Rng, Brb, Rog, Brd - one fix

[Balor01]

Ok. First of all I would like for everyone to calm the f* fown.

This are noob builds in a noob game.

I know this are horridly unoptimized builds (and this is munchkin forum), but I just can not task my noobish group with too many changes, so I came here with one request: To change One and only one thing about each character to improve them. That means they stay the same classes, but may have different equiptment OR change a feat each OR ... something else. One thing. Also, keep in mind we want these to work(better) at given level, NOT at lvl 12 or something.

As things are now, Bard with his wand is sort of imitating a healbot, others are doing ... about what they should be doing.


Male Wood Elf Ranger 2, HD 2d8+2, hp 16, Init +3, Spd 30 ft, AC 17(18 if shield), touch 13, FF 14(Chain shirt), BAB +2 (+2 STR) composite longbow (+2) +5 1d8+2, Scimitar +4 1d6+2 18-20/×2 SQ Immune to magical sleep, +2 vs. enchantments, Low-light vision, Proficient with longsword, rapier, longbow & shortbow +2 racial bonus on listen, search, and spot checks, Notice secret doors, Favored enemies (+2 human humaniod), Combat Style (archery), Wild empathy (roll level + charisma bonus) AL TN SV Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1(+3 ench.); Str 15(+2), Dex 17(+3), Con 12(+1), Int 8(-1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 8(-1) Appraise -1, Balance +3, Bluff -1, Climb +2, Concentration +1, Diplomacy -1, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +3, Forgery -1, Gather Information -1, Heal +1, Hide +8, Intimidate -1, Jump* +0, Knowledge (nature) +0, Listen +8, Move Silently* +6, Ride +3, Search +1, Sense Motive +1, Spot +8, Survival +1, Swim* +0, Use magic device +1, Use Rope +3, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot[ranger archery track], Track[free to rangers]

Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and steel, 150 ft. long Hempen Rope(3gp), torch, Waterskin, Tent = 19 gp

Shield of faith +2 (potion) 50 gp
Barkskin +2 (potion) 300 gp

Longbow, composite (+2) 300 gp 1d6 1d8 ×3 110 ft. 3 lb. Piercing
Chain shirt 100 gp 4 4 -2 20% 30 ft. 20 ft. 25 lb.
Scimitar 15 gp 1d4 1d6 18-20/×2 — 4 lb. Slashing
Shield, heavy wooden 7 gp 2 — -2 15% — — 10 lb.
219 gp


Male Dwarf Barbarian 2, HD 2d12+6 hp 24, Init +1, Spd 30 Ft, AC 16 (Breastplate), touch 11, FF 15 BAB +2 (+2 STR) Greatsword +4 2d6+2 19-20/×2, Longbow, composite(+2) +2 1d8+2 ×3 SQ Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement (already included), Can move 20 feet even if in heavy armor, Darkvision (see 60 feet in pitch-dark), Stonecunning (+2 on searching stone, intuit depth), +2 vs. poison, +2 vs. spells / spell-like abilities, +1 to hit orcs and goblinoids, +4 AC against giants,+4 to avoid being tripped/bull rushed standing on solid ground, +2 appraise checks if stone/metal, Illiteracy AL N SV Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1(+3 vs spells), Str 15(+2), Dex 12(+1), Con 16(+3), Int 10(+0), Wis 13(+1), Cha 6(-2) Appraise +0, Balance* -3, Bluff -2, Climb* +3, Concentration +3, Diplomacy -2, Disguise -2 , Escape Artist* -3, Forgery +0, Gather Information -2, Handle Animal +3, Heal +1, Hide* -3, Intimidate -2, Jump* -2, Listen +3, Move Silently* -3, Ride +3, Search +0, Sense Motive +1, Spot +3, Survival +1, Swim** +2, Use Magic Device +0, Use Rope +1 Power Attack, Uncanny Dodge

IF ENRAGED: Greatsword +6 2d6+4 19-20/×2, hp 28, Will +3

equiptment:
Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and steel, 150 ft. long Hempen Rope(3gp), , torch, Waterskin, Tent = 19 gp


