almost certain death. Luckily, there are a lot of other motivations out there.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, they do have to level up somehow. I don't think you can get experience from selling spells.

When I discovered that table a while back, it immediately became my Wizard's motivation: learn to cast high level spells, then retire off 3 million a year (taking weekends off, and like 4 weeks of vacation. Because he needs some time to enjoy his wealth:smallyuk:, that's why). I think my DM was actually sweating a little at the thought, but to be fair, another character got 1 million GP from the devil for his take-over-the-world fund.

[Accordion Twome]

Well it seems over powered at first look, so if you want to increase the money given from perform checks, I would personally increase the check every step up.

So instead of it going 30, 35, 40 etc. I would put it as 30, 40, 55 etc.

This would make it harder to get more money by every check, and all the more rewarding.

Maybe to get that much money from a perform check you may have do some advertising. For example, someone who was walking down the street and sees The Beatles playing, that person would probably want to see them but would not have enough money on hand, but if the same person heard that The Beatles were going to play in his town a month from now he would save up.

Of course it is up to your DM.

[sreservoir]

(hey, d16 is a real die).

nonsense. there are five real figures of dice: d4, d6, d8, d12, d20. there can be, provably, no others. d10? blasphemy! we never had d10en back in the day!

(I jest, I jest ... only partially.)

[BowStreetRunner]

If you actually break it down to the pattern in cp it would be something like this actually:

10 = 1-10 cp
15 = 10-100 cp
20 = 30-300 cp
25 = 100-600 cp
30 = 300-1800 cp
35 = 1000-3600 cp
40 = 3000-10800 cp
45 = 10000-21600 cp
50 = 30000-64800 cp

However, the real question isn't how much you could potentially earn...it's actually 'how much capacity does the audience have to spend?' that you need to determine. Sure, with the right promoter, a good sized venue, and so forth you could probably go on tour and make a mint. Just showing up in town and playing a few Inns?

I would cap it at the DC 30 result unless the PC takes steps to increase his potential crowd size.

[Arcanist]

I would cap it at the DC 30 result unless the PC takes steps to increase his potential crowd size.

With Dancing Light advertisement, Silent Image signs, Magic Mouth mailing spreading the knowledge that you exist is fairly easy :smalltongue:

[gallagher]

Well, in 2010 Bristol Palin charged between 15000 and 30,000 as her speaking fee. She is nowhere near even a level 1 bard, her perform check is crap (just ask her boyfriend) and doesnt have any buffs. I think that even a low level bard should get paid more to Perform:Oratory than Bristol Palin.

[BowStreetRunner]

With Dancing Light advertisement, Silent Image signs, Magic Mouth mailing spreading the knowledge that you exist is fairly easy :smalltongue:

Most big concerts today rely on advertising that reaches a larger audience than just the occupants of a single town or borough within a city. Print ads (newspapers, handbills, posters, mailings) will work if the populace are literate, otherwise hiring town criers will be needed. The reach of TV, Radio and Internet ads will be a little harder to duplicate.

The venue is another issue. You can either focus on getting a gig with a very rich crowd - hey, a command performance for the monarch might pay that high - or you will need a location you can really pack with customers.

[gallagher]

Most big concerts today rely on advertising that reaches a larger audience than just the occupants of a single town or borough within a city. Print ads (newspapers, handbills, posters, mailings) will work if the populace are literate, otherwise hiring town criers will be needed. The reach of TV, Radio and Internet ads will be a little harder to duplicate.

The venue is another issue. You can either focus on getting a gig with a very rich crowd - hey, a command performance for the monarch might pay that high - or you will need a location you can really pack with customers.

He is a bard, he is his own town crier. Saves money on advertising

[Metahuman1]

Personally, I don't see a problem with letting a preforming bard run around and be ye old rock star.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, in 2010 Bristol Palin charged between 15000 and 30,000 as her speaking fee. She is nowhere near even a level 1 bard, her perform check is crap (just ask her boyfriend) and doesnt have any buffs. I think that even a low level bard should get paid more to Perform:Oratory than Bristol Palin.

I think my college paid somewhere in the realm of 40,000$ for Snookie to do a speech, right after a tuition hike. Much as your Bard may deserve it, he is sadly nowhere near as famous.

Recall that 1GP is a little less than four months' wages for an untrained laborer. 3d6 gp in one day is an insane amount by those standards.

[ahenobarbi]

Personally, I don't see a problem with letting a preforming bard run around and be ye old rock star.

How about making almost as much as lvl 20 WBL with a single check?

[Metahuman1]

So he's racking up some cash to help the Melee types keep pace with the things they need and the things they want to keep pace with the magic types. :smallwink:

[HarrisonRicardo]

A support must do what a support must do :)

[TuggyNE]

One of the best violinists in the world (Joshua Bell? I think that's his name), making tons of cash in a Philharmonic and doing countless gigs besides, decided to participate in an experiment. He dressed up as a hobo and played in the DC subways. He was completely ignored, and barely made anything.

