Whose gate was best protected?

[about50heavies]

Which gates do you think were best protected?

[Koo Rehtorb]

Well it's 3.5 so... the ones with epic level casters beside them.

[FujinAkari]

Definately Durokans. It took Xykon & co like a month to take it. Soon and Lirian's fell in a single afternoon.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Lirian did the best against them, actually. Considering she straight up won and all.

[Xelbiuj]

Soon's. Him and the other ghost martyrs were enough to kill an epic lich and high level cleric, they only got away because of dumb ass Miko.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Soon's. Him and the other ghost martyrs were enough to kill an epic lich and high level cleric, they only got away because of dumb ass Miko.

Nah. That was only because Xykon got cocky and got smacked around for it.

Lirian actually had a really good trap which worked perfectly and only failed in the end because she was too nice.

[Kareasint]

Nah. That was only because Xykon got cocky and got smacked around for it.

Lirian actually had a really good trap which worked perfectly and only failed in the end because she was too nice.

I am going to vote for Lirian's as well. The main reason why Redcloak was still able to cast spells was due to an artifact. Otherwise, he would have lost his spell casting abilities as well. Even if an army came it using non-magical fire, the elves and Lirian probably had that eventuality covered since lightning strikes due to weather occur all the time. Brute force of arms would be countered by the entire forest itself.

[about50heavies]

The weakest is probably girard gate

[Morph Bark]

The weakest is probably girard gate

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Sure, by the time the Order arrived it was prettymuch unguarded, but when the family was still alive there undoubtedly were some high-level sorcerers amongst them.

[Drakeburn]

The weakest is probably girard gate

I highly doubt that.

They had illusions, traps, and some high-level sorcerers in a family of sorcerers. The death of the Draketooth family was entirely vaarsuvius's fault.

[about50heavies]

From what we have seen they rely on illusions and traps to kill their opponents . Soon's gate had 2 armies protecting it one of ghosts and the azurite army. Lirian had the whole forest and without Xykon turning into a lich her gate would still be standing. Dorukon held off Xykon for months . Out of all the ones seen so far Girard's seems to be the weakest

[Kish]

We haven't gotten to Girard's actual Gate in the story yet. Making any declaration of the strength or weakness of its defenses would be roughly as premature as doing the same for Soon's Gate when the most recent strip was #448.

[Drakeburn]

From what we have seen they rely on illusions and traps to kill their opponents . Soon's gate had 2 armies protecting it one of ghosts and the azurite army. Lirian had the whole forest and without Xykon turning into a lich her gate would still be standing. Dorukon held off Xykon for months . Out of all the ones seen so far Girard's seems to be the weakest

Dorukon alone defended against Xykon. Without Dorukon, there wasn't anything or anybody else to fight off Xykon.

After Dorukon's defeat, it was a simple cakewalk for Xykon to take over. So in my perspective, Dorukon's dungeon was the weakest.

[about50heavies]

Given the fact that xykon killed an epic level wizard he would easily kill the draketooth family as girard is dead before the familicide spell. The illusion have no effect as Xykon does not care about sending minions to their deaths

[Eurus]

Girard's Gate is a hard power level to place, because Familicide is a really hard power level to place. With the sheer number of dragons it killed, we can assume it had the ability to bypass spell resistance and either a staggeringly high DC or no save at all. Which begs the question of if Harga was actually stronger than Xykon. :smalleek:

(You've got to admit, it'd be hilarious to see Xy get hit by an Epic Command Undead or something.)

[FujinAkari]

Given the fact that xykon killed an epic level wizard he would easily kill the draketooth family as girard is dead before the familicide spell. The illusion have no effect as Xykon does not care about sending minions to their deaths

What minions? They're all back in Gobtopia

[ReaderAt2046]

We can't make a call on this one because Kraagor's defenses still haven't even been tested. But of the others, I think Dorukan was probably the strongest, mostly because of the sigil-shield (the one that only the "pure of heart" can open). With that, the only way the gate could have been opened was for an evil to defeat Dorukan and then some good guy to decide to unlock the gate for the evil.

[Koo Rehtorb]

We can't make a call on this one because Kraagor's defenses still haven't even been tested. But of the others, I think Dorukan was probably the strongest, mostly because of the sigil-shield (the one that only the "pure of heart" can open). With that, the only way the gate could have been opened was for an evil to defeat Dorukan and then some good guy to decide to unlock the gate for the evil.

It's not that strong a protection. He could just kidnap some good aligned peasant and force them to touch it for him. A nuisance at best.

[FujinAkari]

It's not that strong a protection. He could just kidnap some good aligned peasant and force them to touch it for him. A nuisance at best.

A good aligned archmage? Because you have to do a fair bit more than just touch the sigil to deactivate it, one would think.

[JavaScribe]

Soon's was probably the strongest out of what we have seen so far.

For one thing, it had the resources of an entire city defending it. Sure, Xykon could have beaten every one of them save Soon by himself, but not in one day and they could have found ways to be a real nuiscance. He ended up needing an army to erase them.

For another thing, even with the fall of the city, he couldn't take the gate without dealing with Soon. Soon had already proven him unable to do so short of losing his prize. Also, does "killing" an Oath spirit deal with it permanently, or does it get to come back after some number of days like a ghost? That would have made a weeks long ritual impossible, even if they could defeat Soon each and every time he came back.

[about50heavies]

What minions? They're all back in Gobtopia

Xykon still has undead minions

[JavaScribe]

A good aligned archmage? Because you have to do a fair bit more than just touch the sigil to deactivate it, one would think.

One would think, and we don't really know, but Xykon seemed to feel that Elan touching it would be sufficient. It was certainly sufficient for a certain magic item Durokan had stowed away inside his dungeon.

[Koo Rehtorb]

A good aligned archmage? Because you have to do a fair bit more than just touch the sigil to deactivate it, one would think.

Well, I suppose Xykon could be wrong about what it took, but that would make part of the climax of the whole battle kind of anti-climactic.

[Agnostik]

I'm betting on Kraagor's / Serini's.

[ReaderAt2046]

It's not that strong a protection. He could just kidnap some good aligned peasant and force them to touch it for him. A nuisance at best.

Then why didn't he? I sort of assumed that it had to be done vonluntarily or it wouldn't work.

[JavaScribe]

Then why didn't he? I sort of assumed that it had to be done vonluntarily or it wouldn't work.

Possibly because Xykon is lazy, a group of adventurers was already handy, and most importantly, the story wouldn't have worked otherwise. But even if willingness is required, it would be pretty easy for an epic sorcerer to disguise himself with an illusion and bluff a good aligned peasant into it.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Xykon doesn't exactly take things seriously most of the time. Using the convenient party of adventurers to do it was probably more fun. Also he hadn't figured it out until they were already pretty close to his lair; so, why not?

[Drakeburn]

I have to agree on two things.....

1. We haven't seen the best of all the defenses of every gate guardian yet. So we don't know for sure which one is the best.

2. So far, Soon's defenses are the strongest, with an army, ghost paladins, and city defenses. They would've had a better chance if it wasn't for Kubota, Julio Scoundrel, and Miko (and probably Belkar's mark of justice, but I'm not sure).

[Koo Rehtorb]

2. So far, Soon's defenses are the strongest, with an army, ghost paladins, and city defenses. They would've had a better chance if it wasn't for Kubota, Julio Scoundrel, and Miko (and probably Belkar's mark of justice, but I'm not sure).

Don't agree. If you're in their position the thing you're going to have to worry about is epic level threats. City defenses, an army and lowish level minions are barely going to slow an epic level challenge down.

The only thing in that city that was capable of seriously inconveniencing a real threat was ghost Soon himself. And ghost Soon isn't nearly as dangerous as an epic level druid, wizard or sorcerer.

Realistically Xykon could have beaten Azure City all by himself by flying around raining meteor swarms down on it and retreating to recover spells whenever he ran out. Having an army just made it faster.

[JavaScribe]

Don't agree. If you're in their position the thing you're going to have to worry about is epic level threats. City defenses, an army and lowish level minions are barely going to slow an epic level challenge down.

The only thing in that city that was capable of seriously inconveniencing a real threat was ghost Soon himself. And ghost Soon isn't nearly as dangerous as an epic level druid, wizard or sorcerer.

Realistically Xykon could have beaten Azure City all by himself by flying around raining meteor swarms down on it and retreating to recover spells whenever he ran out. Having an army just made it faster.

Soon may not be as powerful as an equally leveled spellcaster, but he would have had Xykon dead certainly had the very thing Xykon was after remained intact. Also, how permanent is an Oath spirit's "death"?

In any case, whether the gates were sufficiently protected isn't the topic at hand, merely the best. And how do all the other gates compare to Soon's defenses? Dorukan may have been epic, but he didn't exactly prove himself very competant in their battle and the sigils are easily bypassed once you know the secret. Lirian's defenses were much stronger, but too specialized and couldn't handle something unnatural. Girard probably does have something very special up and waiting, but everything we've seen up to now has been terribly underwhelming, even taking into account how much stronger they would have been without the Familicide.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Soon may not be as powerful as an equally leveled spellcaster, but he would have had Xykon dead certainly had the very thing Xykon was after remained intact.

Sure, but I'd say that was more due to Xykon being incredibly sloppy in that rather than any sort of unbeatable plan on the part of the paladins. It would have been trivially easy for Xykon to just retreat if he thought, at any point before losing, that he needed to. He and Redcloak could have then whittled the ghosts down and taken Soon out pretty easily.


In any case, whether the gates were sufficiently protected isn't the topic at hand, merely the best. And how do all the other gates compare to Soon's defenses? Dorukan may have been epic, but he didn't exactly prove himself very competant in their battle and the sigils are easily bypassed once you know the secret.

Same deal, I'd say Dorukan was just as over confident and sloppy as Xykon was with Soon. His defenses were specifically presented as impenetrable before he let himself get lured out and punked.


Lirian's defenses were much stronger, but too specialized and couldn't handle something unnatural.

