Burning Hands: Amazing or terrible?

[AttilaTheGeek]

Title says it all. I've put it to good use, but I've heard arguments that it's awful. What does the playground think?

[Elderand]

I'd say not great, there are better direct damage spells for that level (lesser orbs come to mind) there are better area spells that will disable enemies more readily (sleep, color spray).

All in all, I'd say it isn't great.

[Norin]

Situational, at low levels, it's ok i guess.

1d4 per level on a fan\cone shaped area can take out an entire encouter with one spell if you get lucky with damage rolls and the encounter fails save.

But it kinda sucks compared to what you get on higher level as far as blasting goes.

[arguskos]

It's decent. Filler damage spell really. One of the better AoE damage spells you have at level one, but then again, this is level one we're talking about. You could also just throw rocks at the bad guys and probably get there, so there you have it.

Personally, I've seen a sorcerer do well using Energy Substitution and Burning Hands at levels one to three. I do like that Burning Hands can light stuff on fire and have seen that matter a few times (using it to hit baddies AND light the building on fire was fun).

[Jeraa]

Damage might not be very impressive compared to other spells, but at 1st level it averages 2.5 damage. Your average person (a 1st level commoner) has 2.5 hit points on average. You can potentially take out everyone in the room (and possibly set the building on fire) even at 1st level*. Its one of the few (only?) 1st level area damage spells. Also helps with those low-CR swarms (Bat swarms are CR 2, spider swarms are CR 1).

*Granted, monsters usually aren't commoners, and have slightly higher hit points.

[Eldonauran]

If you have a way of boosting your caster level at level 1 (to 3 or 4 or even 5) for that particular spell (don't take anything permanent like a feat), it is fairly useful.

Just be sure to swap out the spell later (if sorcerer) or take a feat to keep the damage up to par (like Intensify spell, if playing pathfinder). Eventually, you will get better spells.

[Chilingsworth]

I tend to avoid damaging spells myself. Dealing damage is a vulgar means of handling an enemy. If the BSF can do it, surely refined folks like us spellcasters can find better things to do with our time, yes? Instead, I use spells such as charm person, color spray and grease for my first level arcane spells.

[Psyren]

Note that it's even better on other casters. For example, a Flame Oracle has few other directly offensive options at low level, so you may as well light it up.

[Shpadoinkle]

Well, as far as I can recall right offhand, it's the ONLY level 1 AoE damage spell in the game, or at least in core, so that's something.

Aside from that? The area is awkward and the range is bad (the guy with a d4 HD shouldn't be that close to enemies if he can avoid it anyway, though I could see having one casting memorized for emergencies,) and the damage isn't all that impressive. It's good if you're in the right position to use it, but actively trying to find uses for it is... not all that advisable. There are better level 1 spells.

[Zelkon]

In a game where you're fighting a bunch of low-levels, like on a mass battleground, it's handy. I have it prepared on battle days. Of course, most games aren't like that. It's situational, but good when it comes up.

[Piggy Knowles]

For level 1 short range area spells, it's got some stiff competition with Color Spray.

[TypoNinja]

Well, as far as I can recall right offhand, it's the ONLY level 1 AoE damage spell in the game, or at least in core, so that's something.

Aside from that? The area is awkward and the range is bad (the guy with a d4 HD shouldn't be that close to enemies if he can avoid it anyway, though I could see having one casting memorized for emergencies,) and the damage isn't all that impressive. It's good if you're in the right position to use it, but actively trying to find uses for it is... not all that advisable. There are better level 1 spells.

I usually pick it up because its your first chance to do something effective against a swarm, its AoE and its early, that's pretty much the long and short of it. I wouldn't move up to use it (unless I thought it'd get the kill) but it HAS come in handy for me in the past.

Also, the one time I was in a party with no AoE at all we got TPW'd by cockroach swarms, so its one of those things I go out of my way to be able to deal with now.

[Story]

What about comboing it with Grease or Web? (Actually, it's not clear if Grease spell is supposed to be flammable, but most DMs will assume it is. Web explicitly is flammable.)

[Flickerdart]

Fire is the easiest element to get an improved caster level for, so if you are going that route, Burning Hands is pretty good. Its cap really limits its effectiveness, though.

