Hexblade, I don't even...

[Triplebubble]

Hi, friends!

Playing a game of 3.5e with my friends and my previous character (paladin) died. I wanted to reroll Hexblade (starting at lvl5) but I don't know the class very much and I doubt his capabilities.

I stumbled upon this Hexblade guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7412) and I found it very useful. Although, I'm a fairly new player and I still have some doubt and questions.

Note that the questions are directly related to the linked guide.


First off, if you have a look at the Iconic Hexblade build example, notice the character is wearing a Breastplate. Doesn't the hexblade suffers from the arcane spell failure chance if he wears non-light armor? How does he counter that in the build? Mithril*? Battle Caster feat (but he doesn't have it in this build...).

From the WotC FAQ:
"Is a character proficient with light armor, such as a
rogue, considered to be proficient with mithral breastplate?
What about a character proficient with medium armor,
such as a barbarian—is he considered proficient with
mithral full plate armor?

The description of mithral on page 284 of the DMG is less
precise than it could be in defining how it interacts with armor
proficiency rules. The simplest answer—and the one that the
Sage expects most players and DMs use—is that mithral armor
is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including
proficiency. This isn’t exactly what the DMG says, but it’s a
reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it’s
supported by a number of precedents, including the
descriptions of various specific mithral armors described on
page 220 of the DMG and a variety of NPC stat blocks).
Thus, a ranger or rogue could wear a mithral breastplate
without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as light armor), and each could use any ability dependent on
wearing light or no armor (such as evasion or the ranger’s
combat style). A barbarian could wear mithral full plate armor
without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as
medium armor), and he could use any ability dependent on
wearing medium or lighter armor (such as fast movement).
The same would be true of any other special material that
uses the same or similar language as mithral (such as darkleaf,
on page 120 of the ECS)."

Also, my GM doesn't allow the Player's Guide to Faerûn. The build suggests taking Dreadful Wrath (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/dreadful-wrath--751/) has a regional feat. Would you guys have anything else to suggest?

What exactly are the Warning Gauntlets the guide is referring to?

You guys have any enhancement to suggest for a Hexblade? The sudden stunning is from DMGII and we're not using it.

In the exemple, the character fights with a guisarme; I get the synergy with the curse. Although, how exactly does one fight without being able to attack adjacent foes? Always use a 5foot step? Problem is, if I use a 5foot step, I won't be able to intimidate that turn. Should I buy something like a +1 scythe and use keen strike when I'm caught in close?

Do you guys have anything to suggest me as my dark companion? I'll mainly use it to flank and intimidate.

I'm starting with 9000gp. Any items to suggest? I thought about Hexbands (MIC).

If you have any tips for me, please, go on.


Thanks for taking the time to read. Any input will be very much appreciated.

[Piggy Knowles]

Re: Warning Gauntlets:

Typically, this refers to getting gauntlets (or armor spikes - I usually prefer armor spikes) and adding the "warning" enhancement to them for a cheap initiative boost.

Re: attacking adjacent enemies:

Armor spikes, gauntlets and 5-foot steps all make this easier. If you can get access to Fearsome Armor (from Drow of the Underdark, IIRC), then you can Intimidate as a move action. That will allow you to attack or curse as a standard, Intimidate as your move action, and still take a 5-foot step.

If you're still really concerned, though, then consider taking a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain). You'll have a free feat anyhow, if you can't take Dreadful Wrath.

Re: armor:

I assume it's either a mistake, or they meant mithral breastplate.

[docnessuno]

Also, if you want to play a "gish-in-a-can" and the hexblade doesn't satisfy you, i could suggest the Duskblade (PHB2). I personally prefer it over his cursing cousin, and is a class that really shines around level 3-6 (but doesn't fall off at higher levels, not anymore than other non-full casters at least)

[Hiro Protagonest]

First off, if you have a look at the Iconic Hexblade build example, notice the character is wearing a Breastplate. Doesn't the hexblade suffers from the arcane spell failure chance if he wears non-light armor? How does he counter that in the build? Mithril*? Battle Caster feat (but he doesn't have it in this build...).

That implies that WotC knows what they're doing with their classes. Some of the sample PrC characters don't meet the requirements for their own PrC.

[Piggy Knowles]

That implies that WotC knows what they're doing with their classes. Some of the sample PrC characters don't meet the requirements for their own PrC.

I don't think he means WotC's sample build, but rather the "Iconic Hexblade" build in Dictum Mortuum's guide. Which, by the way, does specify that it's using mithral breastplate, so there's your answer.