Well... I get the impression that a lich in the OotS world is really really rare. An epic level one would be even more rare. Her defenses would likely stand up far better to most other credible threats than the others. She got very unlucky in the story's choice of main villains. We also didn't exactly see all of what she had up her sleeve.


Girard probably does have something very special up and waiting, but everything we've seen up to now has been terribly underwhelming, even taking into account how much stronger they would have been without the Familicide.

Oh I don't think we should even consider the other two at this point, we don't know enough about them.

Just based on what we've seen I'd rate them as:

1) Lirian's
2) Dorukan's
3) Soon's

Soon just looks better in comparison because his got far more story time devoted to showing all his lines of defenses, and Lirian and Dourkan both got screwed by personality (merciful and rash, respectively) where Xykon was the one who got screwed by personality when it came to Soon's. Soon got luckier, I wouldn't say he had the stronger line of defenses.

[Carry2]

Realistically Xykon could have beaten Azure City all by himself by flying around raining meteor swarms down on it and retreating to recover spells whenever he ran out.
Maybe it's flight that's the problem there. If you could actually keep Xykon in bow range, several thousand archers concentrated on one target are bound to roll an awful lot of natural 20s. It's been a while since I went over the spell lists, but do arcane casters have 100% reliable methods of blocking ALL mundane damage? (Iron Body would, but I don't think you can fly at the same time.)

[Koo Rehtorb]

Maybe it's flight that's the problem there. If you could actually keep Xykon in bow range, several thousand archers concentrated on one target are bound to roll an awful lot of natural 20s. It's been a while since I went over the spell lists, but do arcane casters have 100% reliable methods of blocking ALL mundane damage? (Iron Body would, but I don't think you can fly at the same time.)

Arrows would just bounce off him (he ignores the 1st 15 points of damage from every attack that isn't magical blunt) and I doubt you could hit him with a ballista or something that you'd need to actually scratch him.

Enchanted sling bullets would "work", but that would be obscenely expensive and hard to supply to every guy in the city, and doesn't have anywhere near the range of meteor swarm anyway.

[Carry2]

Arrows would just bounce off him (he ignores the 1st 15 points of damage from every attack that isn't magical blunt) and I doubt you could hit him with a ballista or something that you'd need to actually scratch him.

Enchanted sling bullets would "work", but that would be obscenely expensive and hard to supply to every guy in the city, and doesn't have anywhere near the range of meteor swarm anyway.
Oh, right- I forgot about a Lich's natural damage reduction. I guess it would be hard to lure him within range regardless, even if he might be tempted to throw out some Cloudkill for efficiency's sake.

[Jay R]

It's worth noting that Kraagor's gate is the only one not yet compromised.

[about50heavies]

It's worth noting that Kraagor's gate is the only one not yet compromised.

Wasn't it filled with the strongest creatures serini could find

[Kish]

Drawing any conclusions about Kraagor's Gate would be extremely premature.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Though at this point I think it's safe to assume that Girard's gate is probably going boom and it's down to Kraagor's. :smalltongue:

What? That's what happens in stories like this all the time!

[about50heavies]

Drawing any conclusions about Kraagor's Gate would be extremely premature.

Ahem Serini built Kraagor's gate according to his belief that strength is the ultimate weapon

[Red XIV]

The only thing in that city that was capable of seriously inconveniencing a real threat was ghost Soon himself. And ghost Soon isn't nearly as dangerous as an epic level druid, wizard or sorcerer.
Soon as an oath spirit was more dangerous than an epic-level druid or wizard, because Xykon basically couldn't hurt him. If Miko had been less stupid, or even been a round or two slower in arriving, Soon would've killed Xykon and Redcloak. And then, even if Miko had still destroyed the gate, there'd be nobody protecting the phylactery. And it's even possible that the explosion would've destroyed it outright (though given that O-Chul survived the blast from a foot away, probably not).

[Koo Rehtorb]

Soon as an oath spirit was more dangerous than an epic-level druid or wizard, because Xykon basically couldn't hurt him.

No, that's not true. Xykon just had no clue what spells to even use. If Redcloak and Xykon knew what they were facing and had time to plan spells out (or if they had retreated and come back later better prepared) then they could have wiped the floor with him without any major trouble at all.

Plenty of spells and effects would have been effective against Soon. Xykon was just trying to hammer a nail in with a gun is all.


If Miko had been less stupid, or even been a round or two slower in arriving, Soon would've killed Xykon and Redcloak.

Well, yes, they clearly lost. I'm just saying that there was no need for them to have lost that fight. It was far from unwinnable for them, they just messed it up really badly.

[Carry2]

No, that's not true. Xykon just had no clue what spells to even use. If Redcloak and Xykon knew what they were facing and had time to plan spells out (or if they had retreated and come back later better prepared) then they could have wiped the floor with him without any major trouble at all.
Which, given that Miko's immediate impression on entering the throne room was seeing an awful lot of dead paladins and a paralysed O-chul about to smash the gem, makes her actual behaviour a lot more understandable.

[lesser_minion]

No, that's not true. Xykon just had no clue what spells to even use. If Redcloak and Xykon knew what they were facing and had time to plan spells out (or if they had retreated and come back later better prepared) then they could have wiped the floor with him without any major trouble at all.

Xykon is a sorcerer, not a wizard. He does not have the option of running off to prepare different spells.

[Kish]

"Preparing different spells"=/="being prepared."

In this case, Xykon dumped most of his high-level castings on ineffective elemental damage, because he didn't know how to deal with the ghosts. He wouldn't need to be a wizard to not do that.

[Jay R]

Drawing any conclusions about Kraagor's Gate would be extremely premature.

What data we have point to a strong likelihood that Rich will draw the conclusion of this story around about Kraagor's Gate.


:smallsmile:

[Kish]

And if that was the next strip to go up, you cannot deny that it would be extremely premature. :smalltongue:

[lesser_minion]

"Preparing different spells"=/="being prepared."

Even if he did use a lot of high-level spells, I would have expected him to have something far better than magic missile that he could use against the ghosts. He did not, so it's reasonable to conclude that he didn't know any such spell.

And since he's a sorcerer, there's not much he could have done to remedy that -- certainly not much beyond buying up scrolls or something like that, which would have given the good guys a lot of time to prepare themselves.

[Clistenes]

Question: What if Girard conned all his family into protecting a fake gate, while the real one is hidden somewhere else? He is an illusionist, he believes in using lies and deceit, and you know "you have to deceive you allies in order to deceive your enemies".

Girard had to foresee that a descendant of him would eventually make a blunder or betray the family's task: They were supposed to protect the Gate forever, and it seems impossible that none of them will ever fail...so why not using a fake gate to protect the real one?

[SoC175]

Soon and Lirian's fell in a single afternoon.IIRC it took days of fighting until they reached Lirian's

"Preparing different spells"=/="being prepared."

In this case, Xykon dumped most of his high-level castings on ineffective elemental damage, because he didn't know how to deal with the ghosts. He wouldn't need to be a wizard to not do that.But being a wizard instead, he would have more skillpoints to take Knowledge (religion), which to the cleric's dismay is also an Int-based skill :smalltongue:

[JavaScribe]

Question: What if Girard conned all his family into protecting a fake gate, while the real one is hidden somewhere else? He is an illusionist, he believes in using lies and deceit, and you know "you have to deceive you allies in order to deceive your enemies".

Girard had to foresee that a descendant of him would eventually make a blunder or betray the family's task: They were supposed to protect the Gate forever, and it seems impossible that none of them will ever fail...so why not using a fake gate to protect the real one?

It wouldn't suprise me at all if he created a decoy gate, but I doubt he conned his own family. Girard is a lot like Ian Starshine in this regard. Blood is the one and only thing he truly trusts. And paranoid as he is, even he would acknowledge that the gate needs something sentient to guard it so as to adjust to the times.

[Hawkeye]

Soon's. Him and the other ghost martyrs were enough to kill an epic lich and high level cleric, they only got away because of dumb ass Miko.

Hey! I dispute you calling Miko a dumb ass, I'm sure that she's got a perfectly formed and flawless ass :p

[about50heavies]

Hey! I dispute you calling Miko a dumb ass, I'm sure that she's got a perfectly formed and flawless ass :p

Miko's ass is like the dumb blonde of asses

[Kish]

Even if he did use a lot of high-level spells, I would have expected him to have something far better than magic missile that he could use against the ghosts. He did not, so it's reasonable to conclude that he didn't know any such spell.

And since he's a sorcerer, there's not much he could have done to remedy that -- certainly not much beyond buying up scrolls or something like that, which would have given the good guys a lot of time to prepare themselves.
Even if you assume that his spamming Meteor Swarm until he was out of ninth-level spell slots means he has nothing but Magic Missile that would have been better against the ghosts--an assumption I would not want to join you in--he could still have done far better than he did if he'd known what he was dealing with, simply by spending his higher-level slots on Empowered Magic Missile, Maximized Magic Missile, and Empowered Maximized Magic Missile. Or, quite possibly, he could have spammed Energy Drain at Soon if he'd known that deathless, unlike undead, are not immune to Energy Drain and/or that the leader of the spirits was far more dangerous and important than the others.

[Snails]

The genius of Soon's defenses was that it was an amazing ambush. Large swarms of incorporeal positive energy beings could be expected to be incredibly lethal against undead (the living have a similar problem with incorporeal undead). In fact, if we actually statted it and played it out at the table, Xykon might not even survive the surprise round.

Xykon's spell tactics were fine. While the ghosts were taking less damage, area spells can be hitting 10 or 20 or 40 enemy at a time. The real problem was that Xykon did not understand why his spells were working less well than he expected; so he foolishly kept fighting when he should have immediately fled for clerical backup.

[Koo Rehtorb]

The genius of Soon's defenses was that it was an amazing ambush. Large swarms of incorporeal positive energy beings could be expected to be incredibly lethal against undead (the living have a similar problem with incorporeal undead). In fact, if we actually statted it and played it out at the table, Xykon might not even survive the surprise round.