[Twilightwyrm]

If you can get a house ruled 3.0 version of this, it would have greater utility. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way it was worded in 3.0, it would seem that the spell lasted as long as the spellcaster kept their hands spread in the requisite fashion. This means it would last the whole encounter, and if you aren't worried about stealth, potentially the entire day (so long as you are willing to not cast any other spells with somatic components all day). Again, I could be wrong about this, but if not, this would lend the spell a great deal of versatility and utility value.

[Phaederkiel]

@ chillingsworth:

I thought so once, too. But it heavily depends on party makeup. It can easily happen that there is no BSF, so someone has to kill the opponents, and someone happens to be you, the caster. And not beeing able to coup de grace every enemy before the first guys start waking up again really can put a wedge to your wheel. I am all for having at least one good blast spell with me, in case the fighty guys get manhandled easily.

[DarkWhisper]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way it was worded in 3.0, it would seem that the spell lasted as long as the spellcaster kept their hands spread in the requisite fashion. (...)

Consider yourself corrected:


Burning Hands
(...)
Area: Semicircular burst of flames 10 ft. long, centered on the character's hands
Duration: Instantaneous

[JellyPooga]

Personally, I like it. It's not the best spell for a 1st level slot, but it does what it says on the tin...small AoE direct damage. Sometimes it's exactly what you need. It's a shame there's not a lot of metamagic that can be usefully applied to it, because it could have potential, being a low-level spell.

One interesting Metamagic that can be usefully applied is Sculpt Spell, from Complete Arcane. You're still limited to the 15ft range, so the Line and Ball shapes aren't really that useful, but the 4x10ft squares shape could be a situationally useful effect if you happen to get surrounded. Only for a Spont-caster, of course; you wouldn't pre-prep it, I suppose.

[Chilingsworth]

@ chillingsworth:

I thought so once, too. But it heavily depends on party makeup. It can easily happen that there is no BSF, so someone has to kill the opponents, and someone happens to be you, the caster. And not beeing able to coup de grace every enemy before the first guys start waking up again really can put a wedge to your wheel. I am all for having at least one good blast spell with me, in case the fighty guys get manhandled easily.

I don't think I've ever really encountered this problem, so I didn't think of it.

The closest I've come to it is probably the party I'm currently playing with:

A swordsage
A greatsword wielding cleric
A Druid with a wolf animal companion
A Dread Necromancer (just died, will likely be replaced by an archer of some kind)
A Rogue with a level of warblade
and Me, a wizard/beguiler going for Ultimate Magus.

All 5th level.

[Story]

Fortunately, the Druid comes with a free BSF.

[Ravens_cry]

Burning hands is situational, though been able to light stuff on fire is pretty nice for such a low level spell. Trading a first level spell, burning hands, for a second, web, is also a good trade I would say.

[elvengunner69]

What about comboing it with Grease or Web? (Actually, it's not clear if Grease spell is supposed to be flammable, but most DMs will assume it is. Web explicitly is flammable.)

Isn't the damage for a burning 'web' like 1d6? Might be good to web them and if it looks like they are about to get out then burn them.

[Gavinfoxx]

(Actually, it's not clear if Grease spell is supposed to be flammable, but most DMs will assume it is. Web explicitly is flammable.)

It isn't flammable, explicitly. There is an alternative to Grease that is the same, except it is specifically flammable. I'll find the name at some point...

[LanSlyde]

It isn't flammable, explicitly. There is an alternative to Grease that is the same, except it is specifically flammable. I'll find the name at some point...

Incendiary Slime

Boom.

It's essentially the magical equivalent of napalm. I use it whenever I know things are going to go south and I need to either cause mass confusion and panic or get rid of evidence. Usually both.

Useful for torching taverns if you drop a couple castings of the gunk.

EDIT: I really don't know why people thing the grease spell itself should be flammable, the material component calls for either butter or pork rind. Neither of which is particularly flammable.

[Jeraa]

*link removed*

Boom.

It's essentially the magical equivalent of napalm. I use it whenever I know things are going to go south and I need to either cause mass confusion and panic or get rid of evidence. Usually both.



You should remove that link. The vast majority of information on that site is not Open Content, and shouldn't be there.

[Deophaun]

It isn't flammable, explicitly. There is an alternative to Grease that is the same, except it is specifically flammable. I'll find the name at some point...
Incendiary slime is not just specifically flammable, it is super flammable. If grease itself were flammable, it would be in the same category as burning oil, doing a lot less damage.

