Resting - What's fair?

[killem2]

Since my sessions are only once a month and usually 7-9 hours long, we get stuck in dungeons quite often.

My next session is going to be a rather large dungeon that is under ruins of what used to be a great castle. I want this is dungeon to last perhaps a good 3-4 months worth of sessions. Now, this might be bending them over backwards at some point, but the party is going to be huge.

Basically, I want to know if I should really be giving them a lot of rest chances?

*takes a breathe*


[Dwarf core] 5 Fighter / 3 Stonelord - with a warbeast template Brown Bear (as per MM entry with chosen feats as it was raised from cub)

[Dwarf core] 8 Cleric - Divine Magician AFC taken, earth domain.

[Wood Elf] 8 Ranger with a swindle spitter

[Halfling core] 6 Rogue / 2 Invisible Blade

[Elf core] 5 Rogue / 3 Assassin

[Silvenstri Elf] 8 Wizard

[Human core] 2 Ranger / 5 Scout / 1 Cloistered Cleric

[Half-Orc core] 6 Barbarian / 2 Warhulk

[Human core] 2 Barbarian / 2 Fighter / 2 Beast Master with a flesh raker, riding dog, and wolf.

[Centaur] 3 Fighter (ranged)

[Half-Celestial Human] 4 Monk

[Dragonlance Minotaur] 7 Fighter with a wild cohort Ape.



Now, they will get some idea of what this place is like, as the back story is, there are 7 seals through out my world where 7 demons were sealed long ago. Well, in this small sector of the world, it has been found that a seal has been broken. So under this castle, is at least 4 levels of dungeon. Beyond that, they don't know (there is of course more cavernous at that point), and so I want it to really be an adventure where they get to the true survival stages, where their food is almost out, where their potions are almost gone and leave them batteling a big nasty at the end.

Now, they are not alone. In another thread you may have saw me asking about ghosts. Well, to be truthful there are two ghosts that will be constantly haunting them. One of pure good and helpfulness one not so much :). One is a gnome they used to know (MY old dmpc, who will return every so often) and a human that has had his spell book taken after he died when with the party.

The gnome is a focused specialist evoker who has quite a few of the many huts/igloo/shelter spells prepared, and some blasting spells who is here to help the party.

The human is a focused specialist necromancer who likes his necromancy quite a lot and is not quite so interested in helping.

When this adventure starts, each of these players is probably going to have nearly 50k worth of gear, and maybe some change for resources, I don't know what they will buy, only that they will be given 1 day notice they must met the local church of Moradin to begin researching these ruins.


What is fair when it comes to resting when in what could not be described any better than true hostile territory.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Great googly-moogly! An adventuring party even larger than mine! :smalleek: How do you manage!?

If the party is capable of resting in a secure location without getting caught, they should be given that opportunity.

The world reacts in real time, so if they set up a tent around the corner and the cave full of ogres find the slain members of the daytime watch, then the party will probably wind up with their throats cut in their sleep (unless they have a watch, in which case they can merely expect an ambush).

If, however, the Wizard had the forethought to prepare Rope Trick (twice!), and the presence of mind to use it (twice!), and the party pulled the ropes up during, then they are basically undetectable, and safely hidden in a little pocket plane for 8 hours of rest, and why deprive them of that success with DM fiat? It may trivialize the encounters some, or require some scaling, but with a party of twelve, that was always going to be a risk anyway.

[Deophaun]

You can give them as many rest chances as they want, but they can only take one of those chances a day and gain any sort of benefit. Meanwhile, your dungeon continues on, progress gets erased, and baddies get tougher.

[Averis Vol]

Wow, sounds like quite an epic adventure. Been a long time since I've seen one of those.