Barkskin +2 (potion) 300 gp
Shield of faith +2 (potion) 50 gp

Greatsword [2d6, crit 19-20/x2, 8 lb., two-handed, slashing] 50
Composite Longbow (+2) [1d8, crit x3, range incr. 100 ft., 3 lb, piercing] 300
Breast plate [medium; +5 AC; max dex +3; check penalty -4; 30 lb.] 200
ostane 91


male Dwarf Rog 2 HD 2d6+6, hp 16, Init +2, Spd 20 ft; AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex,), BAB +1; Melee Greatsword +1 (2d6+0), Ranged Light Crossbow +2 1d8 19-20/×2
SA sneak attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Can move 20 feet even if in heavy armor, Darkvision (see 60 feet in pitch-dark), Stonecunning (+2 on searching stone, intuit depth), +2 racial bonus on saves vs. poison, +2 racial bonus on saves vs. spells / spell-like abilities, +1 racial bonus to hit orcs and goblinoids, +4 dodge bonus on AC against giants, +4 stability bonus to avoid being tripped/bull rushed standing on solid ground, +2 racial bonus on appraise checks if stone/metal
SV Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1; Str 10(+0), Dex 14(+2), Con 17(+3), Int 13(+1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 6(-2)
Skills and feats: Appraise +1, Balance * +1, Bluff -2, Climb* -1, Diplomacy -2, Disable Device + 7, Disguise -2, Escape Artist* +6, Forgery +1, Gather Information -2, Heal +1, Hide* +6, Intimidate -2, Jump* +0, Listen +6, Move Silently* +6, Open Lock +7, Ride +2, Search +1, Sense Motive +1, Spot +6, Survival* +0, Swim +0, Tumble* +6, Use Rope +2, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Evasion (level 2 Rog)
Languages: Common Dwarven Goblin


Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and steel, 150 ft. long Hempen Rope(3gp), torch, Waterskin = 9 gp


Shield of faith +2 (potion) 50 gp
Invisibility (potion or oil) 300 gp
Invisibility (potion or oil) 300 gp

Studded leather 25 gp 3 5 -0 15% 30 ft. 20 ft. 20 lb.
Crossbow, light 35 gp 1d6 1d8 19-20/×2 80 ft. 4 lb. Piercing
Greatsword 50gp

76 gp


Male Human Bard 2, HD 2d6+1, hp 11(-4 hp), Init +6, Spd 30, AC 19(20Dodge)(Studded leather, tower shield), touch 12, FF 17, BAB +1 (+1 STR) Light Crossbow +3 1d8 19-20/×2. Heavy Mace +2 1d8, Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music, AL N, SV, Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +2, Str 12(+1), Dex 15(+2), Con 13(+1), Int 10(+0), Wis 8(-1), Cha 15 (+2), Appraise +0, Balance* +3, Bluff +2, Climb* +0, Concentration +6, Diplomacy +7, Disguise +2, Escape Artist* +1, Forgery +0, Gather Information +4, Heal -1, Hide* +1, Intimidate +2, Jump* +2, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Listen -1, Move Silently* +1, Perform_Srečen, ker sem moški +7, Ride +2, Search +0, Sense Motive -1, Spot -1, Survival -1, Swim** +1, Tumble* +2, Use Magic Device +7, Use Rope +2, Dodge, Improve initiative

Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and steel, 150 ft. long Hempen Rope(3gp), torch, Waterskin = 9 gp

750 (wand of healing)


Studded leather 25 gp 3 5 -1 15% 30 ft. 20 ft. 20 lb.
Crossbow, light 35 gp 1d6 1d8 19-20/×2 80 ft. 4 lb. Piercing
Mace, heavy 12 gp 1d6 1d8 ×2 — 8 lb. Bludgeoning
lute (1gp)
Tower shield 50 gp


27 gp

Spells known: 0(5): Daze, Know direction, Light, Resistance, Summon instrument 1(2): Cure Light Wounds, Grease

Zero-level Bard spells: 3 per day

First-level Bard spells: 1 (0+1) per day

...


Thanks

[Juntao112]

I know this are horridly unoptimized builds (and this is munchking forum)That word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means.

As for your builds, I would like to try and help, but your formatting is not helping things. Would you be willing to make it less like a block of text?

[Balor01]

Fixxed for grammar nazis. Also: It means to trip the living daylight out of things or to play urpriest.

[Yora]

What actually is the problem that you want to improve on?

[Balor01]

What actually is the problem that you want to improve on?

I would like to suggest to each player ONE change. I was thinking of a better feat but perhaps something else would be more appropriate. As a DM I do not really ahve much experience with optimisation. I would like just to make these guys a bit more effective at what they do.

[Yora]

For that we would have to know what they are not effective at.

The only sub-optimal descision I see is getting greatsword proficiciency for the rogue. It works, but spending a rare feat on it doesn't seem worth the payoff.

[Balor01]

For that we would have to know what they are not effective at.

Hmmm this one got me a bit. Is there any way you could start a sentence regarding these characters with:

"The X on ranger is useless ... it would be good to have it replaced with Y."


Generally, they have rather great difficulty overcoming CR-apropriate challenges.

[Eldan]

Hmmm. At level 2, and they already have problems? I mean, from mid-levels on, I'd say they lack a caster and a good healer, but it shouldn't be that noticeable that early on, when the bard has a wand and a few nice spells.