I remember that report. Interesting, pointing out that context is nearly everything. (And that people are stupid, but that's not exactly new to anyone. :smalltongue:)

[Erik Vale]

I would like to point out that DC 30 gets you extra planer attention on normal worlds. If it wasn't sigil, I would say "Your character is instantly snatched up by the gods to be one of their musicians, if not the god of music."

Given that its Sigil, it needs to be changed some, but still.

[BowStreetRunner]

I would like to point out that DC 30 gets you extra planer attention on normal worlds..."Your character is instantly snatched up by the gods to be one of their musicians..."

Extra-planar attention doesn't necessarily have to mean the gods...just ask Johnny.

"Now you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due:
I bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, 'cos I think I'm better than you."


- The Devil Went Down to Georgia, Charlie Daniels

[Amphetryon]

Extra-planar attention doesn't necessarily have to mean the gods...just ask Johnny.

"Now you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his due:
I bet a fiddle of gold against your soul, 'cos I think I'm better than you."


- The Devil Went Down to Georgia, Charlie Daniels

Things didn't turn out so badly for Johnny, though.

[Slipperychicken]

Things didn't turn out so badly for Johnny, though.

In D&D terms, a "fiddle of gold" would only involve like, 150gp of actual gold ("common musical instrument" is 3lb, gold is 50gp/lb). Even if it was masterwork, it would be worth something like 350-500gp. Even if you treated a fiddle as a weapon and used the MoF rules for Alchemical Gold, it's still only 1600gp or so.

So aside from bragging rights, Johnny didn't really get much, and risked eternal damnation.

[Amphetryon]

In D&D terms, a "fiddle of gold" would only involve like, 150gp of actual gold ("common musical instrument" is 3lb, gold is 50gp/lb). Even if it was masterwork, it would be worth something like 350-500gp. Even if you treated a fiddle as a weapon and used the MoF rules for Alchemical Gold, it's still only 1600gp or so.

So aside from bragging rights, Johnny didn't really get much, and risked eternal damnation.

In D&D terms, he got the equivalent of - by your numbers - 400ish GP for a single performance. Given that we've no information to indicate that Johnny was in any way a professional fiddler, 400gp for a single performance is pretty good without many levels in Bard. And, "risked eternal damnation" and didn't GET eternal damnation means that - as I said - things didn't turn out so badly for him.

[Erik Vale]

In D&D terms, a "fiddle of gold" would only involve like, 150gp of actual gold ("common musical instrument" is 3lb, gold is 50gp/lb). Even if it was masterwork, it would be worth something like 350-500gp. Even if you treated a fiddle as a weapon and used the MoF rules for Alchemical Gold, it's still only 1600gp or so.

So aside from bragging rights, Johnny didn't really get much, and risked eternal damnation.

Still, that's some bragging rights. Except that the devil sucks. I don't know how to play and I could probably got that.

Also, it's the devils fiddle, so it's probably magic of some variety, and their are plenty of magical instruments worth more than 1.6K in dnd.
Also, think about real life, their are wood instruments worth millions (exaggerating a little from 'from a friend who read the news, but you get my point), Prestige means a lot.

[Amidus Drexel]

Still, that's some bragging rights. Except that the devil sucks. I don't know how to play and I could probably got that.

Also, it's the devils fiddle, so it's probably magic of some variety, and their are plenty of magical instruments worth more than 1.6K in dnd.
Also, think about real life, their are wood instruments worth millions (exaggerating a little from 'from a friend who read the news, but you get my point), Prestige means a lot.

True. It's pretty hard to beat this kind of prestige.

"So, Johnny, where'd you get that shiny fiddle of yours?"
"Well, I beat the devil in a fiddling contest."

[WildPyre]

In D&D terms, a "fiddle of gold" would only involve like, 150gp of actual gold ("common musical instrument" is 3lb, gold is 50gp/lb). Even if it was masterwork, it would be worth something like 350-500gp. Even if you treated a fiddle as a weapon and used the MoF rules for Alchemical Gold, it's still only 1600gp or so.

So aside from bragging rights, Johnny didn't really get much, and risked eternal damnation.

Slight miscalculation here... a common musical instrument (as per PHB) weighs three pounds. Now if we figure that the item is made of wood and weighs three pounds, and gold weighs 21.29x more than a heavy oak... a 3 pound wooden fiddle would weigh just shy of 64 pounds and come up to 3193.5 gp worth of gold. Not counting the additional price of crafting this item since it would be a work of art more than a musical instrument.



PS: in usd at current market price $2,614,839.36

[Erik Vale]

Wow.

Someone needs to make one of those animated .gifs with words 'Get me that fiddle'.

[TuggyNE]

Also, think about real life, their are wood instruments worth millions (exaggerating a little from 'from a friend who read the news, but you get my point), Prestige means a lot.

Surprisingly, that's not an exaggeration at all; there are a number of violins worth more than a million dollars. The record is about $15.8 million.

