I need to *cheaply* tunnel through solid rock..

[andromax]

Just as the thread suggests. To circumvent a temple entrance that is not only trapped/defended/stupid, but is the only way in an out of the temple (Non magically). We are level 4 at the moment and don't have access to teleportation within the group.

We just hit 4th level, and playing tier 3 classes.

My idea is to hire 12 kobolds, and using the rules of Profession (miner) from races of the dragon, have them work in teams of 4, 8 hour shifts, for 24 hours a day.

Using the rules on pg98 and assuming it's hard metamorphic rock most of the way down, we have a DC of 25 for 1 team of 4 kobolds to excavate a 5' square during their 8 hour shift, with a result of 5 higher than that cumulatively adding an additional 5' square in 8 hours.

Now, with kobolds being able to work in groups of 4, 3 of them using the aid another (is that an automatic bonus or do they need to roll a d20+mod and score a 15 or higher to aid in this?) that's a max of +6. Supposing the foreman has the feat skill focus (profession: Miner) with a wis of 12 and maxed out ranks (4) with a masterwork skill tool (profession miner) and possibly a +2 competence item that we could provide, we have a total of +16 that this 1st level foreman can get with static bonuses.

I want to see if I can get that higher. Are there any more lvl 1 feats that an NPC may have? Cheap magic items whose bonuses would stack, and are static? Anything I'm missing?

My goal is 1,000' tunnel in 2-3 weeks, so id need to be getting atleast that DC of 30 every time.

Please no one suggest a beholder :)

[Piggy Knowles]

Soften Earth and Stone + dire badger? Summon Nature's Ally III for a thoqqua?

[andromax]

Soften Earth and Stone + dire badger? Summon Nature's Ally III for a thoqqua?



Magical, enchanted, dressed, or worked stone cannot be affected.


We'd have to buy a wand, plus it wouldn't be guaranteed to work atleast part of the way because there may be a lot of the above. And theres no way in hell the party is gonna agree to spend 4500gp that we dont have on a wand, for a plan that may not work... its a good idea if we had someone in the group that could cast it half a dozen times a day though.

If the NPCs get paid per the rules of PH1 profession skill, then were lookin at paying them about 15-20gp a week per shift (45-60gp per week total). The cost of 200gp for 4 sweet ass pick axes (masterwork skill tools) and a 400gp +2 competence item (maybe a headlamp?) for the foreman is going to be target prices here. Stuff we can sell back later on ideally.

[Norin]

What tier 3 classes? What is the party composition exactly? Any magic items available for purchase? How much gold?

I like your idea, but i suspect there are easier and / or quicker ways. ;)

[andromax]

What tier 3 classes? What is the party composition exactly? Any magic items available for purchase? How much gold?

I like your idea, but i suspect there are easier and / or quicker ways. ;)

We have less than 1k gp currently, magic items 900gp or less are usually always available, more than that are subject to DM approval.

Mostly a bunch of cross classed melee oriented (we're trying to not over optimize in this campaign :smallsmile:) builds. No 2nd level spells.

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm. Soften Earth and Stone could at least supplement the digging attempt, and your kobold miners could handle any "dressed" stone, but if the cost is out of range there's not much you can do about that.

The thoqqua plan would be similarly cost-prohibitive, which is shame, because they have no such restriction from tunneling through dressed or worked stone. One CL5 casting of SNA3 for a thoqqua could burn through 200' of solid rock. In other words, a single level 5 druid could, in a couple of minutes, accomplish what would take weeks for a team of 12 kobold miners.

[andromax]

Hmm. Soften Earth and Stone could at least supplement the digging attempt, and your kobold miners could handle any "dressed" stone, but if the cost is out of range there's not much you can do about that.

The thoqqua plan would be similarly cost-prohibitive, which is shame, because they have no such restriction from tunneling through dressed or worked stone. One CL5 casting of SNA3 for a thoqqua could burn through 200' of solid rock. In other words, a single level 5 druid could, in a couple of minutes, accomplish what would take weeks for a team of 12 kobold miners.

Ha, maybe I should look for a druid to hire, or try to start a quest in that vein.. that'd probably be .. ((5x30gp)x5 casts ends up at 750gp for a 1,000' tunnel. PH spell casting prices) similar cost.. or free if we kill some poachers for him :)

But supposing that can't happen either - I'm still looking for ideas to make this work with kobolds.

[dungeonnerd]

Depending on alignment, YMMV with these suggestions.

Hire a Dragon descended Kobold with an Acid breath weapon to eat through the stone?

Save more costs - capture some kobold slaves!

Does anyone in your group have UMD? Could grab a wand of Charm and use it to get a discount from people you need.

Or your skillmonkey/face should have high ranks in (depending on system) either a Barter skill, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Bluff. Same idea as the wand, but free!

Run a side quest for a town mayor, get paid in miners.

Run a side quest for a kobold encampment, see same.

Better if you can get a town mayor that wants you to kill a kobold camp, then Diplomacy/Intimidate the kobolds into leaving the town alone, thus saving their lives as well as fullfilling the quest, ergo earning you two different sets of miners.

Buy sulfur and saltpeter, make gunpowder, just blow the entrance up after a few good hide/move silent checks? Or buy a wand of minor creation (0 or 1st level), summon the ingredients with a good UMD check, mix and blow.

Meet druid, Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy for his help...

Really, theres nothing that a good bluff/intimidate/diplomacy check can't cure.

[Morph Bark]

I find it shameful that Mountain Hammer has not yet been mentioned.

[Deophaun]

Ha, maybe I should look for a druid to hire, or try to start a quest in that vein.. that'd probably be .. ((5x30gp)x5 casts ends up at 750gp for a 1,000' tunnel. PH spell casting prices) similar cost.. or free if we kill some poachers for him :)
Problem with the Thoqqua plan is the "tunnel" is actually just a 1 foot diameter hole. You need to significantly slow the creature down to get a useable tunnel out of the deal, and you'll probably be left with a long stone core you'll need to move out of the way.