The rogue might do better with higher dex and weapon finesse, instead of high con and greatswords, but that's just one thing. He'd certainly hit more and have better rogue skills.

What exactly gives them problems? It seems to me this would be more an issue of tactics than build. There's nothing really wrong with the builds.

[Balor01]

@Eldan

Holy heck. It may in fact be the playing. Thing is, I have experience with different groups (mostly experienced optimizers) who powergamed trough pretty much anything but walls of force.

I was very sure the problem are bad builds. If that is not the case I'll try to put some more emphasis on teaching them the tactics.

Also, I was sure that "healbot bard" can not really work. Mainly that was the reason for me to post here. Thanks for answers.

[Amphetryon]

Your Rogue would be better off having gotten a shortbow and the feat Point Blank Shot, since he lacks the DEX for TWF at this point without a houserule. That's the only glaring issue that isn't likely to be tactically-based at this level, other than their dearth of casters.

Bard as healer works just fine; I've done it myself.

[docnessuno]

Obviously being rude to the people that are supposed to help you is the best way to ensure such help.

Ranger:
Use the Mystic ranger variant (not recomended considering your dislike for optimizers), otherwise no changes.
Level 3: Either multiclass into Scout (and take the Swift Hunter feat at lvl 6) or go on as straight ranger.

Barbarian:
The greatsword damage should be 2d6+3 (2d6+6 while enraged).
Use the Whirling Frenzy ACF and/or use the Lion Totem Barbarian ACF from Complete champion (no immediate advantage for the second one but strongly recomanded).
Put max ranks into jump.
Level 3: Pick up the Leap attack feat.

Rogue:
Switch Dex and Con (ending up with 15 - 16, so he can pump dex on level 4).
Replace martial weapon proficiency with weapon finesse.
Level 3: Pick up Two-Weapon Fighting (feat) and the Penetrating Strike ACF.

Bard:
HPs should be 2d6+2.
Tower shield? Is the player aware that it awards a -10 to all Str and Dex based skills, as well as a -12 to attack rolls (nonproficient)?
Drop dodge, pick up Lingering Song.
Level 3: Pick up Song of the Hearth (feat) and Inspirational boost (spell).

Overall the builds are not bad at all. Only the rogue with 0 str wielding a greatsword desn't work that well.

[Yora]

Healbots never work well. For the simple reason that there are very few ways that can cure damage faster than the enemy can deal it. In-combat healing is best use to keep people from dying when they are about to go down. But even a cleric does a better job in helping everyone survive an encounter by participating in getting the enemies defeated quickly instead of trying to negate the damage the enemy deals to the party, which he never can.
The best use of a healer is after all enemies are out of the fight and time is no longer such a pressing issue. Then even a bard can take a couple of rounds to patch everyone up to be ready for the next fight. If it looks like someone could be permanently killed in the next round, then he needs a healing spell right now to give him a chance to get to safety. But negating the damage the enemies are dealing by healing is virtually impossible.

Groups without wizards and clerics can work very well, but the GM has to select the enemies the party is fighting accordingly. If you have no cleric, don't send swarms of ghouls or wights at them. If there is no cleric or wizard, don't have them fight creatures that can not be harmed by weapons.

It is possible to have such encounters, but for that the players need to know when to run away and defeat an enemy with trickery rather than hacking away its hit points. Which is great fun, but something groups of new players have a very hard time with.

[Yuki Akuma]

Healbots in general don't work, but a Bard with a wand of Cure Light Wounds (or, better, Lesser Vigor and max ranks in UMD) is just as good as a Cleric with same.

[JellyPooga]

Less a piece of advice for the player and more a question for the DM...how is the Bard lugging around (let alone using) a Lute, Crossbow and a Tower Shield? Let alone casting spells or using his wand(s) whilst doing so? Whilst he might be able to carry these things according to his encumbrance/Str, a tower shield is not exactly the kind of thing you sling over your shoulder when you're doing something else.

More on-topic; The Bard might want to ditch Dodge and pick up something more offensive. Point Blank Shot or Spell Focus are both pretty solid 1st level choices, depending on whether you want to focus more on mundane or magical offence. If the Bard is going to be a heal/buff-bot, then Spell Focus is unneccesary, but the Bard has some pretty good spells available that require saves...Hideous Laughter, Sleep, Hypnotism and Lesser Confusion are all Enchantments that are pretty solid at low levels.

The Rogue is burning a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency. If he's dead set on it, then fine, I'm not going to argue, but he'd probably be better served with something more...well, roguey. He's not rocking a Str bonus, which means he's not getting the best bonus out of wielding a two-handed weapon. As such, investing in a heavier crossbow and Point Blank Shot would not be an amazingly bad idea. Similarly, the ever useful Improved Initiative will allow him to get the jump (and thus Sneak Attack) on his opponents, if he's more melee inclined.