Regardless, I agree with Lonely; If they have the means to safely rest (Like with one of the invisible hut spells) then by all means let them. Unless theres prepared a caster with some form of constant detect magic or arcane sight (Which, unless this place is very magic heavy, there shouldn't be more then one or two smart casters with it) then there should be very little trouble. That being said, if you don't want it too easy then you could also have casters who know about them use something like the nightmare chain of spells that don't require any actual meeting of them, plus the spells aren't particularly game breaking so you shouldn't feel too bad about depriving one random party member of sleep and a little HP.

[Story]

I want it to really be an adventure where they get to the true survival stages, where their food is almost out, where their potions are almost gone and leave them batteling a big nasty at the end.

There's an 8th level Cleric in the party. Food is irrelevant.

[ahenobarbi]

There's an 8th level Cleric in the party. Food is irrelevant.

Create Food and Water is 3rd level spell, a big cost for 8th level cleric. However they could just bring Bag of Holding full of tail rations. Type I Bag of Holding full of tail rations will cost 2525gp and will have enough food for (almost) 21 days for the party.

[Artillery]

Create Food and Water is 3rd level spell, a big cost for 8th level cleric. However they could just bring Bag of Holding full of tail rations. Type I Bag of Holding full of tail rations will cost 2525gp and will have enough food for (almost) 21 days for the party.

They should get a Field Provisions Box (MIC 160) for 2000GP it can feed up to 15 medium creatures or 5 horses a day endlessly.

Or each could just spend 350GP each on Everlasting Rations. That costs more overall, but you have some redundancy then unlike if something happens to the guy with the box.

[killem2]

All great ideas, IF they think of it :).

I thought there was something RAW for resting.

[Jack_Simth]

killem2:
At first glance, it looks like you've got a very wide range of optimization on your PC's. I've always found this is a headache for the DM. Good luck.

A bit more to your question, though:
Depending on the specific builds, it's entirely possible they can arrange to not really need to camping-rest at all (you've got two primary casters, ten noncasters where their primary schtick is not per-day, and five animals in the party - there's a number of methods by which the casters could arrange to give the party infinite non-combat healing, which makes the noncasters need little, if any, camping-style rest).

On the flip side, it takes the party Wizard three castings of Rope Trick to get everyone in there (animals count, after all), then yes, they can get their 8 hours without too much fuss whenever they feel like it (unless you have the ghost interrupt).

The party Cleric can deal with food - at caster level 8, Create Food and Water can feed 24 humanods with one spell slot (or, in this case, about 14 human-sized creatures and three Large creatures - for 20 "food slots" of his 24), and and - while it's a hefty chunk of his daily resources at that level, it's hardly much of an issue once it becomes noticed as one.

You likely will run them low on potions and things, and most people don't build for grinding, so you'll probably be relatively fine.

The DMG recommends 4 encounters per day, if that helps....

[killem2]

Just wanted to give better replies to people.


Create Food and Water is 3rd level spell, a big cost for 8th level cleric. However they could just bring Bag of Holding full of tail rations. Type I Bag of Holding full of tail rations will cost 2525gp and will have enough food for (almost) 21 days for the party.

Could be useful, I don't know what my players may or may not do with this. I was mostly concerned about if there was a hard rule that they can't rest if there is a threat, but I suppose that's why they can be watch dogs, or use alarm. I don't think the wizard has that spell, if she does, great, but I'm not sure. :smallconfused:



They should get a Field Provisions Box (MIC 160) for 2000GP it can feed up to 15 medium creatures or 5 horses a day endlessly.

Or each could just spend 350GP each on Everlasting Rations. That costs more overall, but you have some redundancy then unlike if something happens to the guy with the box.


Along the same lines of what Ahenobarbi was saying, I have no issue with it. If they think of it!


Great googly-moogly! An adventuring party even larger than mine! :smalleek: How do you manage!?

If the party is capable of resting in a secure location without getting caught, they should be given that opportunity.

The world reacts in real time, so if they set up a tent around the corner and the cave full of ogres find the slain members of the daytime watch, then the party will probably wind up with their throats cut in their sleep (unless they have a watch, in which case they can merely expect an ambush).