[Phaederkiel]

@ chillingsworth:

well, yes, it is not a very common problem. But beeing a wizard means having solutions to the uncommon problems too, does it not?

i have encountered this problem quite often in a campaign where we are only two players and I play an ultimate magus, and the other player plays a druid.
her fleshraker can only kill so many opponents, so I have to pack some blasts, too. In the beginning, I overoptimized and lost necromancy as well as evocation, this was A Very Bad Choice Indeed.
I would have loved to have access to some suboptimal blast spells when all my spellslots could do was enlonganate the fight so that her spellslots could win it.

the other way it can happen is:
say, someone cast confusion / fear / something like that on the party. All the ´buff guys fail their checks (which is quite likely, unfortunately) and then you can disable the opponent in 7 ways, but he WILL recover, probably before your party stops fleeing. So you have to use a spell slot anyway, but you still have the problem afterwards.

some burn is good burn :smallsmile:

[Certified]

Damage might not be very impressive compared to other spells, but at 1st level it averages 2.5 damage. Your average person (a 1st level commoner) has 2.5 hit points on average. You can potentially take out everyone in the room (and possibly set the building on fire) even at 1st level*. Its one of the few (only?) 1st level area damage spells. Also helps with those low-CR swarms (Bat swarms are CR 2, spider swarms are CR 1).

*Granted, monsters usually aren't commoners, and have slightly higher hit points.

As our group began exploring Pathfinder it became clear that those CR 1 Spider Swarms would clear a party of 6 2nd Level adventures. Burning Hands may not be a great spell but it's a must have at early levels if looks like Vermin are going to be on the menu.

[Twilightwyrm]

Consider yourself corrected:

Thanks, I was having trouble finding 3.0 material online.

[Bakkan]

There are three things to consider when asking yourself "should I prepare burning hands"? as a wizard or "should I choose burning hands as a spell known" as a sorcerer.

First: Opponent characteristics.
Burning hands does not do a lot of damage. Assuming that you have nothing boosting your burning hands caster level, the spell does 2.5 damage per level. No monster type has a hit die lower than d6, and only one type has a hit die lower than d8. This means that against a foe with the same number of hit dice as you have levels, you are only dealing lethal damage if the foe has a low constitution (or an average constitution and d4 hit dice). Against typical melee brutes (the ones you'll be close enough to actually hit) you'll be dealing about one-third the creature's total hit points (assuming a +2 Con and d8 hit dice or a d12 hit dice and +0 Con). Note that this only applies up to level 5. This means that either you're finishing a job that someone else has started, or you're casting it multiple times while you likely get pummeled. Either way, not a great situation. Therefore, the greater your level is compared to the HD of your enemies, the better burning hands looks.

Note that this all assumes that the opponents fail their saves. Against high-Ref foes, the spell looks even worse, averaging at just 1.25 damage per level.

This analysis also assumes that it is better to, for example, kill one out of four enemies than deal 1/4 max hp damage to all four, since the four will all still be as able to harm your party as they were before.

Second: Number of opponents
Burning hands is an AoE spell. Hence, the numebr of opponents you can catch in the area, the more damage you do. Unfortunately, the area is awkward, both starting at your current position and being a cone. That said, the more opponents you have, the better your situation is.

In the situation that you are fighting just one opponent, or you as the arcane caster are only focusing on one opponent, or when the opponents are too spread out to catch in your 15-ft cone, there are several better options.

First, the staple magic missle deals somewhat less damage (except at 1st level, where it deals more) if the target fails his save against burning hands, but deals more whenever the target succeeds. Additionally, it is useful in more situations, being able to catch multiple weak creatures tht are too far scattered for burning hands. Also, the Medium range on magic missle is excellent.

Second, the spell Kelgore's fire bolt from the Player's Handbook II deals more damage at every level, offers the same Reflex save that burning hands does, and even does something when it fizzles against spell resistance. A Medium range like magic missle means that this spell is strictly superior to burning hands if you're only going to damage one creature.

Third, the lesser orb of <element> from the Spell Compendium uses a ranged touch attack rather than a save, which is often preferable as many mages have high(ish) Dex. This spell deals more damage than burning hands at 1st, 3rd, and 5th caster level, and nearly as much damage on 2nd and 4th levels. Again, the Close range makes this spell attractive compared to burning hands.

