Skill ranks minumum

[weckar]

Okay, it is really a simple question, but too open for the Q&A:

Many PrCs require a certain number of skill ranks. Now, is that number (-2) the definite lowest level that PrC can be taken, or is there a way around that? Because... I KNOW there are ways to get around most of these requirements early =p

[TuggyNE]

Many PrCs require a certain number of skill ranks. Now, is that number (-2) the definite lowest level that PrC can be taken, or is there a way around that? Because... I KNOW there are ways to get around most of these requirements early =p

It would be -3, not -2.

And yes, there are a few ways, but nearly all of them are cheesy enough to only be suitable for TO or a stupidly-high-op game. (For example, Inspire Greatness/Dusk Giant shenanigans with psychic reformation.)

However, bloodlines, depending on your interpretation, may provide a not-terribly-cheesy way around this to some extent, and there's a feat (Primary Contact? Favored in Guild? something like that) that IIRC can bump a skill up past the usual limit.

[Jeraa]

It would be -3, not -2.

Ranks -3 is the minimum level needed to meet the requirements. Rank -2 is the level at which you can have the first class level in that class.

Prestige class X requires 9 ranks in Tumble. You can get 9 ranks in Tumble at 6th level (9 ranks -3), but your first class level in Prestige Class X can be taken at level 7 (9 ranks -2).

(The OP mentioned its the lowest level the class can be taken, not the lowest level you meet the requirements.)

[TuggyNE]

Ranks -3 is the minimum level needed to meet the requirements. Rank -2 is the level at which you can have the first class level in that class.

Prestige class X requires 9 ranks in Tumble. You can get 9 ranks in Tumble at 6th level (9 ranks -3), but your first class level in Prestige Class X can be taken at level 7 (9 ranks -2).

(The OP mentioned its the lowest level the class can be taken, not the lowest level you meet the requirements.)

Ah, fair enough.

Reminds me of the CS joke: "There are only two hard problems in computer science: naming, cache invalidation, and off-by-one errors." :smalltongue:

[Story]

Skill ranks is one of the few hard limits that optimizers haven't found any reasonable way around.

In Cityscape, the Primary Contact feat allows you to boost a single skill past the normal cap by one rank. However, this is a very limited benefit at the cost of two feats (plus you have to join an appropriate guild), people usually don't bother.

I think I also saw a setting specific feat once that let you boost int skills by 2, but since noone ever mentions it, there's probably a good reason it's not widely used.

[Diovid]

In Cityscape, the Primary Contact feat allows you to boost a single skill past the normal cap by one rank. However, this is a very limited benefit at the cost of two feats (plus you have to join an appropriate guild), people usually don't bother.
Unless they are allowed to retrain feats, per the PHB II.

[TuggyNE]

Unless they are allowed to retrain feats, per the PHB II.

What good would that do, unless you're cheesily retaining the extra ranks?

[Kumori]

What good would that do, unless you're cheesily retaining the extra ranks?

If you're using it for early entry, once you gain a level you wouldn't need to have ranks above the norm anymore. Retraining would let you replace the no longer needed feat.

[Diovid]

What good would that do, unless you're cheesily retaining the extra ranks?
You use the feat to gain early entry into a prc, then use your level in that prc to raise the required skill rank by 1, then you retrain the feat but you still qualify for the prc.

[Cog]

In Cityscape, the Primary Contact feat allows you to boost a single skill past the normal cap by one rank. However, this is a very limited benefit at the cost of two feats (plus you have to join an appropriate guild), people usually don't bother.
The other general method is to find some way of temporarily gaining HD (hiring a Bard or shapeshifting into a Dusk Giant, mainly), and then using Psychic Reformation to reallocate your skills based on the skill caps of your new HD. When the effect ends, you still have the reassigned skillpoints; there's nothing saying that your ranks must be legal at all times, only that you must purchase them legally. You'll run into problems at your next level-up if you can't meet the prereqs honestly by that point, though, so it's effectively only one level early. Lets you do multiple skills, though, unlike Primary Contact.

[Story]

However, that one requires a very lenient GM.

[Venger]

I think I also saw a setting specific feat once that let you boost int skills by 2, but since noone ever mentions it, there's probably a good reason it's not widely used.

what feat is that? if you can't remember, what's the setting?

[olentu]

The other general method is to find some way of temporarily gaining HD (hiring a Bard or shapeshifting into a Dusk Giant, mainly), and then using Psychic Reformation to reallocate your skills based on the skill caps of your new HD. When the effect ends, you still have the reassigned skillpoints; there's nothing saying that your ranks must be legal at all times, only that you must purchase them legally. You'll run into problems at your next level-up if you can't meet the prereqs honestly by that point, though, so it's effectively only one level early. Lets you do multiple skills, though, unlike Primary Contact.