If, however, the Wizard had the forethought to prepare Rope Trick (twice!), and the presence of mind to use it (twice!), and the party pulled the ropes up during, then they are basically undetectable, and safely hidden in a little pocket plane for 8 hours of rest, and why deprive them of that success with DM fiat? It may trivialize the encounters some, or require some scaling, but with a party of twelve, that was always going to be a risk anyway.

Yeah it is a big party, and I wish it had not gotten so big, but people just kept asking to play and I am a sucker to say no, lol. I am totally ok with them resting in a secure location, or non secure, I just didn't know if rules allowed it, which I guess is a stupid thing to wonder consider what you can do in d&d.

Your concern about the rope trick is a valid on, I however never hand waive over things that the players have thought of, despire how much it may or may not effect my story line. I just can't do it.




You can give them as many rest chances as they want, but they can only take one of those chances a day and gain any sort of benefit. Meanwhile, your dungeon continues on, progress gets erased, and baddies get tougher.


When you say progress gets eraseed what do you mean? Like the creatures who perhaps live in this area know something has been happening and begin go fortify?


Wow, sounds like quite an epic adventure. Been a long time since I've seen one of those.

Regardless, I agree with Lonely; If they have the means to safely rest (Like with one of the invisible hut spells) then by all means let them. Unless theres prepared a caster with some form of constant detect magic or arcane sight (Which, unless this place is very magic heavy, there shouldn't be more then one or two smart casters with it) then there should be very little trouble. That being said, if you don't want it too easy then you could also have casters who know about them use something like the nightmare chain of spells that don't require any actual meeting of them, plus the spells aren't particularly game breaking so you shouldn't feel too bad about depriving one random party member of sleep and a little HP.


I am kind of big on the idea of not relying too much on magic to do things. Magic is very much a part of my d&d world, their own home area that this takes place in has a mini version of what could be considered a tippyverse. It is a gnomish ran city that is self contained in a giant forcefield of magical resistance and dectect alignment that goes off if any evil comes in and alerts everyone. It is a city that is exactly what the DMG says not to make, a city that basically has everything you could ever want magically. (However the city has laws in place to sell to certain people/races/classes ect depending on if they feel they will be responsible with it)

With that said, I love the ideas of the party taking food with them, even if it is a bag of holding of ale and steaks!


There's an 8th level Cleric in the party. Food is irrelevant.

I don't think so. I do not see this cleric using slots of food. Maybe he will, but I doubt it.



killem2:
At first glance, it looks like you've got a very wide range of optimization on your PC's. I've always found this is a headache for the DM. Good luck.


It is, as far as the party it self, the invisble blade and cleric are the same person, and the stonelord and ranger with the dinosaur is also the same person. Those two are probably the most expirenced of everyone, with the Half-celestial and Assassin are close to them in expierence. The rest are less than 5 months old at playing d&d some lower than that, and a couple have not actually played yet :).



A bit more to your question, though:
Depending on the specific builds, it's entirely possible they can arrange to not really need to camping-rest at all (you've got two primary casters, ten noncasters where their primary schtick is not per-day, and five animals in the party - there's a number of methods by which the casters could arrange to give the party infinite non-combat healing, which makes the noncasters need little, if any, camping-style rest).

On the flip side, it takes the party Wizard three castings of Rope Trick to get everyone in there (animals count, after all), then yes, they can get their 8 hours without too much fuss whenever they feel like it (unless you have the ghost interrupt).

The party Cleric can deal with food - at caster level 8, Create Food and Water can feed 24 humanods with one spell slot (or, in this case, about 14 human-sized creatures and three Large creatures - for 20 "food slots" of his 24), and and - while it's a hefty chunk of his daily resources at that level, it's hardly much of an issue once it becomes noticed as one.

You likely will run them low on potions and things, and most people don't build for grinding, so you'll probably be relatively fine.

The DMG recommends 4 encounters per day, if that helps....