I find it shameful that Mountain Hammer has not yet been mentioned.
Stone has 900 hp per five feet of thickness. Mountain Hammering your way through is still going to take a long time, as is using an adamantine weapon.

OK, some math on the thoqqua: to make a 2.5' diameter hole, which you can squeeze through, the thoqqua will have to use 7.85 feet of movement per 1 foot of tunnel as it corkscrews its way in. So it can get you about 5.1 feet deep per round, or 25.5 feet with a single summoning from a level 5 druid. That's 40 castings at 150 a pop or 6,000 gold. Transmute rock to mud would be cheaper if it wasn't limited to 10 foot depth.

[andromax]

None of us have that manuever unfortunately.

Also, it arguably wouldnt speed the process up much. The person mountain hammering would still have to carry out all the rubble. And we're talking about like 180,000 dmg that you'd have to do, if you were able to argue that you could dmg a nice neat 5' square and not cave the whole place in on yourself half way through.

[andromax]

OK, some math on the thoqqua: to make a 2.5' diameter hole, which you can squeeze through, the thoqqua will have to use 7.85 feet of movement per 1 foot of tunnel as it corkscrews its way in. So it can get you about 5.1 feet deep per round, or 25.5 feet with a single summoning from a level 5 druid. That's 40 castings at 150 a pop or 6,000 gold. Transmute rock to mud would be cheaper if it wasn't limited to 10 foot depth.

Ahh good info, thanks for clearing that up.

[TroubleBrewing]

Find and hire a first-level Kobold Warblade, Swordsage, or Crusader. Have him use mountain hammer. Heck, if you can afford 12, hire 6 to hit and 6 to carry stuff out.

[Telok]

A scroll of Animate Dead will set you back about 650gp and can get you a bunch of zombie or skeleton kobolds. Or badgers, they burrow. Or both.

A wand of Disguise Self is 750gp, or 150gp for a partially charged one with 10 charges left. It's not a tunnel but you can sneak in and out, or try to.

You can get one of the Amber Amulets of Vermin from the Magic Item Compendium. The wasp flies and the centepede climbs, unless the temple is underground and then they still make good distractions while you make a get away.

If you're willing to spend money see if you can't bribe someone to let you in. You could buy out the carter who delivers the wine and smuggle the party inside in empty wine barrels.

And how are you going to hide to tunnel entrance and mining activity for the couple of weeks it takes to dig that far?

[Coidzor]

Well, there's always flooding/smoking the enemy out if they're living entities.

[Deophaun]

Ahh good info, thanks for clearing that up.
Not quite done here. That's a level 5 druid casting SNA III. If you have a level 7 druid casting SNA IV to get multiple thoqquas, I believe it drops to 4200 (assumes average of 2 thoqquas per casting). If you have a level 9 druid casting SNA V, 3150 gp (3.5 thoqquas per casting). So, do you know any 9th level druids?

[andromax]

So, do you know any 9th level druids?

No, though one of our contacts may, potentially...


You could buy out the carter who delivers the wine and smuggle the party inside in empty wine barrels.
It's actually the getting out of the temple through the entrance which is the biggest problem. It's via a 200' handcrank equipment elevator shaft.
We've discussed getting potions of fly, but thats expensive, and we'd still be using the only entrance/exit which they control. And theyre expecting us.



And how are you going to hide to tunnel entrance and mining activity for the couple of weeks it takes to dig that far?
This may or may not be an issue, but it will take its own strategy..

[ericgrau]

At level 4 mundane digging is probably the cheapest.

The only magical cheap way I can think of doing it is the 13,000 gp lyre of building. The advantage is that it's much faster.

[andromax]

At level 4 mundane digging is probably the cheapest.


I agree, I'm hoping there are more stackable bonuses to this that I haven't thought of.

[Vizzerdrix]

Shapesand and/or stonebreaker acid.

[Coidzor]

If you can't handle the guards either through attrition or multiple enagements or some other method, how are you going to deal with them setting up a chokepoint on the area you're tunneling towards?

If they know you're there and want in but aren't going through the main entrance or trying to force them out then trying to tunnel in is the next place to jump to...

[animewatcha]

If you would check under Dungeonscape for Fighter ACFs, you guys can't hire dungeoncrashers to bypass dungeon sterfs?

[andromax]

stonebreaker acid.
That's at a cost of about 20gp per inch of excavation

[andromax]

If you can't handle the guards either through attrition or multiple enagements or some other method, how are you going to deal with them setting up a chokepoint on the area you're tunneling towards?

The tunnel is merely dealing with the problem, that there may very well be no other way back out, other than 200' vertical mineshaft that opens into a room with a 50' ceiling... we escaped once. We need to go back in. My vote is to make a new hole. Maybe they will detect us, maybe they wont. Id rather fight them in our tunnel than in their shaft of doom if it comes to that. They will certainly know we are coming if we use the front door and our escape should it be necessary will be awkward or impossible. I cant fly or climb slick walls fast enough to survive multiple rounds of arrows and crossbows and whatever else.. Lol

[CthulhuEatYou]

Hire 1000 miners for less 100 gp, its cheaper than magic ;)

[andromax]

Hire 1000 miners for less 100 gp, its cheaper than magic ;)

The way the mechanic works, you can only have 2 medium sized, or 4 small sized creatures working on the same square at any give time.


I guess if there is no other way to apply a static bonus to a Profession (Miner) than a MW skill tool and a competence bonus item, than I guess my question is answered.

[Glimbur]

How are your climb checks? You could pile up a bunch of green wood, light it, and drop it down the hole.

Then walk away.

Come back an hour later, and do it again.

Do this several times, so they don't know when you are bluffing. Then rappel down the shaft (hence the climb checks) and fight them in the smoke. Hopefully it will reduce their numerical and terrain advantages.

[andromax]

Then rappel down the shaft (hence the climb checks) and fight them in the smoke.

Well, they have plenty of undead.. who don't mind that sort of thing at all.

I think all I need really is to find a way to boost a skill a little bit more.