[DrDeth]

Yes, use the designers own unofficial fixes:

http://irongamersguild.wikidot.com/forum/t-248314/unofficial-fix-for-hexblades-from-an-official-source

From WotC_Mearls (D&D Lead Designer)
The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life. As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually work in play.
Armored mages fall into the first category. Them seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed.
If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:
• Good Fortitude save
• Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
• Curse ability usable as a swift action
• Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
• Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
• At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.
The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage.
(These are by no means official. They're just off the top of my head changes I'd consider making.)

[TroubleBrewing]

And just like that, I'm going to suggest a Hexblade to one of my players for the first time ever.

[limejuicepowder]

At risk of derailing the thread, I've had a hexblade character idea kicking around for awhile that I've love to play. His basic concept is "sorcerer wannabe;" essentially, he comes from a prestigious line of sorcerers and would love to live up to his family, but....he's just not that good at magic. And he's terribly unlucky.

Early in his career, he showed no magical talent at all. His only real ability was bad things happening to him, all the time. Eventually, he managed to channel his unluckiness in to a spell of sorts - now other people can share in his unluckiness. Due to this being his only spell, and it was mostly useless, he decided to undergo a more martial training regime to make up the difference.

Later, after finally learning some proper magic, his family decided it was time for him to bind a familiar. It was a disaster; he only succeeded in attracting the attention of a quasi-shade that follows him everywhere. Fortunately it listens to his commands, at least, all of the commands that aren't "go away forever."

Despite these misfortunes, he has stayed upbeat and positive. In the back of his mind he's always expecting the worst (and usual gets it), his father said his greatest curse was always bouncing back and hoping for the best.

[Triplebubble]

Re: Warning Gauntlets:

Typically, this refers to getting gauntlets (or armor spikes - I usually prefer armor spikes) and adding the "warning" enhancement to them for a cheap initiative boost.


First, thanks Piggy for answering me.

If I understand right, you mean adding armor spikes to normal gauntlets and apply the warning enhancement to them? Right?



Re: attacking adjacent enemies:

Armor spikes, gauntlets and 5-foot steps all make this easier. If you can get access to Fearsome Armor (from Drow of the Underdark, IIRC), then you can Intimidate as a move action. That will allow you to attack or curse as a standard, Intimidate as your move action, and still take a 5-foot step.


I thought one couldn't take a 5-foot step after a move action. So you confirm I could Intimidate (with Fearsome Armor) and 5-foot step on the same turn?



If you're still really concerned, though, then consider taking a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain). You'll have a free feat anyhow, if you can't take Dreadful Wrath.

This idea is pretty interesting. While I could make my opponents trip with the Guisarme, I could disarm them with the Spike Chain.

I have a dilemma now. Scythe, Guisarme or Spiked Chain.

Scythe can be used to make trip attack. Has a x4 crit.
Guisarme has 10f range, can trip attack.
Spiked Chain requires a feat but has 10f range, can make trip attack and +2 to disarm.

Help.


Also, if you want to play a "gish-in-a-can" and the hexblade doesn't satisfy you, i could suggest the Duskblade (PHB2). I personally prefer it over his cursing cousin, and is a class that really shines around level 3-6 (but doesn't fall off at higher levels, not anymore than other non-full casters at least)

Thanks for the idea my friend. I'm pretty much set on Hexblade but I'll definately look it up for future characters ideas.


At risk of derailing the thread, I've had a hexblade character idea kicking around for awhile that I've love to play. His basic concept is "sorcerer wannabe;" essentially, he comes from a prestigious line of sorcerers and would love to live up to his family, but....he's just not that good at magic. And he's terribly unlucky.

Early in his career, he showed no magical talent at all. His only real ability was bad things happening to him, all the time. Eventually, he managed to channel his unluckiness in to a spell of sorts - now other people can share in his unluckiness. Due to this being his only spell, and it was mostly useless, he decided to undergo a more martial training regime to make up the difference.

Later, after finally learning some proper magic, his family decided it was time for him to bind a familiar. It was a disaster; he only succeeded in attracting the attention of a quasi-shade that follows him everywhere. Fortunately it listens to his commands, at least, all of the commands that aren't "go away forever."

Despite these misfortunes, he has stayed upbeat and positive. In the back of his mind he's always expecting the worst (and usual gets it), his father said his greatest curse was always bouncing back and hoping for the best.

Well, thanks for derailing the thread. It was a very interesting story. If you allow me, I might borrow some elements of your story for my own.

[Snowbluff]

If you are doubting Hexblade your head is in the right place. It's like being a paladin without all of the cool splat support.