Xykon's spell tactics were fine. While the ghosts were taking less damage, area spells can be hitting 10 or 20 or 40 enemy at a time. The real problem was that Xykon did not understand why his spells were working less well than he expected; so he foolishly kept fighting when he should have immediately fled for clerical backup.

I think that most of them weren't a threat at all, though. Most of those are still going to be low level schlubs that have no chance of even getting through Xykon's DR. Soon was the real danger, the rest were just a distraction.

[Giggling Ghast]

I'm going to say Dorukan's Gate, as Xykon was in control of Dorukan's entire dungeon and STILL could not defeat the enchantments on the Gate.

[Threadnaught]

The best way to find the strongest defences, is to look at all the weaknesses, not base it on the story so far.
So an Epic Level Lich was able to stomp a Druid with the help of a high level Goblin Cleric, then crush an Epic Wizard and take over his entire dungeon, then with an army at their backs, destroy the city state defenders of another gate. All of this means an Epic Undead Spellcaster, with some backup is capable of breaking through the defences. It says nothing about how the gates would handle other problems.

Lirian: I know nothing about this one.

Dorukan: If his defences were one rune then it is extremely weak. There are ways for a low level Commoner to lower that defence, more powerful classes just have more options and can do it in more style.

Soon: His gate was very heavily defended, it has a sizable force defending it as well as a special forces group comprised of people with PC Class Levels. There's magic on their side (it is a city) and they even have that ace in the throne room. Whoever sits on the throne of Azure City, is one of the most heavily defended people in the world. Which is why Shojo's death is a little ironic. :smallamused:

Girard: Had a rotor, he knew Spells didn't last forever and that they would need to be maintained, he was a lot smarter than his message had some of us believe. I wasn't counting Dorukan or Lyrian as defences though, so I'm assuming the only thing Girard's descendants have done (for the challenge), is update the spells recently. Right so, if you can manage to find your way through Windy Canyon, you still have to find the Pyramid, after that, there's a series of deadly traps in a maze of illusions. After that, we'll see when The Giant has finished drawing it.
Then again, Girard's family are part of the defences he left behind, and isn't that what this is about? Who left behind the best defences?

Kraagor: Let's wait until it's drawn shall we? :smallwink:


Without knowing exactly what defences Lirian had in place, I can firmly say that I believe Dorukan, left behind the worst defences.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Why wouldn't you count the epic level characters defending the gates? They're certainly part of the defenses. An epic level wizard or druid is better protection than any number of traps or wards or low level troops.

[Threadnaught]

Why wouldn't you count the epic level characters defending the gates? They're certainly part of the defenses. An epic level wizard or druid is better protection than any number of traps or wards or low level troops.

I'll count Dorukan and Lirian, if you can confirm they artificially extended their own lives in order to protect their respective gates. Otherwise, they'll die just like any other creature.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I'll count Dorukan and Lirian, if you can confirm they artificially extended their own lives in order to protect their respective gates. Otherwise, they'll die just like any other creature.

I just sort of assumed that Dourkan, at the very least, was. All the other humans in his party had died of old age and I doubt he was significantly younger than they were. Plus he was still in good enough shape to be doing the nasty with Lirian which implies that he was probably magically extending his life.

As for Lirian, she was going to live for a good long time yet naturally so it seems fair to count her if she was going to be around guarding her gate for centuries.

[sims796]

snip.

I like this post, and I agree with quite a bit of the analysis. There are some opinions that I differ on.


Lirian: This goes under SoD spoilerz, so I'll spoilz tag it.

I really disliked her first line of defense. I mean, sure, nature's fury was a sight to behold, but for pete's sake, Redcloak accidentally destroyed it with a Flame Strike spell! I mean, sure, indirectly, but still. Her second line, the mage killing virus, was quite powerful, and she has the honor of defeating Xykon. We don't know how well that could have fared against a warrior, but aren't spellcasters the most dangerous?

Dorukon: Oh lord, do I agree. Sure, he's an epic level caster, but he's still one man, who was pushing past his years anyway. From what we've seen, all he left behind was that one measly rune. Once Xykon's forces took the castle, they had all the time in the world to discover its secrets and undo that sigil.

Soon: Agreed 100%. Excellent first line defenses, and a beautiful second line of defense that can only catch you by surprise. People say that if Xykon had retreated then he would have stood a chance. That's assuming it's easy to walk away from that sort of trap. It was pure luck that Xykon got out of there alive. Er, less dead.

The best thing about that defense is that it thought in the long term. After Soon's gone, then what? Oh, he'll leave it up to his army to defend it.

Girard: Once again, agreed. It's the fact that he thought in the long term that makes it so powerful. Even if you've managed to get past the assumable powerful, powerful enchantments, you still have a family of powerful sorcerers to back it up. Only a guy like Xykon, who has all the time in the world, could find it, and it doesn't seem that he even has any divination abilities.

It was pure chance that his gate was made so easily compromisable at this point, as he had no way of even knowing that spell existed. I can see him screaming "h4x0rz" right now from wherever he is in the afterlife. A total Deus Ex Machina from his perspective.

[Giggling Ghast]

Dorukon: Oh lord, do I agree. Sure, he's an epic level caster, but he's still one man, who was pushing past his years anyway. From what we've seen, all he left behind was that one measly rune. Once Xykon's forces took the castle, they had all the time in the world to discover its secrets and undo that sigil.

Where do you guys get the idea that the rune was Dorukan's only line of defence? Xykon killed Dorukan about six months before the Order of the Stick entered the dungeon and spent a good portion of that time just conquering the castle.

You can see from earlier strips that he had a number of monsters guarding the Talisman of Dorukan, which controlled the creatures from outdated editions. Why do you think he would prioritize the talisman's defence and not the Gate? :smallconfused:

[JavaScribe]

Sure, but I'd say that was more due to Xykon being incredibly sloppy in that rather than any sort of unbeatable plan on the part of the paladins. It would have been trivially easy for Xykon to just retreat if he thought, at any point before losing, that he needed to. He and Redcloak could have then whittled the ghosts down and taken Soon out pretty easily.

But what they need to do is take out Soon permanently, or at least a few weeks. Does "killing" an Oath spirit get rid of it for good? I don't know, but it certainly doesn't for the ghost template, which is probably related. Even if Soon lost every battle, it would still interrupt the ritual from being cast if he returned every few days.


Same deal, I'd say Dorukan was just as over confident and sloppy as Xykon was with Soon. His defenses were specifically presented as impenetrable before he let himself get lured out and punked.

Personality is a really big weakness when you are the single pillar of defense.


Where do you guys get the idea that the rune was Dorukan's only line of defence? Xykon killed Dorukan about six months before the Order of the Stick entered the dungeon and spent a good portion of that time just conquering the castle.

You can see from earlier strips that he had a number of monsters guarding the Talisman of Dorukan, which controlled the creatures from outdated editions. Why do you think he would prioritize the talisman's defence and not the Gate? :smallconfused:

Those monsters barely inconvenienced a party of mid-level adventurers.Whatever defenses were left clearly didn't matter to an epic lich.

[Koo Rehtorb]

But what they need to do is take out Soon permanently, or at least a few weeks. Does "killing" an Oath spirit get rid of it for good? I don't know, but it certainly doesn't for the ghost template, which is probably related. Even if Soon lost every battle, it would still interrupt the ritual from being cast if he returned every few days.

Fair point. I don't know either and this seems unanswerable. Now I have to ask what counts as "defending" a gate though, preventing the ritual or just protecting the gate from destruction in general? Because Soon would be significantly less adept at the latter even if this theory is true.



Personality is a really big weakness when you are the single pillar of defense.

Also a fair point, but keep in mind that Dourkan got struck at probably his biggest psychological weak point, Lirian. It was really unfortunate that someone had exactly the right bait to draw him out (by accident) and doesn't mean that he would have taken the bait for anything else that might have tried to tempt him.

[Bastian Weaver]

Of the three gates that we've seen, Soon's, probably. We haven't seen Girard's yet, to say nothing of Kraagor's. And Soon left a rather interesting surprise for anyone who would breach Azure City's defenses. Yes, it is possible that Soon himself was the only one who could destroy an epic lich, but then again, it proved to be enough.
And by the way, I've never thought there's so many ways to misspell Dorukan's name until this thread. :smallcool:

[Winter]

Xykon killed Dorukan about six months before the Order of the Stick entered the dungeon and spent a good portion of that time just conquering the castle.

Actually, he did not conquer the largest part of the dungeon, but left it in place and used is as his defense now. So the largest part of the dungeon did not protect any sigils or whatever.

Even worse: The Order hit the gate (yes, they used the employee-stairs at one point) without going through all of the dungeon. In what game did you ever hit such a setup? A dungeon where you can reach the final room (where the portal, the big bad, the whateverstone lies) without having hacked your way through every monster and every trap?
Dorukan misplanned the whole thing in a very inefficient way if you can outright skip a large part of the defenses.

[Kish]

I think there is a good chance that no one without the non-coerced aid of a Lawful Good creature could have skipped those stairs, but more importantly, it wasn't full of monsters before. The monsters the Order fought through all worked for Xykon, except when the Order was working for Nale. Dorukan's principle gate defense was himself.

[rockdeworld]

Concerning Soon's gate, I don't think it's accurate to say "he had a bunch of ghost-martyrs in a trap that would take anyone by surprise and kill them, ergo it's the strongest." While Hinjo referred to the living as the reinforcements, and the ghosts as the main body, I think that in fact once the defense was reduced to the ghost martyrs, it was severely weakened. Two casters killed most of them with ease (one using Turn Paladin Ghost, the other with Magic Missile). Soon was the only one left, and let's face it: if your only defense against the destruction of a fragile gem is a ghost paladin, you're really betting on the lame horse.