[ManInOrange]

OK, some math on the thoqqua: to make a 2.5' diameter hole, which you can squeeze through, the thoqqua will have to use 7.85 feet of movement per 1 foot of tunnel as it corkscrews its way in. So it can get you about 5.1 feet deep per round, or 25.5 feet with a single summoning from a level 5 druid. That's 40 castings at 150 a pop or 6,000 gold. Transmute rock to mud would be cheaper if it wasn't limited to 10 foot depth.

You assume that the thoqqua has to actually travel the whole circumference of the tunnel, and also only in an actual circle. to muster 7.85 feet per foot, it would need to do 1000 closed loops to make 1000 feet. An actual corkscrew will slightly more 'umph', (EDIT: SQRT[7.85^2 + 1]) and would result in an uneven inner surface where there are the extremes of 1.25 and 1.5 feet from the axis of the corkscrew. The MAIN issue here is that there would be a core with a radius between 1.25 and 1.0 throughout the entire length. This would be quite an obstacle in a tunnel that characters are already having to squeeze through.

An alternative way of looking at it, if your DM will accept strict RAW shenanigans, is if the thoqqua were to travel a distance and then "roll around" the desired girth of tunnel.

There isn't a direction vector for how characters are facing - and thus no requirement for a creature to be facing a certain direction to move that direction.
The thoqqua is described as 4-5 feet long (let's assume 4.)
The thoqqua's own radius is 0.5 feet.
Assuming the movement of the creatures center of mass is what matters...
-
Because of these facts and assumption, the thoqqua could burrow 4 feet, then travel the 4.71 feet around the circumference of a 1.5 foot diameter cylinder, with it's own radius taking care of the extra diameter needed. This gives a total of ~2.18 feet of tunnel per foot of movement. (4 feet of movement along the tunnel + 4.71 feet of movement in a 4.5 foot diameter circle. Divide by 4 for movement/tunnel value.)
OR, the thoqqua could make an analogous corkscrew motion resulting in SQRT(4^2 + 4.71^2) = 6.18 feet of movement per cycle, creating 4 feet of tunnel on average for long tunnels. There's a further optimization involving the thoqqua's body curving along the cylinder and making similar cycles, but I'll have to tackle that later.

Even this would produce a .25 radius core, albeit a cylindrical one, and therefore easier to extract.

[Coidzor]

Well, if you had 2nd level spells, guidance of the avatar would be of use here. Low level spells that give bonuses on checks... hmm... guidance is a +1 competence bonus, of course.

A variant of unseen crafter/unseen servant that did profession miner would be something to consider since from what I recall all of that family of spells are 1st level. If you can't acquire it directly though, researching that specific variant would probably take a bit of time though, though you might be able to argue for faster spell research from having knowledge of or copies of unseen servant and the other unseen X spells.

Odds are though that you'd have to weather and survive enough attacks to last even a week at tunneling that you'd be wiped out or driven off if you didn't make enough of a dint in their forces that you could take out what they had on the front door.

[Darrin]

OK, some math on the thoqqua: to make a 2.5' diameter hole, which you can squeeze through, the thoqqua will have to use 7.85 feet of movement per 1 foot of tunnel as it corkscrews its way in. So it can get you about 5.1 feet deep per round, or 25.5 feet with a single summoning from a level 5 druid. That's 40 castings at 150 a pop or 6,000 gold. Transmute rock to mud would be cheaper if it wasn't limited to 10 foot depth.

How about soften earth and stone + dire badgers? 2nd level spells... hmm, area is a bit wonky, but assume 3rd level caster, 30' area to a depth of 1', 60 GP per casting, x5 = section of burrowable clay, SNAII for the dire badger who can dig that out in 3 rounds (10' burrow speed, assuming two move actions per round). So... about 360 GP for a tunnel 30' long, 10' wide, and 5' high. How long does this tunnel need to be?

[Coidzor]

How about soften earth and stone + dire badgers? 2nd level spells... hmm, area is a bit wonky, but assume 3rd level caster, 30' area to a depth of 1', 60 GP per casting, x5 = section of burrowable clay, SNAII for the dire badger who can dig that out in 3 rounds (10' burrow speed, assuming two move actions per round). So... about 360 GP for a tunnel 30' long, 10' wide, and 5' high. How long does this tunnel need to be?

1000 feet. So roughly 12240 gp for the 34 (33 and some change) repetitions.


My goal is 1,000' tunnel in 2-3 weeks, so id need to be getting atleast that DC of 30 every time.

If you can speak terran, undercommon, or can come up with some other way of communicating with it, there's always hiring or bargaining with a Delver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/delver.htm).

[ericgrau]

How about you pool together 3000 gp for an adamantine pickaxe? I doubt the guide has rules for it but it's probably several times faster than a steel pickaxe considering stone's hardness. Based on str 10 pickaxe damage and stone hp, to go 1000 feet (10x10 tunnel) it should take 1000*12*10/3.5 = 34285 rounds = 3429 minutes = 57 hours = 2.4 days if the workers work round the clock in shifts.

[Gavinfoxx]

Other than a Thoqqua, a Bluespawn Ambusher can also tunnel through stone. Find a Planar Shepherd attuned to a plane that has them, pay him to tunnel through it while wildshaped...

[demigodus]

Hire a level 1 Marshal: Add his charisma modifier to their Profession (Mining) checks. That is another +2 or +3 there. While you pay him to sit and read a book.

[ericgrau]

Technically the martial needs to guide the kobolds. "There's a weak spot over there!" Constantly... for hours on end... from somehow who doesn't actually know anything about mining he just has a strong personality.

Mysteriously dead marshalls don't need pay :smallbiggrin:.

[TypoNinja]

In a game where we were excavating, we hit on the idea of adamantine tipped miners picks.

Pay the cost of ammo since its only a covering/tipping not an entire weapon, ignore hardness of rock.

Bringing the DC of your granite down to that of Gravel. Now you can overshoot the DC by a wide enough margin to really get some speed going.