Yeah, I am hoping they take this adventure a lot more serious than the last few. They almost died to ability draining and disease because no one though to just bring some damn potions. They also almost lost the warhulk and the cleric because there was very few people with enough healing potions left, because I had them running on empty when they fought one hell of a boss. (Potions are actually very useful in my adventures because of a couple syringes they found in the age of worms campaign that allows loading and taking of a potion as a free action. But getting to someone who needs it can be a challenge.

[NichG]

If you make the dungeon sufficiently dynamic, then even with the ability to take an unassailable rest it will be a difficult decision for the party (once they realize it of course).

Basically yes, have creatures fortify. Have encounters group up rather than staying in their specific areas, in response to the incursion. Treat the dungeon inhabitants like creatures actively trying to take out the invaders rather than waiting for their killers to show up. Surprise should be an important resource, and the way to manage it (so the entire dungeon doesn't just become absolutely lethal the second the PCs rest) is to break the dungeon into sub-sections that get along with eachother or do not, so if the PCs lose surprise in one segment they don't necessarily lose it in another (also a good way to introduce them to the idea that losing surprise will make things harder).

The big thing to keep in mind is how information flows through the dungeon. The PCs will likely argue 'How do they know where we are or know we're even here? We killed everyone we encountered.' This is a valid argument if all enemy placements are static (e.g. posted guards, rather than a guard rotation). If there's a guard rotation then it will be obvious when the guards being replaced and then the guards sent to replace them all fail to come back. That is basically telling the inhabitants directly 'here is where the invaders have passed, and here is where they have yet to get to'. Its best to keep these things in mind, and even set them up to be forestalled or even used by the PCs to help them breach the dungeon. Have the PCs see occasional enemy scouts or guards moving through and checking locations. Have alarm stations and things like that (a tube with a noise-maker, so it can be heard from far away) - clear signs that the complex is set up to descend and crush an intruding force.

Another thing that can happen is that after a certain number of losses, sentient enemies might flee the area, taking their valuables with them. It depends whether they're squatters or tomb-guards or whatever, of course.

At the same time, avoid assuming that there are infinite reinforcements. At some point, the party will have basically just killed everything in the area (or enough that the remainder flee) and can rest there safely without anything really changing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You have arcane casters with access to Rope Trick. Your question should not be 'should I give them a chance to rest' it should be 'how can I limit them from exploting the 'twelve minute advenuring day' syndrome?'. If any of the arcane casters have even passed a glance at any of the various guides which float about the internet, they will quickly realize that Rope Trick is a reset button. This is somewhat complicated by the fact that you can't fit this ginormous party into a single rope trick, but that is easily solvable with a couple of Wands.

A Wand of Rope Trick at CL 8 is only 12k. More than a worthwhile investment for 50 charges. Particularly if a total of three wands are purchased by three different people to distribute the cost.

As far as food and drink... you have clerics in the party, Create Food And Drink is not a major expense. Failing that, Ring of Sustenance, if they think of it, is a pretty handy toy.

Nothing is going to be able to pester them within a Rope Trick, not even the ghosts.

I'm surprised no one went Warlock, it seems ideally suited to an endurance grind like this one.

[killem2]

I think for the first levels, its going to be light. basic moooks and such that have wandered into an area they really should not be in, but a greater power opened the place up so they started to take up there.

As they get deeper and deeper, they are going to be encountering a lot of nasties that don't exactly operate on the level of organization.

These being things like: Oozes, ghosts, ghouls, demons, swarms, vermin, wights, zombies. The forest this is in, also has a quite a large troll population so some of those may start popping up later on.

Perhaps when they get farther and farther down, they may start running into more aberrtion like creatures, or maybe elementals. Not sure yet.

This place is suppose to represent a sore on the landscape of an otherwise perfect landscape. Except on the surface it is a scar, as you look deeper, there is some serious infections.

[tiercel]

The DMG recommends 4 encounters per day, if that helps....