Third: Party makeup
As the number of people in your party increases, several things happen. First, they're more likely to clutter up the battlefield, what with the rogue flanking with the warblade and the cleric getting in there for spot-heals. Many times, there will simply not be a way for you to get two or more enemies in a 15-ft cone without catching one of your allies in the blast. The other thing that happens as the number of people in a grouop increases is that individual roles become narrower. Further, most classes' contributions to combat involve dealing damage. When a sorcerer and druid team up as a duo, the sorcerer may be called upon to do damage so that fights don't last longer than necessary. When the sorcerer is one of a party of six, three of whom are melee fighters and one of which is a warlock, he is generally better off doing things other than damage in combat.

In conclusion, I find that burning hands is a good spell when I am facing large numbers of tightly-packed low-HD creatures in a small party. The spell is simply to situational for me to spend a precious spell slot as a low-level wizard or spell known as a sorcerer except in very rare cases.

[TypoNinja]

A decent summary, but you've left out that its most important function to me.

AoE means it works good on a swarm.

[Bakkan]

A decent summary, but you've left out that its most important function to me.

AoE means it works good on a swarm.

A valid point (that I forgot about), though swarms would have to be a major proportipon of my enemies for me to take it as a sorcerer or memorize it as a wizard.

[Deophaun]

At levels 1-2, color spray will still be a good choice if you're up against a swarm, so I don't see a reason to devote a limited resource to memorizing burning hands. And if I was concerned about swarms, I'd grab a few flasks of oil.

[Flickerdart]

At levels 1-2, color spray will still be a good choice if you're up against a swarm, so I don't see a reason to devote a limited resource to memorizing burning hands. And if I was concerned about swarms, I'd grab a few flasks of oil.
Color Spray is a mind-affecting spell, so it does you no good against most swarms.

[Deophaun]

Color Spray is a mind-affecting spell, so it does you no good against most swarms.
Against the swarms you come across at that level, most swarms are not mindless. Against anything that is mindless, you use silent image to make them ignore you.

Still, color spray cannot be replaced with a 1sp expenditure. Burning hands can.

[TypoNinja]

At levels 1-2, color spray will still be a good choice if you're up against a swarm, so I don't see a reason to devote a limited resource to memorizing burning hands. And if I was concerned about swarms, I'd grab a few flasks of oil.

Flasks of oil are actually a lot less reliable than you'd think. It takes time to prepare them for use as a splash weapon, and they have a chance of not igniting even then.

[Deophaun]

Flasks of oil are actually a lot less reliable than you'd think.
Dump on ground, drop torch or prestidigitate fire. 100% reliable.

It takes time to prepare them for use as a splash weapon,Can be done ahead of time. If you know enough to prepare burning hands, you know enough to spend a few rounds preparing your flasks.

and they have a chance of not igniting even then.
True. As a splash weapon, they have a 50% failure rate. But, you don't need to be next to the swarm to use it. You could use launch item to attack at a safe range.

Also, clever use of twine can greatly increase the reliability. They only weigh 1lb each. You could probably get away with tying four in a bunch and then attaching to a long rope handle to help you fling it. Make sure someone's taking 20s on their Use Rope to set it up. 5lbs certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility for a thrown weapon (Spear is six lbs with 20ft increment)

[TypoNinja]

I must admit to being a bit of a pyro with most casters, so I also like that its fire.

I once played a slightly insane (more of a "why would you think that would be a good idea?" insane than a gibbering mad man) cleric to a fire god with a bit of a pyromaniac streak. His motto was "Everything Burns" And thanks to Demon Wrecker levels, everything could :D

So It could be I'm just slightly biased towards being able to spew fire from my hands :D

[Story]

So you were basically Nuclear Dan (http://agc.deskslave.org/)?

[TypoNinja]

So you were basically Nuclear Dan (http://agc.deskslave.org/)?

Not familiar with that comic.

The character was a bit of a sociopath, CN alignment, but he was also a nice guy unless you did something to set him off. He wasn't crazy/stupid, he liked fire, but knew that burning down the town wouldn't be worth the trouble it'd cause. He started adventuring when he figured out that nobody cares if you BBQ the bad guys.

[HunterOfJello]

At levels 1-4, Color Spray > Burning Hands

At levels 5+ Color Spray becomes quite useless against equivalent CR monsters

At levels 5+ Hail of Stone is no longer too costly to cast so, Hail of Stone > Burning Hands



~

In conclusion, if you're in a core-only game it has a place after level 4 or so, but it's outdone by other spells for the most part.