[Deophaun]

How about soften earth and stone + dire badgers? 2nd level spells... hmm, area is a bit wonky, but assume 3rd level caster, 30' area to a depth of 1', 60 GP per casting, x5 = section of burrowable clay, SNAII for the dire badger who can dig that out in 3 rounds (10' burrow speed, assuming two move actions per round). So... about 360 GP for a tunnel 30' long, 10' wide, and 5' high. How long does this tunnel need to be?
The problem here is what is meant by "depth." If you interpret it as the spell's vertical dimension, then you might as well use transmute rock to mud, which is a lot cheaper. If, however, you interpret depth to be surface penetration, then you're looking at 1,000 castings of soften earth and stone, which is prohibitively expensive.

[andromax]

adamantine tipped miners picks.


We have a pretty strict DM, but he might actually go for that, since miner's picks are listed as equipment and not a weapon.

Still - not guarunteed but definitely worth running by him.

Also - I just noticed that Kobolds get a +2 racial bonus to profession miner, so If we could hire some lvl 2 Kobold Experts.. 5 ranks, 2 racial, 3 skill focus, 2 skill tool, +2 competence item, +6 from 3 kobolds 'aiding another' the foreman.. lookin at a static +20 for a +30 taking 10. Enough to clear out 2 5' squares.

I've been thinking that by RAMS, the 5' cubes the book gives, could be applied instead as 2 2.5x5' rectangles.. thus doubling the speed, but making it so we'd have to squeeze through.. not a big deal. Would only be able to have 1 of the other kobolds give a bonus for aiding, though - so i'd need to make up that +4 somehow.. otherwise it'd take just as long.

It would make alot more sense to construct it this size, to finish it faster. In that case we could get 60' done per day, looking at just over 2 weeks.

hmm..

[Artillery]

Why not hire some Mineral Warrior's to be your miners? They can burrow at 1/2 land move speed, they are earth subtype so they can burrow through solid rock. They are LA +1.

Hire an ECL 2 Mineral Warrior expert. Lets say its a human with land move speed of 30ft per round. 15ft per round burrow speed. 1/2 that for solid rock. So 5ft per round. 200 rounds aka 20 minutes to do a 1000 ft tunnel.

Have your caster use Enlarge person on him for the duration. You now have a 10x10 tunnel that is 1000ft long. It is also filled with debris. Hire kobolds to clear it.

Other options.

If you hire 4 half-orc warblades of level 3 with power attack and 15 STR. They need to be lvl 3 to get Mountain Hammer. All of them in Punishing Stance. All using a 2d6 2 handed weapon, for ease of rolling. All Full Power attacking to add 6 dmg. They do 5d6+9 dmg, avg dmg of 26.5 ignoring hardness. While refreshing Mountain Hammer they will do 3d6+9 dmg, avg damage 19.5 with 11.5 dmg due to hardness.

46 dmg per cycle, doing this 5 times a minute, with 4 people is 920 dmg a minute. Every .98 minutes is 5 feet. So 3 hours 16 minutes total, with some pack mules to haul the rocks out.

As for the dealing with the elevator shaft. Getting down is just simple feather fall. Most cost effective way would probably Spider Crawl. Level 2 spell that last 10 minutes per level, gives you 20ft climb speed and doesn't cost you your dex to AC or give bonuses to people attacking you.

[andromax]

Hire an ECL 2 Mineral Warrior expert.

Good idea, but Mineral Warriors are very rare in our campaigns, usually 1 per campaign, cause we tend to think of them as OP for a LA+1, And frankly I'd rather reserve that slot for a PC should anyone need to re-roll or what have you.


As for the dealing with the elevator shaft. Getting down is just simple feather fall.
As I've already mentioned, it's getting back up the shaft that is the issue. 50' of ceiling in a large room, is what the shaft opens into. Also - that'd be a 4500gp wand if we wanted to try and use it on the way out.

[Morph Bark]

None of us have that manuever unfortunately.

Also, it arguably wouldnt speed the process up much. The person mountain hammering would still have to carry out all the rubble. And we're talking about like 180,000 dmg that you'd have to do, if you were able to argue that you could dmg a nice neat 5' square and not cave the whole place in on yourself half way through.

Damage is one of the easiest things to optimize, better even than skill checks that the kobold miners would rely on. It's a shame none of you have access to it though.

The argument you give is reasonable, I admit. For that I'd propose using a reach weapon that deals piercing damage to make it more reasonable that you're specifically damaging the 10 ft of rock in front of you. Heck, make it a lance and let a mounted charging warblade/barbarian do it. What are the costs for a level 3 or 4 hireling with PC levels? Or for a level 6 one?


Find and hire a first-level Kobold Warblade, Swordsage, or Crusader. Have him use mountain hammer. Heck, if you can afford 12, hire 6 to hit and 6 to carry stuff out.

You need an initiator level of 3 to be able to get Mountain Hammer.

[Fitz10019]

Do you really need your own complete tunnel? Can't you merely tunnel just a bit to tap into the existing tunnel? That will save a lot and you'd still have your own entrance/exit.

Also, you should be able to exit via any vertical shaft very quickly with a lot of rope and a heavy-enough counter weight.

[Radar]

Also, you should be able to exit via any vertical shaft very quickly with a lot of rope and a heavy-enough counter weight.
This. Just don't get bonked on the head by the counterweight.

Also: if the kobold miners plan is still considered, then why don't you sell the equipment to the kobolds? Let's say they do 65gp worth of work and you give them a 100gp discount on the mining equipment instead of regular pay. It's should circumvent the regular reselling rules and cut your costs a bit.

[TypoNinja]

We have a pretty strict DM, but he might actually go for that, since miner's picks are listed as equipment and not a weapon.

Still - not guarunteed but definitely worth running by him.

Also - I just noticed that Kobolds get a +2 racial bonus to profession miner, so If we could hire some lvl 2 Kobold Experts.. 5 ranks, 2 racial, 3 skill focus, 2 skill tool, +2 competence item, +6 from 3 kobolds 'aiding another' the foreman.. lookin at a static +20 for a +30 taking 10. Enough to clear out 2 5' squares.