This is a relevant (if metagame) piece of advice... if your party is handling 4ish encounters a day between rests, then it is "fair" to not have their rests disturbed very often; if the party is trying to rest significantly more often than that, then it is "fair" to have their rests more often at least potentially threatened by reasonable means within the denizens' grasp. (Granted, you may have to adjust the actual number of encounters to account for the sheer size of the party, but if your scaled-up party is having scaled-up encounters, then 4ish is around the right number.)

Part of this is common sense -- even without rope trick or the like, if the party is retreating back from the edge of "cleared rooms" to find an out-of-the-way spot they can easily fortify, they should be less likely to be bothered even by a dynamic environment, and should be rewarded with tactical advantages when they would reasonably be bothered. A party that just plops down in the last room they cleared without worrying about securing the area or clearing away the corpses of returning monsters' family members deserves whatever wrath happens to be around to claim them.

Part of this will depend on whether they have cleared out "an area" -- if they pause after eliminating/driving out an entire ogre den, they are less likely to be bothered by the ogres' nosy neighbors than if they have a couple of ogre encounters and just stop for a break partway through the ogres' territory.

Note that you're going to want to think about teleportation effects -- though the sheer size of your party should keep your wizard from too easily just "Town Portaling" your group in and out of the dungeon at will. Still, you may want to invoke the clause in the teleport spell that reads: "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible" -- RAW has given you an "out" to say that your demon-seal dungeon is a no-teleport zone. You could restrict teleport effects to tactical LoS use only or just ban them altogether within the dungeon.

[Deophaun]

When you say progress gets eraseed what do you mean? Like the creatures who perhaps live in this area know something has been happening and begin go fortify?
Fortify, relocate, reinforce. The orc tribe they were fighting has just had a raiding party return, so they now have the same number of orcs ahead of them as they did yesterday. Also, one of them found a wand of fireballs down there...

Conversely, you should reward them when they push on past their resources. Normally, the orcs lock up certain valuables when they're under attack, but the party moved so quick that they didn't have a chance.

[TuggyNE]

Fortify, relocate, reinforce. The orc tribe they were fighting has just had a raiding party return, so they now have the same number of orcs ahead of them as they did yesterday. Also, one of them found a wand of fireballs down there...

To a limited extent, this works, but there's only so many raiding parties you can reasonably have out. Keep track of them.

[andromax]

[Half-Celestial Human] 4 Monk

I admire that guy.. though its going to be a rough campaign for him unless he knows what he is in for.. lol



Basically, I want to know if I should really be giving them a lot of rest chances?


With a lvl 8 wizard, I think it's been pointed out that there needs will be met should they work that angle.. if for whatever reason they find themselves trying to rack out on stone floors in a dungeon pantry, the dice never lie about what sort of random encounter is in store.




and so I want it to really be an adventure where they get to the true survival stages, where their food is almost out, where their potions are almost gone and leave them batteling a big nasty at the end.
And has been pointed out, this isnt an issue for spellcasters past very early levels.

[Vahktang]

JWhen you say progress gets eraseed what do you mean? Like the creatures who perhaps live in this area know something has been happening and begin go fortify?
Exactly.
Call in allies.
Track those that are killing them. Find our heroes lair, then await in ambush.
Unite forces in the dungeon that would not normally unite against them.
Oh, and have the 'orcs' call in a spell caster that can find the rope trick, then dispel it. Our heroes are now up in the air, asleep, then wake up falling.
Have fun with that.



I don't think so. I do not see this cleric using slots of food. Maybe he will, but I doubt it.

When he gets hungry he will.

Oh, throw in some teleport scrolls that will only take part of the party out of the area.


Fortify, relocate, reinforce. The orc tribe they were fighting has just had a raiding party return, so they now have the same number of orcs ahead of them as they did yesterday. Also, one of them found a wand of fireballs down there...

Oh that's good.



Basically, I want to know if I should really be giving them a lot of rest chances?

one eight hour rest with 24 hours. Expect the rest after 4 encounters.
Normally, give them a secure, safe room, they fortify, run and return. This also allows for players that don't show up to have something for their characters to do.