[Balor01]

@JellyPooga
Well, bard had an idea of going "turtle mode" if he was a healer. So largest possible shield+wand of Cure. I'll try to explain to him to go into a more "offensive" mode, without shield, but still keep the wand.

Also, thanks for answers, all. I'm sure my players will appreciate the advice.

[Amphetryon]

Rogue:
Switch Dex and Con (ending up with 15 - 16, so he can pump dex on level 4).
Replace martial weapon proficiency with weapon finesse.
Level 3: Pick up Two-Weapon Fighting (feat) and the Penetrating Strike ACF.

Overall the builds are not bad at all. Only the rogue with 0 str wielding a greatsword desn't work that well.
Weapon Finesse is not obtainable at level 1 for a Rogue, as it requires BAB +1, RAW.

[Dude_Here]

The rogue might do better with higher dex and weapon finesse, instead of high con and greatswords, but that's just one thing. He'd certainly hit more and have better rogue skills.

I definitely would have to agree with that suggestion.

You didn't say what books you have access to or if your using Pathfinder rules; so I'm assuming all is fair game. The only real no brainer I can see, other than the above suggestion, is replacing the bard's cure light wounds spell with inspirational boost from the Spell Compendium. This is a must have spell for a bard. I would also look into the Improvisation spell later on.

INSPIRATIONAL BOOST
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-
Affecting, Sonic]
Level: Bard 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round or special;
see text
You concentrate on assisting your friends as
you begin the short chant and simple handchopping
motion necessary to cast the spell.
As you finish, the spell’s chant allows you to
segue easily into bolstering your allies.
While this spell is in effect, the morale
bonus granted by your inspire courage
bardic music increases by 1.
The effect lasts until your inspire
courage effect ends. If you don’t begin
to use your inspire courage ability
before the beginning of your next turn,
the spell’s effect ends.

[Malak'ai]

@JellyPooga
Well, bard had an idea of going "turtle mode" if he was a healer. So largest possible shield+wand of Cure. I'll try to explain to him to go into a more "offensive" mode, without shield, but still keep the wand.

Also, thanks for answers, all. I'm sure my players will appreciate the advice.

Going "Turtle Mode" as you say is fine for a Healbot (at low levels), but he shouldn't focus on that. His best bet would be his Buffs/Debuffs (and limimited Crowd Control) spells/abilities.

I'd suggest the Rogue dump the MWP: Greatsword and pick up either Improved Int (and when he can) Weapon Finness and grab a shortsword or rapier.

Barb... Well... Can't see anything too bad here.

Ranger, once again, not much to add really.... Maybe move into Swift Hunter when (s)he can, or look for a more long ranged Homebrew (that you would allow if you do that sort of thing).

[kestrel404]

I came here with one request: To change One and only one thing about each character to improve them.

Ranger - Looks good to me. If I was going to nitpick, I would recommend a Masterwork Spyglass (200gp), which provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception and Survival (including Tracking) checks.

Barbarian - How were stats chosen? Because his strength is awfully low for a Barbarian. If he rolled, I recommend allowing him to use point buy so that he can get a decent strength score. You want at least a 16, and preferably an 18, especially if you're using a 2-H weapon.

Rogue - Greatsword is a poor choice. You deal more damage through sneak attack, not bigger weapons. Trade MWP for Craven. It's a feat that allows you to deal your character level in extra damage whenever you would deal sneak attack damage. It gives you a -2 penalty to saves against fear, but it's worth it.

Bard - There are honestly two things I would want to change, but I'll limit myself to one for now and advice for the next level. Advice for now is: Take the Melodic Casting feat. Improved initiative is not a bad choice, but if he's going to be wand-healing the party in battle, then he should be able to sing while he does it, thus doubling up his assistance during battle. It also allows him to ignore the Concentration skill, which is basically +1 skill point per level for a casting class.
As additional advice, the bard really should take the Inspirational Boost spell the next time he gains a level.

Hope that helps.

[Dude_Here]

Advice for now is: Take the Melodic Casting feat. Improved initiative is not a bad choice, but if he's going to be wand-healing the party in battle, then he should be able to sing while he does it, thus doubling up his assistance during battle. It also allows him to ignore the Concentration skill, which is basically +1 skill point per level for a casting class.

I forgot to mention Melodic Casting; also, when he
hits level 3 he should take the Song of the Heart feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting. http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl
Increase your inspire courage by +1 combined with inspirational boost you'll have +3 for your inspire courage. It also increases your other musical abilities.