I've been thinking that by RAMS, the 5' cubes the book gives, could be applied instead as 2 2.5x5' rectangles.. thus doubling the speed, but making it so we'd have to squeeze through.. not a big deal. Would only be able to have 1 of the other kobolds give a bonus for aiding, though - so i'd need to make up that +4 somehow.. otherwise it'd take just as long.

It would make alot more sense to construct it this size, to finish it faster. In that case we could get 60' done per day, looking at just over 2 weeks.

hmm..

Everyone always messes this up, but 3D transitions trip up a lot of people.

One 5x5x5 cube is not 2 2.5x 2.5 x 2.5 cubes. Its 4. when increasing cubic measurements on all axis the size climbs fast.

If you've got a stack of D6's the easiest way to visualize it is like this. Actually build it with dice as you go if you like.

1d6 is 1 cubic foot. To make a 2x2x2 cube you need to stack up 4 d6's. A 3x3x3 cube is 27 d6's a 4x4x4 cube is 64 d6's.

Also, making the tunnel smaller is counter productive in this case, you get 4 kobolds working on it because its small critters in a given area, shrink the area and get less critters working at once. So you wouldn't actually gain any speed.


Plus, if the need for escape through this tunnel is likely, you want something big enough to sprint through.

[Piggy Knowles]

Everyone always messes this up, but 3D transitions trip up a lot of people.

One 5x5x5 cube is not 2 2.5x 2.5 x 2.5 cubes. Its 4. when increasing cubic measurements on all axis the size climbs fast.

If you've got a stack of D6's the easiest way to visualize it is like this. Actually build it with dice as you go if you like.

1d6 is 1 cubic foot. To make a 2x2x2 cube you need to stack up 4 d6's. A 3x3x3 cube is 27 d6's a 4x4x4 cube is 64 d6's.

Also, making the tunnel smaller is counter productive in this case, you get 4 kobolds working on it because its small critters in a given area, shrink the area and get less critters working at once. So you wouldn't actually gain any speed.


Plus, if the need for escape through this tunnel is likely, you want something big enough to sprint through.

Good advice - but in his post, he called it two 2.5x5x5 squares, which IS accurate. If you cut any single dimension by half in a cube, you get half a cube.

[Augmental]

One 5x5x5 cube is not 2 2.5x 2.5 x 2.5 cubes. Its 4.

Actually, it's 8. Four 2.5^3 cubes would make a 5 by 5 by 2.5 rectangular cuboid. :smallwink:

[Togo]

When our group wanted to build a tunnel, we got the gnome to talk to a local dire badger, and then bribed him to dig the tunnel for us. Spent two days collecting and storing earthworms.

[Artillery]

When our group wanted to build a tunnel, we got the gnome to talk to a local dire badger, and then bribed him to dig the tunnel for us. Spent two days collecting and storing earthworms.

The problem is the tunnel is through solid stone.

[andromax]

Good advice - but in his post, he called it two 2.5x5x5 squares, which IS accurate. If you cut any single dimension by half in a cube, you get half a cube.

This... ^



Everyone always messes this up, but 3D transitions trip up a lot of people.

Not to derail the thread too much more than it has been.. but


could be applied instead as 2 2.5x5' rectangles..


Since when are rectangles a 3D shape?

Anyways, to clarify.. as Piggy Knowles pointed pointed were trying to take half a cube, 2.5'x5'x5' and double the speed.

If im incorrect about squeezing please correct me, but my understanding is that you may only take squeezing penalties when the space is half the width of your character. If it were also half the height you would need to be prone (I'm assuming). While prone you may only move 5' as a full round action, as a general rule.
So the 2.5'(w)x5(h)' tunnel is quite a bit less harsh than a 2.5'x2.5' tunnel, for a medium creature.

Anyways, still looking for bonuses to stack onto my mining team :P

[Coidzor]

hmm... I'm currently looking through Shax's Indispensible Haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101) to see if there's anything of interest.

So far I've just seen Cablespool which is only useful for going in the main entrance.

[TypoNinja]

Actually, it's 8. Four 2.5^3 cubes would make a 5 by 5 by 2.5 rectangular cuboid. :smallwink:

See, see! I even got it wrong! Modifying the size of a 3D object is a freaking pain!

[Erik Vale]

Taking a quick look through Shax's haversack, shapesand would be useful for making the picks cheaper. And you can make it something else later. Just gonna need to take 20 to make anything barring a high wis character, so don't expect it to be fast creation for later.

Edit: Also, see if you can find away around it, you might be able to go further back, and go under the temple into random room #X. Cheaper, and the benefit of surprise.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have an extreme alternative plan for you to consider.

Flash-flood. It's an 8th level cleric/druid spell from sandstorm that does exactly what it says on the tin. Even if it doesn't completely eliminate the enemies inside the temple, it should put a massive dent in their numbers. If the dungeon's small enough, you might even drown everyone.

There are a couple potential problems though. 1) if you needed to get some kind of mcguffin out of the dungeon, now you're going to have to swim for it. 2) If you needed anyone out of the dungeon alive.... yeah. 3) as an 8th level spell you're looking at 3k for a scroll and there may be noone in your party that could activate it.

Since you're looking at mining anyway, you could accomplish the same end in a mundane fashion if there's a waterway nearby and you get your hirelings to dig a canal to the dungeon entrance. This only reduces the cost of this plan though.

Good luck.

[Morph Bark]

So I thought a bit more about it (just to calculate out the option for you and compare it against the others). Since none of you are martial adepts and therefore don't have access to Mountain Hammer yourselves, you can't do this for free, but you could hire a 3rd-level warblade that could do it for you.

If you have the use of a 2nd-level maneuver cost as much as a 2nd-level spell (kind of unreasonable, since they're per-encounter rather than per-day, so they'd be more reasonable at a quarter of that price), it'd cost 3 x 20 = 60 gp per use.