As others have said, these were epic characters who could rightly expect epic level enemies to attack them. Basically, it seems to me that the defenses so far boil down to these:
Dorukan: An old epic mage. Defense gone when he dies.
Soon: A bunch of ghost paladins and an army in a walled city. Vulnerable to Scry-and-Smash (considering how long it took them to arise), or long-range telekinesis.
Girard: A location that's nigh-impossible to find with non-epic magic. Haley finds it with a successful gather information check.

Of the 3, I'd say Girard had the best plan for a defense, although we haven't seen anything that could stop epic divinations, so I dunno. Dorukon, on the other hand, did have one that wasn't permanent, so dunno what his plan was.

[Winter]

I think there is a good chance that no one without the non-coerced aid of a Lawful Good creature could have skipped those stairs, but more importantly, it wasn't full of monsters before.

If the order had been a bit more high level, they could have made better search and spot checks to find those doors on their own. They could have tortured/enchanted/tricked employees to point out any secrets. There's so much that can go bad if you have those shortcuts in the first place.

The monsters working for Xykon - we do know he did not bother with a large part of the fortress... so what were those places there for if not for defence?

On top of that I think the Dungeon is laughable low level for what Dorukan expected. One pretty unplanned and not-that-smart epic sorcerer and a bunch of goblins were enough to take out most of the fortress on their own.
Xykon could just have waited another 10 years and let Dorukan die of old age and he'd have walking in all the same.

It is similar for Lirian, but her defense was pretty effective. But as the comic stated, it was not shown if a simple heal could blast her defense out of the water. The rest of the forest defense was no match for an epic threat (and she herself did not really hold up to much when it got serious).

So far, Soon and Girard seem to have done much better and more importantly, both had planned for the future and even took themselves as "fighting factor" out of the defense. That was well-thought of them. We should not be too hard to Lirian, though. She was an elf and expected to live much longer, so it was not her part to ponder her "legacy".

[Koo Rehtorb]

Dorukan: An old epic mage. Defense gone when he dies.

Dorukon, on the other hand, did have one that wasn't permanent, so dunno what his plan was.

I strongly suspect Dourkan planned on using magic to counteract old age and live indefinitely. And I think, in fact, there is some evidence to support that fact that he was already in the process of using this magic, given that he outlived the other humans in his adventuring group.

[Smolder]

What data we have point to a strong likelihood that Rich will draw the conclusion of this story around about Kraagor's Gate.


:smallsmile:

Actually, I thought the conclusion will happen at Xykon's Astral Plane fortress. But I'm basing that solely on the fact that it would make a more awesome dungeon crawling location than anything Kraagor and Serini cooked up.

I will just say that while Soon had the largest defenses (by square mileage) that doesn't make them the best. In fact, I'd argue that putting the captiol city of your region over top of an important metaphysical landmark is only asking for trouble. History is full of city-states that were invaded and burned to the ground for much less than a magical gate to nowhere. It was really only a matter of time until some neighboring army attacked or some internal intrigue (probably Kubota) knocked Soon's descendents off the throne.

By the same logic, I'd argue Girard's gate was quite wel defended, in that even the most powerful scryers couldn't locate the valley until after Familicide struck. Had that not happened, I'd bet that Girard's gate would have been the last to be found and thus the last to fall.

But all of the gates must fall before the story ends. Here's why: It's much easier to deal with one extra-planar foe with some new magical deus-ex-machina after it escapes than it is to go back and repair all the gates that were destroyed. Simple logistics.

[Threadnaught]

Concerning Soon's gate, I don't think it's accurate to say "he had a bunch of ghost-martyrs in a trap that would take anyone by surprise and kill them, ergo it's the strongest."

Nobody is saying that, that's what detractors are interperating. If you think about what the defences have to do you'll notice that an Epic Lich is only one threat the gate defenders could face. Possibly the hardest thing to defend against.
I've seen many people point out the flaws with Soon's defences because Rebuke Undead, an army of Hobgoblins and undead, and Epic Lich. I haven't noticed anyone point out the weakneses of Girard's defences, because Familicide, though.


Of the 3, I'd say Girard had the best plan for a defense, although we haven't seen anything that could stop epic divinations, so I dunno.

Why is Girard's plan the best? We haven't seen everything yet, who knows? Maybe he had ways to bypass the traps, which would be reasonable because maintainance. Ignoring the difference in power level between Casters and Non Casters, Soon and Girard both had very similar ways of protecting their respective gates in terms of effectiveness. Neither defender has to be there, freeing them up to do other things.
It is wrong for you or anyone else to give (or detract) any credit to a defender based on the location of the gate, the gates are where the rifts were found so the defenders are only working with what they have. It is kinda hard to hide a fortified maze of death in the sky. :smallamused:


Dorukon, on the other hand, did have one that wasn't permanent, so dunno what his plan was.

He was most likely into the whole thing for Lirian. And as a result wouldn't have had much of a plan to fall back on should it be required.


I strongly suspect Dourkan planned on using magic to counteract old age and live indefinitely. And I think, in fact, there is some evidence to support that fact that he was already in the process of using this magic, given that he outlived the other humans in his adventuring group.

Given that he was probably in his 20s and just out of Wizard School when he joined the Order of the Scribble, while everyone else (aka the other two guys) was likely pushing 50, that wouldn't be too difficult. Shojo being able to go from being a child (while Dorukan is in his 50s) to his 80s with Dorukan still alive. Dorukan would've been around the 120-150 mark before he died, but how long had he been able to extend his life? How much resources did he have to spend to gain the extra time? How much more would he need to live longer? What kind of contingencies did he have in place, just in case he did die? Oh right, a single rune easily bypassed by the kindness of the ignorant. At least we know what his long term plan was. And that it sucked. :smallannoyed:

[sims796]

Where do you guys get the idea that the rune was Dorukan's only line of defence? Xykon killed Dorukan about six months before the Order of the Stick entered the dungeon and spent a good portion of that time just conquering the castle.

You can see from earlier strips that he had a number of monsters guarding the Talisman of Dorukan, which controlled the creatures from outdated editions. Why do you think he would prioritize the talisman's defence and not the Gate? :smallconfused:

I'll say that I personally see the gliph as the main line of defense because after Dorukan was defeated, Xykon was able to leisurely take his time dismantling his other defenses.

[Snails]

I think that most of them weren't a threat at all, though. Most of those are still going to be low level schlubs that have no chance of even getting through Xykon's DR. Soon was the real danger, the rest were just a distraction.

Perhaps. Putting my rulesgeeking hat on, I do not think it is the best interpretation of what we see.

Mind you, I am not arguing that a good writer should adhere to the details of the rules. But if we are going to geek out about who made the best defenses, I think that going back to the general sense of the rules and how D&D plays at the table is a reasonable place to argue from.

We have good reason to believe that the number of middling level schlubs was not few (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) -- we see ~25 paladins bite the dust as last minute reinforcement, some of which were definitely in the middling levels. There are common tricks that could potentially pierce DR, easily available to middling level character, e.g. Power Attack feat. Paladins can cast Bless Weapon. There are feats. Positive energy beings are likely to have more options.

Even assuming most are low level schlubs could not do enough damage to matter, they can Aid Other (for a +2 to hit bonus to some ally) and make it far easier for the few strong paladin ghosts to hit. The schlubs may disappear after a couple rounds, but Xykon has to live that long for killing them to matter.

It is not difficult to figure out how at least few of those random middling level ghosts could be swinging and hitting for 30+ damage. At that point DR is not going to be helpful enough, assuming the ghost completely lacks any subtle means of bypassing DR.

Keep in mind, that it is difficult to see how Xykon could have more than 200 hit points when he is at full strength. It is quite possible that he has no more than 150 at fulll strength. Recall that Xykon is not at full strength -- he still carries marks from getting hit by Roy.

Soon himself could be easily hitting for more than 50 points per swing (Str + Power Attack + Smite Evil + weapon damage), and getting 4 or more attack per round. Xykon's DR should not really matter.

[Winter]

I strongly suspect Dourkan planned on using magic to counteract old age and live indefinitely.

How? Immortality in fiction and D&D usually comes at a steep price (and is far from secure).

[JavaScribe]

What I kind of wonder about Dorukan and Lirian's future planning is why they didn't bother to have any heirs. They were a sleeping couple for quite some time after all.

[AgentofOdd]

How? Immortality in fiction and D&D usually comes at a steep price (and is far from secure).Using Reincarnate (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Reincarnate) and Wishing yourself back to your original race is one option thought that would require the player to kill themselves first. As an epic mage, Dorukan could also change himself into a whole new body with the Transform Epic Spell Seed (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Transform_(Epic_Spell_Seed)), maybe create a new body for himself with the Life Seed (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Life_(Epic_Spell_Seed)), etc.

[GnomeGninjas]

I've seen many people point out the flaws with Soon's defences because Rebuke Undead, an army of Hobgoblins and undead, and Epic Lich. I haven't noticed anyone point out the weakneses of Girard's defences, because Familicide, though.


Familicide is an epic spell developed by a caster who is currently dead. It is pretty hard to get a hold of. Someone soul splicing with said epic caster, using familicide,hitting Draketooth's distant cousin, and then finding the gate is pretty unlikely. On the other hand having and army that can overrun Azure City and having some highish level clerics with rebuke undead wouldn't be that unlikely for a powerful villain who is trying trying to take the gates.

Edit: Also if someone got Familicide and was using it to kill off the the defenders off the gate no one would be safe. Cast it on Doruken's nephew, use it to kill off most of the noble houses in Azure city, find someone related to Lirian.

[Koo Rehtorb]

the number of middling level schlubs was not few (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) -- we see ~25 paladins bite the dust as last minute reinforcement, some of which were definitely in the middling levels. There are common tricks that could potentially pierce DR, easily available to middling level character, e.g. Power Attack feat. Paladins can cast Bless Weapon. There are feats. Positive energy beings are likely to have more options.