Yeah, that seems a bit silly. If a character is illegal, then a character is illegal. If illegal characters are allowed then why are we even bothering with all this work when there are much much easier ways to get what we want with an illegal character. It seems like a bunch of extra unnecessary work, given that we are allowing characters to be in direct violation of the rules.

[Cog]

Yeah, that seems a bit silly. If a character is illegal, then a character is illegal. If illegal characters are allowed then why are we even bothering with all this work when there are much much easier ways to get what we want with an illegal character. It seems like a bunch of extra unnecessary work, given that we are allowing characters to be in direct violation of the rules.
A Fighter who's been knocked below 13 Str by a dose of Dragon Bile poison suddenly finds his choice of Power Attack illegal. By that same logic, should the character then be booted from the game?

Whether a choice is illegal is judged by the conditions at the time of the choice.

[VGLordR2]

what feat is that? if you can't remember, what's the setting?

I don't know if this is the one he's thinking of, but there is a Regional Feat called Well Traveled, from Dragon #319. It gives you two additional ranks in Knowledge (Local). It seems similar to what he described.

[Kumori]

A Fighter who's been knocked below 13 Str by a dose of Dragon Bile poison suddenly finds his choice of Power Attack illegal. By that same logic, should the character then be booted from the game?

Whether a choice is illegal is judged by the conditions at the time of the choice.

It's not illegal to have power attack and less than 13 strength, as there is a rule that addresses that type of situation directly. There isn't one addressing having ranks above the max.


Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

You still have the feat, it just does nothing.

[olentu]

A Fighter who's been knocked below 13 Str by a dose of Dragon Bile poison suddenly finds his choice of Power Attack illegal. By that same logic, should the character then be booted from the game?

Whether a choice is illegal is judged by the conditions at the time of the choice.

There are rules put in place that cover that eventuality meaning that no, the fighter would not be breaking the rules. This, on the other hand, is a case of violating a strict rule without any other rule to override the original. And note, it is not a limit on when one can purchase ranks, but rather a limit on the number of ranks one may have.

[weckar]

Hmmm I guess the general consensus is, then, that even with creative rule reading we can't really get around it...

I mean, if we can qualify for "able to cast 3rd level arcane spells" using UMD and scrolls, I am rather surprised that the cheese doesn't smell as strongly here...

[Venger]

Hmmm I guess the general consensus is, then, that even with creative rule reading we can't really get around it...

I mean, if we can qualify for "able to cast 3rd level arcane spells" using UMD and scrolls, I am rather surprised that the cheese doesn't smell as strongly here...

3rd lvl arcane spells is usually doable soonest via earth spell. UMD/scrolls is not generally accepted as qualifying someone for a prc, since you're not "casting" them, per se.

[weckar]

I see no reason why it wouldn't qualify, and Earth Spell still requires some spellcasting proficiency in the class. As far as I know UMD is a generally accepted way to get warlocks into classes they could not otherwise get into.

[Darrin]

3rd lvl arcane spells is usually doable soonest via earth spell. UMD/scrolls is not generally accepted as qualifying someone for a prc, since you're not "casting" them, per se.

Earth Spell requires at least two other feats. Versatile Spellcaster or Sanctum Spell are usually easier, as they usually only require one other feat. Improved Krau Sigil doesn't require any other feats, but requires Illumian as the race, so you miss out on a human bonus feat that way.

Dragonsblood Pool or Lesser Aasimar may also work, depending on how permissive your DM is towards early-entry tricks.

[Venger]

Earth Spell requires at least two other feats. Versatile Spellcaster or Sanctum Spell are usually easier, as they usually only require one other feat. Improved Krau Sigil doesn't require any other feats, but requires Illumian as the race, so you miss out on a human bonus feat that way.

Dragonsblood Pool or Lesser Aasimar may also work, depending on how permissive your DM is towards early-entry tricks.

while versatile spellcaster and sanctum spell are easier featswise, they can only boost a spell lvl 1 on their own, or by 2 if you take them two in addition to another feat, so it's not faster than earth spell, really. unless I'm missing something

krau sigil does help, but requires waiting until level 2, which will often mean you could just wait until later.

do you mean the "daylight" spell for aasimar? I'm not familiar with dragonsblood pool what is it?

[elonin]

A Fighter who's been knocked below 13 Str by a dose of Dragon Bile poison suddenly finds his choice of Power Attack illegal. By that same logic, should the character then be booted from the game?

Whether a choice is illegal is judged by the conditions at the time of the choice.

The choice of power attack is a valid choice, though is unable to use the feat until he qualifies again.