Unworked stone has 900 hp per 5 ft thickness for every 10 by 10 ft section. If we scale that down to 5 by 5 or even 5 by 2.5 (though you will have to crawl in the latter case unless you're Small). It's even possible to make it 2.5 by 2.5, but you'd have to crawl and squeeze. At any rate, doing so will make it so that the 5 ft thickness you have to go through only has 1/64th of the hit points of the 10 by 10 section, so for every 320 ft you go through it's 900 hit points. You want a 1000 foot tunnel in 2 weeks? 960 ft = 2700 hit points. Those final 40 ft have 900 x 4 / 64 = 56.25 hit points, rounded up for 57, for a total of 2757 hit points. (If you don't want to crawl-n-squeeze, it's four times as much, accounting for the quarter hit point earlier appropriately, for a total of 11,025 hit points.)

A warblade with 15 Str (an average, rather than the max of 18) would deal 2+2d6+weapon damage every other round and 2+weapon damage (minus 8 hardness) between those -- twice that if he has Two-Weapon Fighting. Since two-handers might be ruled not to be so easily swung in such a small space (not sure if there are official rules on this), let's go for a short sword. With one of those he won't be able to go over the hardness (not unless he has something extra, which is very likely), so he's only doing damage every other round, an average of 12.5 hit points every other round, so 6.25 hp/round. He'll have dug a tunnel after 2757 / 6.25 = 441.12 rounds, rounded up, so 442 rounds. That's 44.2 minutes. The warblade will have used mountain hammer half those times, so 221 times, for a total cost of 221 x 60 = 13260 gp.

Or, y'know, promise him a share of the loot inside and a lot of glory, that might convince a warblade any day.

How much did those kobolds cost?

[Razgriez]

So... the solution is then that he should hire a block figure Warblade from Minecraft, and start hitting squares of dirt, rock and ore? Does that sum up that plan Morph?

Alternatives:

Dwarven Miners: Sure they'll cost more than Kobolds, nothing a 55 gallon barrel of Dwarven Stout (1650GP per 55 gallon barrel) won't fix. Besides, then the tunnel will be structurally sound, and then you can recoup some of the cost from the town for adding fine examples of Dwarven craftsmanship and design to their area.

Another option: Get your self, a burrowing mount, and strap a Burrowers saddle onto it! The look on the temple's resident's faces when you bursting through the floor riding on top of something, such as a Bullete, is priceless!

[Morph Bark]

So... the solution is then that he should hire a block figure Warblade from Minecraft, and start hitting squares of dirt, rock and ore? Does that sum up that plan Morph?

It's the rules that go that way, and I surely don't mind if I can put it to good use. :smallwink:

Though if the Minecraft guy were a Warblade, then all tools would be equally effective in destroying any kind of block (and you wouldn't even need diamond ones). That would speed things up quite a bit. Hmmm... D&D in Minecraft...

[Deophaun]

SAt any rate, doing so will make it so that the 5 ft thickness you have to go through only has 1/64th of the hit points of the 10 by 10 section.
This is wrong. You still have to go through the entire 10X10X10 section. You can't just mine out a 2.5X2.5X2.5 corner of the block, then move to the next 10X10X10 section and do it again. So, you actually have 1/16th of the hit points. Multiply all your figures by four.

[StreamOfTheSky]

So....are the temple walls made out of stone? How thick are they? What about the ceiling?

Just figure it's worth asking since digging in seems to be so tough to do.

[limejuicepowder]

Hire a warblade/binder who binds Aym and has mountain hammer strike. They should be able to blast through stone with relative ease.

They would only have to be level....4. Make sure they have power attack too.

Edit: Base attack +3, 18 str, using a masterwork warhammer. Power attack for 3. That gives 1d8 + 6 (str) + 6 (pa) + 2d6 (mountain hammer) x 2 (ruinous attack) = 48 damage every other turn (have to refresh mountain hammer), that bypasses hardness.

It would take roughly 38 rounds, or nearly 4 minutes, to move 5 ft though unworked stone. And it would make an awful racket.

edit: mega-swordsage'd. That's what I get for skipping to the end I suppose. Though if I was the DM I would not allow such a small tunnel Morph-Bark. How can the warblade make a proper swing while crushing himself in to a tunnel 2.5 ft by 2.5 ft? At most he could ineffectually poke the wall.

And I suppose the work time would be reduced on my character if he swung even if he didn't have mountain hammer. Those off-rounds would do....25 a round, including hardness. He would then be doing 73 per 2 rounds, or 36.5 per round. Now it would only take 25 rounds, or 2.5 mintues, to tunnel 5 ft.

[Fouredged Sword]

A trained hireling will cost 3sp per day. Kobolds have -1 wis, +2 racial bonus to prof miner, and, if trained, 4 ranks in the skill.

That gives them a base +5.

Now a team of 4 has 3 aid others. That is another +6. They can take 10 to aid other and get the needed DC15.

So +11, the main miner takes 10.

Shifts of 4, means 12 per day. That is 36sp per day.

Have them dig a narrow tunnel, 2.5ft by 5ft. That is enough to squeeze though and will double your dig rate.

[Morph Bark]

This is wrong. You still have to go through the entire 10X10X10 section. You can't just mine out a 2.5X2.5X2.5 corner of the block, then move to the next 10X10X10 section and do it again. So, you actually have 1/16th of the hit points. Multiply all your figures by four.

So then it will cost 64 times that if that's true. Probably not reasonable.

What is reasonable though is buying a Stone Dragon vest of Mountain Hammer for 3000 gp, but sadly that still only gives it 1/encounter with no recovery mechanic.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I could be wrong but I thought you cannot take 10 on aid another.

At least i think that's what the srd says
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm

[Artillery]

So I thought a bit more about it (just to calculate out the option for you and compare it against the others). Since none of you are martial adepts and therefore don't have access to Mountain Hammer yourselves, you can't do this for free, but you could hire a 3rd-level warblade that could do it for you.