Okay, let's talk rules. Let's define "mid-level" as level 6ish, okay? That means, with full power attack, they're hitting for maybe around 17 damage, 2 damage to Xykon after his DR, which is consistent with Xykon's "most of them just sting a little" line. Bless Weapon does nothing to help them as they're all using slashing weapons and it still needs to be a magical blunt weapon to pierce his DR. Presumably Xykon isn't a cretin with zero buffs available so in trade for being able to ding him they're probably only landing full power attacks on natural 20s. And sure you could say that, as positive energy spirits, they get some sort of bonus damage vs undead or whatever, but I don't think it's supported by the comic evidence when Xykon says most of them barely scratch him. 2 damage every 20 average attacks adds up, but it sure isn't a ton, it's a distraction.


Keep in mind, that it is difficult to see how Xykon could have more than 200 hit points when he is at full strength. It is quite possible that he has no more than 150 at fulll strength. Recall that Xykon is not at full strength -- he still carries marks from getting hit by Roy.

Actually, Tsukiko healed him after the Roy fight.


Soon himself could be easily hitting for more than 50 points per swing (Str + Power Attack + Smite Evil + weapon damage), and getting 4 or more attack per round. Xykon's DR should not really matter.

DR isn't his only defense. He's presumably loaded up with a number of different AC boosting buffs. Soon does hurt him, but Soon is definitely trading power attack for chances to hit which means Xykon isn't getting hit that often if Soon wants to hit hard enough to really make a dent through the DR.

There's also the fact that Xykon did survive alone vs the entire room full of them for, what, ten minutes, until Redcloak arrived. Clearly they weren't that dangerous to him.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Using Reincarnate (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Reincarnate) and Wishing yourself back to your original race is one option thought that would require the player to kill themselves first. As an epic mage, Dorukan could also change himself into a whole new body with the Transform Epic Spell Seed (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Transform_(Epic_Spell_Seed)), maybe create a new body for himself with the Life Seed (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Life_(Epic_Spell_Seed)), etc.

You can also cheese with Polymorph any Object and polymorph yourself into a younger duplicate of your own body. Whatever. There's plenty of ways for a powerful mage to cheat death indefinitely in 3.5e.

[Threadnaught]

Familicide is an epic spell developed by a caster who is currently dead. It is pretty hard to get a hold of.

The army, I'll give you. The Azure City forces and Saphire Guard did well enough against them though, as far as can be expected. An Epic level Lich though... It seems, we're not allowed to judge Girard's defence based on an Epic Spell because Epic levels are exceedingly rare, but Soon's was bad because Epic Lichs are all over the place?


I'm just glad to see nobody else giving Girard credit for having the gate in the middle of nowhere and using Soon's tower as a detrimental factor.

[AgentofOdd]

The army, I'll give you. The Azure City forces and Saphire Guard did well enough against them though, as far as can be expected. An Epic level Lich though... It seems, we're not allowed to judge Girard's defence based on an Epic Spell because Epic levels are exceedingly rare, but Soon's was bad because Epic Lichs are all over the place?While I don't think Soon's Gate was bad because it couldn't stand up to an epic lich, a caster capable of a spell like Familicide makes the likes of Xykon and Dorukan seem like a bunch of first year students struggling to move a block of wood with their burgeoning craft. Xykon is epic, but Hareta was pretty much a goddess in all but name.

[GnomeGninjas]

The army, I'll give you. The Azure City forces and Saphire Guard did well enough against them though, as far as can be expected. An Epic level Lich though... It seems, we're not allowed to judge Girard's defence based on an Epic Spell because Epic levels are exceedingly rare, but Soon's was bad because Epic Lichs are all over the place?


I'm just glad to see nobody else giving Girard credit for having the gate in the middle of nowhere and using Soon's tower as a detrimental factor.
.
It wouldn't take an epic lich. The epic lich didn't actually contribute that much to the battle. He killed a horde of paladins in the throne room (quite an accomplishment but it doesn't require being a lich or being an epic level spell caster, a thousand or so soldiers or a non-epic caster with symbol of insanity could probably wipe them out) and he killed a lot of the ghost martyrs (also impressive but a group of lower lever sorcerers or another Redcloak level cleric (characters that level are pretty rare but not as rare as epic lichs) could probably have done that.

[sims796]

While I don't think Soon's Gate was bad because it couldn't stand up to an epic lich, a caster capable of a spell like Familicide makes the likes of Xykon and Dorukan seem like a bunch of first year students struggling to move a block of wood with their burgeoning craft. Xykon is epic, but Hareta was pretty much a goddess in all but name.

I would so love to learn more about her myself. That sort of power...V managed to wipe out about a third of the Black Dragon line on a whim.

[Eigenclass]

See, I think each of the gates could have been absolutely invincible as designed (at least to the LG/Xykon). What really did them in was hamartia (I actually thought of this when someone mentioned Hareta actually), indicating hubris on the part of their guardian. In other words, each of the gates thus far fell because of a fatal flaw on part of the Order of the Scribble member that defended them.

Dorukan's Gate: Dorukan seemed to put his faith in wards and abjurations (I wonder if he was in fact an Abjurer). His weakness was that he thought it was possible to ward everything, and then failed to consider one thing he should have warded.
Dorukan forgot to ward himself, specifically against negative energy, which enabled Xykon to basically own him with one spell. As an epic wizard, Dorukan should have been able to get access to an item with the Death Ward effect - note that even Xykon, the alleged blunt instrument, had the forethought to carry a ring which protected him against positive energy attacks. Xykon was camped out at Redmountain for a while, so Dorukan should have been able to acquire something even after Xykon arrived, or at least hire some allies that could cast Death Ward before going out to engage a known necromancer.

Lirian's Gate: Total SoD spoiler.
Lirian clearly hated the undead as unnatural abominations, but because they are "icky" and offend her delicate elven/druidic senses, she failed to ward specifically against undead and was totally defenseless. She didn't bother to even learn their abilities (apparently she didn't know liches have electricity immunity or DR/bludgeoning). Her weakness was to let her love for the "natural order" make her disregard threats outside of it.

Soon Gate: Soon put all his faith in that "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" - clearly he was wrong, and paladins' honor is plenty breakable. It was Miko and her broken honor that smashed his gate. It could also be said that the honor of the Sapphire Guard was broken when Shojo took leadership, since his lawbreaking ways undermined the leadership of Azure City and fostered internal strife. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Girard's Gate: Girard conversely didn't put much faith in honor, and apparently raised a house of cheats and swindlers, but this has its own consequences. If it wasn't for the pain Orrin caused Penelope by betraying and robbing her, the LG and OOTS might not have found the Windy Canyon. If Penelope had just gone to live in Windy Canyon, she could have disappeared along with Orrin and then there'd be no one to trace.

So far, we haven't seen any blatant character flaws on Serini's part. Maybe this means Kraagor's Gate, which she designed, will be the best protected, because it's the only one that might escape the hubris which doomed all the others.

[sims796]

See, I think each of the gates could have been absolutely invincible as designed (at least to the LG/Xykon). What really did them in was hamartia (I actually thought of this when someone mentioned Hareta actually), indicating hubris on the part of their guardian. In other words, each of the gates thus far fell because of a fatal flaw on part of the Order of the Scribble member that defended them.

Dorukan's Gate: Dorukan seemed to put his faith in wards and abjurations (I wonder if he was in fact an Abjurer). His weakness was that he thought it was possible to ward everything, and then failed to consider one thing he should have warded.
Dorukan forgot to ward himself, specifically against negative energy, which enabled Xykon to basically own him with one spell. As an epic wizard, Dorukan should have been able to get access to an item with the Death Ward effect - note that even Xykon, the alleged blunt instrument, had the forethought to carry a ring which protected him against positive energy attacks. Xykon was camped out at Redmountain for a while, so Dorukan should have been able to acquire something even after Xykon arrived, or at least hire some allies that could cast Death Ward before going out to engage a known necromancer.

Lirian's Gate: Total SoD spoiler.
Lirian clearly hated the undead as unnatural abominations, but because they are "icky" and offend her delicate elven/druidic senses, she failed to ward specifically against undead and was totally defenseless. She didn't bother to even learn their abilities (apparently she didn't know liches have electricity immunity or DR/bludgeoning). Her weakness was to let her love for the "natural order" make her disregard threats outside of it.

Soon Gate: Soon put all his faith in that "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" - clearly he was wrong, and paladins' honor is plenty breakable. It was Miko and her broken honor that smashed his gate. It could also be said that the honor of the Sapphire Guard was broken when Shojo took leadership, since his lawbreaking ways undermined the leadership of Azure City and fostered internal strife. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Girard's Gate: Girard conversely didn't put much faith in honor, and apparently raised a house of cheats and swindlers, but this has its own consequences. If it wasn't for the pain Orrin caused Penelope by betraying and robbing her, the LG and OOTS might not have found the Windy Canyon. If Penelope had just gone to live in Windy Canyon, she could have disappeared along with Orrin and then there'd be no one to trace.

So far, we haven't seen any blatant character flaws on Serini's part. Maybe this means Kraagor's Gate, which she designed, will be the best protected, because it's the only one that might escape the hubris which doomed all the others.

To be fair, it doesn't seem like many people know much at all about liches.

[Emperordaniel]

How? Immortality in fiction and D&D usually comes at a steep price (and is far from secure).

Using Reincarnate (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Reincarnate) and Wishing yourself back to your original race is one option thought that would require the player to kill themselves first. As an epic mage, Dorukan could also change himself into a whole new body with the Transform Epic Spell Seed (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Transform_(Epic_Spell_Seed)), maybe create a new body for himself with the Life Seed (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Life_(Epic_Spell_Seed)), etc.

There's also the Epic feat Extended Life Span ("http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan) from the SRD, which adds half of your race's maximum age modifier to your original Middle-aged, Old, and Venerable age categories; it can be taken multiple times, allowing its effects to stack. :smallwink:

[ManuelSacha]

Lirian (defeated Team Evil), followed by Soon (almost defeated Team Evil).

