Rogues, Sneak Attack, and Spells

[ArcanaGuy]

Hello, clever boffins of the forum.

OK. Multiclassing. Rogue/Sorcerer.

It would seem to me that spells such as Fireball or Fire Spray do not meet the requirements for an attack that would allow a Rogue to add sneak attack damage to the fireball damage.

It would also seem to me that spells such as Elemental Orb or Melf's Acid Arrow *DO* meet the requirements for an attack that allows a Rogue to add sneak attack damage to the spell.

If you disagree with this, I would like to hear. But my big question is:

Can a Rogue add Sneak Attack damage to Magic Missile?

[Cranthis]

Off topic: Should have went wizard, better synergy.

On Topic: Generally no, as it doesn't allow for an attack roll, so you can't be more precise with it.

[hymer]

It takes a weapon-like spell to deliver a sneak attack (Complete Arcane p. 85). Magic missile isn't one of them, so it can't. :)

[mattie_p]

No, not to magic missile. The spell used to sneak attack requires an attack roll, with some clarification. See this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154642) for some past discussion on the topic which sums it up nicely.

[Zanthy1]

I agree with the previous posts.

Also about going Wizard. Just because Rogues and Wizards both use high Int. However, it would seem to be easier to play a sorcerer/rogue, just because you don't have to worry about prepping spells.

It does require an attack roll, so I think scorching ray could be sneak attacked, however I am not 100% sure, because it is not a weapon attack.

Personally, I would recommend taking utility spells as a sorcerer, like invisibility, open lock, etc. Eliminate the need to carry so many gadgets and the like. But beware of arcane spell failure, as a rogue you may still be wearing armor. Just keep that in mind when you jump from the highest tower and your feather fall spells fizzles out :(

[Zherog]

Personally, I would recommend taking utility spells as a sorcerer, like invisibility, open lock, etc. Eliminate the need to carry so many gadgets and the like. But beware of arcane spell failure, as a rogue you may still be wearing armor. Just keep that in mind when you jump from the highest tower and your feather fall spells fizzles out :(

Feather fall doesn't have somatic components, and so isn't subject to arcane spell failure chance. ;)

(your overall point, however, stands.)

[Ravens_cry]

If you are using the common house-rule of unlimited 0 level spells, spells like acid splash and ray of frost can be nice and these *can* be sneak attacked with.

[toapat]

Any weapon-like spell (that is, any spell which uses an attack roll) can be sneak attacked with. This is particularly devastating with any spell that deals Negative levels on an attack roll, as they deal the sneak attack damage as negative levels also, which absolutely obliterates opponents not immune to negative levels.

Wizard is infinitely better though for gishing with rogue:
Higher Int, which leads to higher skill points
Better Skill list: Faster Entry into Unseen Seer
Cheaper resource investment, you dont have to invest in 3 Diviniation spells to get your spellcasting, you just learn 3 divinations on the side
Easier Optimization: Hoops have to be jumped through to get Cha to HP, Int to HP just needs a feat and some Elf on Elf.

[Andezzar]

This is particularly devastating with any spell that deals Negative levels on an attack roll, as they deal the sneak attack damage as negative levels also, which absolutely obliterates opponents not immune to negative levels.No they don't. See Complete Arcane p. 86. They only do negative energy damage.

[Glimbur]

If you are using the common house-rule of unlimited 0 level spells, spells like acid splash and ray of frost can be nice and these *can* be sneak attacked with.

There are also other ways to get that to happen: a wand of a 0th level spell is cheap past about level 4 and 50 attacks is plenty. There is at least one item (Gloves of the Uldra Savant) that gives a cantrip-attack at will. Dip warlock.

Or you can TWF throw acid flasks and alchemist's fire.

[gorfnab]

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)


Spells as Sneak Attacks

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.

Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack).

A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack).

With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack.

[JellyPooga]

Wizard is infinitely better though for gishing with rogue.

Meh, I'd be inclined to disagree with this. If you're playing a Face-rogue with a little magical backup, then Cha is going to be more important than Int and Sorcerer might be a better choice.

- You don't have to worry too much about skill points because you get a shed-load from Rogue levels.
- More spells per day means more spell sneak attacks.
- Don't have to worry about your brother thieves stealing your spellbook.
- Marginally better synergy of Class Skill Lists (i.e. Bluff)
- Everyone likes Sorcerers better, because they look good doing it! :smallwink:

I'm not saying Sorcerer is always, or even more often, going to be a better choice, but I wouldn't say Wizard was an infinitely better one.

[Yuki Akuma]

Any weapon-like spell (that is, any spell which uses an attack roll) can be sneak attacked with. This is particularly devastating with any spell that deals Negative levels on an attack roll, as they deal the sneak attack damage as negative levels also, which absolutely obliterates opponents not immune to negative levels.

No they don't. I can't imagine how you got that impression, considering the "weaponlike" spell term comes from the same book that says they don't.

[ArcanaGuy]

Thank you, very much, for all your help.

For the record - The Rogue/Sorcerer is all about charm - he's high on etiquette, diplomacy, bluff, etc. There is also a Wizard/Rogue assassin that I was using along with this...

The game happened as planned. He was *supposed* to get away as a recurring villain ... but my players were ... persistent. And rolled really well versus his stealthy sneaky attempts to get away. He hurt them a *lot*, though. Nothing that won't heal, but still.

[toapat]

- Don't have to worry about your brother thieves stealing your spellbook.

wait, so there are wizards who prefer to write their spells instead of burying the scroll in a pile of pot and smoking it?

[Andezzar]

wait, so there are wizards who prefer to write their spells instead of burying the scroll in a pile of pot and smoking it?Where is that ACF from?

[toapat]

Where is that ACF from?

Eidetic Spellcaster Varient, Dragon 357, P 89.

Lose: Scribe Scroll
Lose: Spell Book
Lose: Familiar
Gain: Photographic Memory
Gain: Smoke Weed to learn scrolls (GP value equal to normal scroll inscription)

[Andezzar]

Thought so. Dragon Magazine is not allowed at all tables, so there are indeed many spellcasters who get no special benefit from smoking weed.

[toapat]

Thought so. Dragon Magazine is not allowed at all tables, so there are indeed many spellcasters who get no special benefit from smoking weed.

overal, from what ive seen, dragon was typically better quality then the rest of 3.5. granted, you needed a 9+ year subscription to a magazine you never heard of til after the good stuff was already printed.

Eidetic spellcaster is really just preventing the DM from being a **** to the group, in exchange for more rollplay potential in having a mechanically supported stoner wizard.

[elonin]

Scorching Ray does allow precision damage but only for the first one.

[toapat]

Scorching Ray does allow precision damage but only for the first one.

where does it say that? it rolls an attack roll for each

[Urpriest]

where does it say that? it rolls an attack roll for each

Volley attacks, Rules Compendium.

[hymer]

Complete Arcane p. 86 has it too (under Sneak Attacks -> Multiple Hits). Only the first attack gets to deal sneak attack damage, and if it misses, there's no sneak attack damage for that casting of the spell.

[elonin]

[/url] With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack.

Should have submitted my source when posting.