If you have the use of a 2nd-level maneuver cost as much as a 2nd-level spell (kind of unreasonable, since they're per-encounter rather than per-day, so they'd be more reasonable at a quarter of that price), it'd cost 3 x 20 = 60 gp per use.

Unworked stone has 900 hp per 5 ft thickness for every 10 by 10 ft section. If we scale that down to 5 by 5 or even 5 by 2.5 (though you will have to crawl in the latter case unless you're Small). It's even possible to make it 2.5 by 2.5, but you'd have to crawl and squeeze. At any rate, doing so will make it so that the 5 ft thickness you have to go through only has 1/64th of the hit points of the 10 by 10 section, so for every 320 ft you go through it's 900 hit points. You want a 1000 foot tunnel in 2 weeks? 960 ft = 2700 hit points. Those final 40 ft have 900 x 4 / 64 = 56.25 hit points, rounded up for 57, for a total of 2757 hit points. (If you don't want to crawl-n-squeeze, it's four times as much, accounting for the quarter hit point earlier appropriately, for a total of 11,025 hit points.)

A warblade with 15 Str (an average, rather than the max of 18) would deal 2+2d6+weapon damage every other round and 2+weapon damage (minus 8 hardness) between those -- twice that if he has Two-Weapon Fighting. Since two-handers might be ruled not to be so easily swung in such a small space (not sure if there are official rules on this), let's go for a short sword. With one of those he won't be able to go over the hardness (not unless he has something extra, which is very likely), so he's only doing damage every other round, an average of 12.5 hit points every other round, so 6.25 hp/round. He'll have dug a tunnel after 2757 / 6.25 = 441.12 rounds, rounded up, so 442 rounds. That's 44.2 minutes. The warblade will have used mountain hammer half those times, so 221 times, for a total cost of 221 x 60 = 13260 gp.

Or, y'know, promise him a share of the loot inside and a lot of glory, that might convince a warblade any day.

How much did those kobolds cost?

Your math is wrong for a few things, the Hardness and HP charts are for unworked stone walls. For a 5ft tall x 5 ft wide. 15HP per inch, 60 inches thick for 5ft. 900HP This is for a 5x5x5 block of stone. Cutting it to a 2.5ft width you drop the HP to 450HP for 5ft of travel. You will need to go through 1000ft, 200 5ft squares. Total HP is 90,000 with hardness 8.

A 3rd level Warblade will have access to Mountain Hammer Strike and Punishing Stance. Using non-elite array stats on a half-orc gives us 14 or 15 strength.
Our means of damage are...
They will use a Greatsword, 2d6 dmg.
Punishing Stance, +1d6 dmg.
Power attack for 3, +6 dmg.
Strength bonus for 2 handed weapon, +3 dmg.
Mountain Hammer Strike, +2d6 ignore

The standard attack does 3d6+9 dmg, 3d6+1 after hardness. Or 11.5 dmg avg.
Mountain Hammer Strike every other turn does 5d6+9 dmg, ignores hardness. Or 26.5 dmg avg.
38 dmg per 2 rounds, 19 dmg avg a round.
So a 5x5x5 cube takes 47.4 rounds to destroy, this will happen 200 times that to go 1000ft. 9480 rounds to build the tunnel, 15.8 hours. If you decide to make the tunnel 2.5ft wide it will go twice as quickly.

If instead of a warblade you hire a lvl 3 NPC warrior who has power attack and the same stats as above warblade.
He will always do 2d6+9 dmg, - 8 for hardness. 8 dmg avg a turn.
It will take 112.5 rounds to go 5ft, 11.25 minutes. Times 200 blocks. Is 22500 rounds. Or 37.5 hours. A trained Hireling has a minimum wage of 3 sp/day, untrained are 1 sp/day. Hire 3 skilled of them to work shifts and 3 untrained to haul out debris. 1.2 GP/day minimum each works an 8 hour shift
So 1.2GP/day for less then two days. You will need to buy a Great Sword(50 gp), light source(Lamp and Oil (1 sp and 1sp/pint, pint last 6 hours), food and water(trail rations 1sp/day per person), a Pony(30gp), a cart(15 gp), and 2 tents(20gp/each). So minimum cost with 2 days of work will be,
Cost Invoice
-------
2.4GP - Labor
50GP - Sword
.8GP - Lighting
1.2GP - Food and Water
45GP - Hauling debris
40GP - Sleep quarters for 2 off duty
-------
139.4GP - Cost during work
67.5GP -Reselling equipment when done at 1/2 price
-------
71.9GP to dig a 5x5x1000ft tunnel in 2 days.

[andromax]

Your math is wrong for a few things, the Hardness and HP charts are for unworked stone walls. For a 5ft tall x 5 ft wide. 15HP per inch, 60 inches thick for 5ft. 900HP This is for a 5x5x5 block of stone. Cutting it to a 2.5ft width you drop the HP to 450HP for 5ft of travel. You will need to go through 1000ft, 200 5ft squares. Total HP is 90,000 with hardness 8.

A 3rd level Warblade will have access to Mountain Hammer Strike and Punishing Stance. Using non-elite array stats on a half-orc gives us 14 or 15 strength.
Our means of damage are...
They will use a Greatsword, 2d6 dmg.
Punishing Stance, +1d6 dmg.
Power attack for 3, +6 dmg.
Strength bonus for 2 handed weapon, +3 dmg.
Mountain Hammer Strike, +2d6 ignore

The standard attack does 3d6+9 dmg, 3d6+1 after hardness. Or 11.5 dmg avg.
Mountain Hammer Strike every other turn does 5d6+9 dmg, ignores hardness. Or 26.5 dmg avg.
38 dmg per 2 rounds, 19 dmg avg a round.
So a 5x5x5 cube takes 47.4 rounds to destroy, this will happen 200 times that to go 1000ft. 9480 rounds to build the tunnel, 15.8 hours. If you decide to make the tunnel 2.5ft wide it will go twice as quickly.