[Ninja Dragon]

Lirian's was the weakest, it was crushed as soon as it was attacked by an epic level enemy. All the gates' defenses would have defeated Team Evil if Xykon wasn't a lich, but Lirian's was the only gate that could do nothing against lich Xykon.

Soon's was the strongest, since it was the only one that managed to stop Xykon.

Dorukan' was also very strong. It resisted Xykon for months, and even after Dorukan died, it was impossible to capture unless a good person touched it, which gave the chance for the OOTS to defeat Xykon before he completed the rituals.

Girard's is presentely the weakest one. I don't know how powerful it was before Familicide, tough. But if its defense could be completely destroyed with a single spell, I have to conclude it was not one of the best defended gates.

[Aasimar]

See, I think each of the gates could have been absolutely invincible as designed (at least to the LG/Xykon). What really did them in was hamartia (I actually thought of this when someone mentioned Hareta actually), indicating hubris on the part of their guardian. In other words, each of the gates thus far fell because of a fatal flaw on part of the Order of the Scribble member that defended them.

Dorukan's Gate: Dorukan seemed to put his faith in wards and abjurations (I wonder if he was in fact an Abjurer). His weakness was that he thought it was possible to ward everything, and then failed to consider one thing he should have warded.
Dorukan forgot to ward himself, specifically against negative energy, which enabled Xykon to basically own him with one spell. As an epic wizard, Dorukan should have been able to get access to an item with the Death Ward effect - note that even Xykon, the alleged blunt instrument, had the forethought to carry a ring which protected him against positive energy attacks. Xykon was camped out at Redmountain for a while, so Dorukan should have been able to acquire something even after Xykon arrived, or at least hire some allies that could cast Death Ward before going out to engage a known necromancer.

Lirian's Gate: Total SoD spoiler.
Lirian clearly hated the undead as unnatural abominations, but because they are "icky" and offend her delicate elven/druidic senses, she failed to ward specifically against undead and was totally defenseless. She didn't bother to even learn their abilities (apparently she didn't know liches have electricity immunity or DR/bludgeoning). Her weakness was to let her love for the "natural order" make her disregard threats outside of it.

Soon Gate: Soon put all his faith in that "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" - clearly he was wrong, and paladins' honor is plenty breakable. It was Miko and her broken honor that smashed his gate. It could also be said that the honor of the Sapphire Guard was broken when Shojo took leadership, since his lawbreaking ways undermined the leadership of Azure City and fostered internal strife. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Girard's Gate: Girard conversely didn't put much faith in honor, and apparently raised a house of cheats and swindlers, but this has its own consequences. If it wasn't for the pain Orrin caused Penelope by betraying and robbing her, the LG and OOTS might not have found the Windy Canyon. If Penelope had just gone to live in Windy Canyon, she could have disappeared along with Orrin and then there'd be no one to trace.

So far, we haven't seen any blatant character flaws on Serini's part. Maybe this means Kraagor's Gate, which she designed, will be the best protected, because it's the only one that might escape the hubris which doomed all the others.

Great post.

Also, Girard's flaw was his faith in family, and his defense was annihilated by a spell that specifically attacked family. If he had had even a single person there with him who was not family, some sort of contingency might have been activated, or a raise-dead cast or...well, anything.

edit: It's especially egregious that the spell was cast against distant family that he didn't know, for reasons completely unrelated to his defense.

[GnomeGninjas]

All the gates' defenses would have defeated Team Evil if Xykon wasn't a lich, but Lirian's was the only gate that could do nothing against lich Xykon.


Why do you think that they could have defeated non-lich Xykon?

[Winter]

Also, Girard's flaw was his faith in family, and his defense was annihilated by a spell that specifically attacked family.

I doubt he is to blame for not considering a custom, extremely epic spell that even works outside of what the rules would allow coming basically from nowhere.

[Forikroder]

The weakest is probably girard gate

id argue kraagars since its only being protected by monsters


Why do you think that they could have defeated non-lich Xykon?

lich Xykon > non-lich Xykon if Xykon wasnt a lich Soon would have his head and Durokan would have won the fight

you know as powerful as Zykon is isnt it kinda odd that out of the epic level people weve seen hes the weakest?

Haerta came up with Familicide, Durokon, Lirian and Soon either beat him in a fight or (in dorukons case) could have beat him

aside from the other 2 souls shackled to V Xykon seems like the weakest link

[Aasimar]

I doubt he is to blame for not considering a custom, extremely epic spell that even works outside of what the rules would allow coming basically from nowhere.

Not blamed, no...not as such.

But each of the gates has been foiled by the protectors faith in some one thing, or lack of consideration for some weakness.

Dorukan warding everything except himself from negative energy.
Lirian being awesomely protected against everything in the natural world, but being undone when attacked by something unnatural.
Soon placing his faith in the unbreakable honor of the paladin and being stopped at the last moment from stopping Xykon, by a fallen paladin
Girard placing emphasis on family, to the point where he had no fallback when something struck against his family specifically.

[Winter]

Yes, correct. But I hardly think it is a shortcoming in any defense not to take a supercharged kill-everything spell into account. Familicide would have wiped out any possible defense for any gate (or anything else). So while it is a theoretical weakness it'd not consider it to be one.
As a weakness is something you could have planned against. Some god stomping you down out of clear weather is no weakness - and familicide is basically just that.

[sims796]

Yes, correct. But I hardly think it is a shortcoming in any defense not to take a supercharged kill-everything spell into account. Familicide would have wiped out any possible defense for any gate (or anything else). So while it is a theoretical weakness it'd not consider it to be one.
As a weakness is something you could have planned against. Some god stomping you down out of clear weather is no weakness - and familicide is basically just that.

As i stated, from Girard's point of view, that spell was nothing short of a Deus Ex Machina. Not to the story, it was very creative story-telling, but there was no way he could have possibly defended against it, because such a thing plain didn't exist. Cept it did.

[Aasimar]

It's still an all-eggs in one basket kind of mistake. If anyone had been around who was not part of his family and could've gotten help or would've been trusted to help them get raised, that would've been defense enough.

[Forum Explorer]

I'll count Dorukan and Lirian, if you can confirm they artificially extended their own lives in order to protect their respective gates. Otherwise, they'll die just like any other creature.

Lirian is an elf druid so she can expect to live for hundreds of years without suffering any age effects. As such she likely wouldn't bother planning a legacy for a little while at least.


What I kind of wonder about Dorukan and Lirian's future planning is why they didn't bother to have any heirs. They were a sleeping couple for quite some time after all.

Who do you think is going to replace Belkar? :smallwink:


Why do you think that they could have defeated non-lich Xykon?

SoD spoilers
Lirian did. She had some crazy virus thing that targeted living creatures and shut down their ability to use spellcasting or something like that. However she wasn't willing to kill Team Evil when they were at her mercy and Redcloak turned Xykon into a lich (a being that Lirian knew absolutely nothing about and which very few people do.)

Anyways Lirian should get more credit. Liches seem to be pretty much unknown except for a few select individuals. Even the epic level Necromancer didn't know about them. Any lower level undead I think Lirian could handle on her own.


Yes, correct. But I hardly think it is a shortcoming in any defense not to take a supercharged kill-everything spell into account. Familicide would have wiped out any possible defense for any gate (or anything else). So while it is a theoretical weakness it'd not consider it to be one.
As a weakness is something you could have planned against. Some god stomping you down out of clear weather is no weakness - and familicide is basically just that.

Problem was that Nale and the OotS were both on their trail, no magic needed. It's unlikely that Girad's descendants were also Epic level so Tarquin seems like he would have wiped them out.

[GnomeGninjas]

id argue kraagars since its only being protected by monsters
lich Xykon > non-lich Xykon if Xykon wasnt a lich Soon would have his head and Durokan would have won the fight


I agree about Durokan but being a lich wouldn't have helped to much against Soon. Since he was a lich and his phylactery was near by he was at risk of perma-death. If he wasn't a lich then sure, Soon could have killed him and Redcloak but some hobgoblins could run in and retrieve his body and a nameless cleric could resurrect him.

[Leolo]

The gate of the oracle. Even Xykon was standing in front of it and couldn't get what he wanted.

[ManuelSacha]

"Coulda shoulda woulda" is a silly argument.
Speculations on what could have happened if he was a Lich at the time, or if he wasn't later on, are pointless.
Maybe he would have lost/won anyway a specific battle, or maybe not. We'll never know.
Speculations on how much his power got bumped when going from epic sorcerer to epic lich sorcerer are equally pointless. Almost as much as speculations on Lirian's, Dorukan's, Soon's, etc... level, and thus their relative power compared to both forms.
The difference in Xykon's power (before and after) might have been significative compared to theirs (in an otherwise identical situation), or it may have not. We'll never know.

What we do know is what Xykon accomplished, and what he didn't:
1) He was defeated by Lirian's defences. And lately managed to defeat them in the rematch, but only by taking them by surprise.
2) He was almost defeated by Soon's defences. Only a random event saved his bones.
3) He defeated Dorukan's defences, with some trouble.
4) As far as we now, he doesn't even need to defeat Girard's defences.

-) We still don't know what exactly Serini's gate holds and what Xykon will or won't accomplish there.

[Cizak]

3) He defeated Dorukan's defences, with some trouble.

Not entirely true. He did defeat Dorukan himself, but he never did get past the rune on top of the Gate, and it ended up destroying his body.

[PeglegJim]

Not blamed, no...not as such.

But each of the gates has been foiled by the protectors faith in some one thing, or lack of consideration for some weakness.

Dorukan warding everything except himself from negative energy.
Lirian being awesomely protected against everything in the natural world, but being undone when attacked by something unnatural.
Soon placing his faith in the unbreakable honor of the paladin and being stopped at the last moment from stopping Xykon, by a fallen paladin
Girard placing emphasis on family, to the point where he had no fallback when something struck against his family specifically.

Hey that makes perfect sense actually. Except for the Dorukan one.

I'm thinking with Dorukan it may have something to do with him being a wizard or his relationship with Lirian because those were the two prominent things about him. However I don't want to get all obsessive with cataloging things, so I'll just leave it at that.