[Flickerdart]

If you get to use Mearls' fix, check out the Hexbands from the MIC. They give you a nice boost to your damage against stuff that you've cursed.

[Piggy Knowles]

Regarding Fearsome Armor, move action Intimidate and the 5-foot step, here's the relevant bit from the SRD:


You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

[Triplebubble]

If you are doubting Hexblade your head is in the right place. It's like being a paladin without all of the cool splat support.


If you get to use Mearls' fix, check out the Hexbands from the MIC. They give you a nice boost to your damage against stuff that you've cursed.

I doubt my GM will allow me to use Mearls' fix. I'm not sure I want to play a "broken", under powered class. Thanks for the tip on the hexbands. I was already getting me some, though. :)


Regarding Fearsome Armor, move action Intimidate and the 5-foot step, here's the relevant bit from the SRD:

Thanks!

[hymer]

I thought one couldn't take a 5-foot step after a move action.

You can't 5-foot step after you've moved, and you can't move after you've 5-foot stepped in the same round. You can still use your move action to do other things, however.

[JellyPooga]

I've always liked the idea of giving the Hexblade a "half-caster" version of the Warlocks Invocations, instead of their spellcasting. Instead of Eldritch Blast, give them something similar to a Hideous Blow 'shaped' Blast (except make it a swift action to activate), with similar damage progression to Eldritch Blast.
I've never really given the idea the thought it deserves, but I thought 2 Invocations per spell level seemed about right (i.e. gain first Invocation at 4th level, one at 6th, then 8th and 10th, 11th and 13th and 14th and 16th), restricting to Least for the first three, Lesser for the next three and Greater for the last two.

[limejuicepowder]

I've always liked the idea of giving the Hexblade a "half-caster" version of the Warlocks Invocations, instead of their spellcasting. Instead of Eldritch Blast, give them something similar to a Hideous Blow 'shaped' Blast (except make it a swift action to activate), with similar damage progression to Eldritch Blast.
I've never really given the idea the thought it deserves, but I thought 2 Invocations per spell level seemed about right (i.e. gain first Invocation at 4th level, one at 6th, then 8th and 10th, 11th and 13th and 14th and 16th), restricting to Least for the first three, Lesser for the next three and Greater for the last two.

This....is awesome. Though I'm not sure what you mean about the eldritch blast. It would be eldritch blast but only usable in melee? Would it allow interactive attacks? I think it might be more fun ditch the eldritch blast entirely and work off of the curse.

-Curse is usable at-will, as a swift action. Most of the eldritch essence invocation can be left as they are, adding rider effects to the base curse - but if a essence is added, the curse casting time changes to a standard action.
-Blast shapes would only have to be tweaked slightly, if at all. Increased range would only be useful in very specific situations and thus generally not worth it, but chain, cone, and doom would all be very good.

The are several utility-type invocations that would be very helpful to have on a full BaB chassis, so this would be really cool.

[JellyPooga]

I'm not sure what you mean about the eldritch blast.

As a swift action, the next melee attack (I might consider allowing ranged attacks too; e.g. with a bow or x-bow) you make deals additional damage. I wouldn't allow iterative attacks, without taking an Invocation like Eldritch Glaive.

I'd preserve the ranged Eldritch Blast for the Warlock, whilst the Hexblade gets the melee version. I'd consider giving the option to take an Invocation that lets the Hexblade use his ability as a ranged attack, like the Warlock, but I'm not sure.


-Curse is usable at-will, as a swift action. Most of the eldritch essence invocation can be left as they are, adding rider effects to the base curse - but if a essence is added, the curse casting time changes to a standard action.
-Blast shapes would only have to be tweaked slightly, if at all. Increased range would only be useful in very specific situations and thus generally not worth it, but chain, cone, and doom would all be very good.

I'm not sure about Curse being usable at will without nerfing its effect some, instead relying on adding "Curse Essence" to bump up the effects.


The are several utility-type invocations that would be very helpful to have on a full BaB chassis, so this would be really cool.

I also felt that the theme behind the Hexblade (the whole "pact with dark entities") also gelled better with Invocations and the whole Warlock schtick. As I say, it needs more thought than I've thus far put into it to really get the idea balanced, but I think it has merit, certainly.

[limejuicepowder]

As a swift action, the next melee attack (I might consider allowing ranged attacks too; e.g. with a bow or x-bow) you make deals additional damage. I wouldn't allow iterative attacks, without taking an Invocation like Eldritch Glaive.

I'd preserve the ranged Eldritch Blast for the Warlock, whilst the Hexblade gets the melee version. I'd consider giving the option to take an Invocation that lets the Hexblade use his ability as a ranged attack, like the Warlock, but I'm not sure.