[Erik Vale]

Well, there you go. That golden fiddle could easily be worth high end millions (considering it's actually playable and solid gold). Might even clock a billion.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, a point could be raised that Johnny might've been an NPC commoner, so another way of looking at it would be that he just made over eighty times his yearly salary in just one night.

Sadly, though, that just means he must have got jumped by bandits on the way home and lost everything just so his wealth would be on par with the rest of his friends and family.:smallfrown:

[WildPyre]

To be fair, 3 pounds is the listed weight for a generic common musical instrument... an actual fiddle weighs around one third that.

[Twilightwyrm]

As has already been mentioned on this thread, the logical reason wealth gained would not continue to be extrapolated is due to the limitations faced by the society you are in: basically, that there is no mass promotion, and you are at the mercy of whatever amount of disposable income the residents happen to have (which in a typical D&D world, isn't a whole hell of a lot). But let's put a bit of math behind it, just to clarify what exactly is going on: Your average citizen, according to the DM's Guide is anywhere between 15 cp to 2 gp per day, with few exceptions. Unskilled labor, which much of the population may well be, pays a simple 2 sp per day. So, say with a performance check of 30 you gain 3d6, or on average 10-11 gp per day, meaning you got the equivalent to the days work of 50-60 people. Their entire day's work. (Now this conversion is starting to make sense, if you compare how much many performers make verses how much your average person makes per day of work) Now, if we assume that most of these people no matter how much they love your performance, are only going to give you that amount of your income that is absolutely disposable, say 1/4th (which might be a bit high), that is a crowd of 200-300 people, ore if you assume lower levels of disposable income.
There is another reason as well: when the check says that you may garner the attention of powerful entities, or even outsiders, this is to say that what will happen is what would most likely happen to the best performers of this time: you would either be offered, or conscripted into, the service of a wealthy patron, who might provide you better or worse circumstances to perform under, depending on the land you happen to be in. If planar travel is common, these wealthy patrons may include up to and including plan hopping wizards, parties of adventurers, efreeti sultans, Ysgardian warlords, one of sigil's many factions, or even heavenly hosts or fiendish lords. I'd imagine many adventuring parties, if they don't already have a bard as a member or cohort, might well recruit bards nonetheless to play for them during their down time (and probably heal wounds, providing temporary buffs, sort mail, serve as emissaries, send messages, and manufacture propagan...err that is to say, spread tales of their daring and glory without the potential risk of doing it themselves! Hell, bards would be the secretaries and personal assistants of the D&D universe.

[Asheram]

I think my college paid somewhere in the realm of 40,000$ for Snookie to do a speech, right after a tuition hike. Much as your Bard may deserve it, he is sadly nowhere near as famous.


I... wha... I don't even...?

Sorry, I must ask. What was she meant to talk about and what Did she talk about?
The only money I'd ever give to Snookie would be a $ to leave the room.

[Morph Bark]

Surprisingly, that's not an exaggeration at all; there are a number of violins worth more than a million dollars. The record is about $15.8 million.

Stradivarius was so good, it makes one wonder if he sold his soul to get those skills.

[Slipperychicken]

I... wha... I don't even...?

Sorry, I must ask. What was she meant to talk about and what Did she talk about?
The only money I'd ever give to Snookie would be a $ to leave the room.

It was for some graduation thing. For some perspective on how demented their values are, they paid a Nobel prize winning novelist 30,000 to speak, while Snookie got 32,000. Her advice to students was "Study hard, but party harder". Suffice it to say, the whole thing got a lot of people (including myself) really mad, especially since they had just raised tuition. Seriously, they could have done something useful with that money, like pay someone to close the windows during winter...

As for the gold fiddle, you guys seem right about that. 3,000gp sounds like a lot more reasonable.

[Jerthanis]

I think the idea of how much money you make from check results between 10 and 30 makes sense for most "Playing in Inns for tips" situations.

The issue of going beyond that, to truly epic checks giving truly epic rewards is the population you play to. I think I remember seeing a youtube video of a world class violinist playing a Stradivarius to a subway platform and getting stone cold ignored. Hitting DC 70 in front of a king with a treasury of 10,000 gold will not net you a reward of 10,000 gold, much less 30,000 gold.

I think the rules that exist, exist for playing in inns for tips and do an okay job of it... there's just only so much money you can make playing for tips, no matter how good you are. Rules for playing to richer and larger crowds are going to be on a totally different dynamic, and there's a maximum gold value that can be expected, no matter how good the performance is.

[TuggyNE]

The issue of going beyond that, to truly epic checks giving truly epic rewards is the population you play to. I think I remember seeing a youtube video of a world class violinist playing a Stradivarius to a subway platform and getting stone cold ignored. Hitting DC 70 in front of a king with a treasury of 10,000 gold will not net you a reward of 10,000 gold, much less 30,000 gold.

Indeed. (The video was of Joshua Bell, as mentioned earlier.)