[Threadnaught]

Not entirely true. He did defeat Dorukan himself, but he never did get past the rune on top of the Gate, and it ended up destroying his body.

All you need to break Dorukan's final defence, is to know how to break it, then find a schmuck. Reason Xykon wasted all that time killing minions instead of finding someone who could break it, was because it was funny.

[Winter]

Reason Xykon wasted all that time killing minions instead of finding someone who could break it, was because it was funny.

More because he was inefficient and lazy. But it comes down to the very same.

[sims796]

All you need to break Dorukan's final defence, is to know how to break it, then find a schmuck. Reason Xykon wasted all that time killing minions instead of finding someone who could break it, was because it was funny.

That final defense was nothing more than a fancy combination lock, all it takes is time to find the right order of numbers.

It wasn't a bad defense, it did stop Xykon long enough for the heroes to clean up, which is all that is necessary.

[Winter]

Problem was that Nale and the OotS were both on their trail, no magic needed. It's unlikely that Girad's descendants were also Epic level so Tarquin seems like he would have wiped them out.

We do not know Tarquin's level. And with the right setup, a bunch of smart level 1 kobolds can kill epic characters.

[SoC175]

All the gates' defenses would have defeated Team Evil if Xykon wasn't a lich, but Lirian's was the only gate that could do nothing against lich Xykon.I have to disagree here. Lirian's gate was the only one affected by Xykon being a lich, for the other gates it would have made no difference if Xykon would have been a human mage of the same level instead of a lich

lich Xykon > non-lich Xykon if Xykon wasnt a lich Soon would have his head and Durokan would have won the fight I have to disagree here. None of the lich tratis made any differences in the fights with Soon and Durokan.

A non-lich Xykon might even have been stronger since he wouldn't have the level adjustment curb his actual sorcerer levels.

Lirian was the only one who lost her fighter specifically due to the lich traits. In all other fights they might just as well have not been there

[Forum Explorer]

We do not know Tarquin's level. And with the right setup, a bunch of smart level 1 kobolds can kill epic characters.

Good point, it doesn't matter what level they were, Tarquin would have won. :smallwink:

[Peelee]

I have to disagree here. Lirian's gate was the only one affected by Xykon being a lich, for the other gates it would have made no difference if Xykon would have been a human mage of the same level instead of a lich
I have to disagree here. None of the lich tratis made any differences in the fights with Soon and Durokan.

A non-lich Xykon might even have been stronger since he wouldn't have the level adjustment curb his actual sorcerer levels.

Lirian was the only one who lost her fighter specifically due to the lich traits. In all other fights they might just as well have not been there

Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

Armor Class
A lich has a +5 natural armor bonus or the base creature’s natural armor bonus, whichever is better.

Damage Reduction (Su)
A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm)

I would argue that, especially at Soon's gate, his lich abilities directly contributed to him living much longer than he otherwise would have.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Non-lich Xykon would have been torn apart by the Sapphire Guard. However, non-lich Xykon might not have taken such a bold tactic in the first place.

[Winter]

A mage with a good con item has more HPs on d4s than a lich on d12s (obviously without con bonus).

The +5 AC is pretty nice, especially if you consider he was basically eq-less when getting into that fight, but +5 to AC is not *that* awesome vs. a highlevel character (who's hitting you anyway with most attacks) and surely not that special if you can boost yourself with items and magic (of which we do not know what Xykon cast before the fight).

The DR and the other undead-traits are good but vs. epic characters it is very like they know their way around those features or, even worse, know how to abuse your undead shortcomings, in which case you're, when compared to a living person, on equal footing.

Had Lirian used, for example, fire instead of lightning her attacks would have made a big difference.

The most massive boost Xykon got was the removal of all negative age-effects (body; which may or may not be according to RAW) while he could keep all the good ones (mental).

[SoC175]

Non-lich Xykon would have been torn apart by the Sapphire Guard.I diasgree here. A bunch of low and mid-level characters trying to hit and hurt an epic level character? Ha, good luck with that

A mage with a good con item has more HPs on d4s than a lich on d12s (obviously without con bonus). Indeed.

The +5 AC is pretty nice, especially if you consider he was basically eq-less when getting into that fight I don't think he was equip-less. Just because the Giant doesn't waste the time to point of the boring standard bling a character of their level is supposed to carry doesn't mean that they don't have the standard stuff.

There's a bonus comic where Belkar makes an offhand reference to having thrown his last ring of protection +1 on the trash as he no longer needs such low level items.

So we should assume that all those rings and amulets and other items that just fade into the total number on the character sheet without having any particular special effect to activel call upon to be there and simply not being mentioned


and surely not that special if you can boost yourself with items and magic (of which we do not know what Xykon cast before the fight). Something which you would cast anyway, since at this level it will grant more and overwrite the +5 from being a lich

[Koo Rehtorb]

I diasgree here. A bunch of low and mid-level characters trying to hit and hurt an epic level character? Ha, good luck with that

Specifically it's the DR part that saved his bony ass. There's plenty of evidence to support that they were hitting him enough for it to add up over the course of the combat. If he hadn't been subtracting 15 damage from every attack those dinky little attacks would have added up very quickly. Even if they're only hitting him on 20s that's still a ton of attacks landing over like 10 minutes of combat.

Of course if he wasn't cruising around in a 15 DR body then he probably would have either never tried to take on the Sapphire Guard solo, or he would have fled or something.

[Snails]

I would argue that, especially at Soon's gate, his lich abilities directly contributed to him living much longer than he otherwise would have.

I agree that is probably what we are supposed to believe.

But this only works because his opponents fought so amazingly poorly, both in life and in death. There are lots of simple tactics that might defeat a solo spellcaster, even a solo spellcaster buffed to the gills, even an Epic level solo caster buffed to the gills with an added template.

As for his DR, a simple gauntlet can have Magic Weapon or Bless Weapon cast on it, and carrying a stupid mace or club does not require much foresight. Are we really to believe that all those paladins might not consider that a bony-looking lich could have something in common with a bog standard bony-looking skeleton? It is not as if the Sapphire Guard was not on notice that a lich might come knocking.

Once the lich DR is bypassed, Xykon would still (presumably) have Stone Skin. But Stone Skin only last for 150 hit points. It is not reasonable to guess that Xykon has more than 200 hit points. 350 hit points just does not last long, even if you are AC 35.

Furthermore, unless Xykon has some kind of amazing Complete Immunity to Positive Energy, paladins can just touch attack with Lay on Hands and turn Xykon into a pile of dust in about 2 seconds.

(Note: Nothing I am saying here should be interpreted as a criticism of the Giant's excellent writing -- I do not expect him to adhere to the details of the rules. But as this thread in within the realm of speculation, I think it is fair to bring the actual rules as they were usually play at a gaming table into the discussion.)

[Koo Rehtorb]

Furthermore, unless Xykon has some kind of amazing Complete Immunity to Positive Energy, paladins can just touch attack with Lay on Hands and turn Xykon into a pile of dust in about 2 seconds.

He does have a ring of that.

[SaintRidley]

I do wish we could see what Girard's Gate was like at full defense.

[MReav]

He does have a ring of that.

Well, that would protect him against the Lay On Hands (assuming that ring wasn't lost when Xykon/the mountain blew up), but they could use LOH to deliver a Smite Attack.

[rockdeworld]

I doubt he is to blame for not considering a custom, extremely epic spell that even works outside of what the rules would allow coming basically from nowhere.
I agree with this. There's no defense that can't be beaten by a customized offense (which epic spells are, bar none). Or in the words of this forum: If it has stats, it can be killed. Any of the gate defenders could be taken out by a customized spell (and any single defender by Mind Rape + Love's Pain, which aren't even epic).

Dorukan was killed by Xykon (or so I hear - haven't read SoD), who couldn't open his gate personally but had the power to do so (by getting someone else to). Tbh, I dunno how Tarquin would've faired against that.
Soon was killed again by Xykon + Redcloak (and betrayed by a paladin who easily cracked his gem defense). His gate could've been destroyed by accident by Miko when she attacked Shojo - no ghost-defenders were helping then. Tarquin could have destroyed it too, using the same methods he did in conquering the upper part of the continent.
Girard's family was killed by a Love's Pain-type epic spell, but I don't know how (barring epic divinations) Xykon + Redcloak would have ever found his gate in the first place. Ditto for Tarquin. We have yet to see what further defenses he had. Presumably none, since we're currently watching a race instead of the order just finding the gate, but eh.

That's why I think Girard's gate was the best defended so far. Just my opinion.

[ChristianSt]

Girard's family was killed by a Love's Pain-type epic spell, but I don't know how (barring epic divinations) Xykon + Redcloak would have ever found his gate in the first place. Ditto for Tarquin.

No one was able to get the coordinates of the Gate because Girard's family was dead or because of epic divinations:
Perhaps they would have had options to stop the Order and by that way Tarquin who followed the Order with a tracked flying carpet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) - but maybe they would have even contacted the Order in the desert (if so, Tarquin/Nale would have no easy way - but maybe they would have had enough time to narrow it down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)).
Xykon/Redcloak got the coordinates from Serini's diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) - and at that moment Girard's family was still alive. (Assuming that the coordinates are correct, but after showing Xykon is ready to move, it would be more than a bit anti-climatic if Xykon would not show up at Girard's)

[ferrodoxin]

Xykon does not need to find Girard's Gate, he only needed to find Serini's diary.

I don't think Girard's defences were so good, because he failed on his own principle - trust no one but family.
His trust in Serini is what exposed his gate ....

Also Girard did not bother to defend his family against divinations when they were out in the western continent, mating with random people and stealing their children & money.
I find it likely that more than one person like Penelope could potentially go to the same diviner looking for their lost children, and the diviner could realize that there was a "Draketooth" family somewhere in the western continent, reproducing in a bizzare way.
For anyone who is looking for the gate, this information would be very valuable..