If instead of a warblade you hire a lvl 3 NPC warrior who has power attack and the same stats as above warblade.
He will always do 2d6+9 dmg, - 8 for hardness. 8 dmg avg a turn.
It will take 112.5 rounds to go 5ft, 11.25 minutes. Times 200 blocks. Is 22500 rounds. Or 37.5 hours. A trained Hireling has a minimum wage of 3 sp/day, untrained are 1 sp/day. Hire 3 skilled of them to work shifts and 3 untrained to haul out debris. 1.2 GP/day minimum each works an 8 hour shift
So 1.2GP/day for less then two days. You will need to buy a Great Sword(50 gp), light source(Lamp and Oil (1 sp and 1sp/pint, pint last 6 hours), food and water(trail rations 1sp/day per person), a Pony(30gp), a cart(15 gp), and 2 tents(20gp/each). So minimum cost with 2 days of work will be,
Cost Invoice
-------
2.4GP - Labor
50GP - Sword
.8GP - Lighting
1.2GP - Food and Water
45GP - Hauling debris
40GP - Sleep quarters for 2 off duty
-------
139.4GP - Cost during work
67.5GP -Reselling equipment when done at 1/2 price
-------
71.9GP to dig a 5x5x1000ft tunnel in 2 days.

While it's true that you could do x amount of dmg to stone with mountain hammer in x amount of time, it doesn't address the issues of having to make a tunnel that won't collapse on you. That is far to thrilling a temptation for any DM I know.

[Worira]

So... the solution is then that he should hire a block figure Warblade from Minecraft, and start hitting squares of dirt, rock and ore? Does that sum up that plan Morph?

Alternatives:

Dwarven Miners: Sure they'll cost more than Kobolds, nothing a 55 gallon barrel of Dwarven Stout (1650GP per 55 gallon barrel) won't fix. Besides, then the tunnel will be structurally sound, and then you can recoup some of the cost from the town for adding fine examples of Dwarven craftsmanship and design to their area.

Another option: Get your self, a burrowing mount, and strap a Burrowers saddle onto it! The look on the temple's resident's faces when you bursting through the floor riding on top of something, such as a Bullete, is priceless!

Dwarves are tied with kobolds for mining ability, and that's only assuming you let them use their bonus on craft checks as a bonus on profession (miner). And even then, fewer of them can work on one thing at once.


A trained hireling will cost 3sp per day. Kobolds have -1 wis, +2 racial bonus to prof miner, and, if trained, 4 ranks in the skill.

That gives them a base +5.

Now a team of 4 has 3 aid others. That is another +6. They can take 10 to aid other and get the needed DC15.

So +11, the main miner takes 10.

Shifts of 4, means 12 per day. That is 36sp per day.

Have them dig a narrow tunnel, 2.5ft by 5ft. That is enough to squeeze though and will double your dig rate.

Kobolds don't have a wisdom penalty. Also, this is exactly what the original post is planning, except less optimized.

[Artillery]

While it's true that you could do x amount of dmg to stone with mountain hammer in x amount of time, it doesn't address the issues of having to make a tunnel that won't collapse on you. That is far to thrilling a temptation for any DM I know.

Did you look at the 2nd solution of just using a lvl 3 warrior with power attack and a two handed weapon? If you wanted you could hire some trained laborers with profession mining to add supports as the digging goes on.

Also just checked page 98 for the profession detail. By the sounds of the mountain/temple. It is made from regular "solid stone", this is what we call +0 DC. After you hire the Kobolds with Profession Mining they can tell you what kind of rock it is. If it is regular +0 DC stone then you will go much faster.

Does anyone is the party have UMD? If you can get your hands on a Wand of "Guidance of the Avatar" you can get a +20 competence bonus to a single check per casting. Profession mining requires a check only once every 8 hours.
Your foreman is a lvl 1 Kobold Expert.
He has a wisdom of 12.
Has Skill Focus Profession(Mining)
Tallying up his skills and racial bonuses

4 ranks in Profession(Mining)
3 Skill Focus Profession(Mining)
1 Wisdom Mod
2 Racial Bonus
2 Masterwork Mining Tools
6 Aid another
+18 mod without any competence bonus
He can take 10 for 28.
Provide favorable conditions can give him +2 for 30.


Using Owl's Wisdom indirectly ups it by 2.

Using Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) gives a +20 competence bonus to your next skill check.

Page 98 of Races of the Dragon mentions giving alchemical bonuses for using ditherbombs in combination with Profession(Mining), see if you DM will allow you to use Stonebreaker Acid(20GP to buy, DC20 to craft) as a more potent substitute.
A Strong Ditherbomb does 1d6x1d8 acid dmg and provides a +6 alchemical bonus to mining.
Stonebreaker Acid does 5d10 acid dmg for two rounds, ignores hardness. It is a better tool for this and would likely provide a decent alchemy bonus with DM approval. 1d6 dmg provides +2 bonus, 4d6 dmg provides +4 bonus, 6d8 dmg provides +6 bonus. Would 10d10 be +8 or +10?

[Morph Bark]

Your math is wrong for a few things, the Hardness and HP charts are for unworked stone walls.

Except I did take them for those. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#walls) it clearly states the 900 hit points are for 10x10 ft sections of 5 ft thick.

I should probably have used a kobold warblade so that he could have used a two-hander in 2.5x2.5 tunnels though, but then you need one that has the maximum possible Strength.

[elvengunner69]

Just a thought on summoning thoqqua

The Druid would have to have a few nifty things in place to summon them for longer 1 round/lvl (possible but will make it more expensive) so I think a lvl 9 druid was mentioned? So assuming he has Extend Spell he gets them for 2 rounds a lvl...18 rounds at what six seconds a round? (or is it 10 seconds?)

I know it hasn't been discussed since the first page I just thought I would point that out... :smallsmile:

[Phelix-Mu]

Remember to make some kind of collapse point if you are making a tunnel. I guess pricing this might be counted as some kind of trap if you are pricing it out, but it wouldn't be that complex to rig some kind of trigger to drop the roof/sizable pile of rubble into the tunnel when you are escaping/withdrawing. Could be difference between life and death, after all.