Cleric/Druid spontaneous casting

[barna10]

The sections for both cleric and druid spontaneous casting both fail to mention whether or not only the respective class's spells can be spontaneously converted. The cleric one specifically states that domain spells cannot be converted, but it never mentions whether other class's spells can be.

So, RAW a Mystic Theurge could spontaneously convert ALL of his spells, not just the divine ones.

I doubt this was the intention, but without something to contradict this, what's to stop a character from doing this (besides a houserule)?

[Seer_of_Heart]

I don't think there is anything to stop this from happening AFAIK, that's an interesting idea a bit suboptimal but interesting. Take a 1 level dip in druid/cleric for the ability to use sna/heal and not need to prepare them.

[TuggyNE]

The sections for both cleric and druid spontaneous casting both fail to mention whether or not only the respective class's spells can be spontaneously converted. The cleric one specifically states that domain spells cannot be converted, but it never mentions whether other class's spells can be.

So, RAW a Mystic Theurge could spontaneously convert ALL of his spells, not just the divine ones.

I doubt this was the intention, but without something to contradict this, what's to stop a character from doing this (besides a houserule)?

Um, the fact that it only applies to Cleric and Druid classes, and repeatedly mentions divine spellcasting as being affected? (Mystic Theurge does not grant any divine spellcasting of its own; if it did, losing half your slots in order to make them spontaneous is not a bonus.)


I don't think there is anything to stop this from happening AFAIK, that's an interesting idea a bit suboptimal but interesting. Take a 1 level dip in druid/cleric for the ability to use sna/heal and not need to prepare them.

Doesn't work too well, since you don't get scaling SNA/cure X wounds. If all you want is SNA I, sure, go for it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm

Nowhere does that indicate that you can use Spontaneous Druid or Cleric spell slots for anything but your Druid or Cleric spells known, respectively. Furthermore, the following RAW is not overridden by the Spontaneous Divine Casters variant:

A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)

A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)

Absolutely nowhere is it even implied that you can use Cleric or Druid spell slots to cast anything but Cleric or Druid spells, respectively.

[barna10]

Um, the fact that it only applies to Cleric and Druid classes, and repeatedly mentions divine spellcasting as being affected? (Mystic Theurge does not grant any divine spellcasting of its own; if it did, losing half your slots in order to make them spontaneous is not a bonus.)
.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the class abilities from the PHB, not a class variant.

"A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with "inflict" in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Nowhere does it mention divine spells.

[barna10]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm

Nowhere does that indicate that you can use Spontaneous Druid or Cleric spell slots for anything but your Druid or Cleric spells known, respectively. Furthermore, the following RAW is not overridden by the Spontaneous Divine Casters variant:

A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)

A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm)

Absolutely nowhere is it even implied that you can use Cleric or Druid spell slots to cast anything but Cleric or Druid spells, respectively.

Not talking about the spontaneous variant. I'm wondering about the normal versions from the PHB (see above)

[barna10]

I don't think there is anything to stop this from happening AFAIK, that's an interesting idea a bit suboptimal but interesting. Take a 1 level dip in druid/cleric for the ability to use sna/heal and not need to prepare them.

This is exactly what I was thinking. I have a wizard NPC and I was thinking of having him take a dip into Cleric to provide healing for the party that doesn't have a cleric. By RAW he should be able to turn any of his wizard spells into a healing spell.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I see, you're talking about losing a prepared non-Cleric/Druid spell to instead cast a Cure or Summon Nature's Ally of the same level, then.

"The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower..."

In that case, I'd say yes for Cleric, but Druid does not contain the bolded portion. The Spontaneous Domain Casting variant in PH2 does contain that exact same wording, though.

Keep in mind however that a Cleric 1/ Wizard 19 only knows 1st level Cleric spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellsGainedataNewLevel), and you have to know a spell to cast it. It would add versatility to a Mystic Theurge build, but that still doesn't really make Mystic Theurge even worth considering.

[barna10]

I see, you're talking about losing a prepared non-Cleric/Druid spell to instead cast a Cure or Summon Nature's Ally of the same level, then.

"The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower..."

In that case, I'd say yes for Cleric, but Druid does not contain the bolded portion. The Spontaneous Domain Casting variant in PH2 does contain that exact same wording, though.

Keep in mind however that a Cleric 1/ Wizard 19 only knows 1st level Cleric spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellsGainedataNewLevel), and you have to know a spell to cast it. It would add versatility to a Mystic Theurge build, but that still doesn't really make Mystic Theurge even worth considering.

Where's it say the character actually has to know the spell? Clerics technically "know" their entire spell list anyway.

Also, the Druid has the exact same wording minus mentioning domain spells:

"A druid can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn’t prepared ahead of time. She can "lose" a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature’s ally spell of the same level or lower."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm

[TuggyNE]

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the class abilities from the PHB, not a class variant.

"A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with "inflict" in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Nowhere does it mention divine spells.

My apologies, I assumed you were talking about some more obscure side of the rules.

However, for Cleric I have no idea why you'd bother with this; even spontaneously casting heal (which you can't) would not be especially impressive, and converting random slots to cures is so low-op it's not worth the cheesiness.

Converting slots into SNAs is a bit more useful, especially in the Mystic Theurge slot-extravaganza milieu; still, for such an atrociously cheesy trick, I'd expect you to pick something with a more impressive result. (The best thing you can get is something like Wiz 7/Drd 3/MT 10, and then I guess sacrificing ninths to get SNAIX, assuming you can get around the spell level access problem with more extremely dubious interpretations. But why bother, when SMIX is almost as good?)

[barna10]

My apologies, I assumed you were talking about some more obscure side of the rules.

However, for Cleric I have no idea why you'd bother with this; even spontaneously casting heal (which you can't) would not be especially impressive, and converting random slots to cures is so low-op it's not worth the cheesiness.

Converting slots into SNAs is a bit more useful, especially in the Mystic Theurge slot-extravaganza milieu; still, for such an atrociously cheesy trick, I'd expect you to pick something with a more impressive result. (The best thing you can get is something like Wiz 7/Drd 3/MT 10, and then I guess sacrificing ninths to get SNAIX, assuming you can get around the spell level access problem with more extremely dubious interpretations. But why bother, when SMIX is almost as good?)

Like I said earlier, just looking for a way to fill a need. It's not at all about optimization. Really just needed a sounding board to make sure I was reading things correctly and not missing something. Thanks all.

[TuggyNE]

Like I said earlier, just looking for a way to fill a need. It's not at all about optimization. Really just needed a sounding board to make sure I was reading things correctly and not missing something. Thanks all.

But... hrng... head... hurts... stench of cheese... too much....

This is just such a painful abuse of RAW I can't figure out why you would ever use it except for TO — and I can't figure out why you'd want it for TO either, obviously. (I can't help but feel like there's some subtle reason it doesn't work, but unfortunately am not sure what that would be.)