[killem2]

I admire that guy.. though its going to be a rough campaign for him unless he knows what he is in for.. lol


I think he just likes the sound of it. I'm going to be putting him into the lime light a lot when it comes to evil doers. I have no idea what he'll do with that class. When I heard he wanted half celestial I thought, well pretty cool, and what class do you want, I didn't say anything to him.

[Ravens_cry]

Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm)would be very useful *if* they think of it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Exactly.
Call in allies.
Track those that are killing them. Find our heroes lair, then await in ambush.
Unite forces in the dungeon that would not normally unite against them.
Oh, and have the 'orcs' call in a spell caster that can find the rope trick, then dispel it. Our heroes are now up in the air, asleep, then wake up falling.
Have fun with that.Too bad the Rope Trick isn't a viable target for it when the rope is pulled up into the extradimentional area, or that might almost work


When he gets hungry he will.Not a bad use of a slot, anyways. It's not like you have an overabundance of need for third level spells. Maybe keep a Remove Curse on hand for problems, some scrolls certainly to be sure you won't have problems.


Oh, throw in some teleport scrolls that will only take part of the party out of the area.Sure. It's not like anyone in the party can't just teleport back... unless the area has a Forbiddance or somesuch.

[Story]

Too bad the Rope Trick isn't a viable target for it when the rope is pulled up into the extradimentional area, or that might almost work


The window is still there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The window is still there.

Which isn't the target, the rope is. Which is in the extradimensional area. Which you can only access via the rope.


Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Also:


Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it.

So yea... no dice.

[Story]

I don't know about RAW, but I'd certainly allow dispels to target the window.

[killem2]

I really don't see this rope tricking being a big deal, the only person who could cast it, doesn't have it. If they did, ok cool, they rest up.

Next! :P

[Jack_Simth]

I really don't see this rope tricking being a big deal, the only person who could cast it, doesn't have it. If they did, ok cool, they rest up.

Next! :P
Summon Monster III (Celestial Dire Badger) + Tongues. Cleric can pull it off. Dig a hole almost anywhere, which gives you a very compact zone of your own design to set up a watch and a kill zone... and they've got PLENTY of people to handle the rotation.

Not quite as good as three copies of Rope Trick, but something they can start doing the day after they realize they'll need it.

[Deophaun]

Summon Monster III (Celestial Dire Badger) + Tongues. Cleric can pull it off.
What does tongues do for you here? Does your cleric not speak common? Also, big dungeon under a ruined castle doesn't scream "dirt floors/walls" to me, but stone, and dire badgers don't do stone, not even celestial ones.

[Zombimode]

Summon Monster III (Celestial Dire Badger) + Tongues. Cleric can pull it off. Dig a hole almost anywhere, which gives you a very compact zone of your own design to set up a watch and a kill zone... and they've got PLENTY of people to handle the rotation.

The creature lasts for CL*6 seconds. Good luck to the badger digging a hole large enough to accomodate the entire party.

[GnomeGninjas]

The creature lasts for CL*6 seconds. Good luck to the badger digging a hole large enough to accomodate the entire party.

It has a burrow speed of 10 and leaves a 5 ft. wide hole. I think it can make a large enough hole.

[killem2]

That's pretty clever haha, I'm memorizing that on MY CLERIC. haha

[Jack_Simth]

What does tongues do for you here? Does your cleric not speak common?
Not all DM's stick with the bit of logic that has Celestial Dire Badgers speaking common - even though it is, admittedly, completely RAW. Tongues is there to bypass the argument entirely.

Also, big dungeon under a ruined castle doesn't scream "dirt floors/walls" to me, but stone, and dire badgers don't do stone, not even celestial ones.
They can burrow through "anything short of solid stone". All you have to do is crack the floor tiles enough that they're not longer solid stone, and have it burrow into the supporting material. Unless the place was carved into a granite mountain and/or your fighter doesn't have Power Attack, it won't really take all that long (floors have very low AC).