I think this would make the hexblade too similar to the warlock; the warlock's shtick is eldritch energy, and the hexblade's should be the curse. Also, adding a couple of d6's to a normal swing is kind of boring.



I'm not sure about Curse being usable at will without nerfing its effect some, instead relying on adding "Curse Essence" to bump up the effects.

Being affected by the curse is basically the same as the shaken condition, except it doesn't stack with itself to become more debilitating. It would still require a will save. And really, if it was any weaker would anyone bother with the base curse? (-1 attack, damage, and saves at level 6? I don't think so). I would be slightly concerned about spam-cursing if it was combined with some of the more potent essences, which is why I bumped an essense-curse up to a standard action. In most cases, it would not even be worth the swift action to use it on mooks (unless you can get a whole pack of em with a curseshape), which means it would still only see use against bosses. I say let the hexblade use their trademark feature early and often.

[JellyPooga]

I think this would make the hexblade too similar to the warlock; the warlock's shtick is eldritch energy, and the hexblade's should be the curse. Also, adding a couple of d6's to a normal swing is kind of boring.

Mmm, I see your point. Still, Sneak Attack is just extra damage and pretty much the entire point of the Rogue class. I'd still like to see the option for a Hexblade to infuse his weapon with baleful energy...perhaps give him the option to reduce the penalty from his Curse to deal extra damage? A bit like the Ambush Feats a Rogue has access to, but in reverse (i.e. replace penalties with extra damage).


Being affected by the curse is basically the same as the shaken condition, except it doesn't stack with itself to become more debilitating. It would still require a will save. And really, if it was any weaker would anyone bother with the base curse? (-1 attack, damage, and saves at level 6? I don't think so).

I agree. The Hexblades Curse improves with level anyway, so I see no reason for that to change. Perhaps at level 1 it inflicts a -1 penalty, increasing by 1 for every 5 levels (i.e. -2 at level5, -3 at level 10, etc.).


I would be slightly concerned about spam-cursing if it was combined with some of the more potent essences, which is why I bumped an essense-curse up to a standard action. In most cases, it would not even be worth the swift action to use it on mooks (unless you can get a whole pack of em with a curseshape), which means it would still only see use against bosses. I say let the hexblade use their trademark feature early and often.

I don't think the Hexblades Curse should be something you use against mooks on a regular basis. That's what the Eldritch "Strike" was there for, to my mind. The Curses should be used to debuff the big-bads that can't just be dealt with by dealing extra damage, you know?

[Triplebubble]

Sorry for not replying to your previous posts. Thing is, my DM wouldn't allow any modifications whatsoever to any class.

That said, I had my first game with the hexblade yesterday and I like it. Although, I'm having some issues and I could use some advices.

My AC is very low. I'm currently at 15. I'm wearing a Chain Vest right now. Planning on getting a Fearsome Mithral Breastplate soon. I have around 1000gp. You guys have anything to suggest to boost my AC a little?

[Phelix-Mu]

Too bad. The unofficial tweaks to the class are a thing of beauty. I have always liked the "unluck"/evil eye/curse thing, fits well with some Roma/gypsy themes, if you don't like the minion of darkness thing. Wish the class melded better with luckstealer PrC.

In terms of AC boosts, I assume you are fighting w/out shield? Picking up a masterwork shield for a few levels can take the edge off not being to afford the best defensive equips. Even if you only wield it until you get your curse off, then drop it and switch to two-handing the weapon, that would be good. Can't be beat for cheap. You might even be able to swallow the non-proficiency penalty in certain encounters. Wasn't there also an enchant to allow proficiency with a shield? Would significantly raise the price, though.

In the way of cheap, potions of barkskin or shield of faith can also be affordable solutions, saved for the hard encounters. Extra cool if you know someone that can brew them for you. Sadly no UMD love for hexblade.

[nedz]

I've always liked the idea of giving the Hexblade a "half-caster" version of the Warlocks Invocations, instead of their spellcasting. Instead of Eldritch Blast, give them something similar to a Hideous Blow 'shaped' Blast (except make it a swift action to activate), with similar damage progression to Eldritch Blast.
I've never really given the idea the thought it deserves, but I thought 2 Invocations per spell level seemed about right (i.e. gain first Invocation at 4th level, one at 6th, then 8th and 10th, 11th and 13th and 14th and 16th), restricting to Least for the first three, Lesser for the next three and Greater for the last two.

I'll just leave this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?110567-Invoking-Hexblades) here.