The ultimate mindspy?

[kemmotar]

I've had this idea for quite a while now and have been trying to figure out how to flesh it out properly. The key concept is using detect thoughts to anticipate pretty much everything. Initially I was going for straight doppleganger into mindspy (CW)

Changeling into cabinet trickster into mindspy was the next possible path but it pushes the mindspy levels too far out (need level 6 for cabinet trickster so you can get into mindspy at level 12).

The build that I've been considering is doppleganger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8160461&postcount=258) with 3 levels in evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89433). The reason for the 3 levels in evolutionist is twofold, one to get charm person as a spell like ability for a dip into mindbender for the slightly cheesy telepathy/mindsight.

The way I read the spell like abilities section is you use your HD not your evolutionist level, I may be wrong but I can at least convince my DM that it works that way:smalltongue:

The strengths of this setup are that by level 13 you have the full "combo", additionally, the two extra mutations can be used to get two extra arms for multiweapon fighting shenanigans to make up for decreased fighting ability. Additionally, through the doppleganger levels and use of detect thoughts, this is probably the ultimate party face and/or infiltrator.

Now the problem is that none of this works against things without an intelligence score. I wouldn't even be able to detect them via mindsight much less fight them.

Now, what I'm looking for is ways to be useful if something comes up. I know that for example the pixie paragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8592607&postcount=512) has an ability that allows her to enchant creatures normally immune. Is there something similar I could use for mindsight and/or detect thoughts.

Any other tips on how to improve this would be appreciated.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wouldn't worry too much about fighting mindless creatures. Your weakness is their weakness too. Non-intelligence is a crippling weakness.

Just knock down the push-over foes and move on to something smart enough to be worth your time.

[kemmotar]

Well, you could theoretically face a number of strong yet mindless undead or constructs. Granted, it's a big pool of enemies you're good at facing and a small pool of enemies you're not but it can still be annoying if you get "stuck" in a quest where you have to face a number of these.

It seems to me there should be something out there given that there are ways to bypass SA immunity, enchantment immunity etc. Would be nice to be prepared, even if it has a high gold cost.

[limejuicepowder]

How flexible is your DM?

Try to talk them in to changing the mind-reading combat to be more sharingan-ish; that is, seeing your opponent's moves before they do them. This would (from a total fluff stand point) let it work on mindless creatures. Let them keep the will save so it's not totally broken, but expand it to work against all creatures.

If I was the DM I would let this fly for a couple of reasons. 1) Mindless entities are never the BBEG, or even anything especially important. There for denying them the normal immunity isn't really going to change anything. 2) I don't like when characters are rendered useless just because of the type of creature they are fighting. Expanding the times things like sneak attack can be used is a good thing IMO.

Yeah I know this probably won't work, but it might be worth a try.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you can gain access to Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) (and at 2nd level, it's a cheap wand or scroll), you can more or less ignore the threat of mindless undead. Auto-dominate for days at a time, no save? Yeah, that sounds about right.

Constructs become your big problem, then, and I don't know of any low level auto-win button against constructs. (Not saying that one doesn't exist - I just don't know of it.)

As for detecting creatures that are immune to your mindsight, well, zombies and golems don't typically hide all that well, so you can always just... look for them. Deathwatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathwatch.htm) will let you know of ANY creatures in its range, including undead enemies and constructs, and it's Necromancy rather than Divination, so Mind Blank won't block it (which is nice, because I have met multiple DMs that rule that Mind Blank blocks mindsight, even though by RAW it doesn't). It's 10 minutes/level and doesn't require any concentration to maintain. The only downside is that it doesn't pinpoint creatures, so once you know something is in range that you can't see, you'll need another method to actually pinpoint where it is.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Mindless foes are only a threat if you choose to fight them. If they're attended by something intelligent, kill that instead. If they're not, find some non-combat means of bypassing them. Outsmarting them shouldn't be hard.

For mindless undead; hide from undead. It's low-level and you can walk right up and pluck a zombie's eye out without it even knowing you're there. Command undead lets you turn them against one another. Either UMD a device or let the caster handle it. (you get XP for overcoming challenges, not just for killing mooks. If your DM tries to say you get no xp since you didn't kill them, smack him with the DMG then direct his attention to the "rewards" section in chapter 2.)

Constructs are too expensive for you to ever realistically find yourself faced with more than two or three in a dungeon. Even then there's either a controller to focus on or a set of pre-programmed instructions you can puzzle out to bypass the creature without having to fight it. Destroying a mindless construct should be a last resort borne of desperation unless you're just dead-set on killing everything in your path between where you are and your goal.

In any case. I remember mind-spy giving bonuses that aren't that substantial. Why can't you just deal with being mildly less effective? It's not like you're a rogue who can't sneak attack here, or a fighter in a social encounter. Being placed against mobs of mindless creatures when your gimmick is using mind-reading to fight better is kind of an ass move on your DM's part anyway. Don't engage in the arms race, just tell him to knock it off.