The creature lasts for CL*6 seconds. Good luck to the badger digging a hole large enough to accomodate the entire party.
It's got a move of 10, leaves a five-foot wide tunnel, can double-move, and you've got a bare minimum of 5 rounds on it. How big of a party do you normally expect that a hundred feet isn't enough to settle everyone in it?

That's pretty clever haha, I'm memorizing that on MY CLERIC. haha
If you want to go all-out, also grab a few copies of Stone Shape every day to make a barred entryway, to give yourselves a bit more warning of anything actually coming in.

Also note that Druids can do this with Summon Nature's Ally II and Speak with Animals starting at level 3 (which is also before the Wizard's Rope Trick is useful for such things).

[Deophaun]

They can burrow through "anything short of solid stone".
Which, as I said, being in a dungeon under a ruined castle, means they likely won't be able to burrow anywhere.

All you have to do is crack the floor tiles enough that they're not longer solid stone, and have it burrow into the supporting material.
Which would be more stone.

Unless the place was carved into a granite mountain...
Or the castle was built on bedrock. It's a common defensive consideration considering that sappers are a thing.

You're better off using SNA III for a thoqqua. As discussed in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265801), it can be used to excavate through stone. And if you find soft earth, you can use the same spell to summon 1d3 dire badgers.

[Jack_Simth]

Which, as I said, being in a dungeon under a ruined castle, means they likely won't be able to burrow anywhere.

Which would be more stone.

Or the castle was built on bedrock. It's a common defensive consideration considering that sappers are a thing.

Not necessarily. Even if the walls are dug down to bedrock (which isn't always feasible; my parents' house, for instance, is sitting on well over two hundred feet of dense sand - I know because of research done when they had to replace the motor in their well - which was some 180 feet below ground level... and if you did go down to bedrock, the water table would kill most of the usefulness of your construction) there's a lot of dirt to excavate to make that cover the entire castle. And while yes, it's very helpful to do that for the outer walls, and maybe the outer walls of the actual keep, it's much less useful for the rest of the construction. Meanwhile, the context, here, is that they're doing this in the middle of the place (already past outer walls), where dirt may or may not be there. This is something the DM would need to determine. I'm curious: considering that you don't appear to be the DM in the instance under discussion (the OP is), why are you stating these things in such absolute terms?


You're better off using SNA III for a thoqqua. As discussed in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265801), it can be used to excavate through stone. And if you find soft earth, you can use the same spell to summon 1d3 dire badgers.
In the context of the OP, a Druid is not available. As far as Full Casters go, they've got a Cleric-8 and a Wizard-8 (in a party of 12... plus a bunch of animals). While yes, Summon Nature's Ally is going to be able to get you through solid stone much more readily, it's not particularly relevant in the context of the OP, which is what I was addressing.

[Deophaun]

(which isn't always feasible; my parents' house, for instance, is sitting on well over two hundred feet of dense sand
Your parents' house is a castle?

People don't just place castles willy-nilly. They're placed where they can most easily control the largest territory and be the most defensible. You might build wooden forts on a mound of dirt, but you aren't going to build a castle there, especially since stone is almost always quarried locally to save transportation (which means bedrock isn't that hard to get to).

I'm curious: considering that you don't appear to be the DM in the instance under discussion (the OP is), why are you stating these things in such absolute terms?
Because it's pretty useless hinging a general strategy on a corner case, which is what this is. Not only is it historically rare, I can't even recall a dungeon delve that did not have a party traipsing through mostly stone caverns, and you wouldn't want to rest in the dirt-covered ones anyway, hole or no hole.

In the context of the OP, a Druid is not available.
This is what I get for not playing Clerics. I thought they could cast SNA. Well, in three more levels the ranger (might) be able to do it. Until then, rope trick, secure shelter, which are actually guaranteed to work instead of relying on the poor choices of a geologically challenged regent to get a good night's rest.