Girard, not Dorukon SHOULD have researched "cloister" before anything else for his gate..

And I don't agree with people here saying that Dorukan's gate was weakest. He had defences that prevented Xykon and his army from conquering the dungeon for a long time - that is better than what Azure city had.

And as for the Throne room, the only reason Xykon was defeated was because he acted prematurely and walked into the trap.

If he had done the same with Dorukan's gate, and tried the gate before sending in minions as a safety measure- he would have been dead. Soon's gate did not have better defences, it was just too easy and Xykon acted stupid because of it.

The fact that Soon could have defeated Xykon shows us nothing about the merit of a Gate's defences. Lirian and Dorukan also fought Xykon, and if Xykon was stupid enough to dive head in and go wasting all his spell slots on a cluster of their minions in their gates, it is possible that Lirian & Dorukan might have defeated him in combat as well.

Lirian had an army of creatures, Lirian herself and the greatest secret weapon. She won, but let Xykon live and he came back prepared.

Dorukan presumaby had a lot of magic guarding his dungeon that prevented Xykon's army from moving in for months. Xykon killed him in a duel but still could'nt touch the gate for a long time after that.

Soon had an army, which was trumped by Xykon, and a secret army to back that up. His gate seemed defenseless so Xykon acted prematurely - remember that Redcloak wanted him to hold back at that point. His defense was Xykon's childish behavior.

But even if Soon Kim had killed Xykon, then what? There is an army of hobgoblins with clerics that can "turn" his ghosts when they are not inhibited by the throne room. There is no permanent defense at the gate except for one epic character who will eventually be banished by some means, and another goblin can take on the red mantle and go on with the plan.
Soon's defense simply let evil take control of his entire city, except for the throne room.

Lirian had the best defense, because her defenses helped her entire army win against invaders even if those invaders were more powerful...
Her weakness was mercy.

Dorukan's weakness was his self-reliance. But he still has the second best defense because he kept Xykon away from the gate for a long time.

Ironically,Soon's weakness was misinformation and secrets; had he told his minions that the throne room had special defenses, O-Chul and possibly Miko would not try to destroy the gate so prematurely.

[Mike Havran]

Also Girard did not bother to defend his family against divinations when they were out in the western continent, mating with random people and stealing their children & money.

I find it likely that more than one person like Penelope could potentially go to the same diviner looking for their lost children, and the diviner could realize that there was a "Draketooth" family somewhere in the western continent, reproducing in a bizzare way.
For anyone who is looking for the gate, this information would be very valuable..

Girard was probably already dead when Orrin met Penelope, and all divinations revealed only a name, which is not so much since other members also use aliases. Even after that it was extremely hard to find them, and that was only by elimination and it took a powerful and dedicated wizard (Zz'dtri) with connection to the family (Penelope) several months. It was sheer luck that Nale's stepmother happened to be a victim of the Draketooths.

[Snails]

Soon was killed again by Xykon + Redcloak (and betrayed by a paladin who easily cracked his gem defense).

Hate to nitpick, but that is not quite correct. Soon was not defeated by Xykon + Redcloak, nor is it even proven that they were capable of defeating Soon at all. The weakness of his defenses happened to be a flaw within the Sapphire Guard itself, as demonstrated by your own arguments.

The Gate being integrated into the throne was surely a potent reminder to the Sapphire Guard that pursuit of duty served the defense of the entire world. But leaving the Gate within easy physical access of all senior paladins turned out to not be such a good idea.

Some have suggested that Soon made an error in allowing Shojo to ever rise to command the Sapphire Guard. I am not sure he can be held responsible for rewriting the inheritance rules of his very lawful society. However, I do detect an implied flaw in that Soon assumes that all paladins are going to be pretty good or better examples of paladinhood. He probably could not imagine a lousy paladin who happens to be effective enough to climb the ranks until he met Miko.

[Snails]

Soon's Gate is the only one tested by Xykon/Redcloak that was not defeated by them. It happens to have been defeated by a flaw within the defenses itself, coupled with a very bad run of luck.

Whether that makes the defenses better or worse can be argued either way.

At this point we can make such a claim about Girard's Gate, too. The blood tie is, in fact, a flaw because it creates a connection by which every team member unprotected by Mind Blank could be detected by means of divination. That the whole clan got squashed by a single Epic spell out of the clear blue is not really something Girard could have anticipated -- similar powered magic could probably defeat any of the Gates. However the exploited flaw is still a flaw.

[MReav]

HSome have suggested that Soon made an error in allowing Shojo to ever rise to command the Sapphire Guard. I am not sure he can be held responsible for rewriting the inheritance rules of his very lawful society..

Plus, Soon was dead for several decades by the time Shojo took power.

[Winter]

Shojo turned a very instable aristocratic system into a very stable system. You have to give him a lot of credit for that.

Now, the question is where that system of intrigue and backstabbing orginiated from and that might have very well something to do with how a younger Shojo (chaotic!) ruled for a few decades.
We can assume that Azure City as it was left from Soon was pretty stable but I very strongly doubt the City (and as such the protection) would have survived another decade after Shojo's death without some coups where one or the other noble house ascends the throne with poison and violence.
What that means for the protection of the gate might be a very tricky question.

In general, I'd (now) say the system Shojo created was far from as stable as it should have been given how stable it should be for a reliable protection of the gem.

[FujinAkari]

We can assume that Azure City as it was left from Soon was pretty stable

Soon never ruled Azure City, so this is not a valid assumption. Soon was just the commander of the Sapphire Guard.

[Winter]

Soon never ruled Azure City, so this is not a valid assumption. Soon was just the commander of the Sapphire Guard.

Whatever. It makes no difference. It is very probable that Soon was content whatever he left would be able to protect the gate or he'd changed the setup.
We also do not know if he was Commander of the Sapphire Guard and City Commander (as Shojo apparently was) or only commander of the guard. Actually, he must have had a very important position in the city, given that the Guard (and their influence) is some sort of big secret. Soon must have held a very, very powerful position, no matter if you call it "Commander of the City" or anyhow else.

I can call myself Head of the Secret Order but I still have no political influence. Even if I have lots of members in that Order, unless me or one of them actually gets in positions of real, actual visible political power, there is no influence. Soon apparently did have a lot of that to shape the ruling system of a large city state to his liking (and to his satisfaction in regard to protecting the gate).

The Azure City we did see in the comic was an Accident To And Misuse Of The Gate That Was Waiting to Happen. And I suspect that Shojo is partly to blame for the state we saw. Chaos breeds chaos. That the city still accepted him when he was obviously mental (to everyone else) is a strong sign the situation before Shojo's (pretended) had grown into something pretty stable that was widely accepted (so accepted that you can dispose of your liege, but you cannot openly defy him, even if he is very obviously senile).

Everything I see in the comic underlines the impression that whatever Soon left was not as instable (a swamp of murder and intrigue) as what we saw or the system that we saw would never have existed as long as we saw it.

[Ninja Dragon]

Why do you think that they could have defeated non-lich Xykon?

Both Dorukan and Ghost-Soon were able to fight lich-Xykon with a reasonable chance of winning. If you consider that non-lich Xykon is much weaker, he wouldn't have been able to defeat those guys.

[ferrodoxin]

Girard was probably already dead when Orrin met Penelope, and all divinations revealed only a name, which is not so much since other members also use aliases. Even after that it was extremely hard to find them, and that was only by elimination and it took a powerful and dedicated wizard (Zz'dtri) with connection to the family (Penelope) several months. It was sheer luck that Nale's stepmother happened to be a victim of the Draketooths.

I know "The gate can be found by the villain" is demanded by the rule of the plot. So I'm not arguing with the writing here or anything....

All I'm saying is giving people all over the country incentive to search you; for the crimes of stealing and kidnapping their children is not wise if you want to hide...

My point, a pretty ordinary diviner can extract the "Draketooth" name. Since it is a common feature shared by all family members, someone who KNOWS that name is related to the gates can investigate those kidnappings.

The only danger to the gates are people who are pretty high level (probably access to divination magic) and people who know about it in the first place. After those prerequisites are met, it only needs a group of investigators to happen by one of the numerous people shown here who could have just hired a diviner to find the kidnapper of their child....
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html
Obviously before familicide :)

Girard should have researched a spell that hides one's true identity from all forms of divination and taught it to his succesors.

[rockdeworld]

Xykon/Redcloak got the coordinates from Serini's diary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html)
Ah yes, that's a hole in their defense then for sure.

Soon was not defeated by Xykon + Redcloak
Oh yeah, my mistake. IMO, almost defeated.

I just re-read the OOTScribble and realized why the defenses weren't superb... They were only secondary to the to the concern of actually sealing the gates so the snarl wouldn't escape. Plus add in the death of Kraagor, and you have a pretty broken-down adventuring party, so they were presumably not at their best when they designed the defenses.

That's probably all been said before, so excuse me if it's old news. I just think it explains why there are glaring errors like Girard's coordinates in Serini's diary and Soon's gate defense being more powerful than a bunch of paladins, but less than an epic wizard.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I think the moral of the story that we're supposed to take away from the gates is the importance of teamwork. They should never have split up the band and they're all paying for it now.

[FujinAkari]

We also do not know if he was Commander of the Sapphire Guard and City Commander (as Shojo apparently was) or only commander of the guard.

We know that he was not Commander of the City. That title belonged to Shojo's father / grandfather and is hereditary. While Soon was an epic level paladin and an influential member of the Azure City Elite, there are some things which he simply could not change, one of them being the progression of leaders which Azure City would have.

This is not to say that Soon necessarily wanted to change it, just that the political structure of Azure City cannot be claimed to have been Soon's intent, as it predated him.

[Peelee]

I agree that is probably what we are supposed to believe.

But this only works because his opponents fought so amazingly poorly, both in life and in death. There are lots of simple tactics that might defeat a solo spellcaster, even a solo spellcaster buffed to the gills, even an Epic level solo caster buffed to the gills with an added template.

As for his DR, a simple gauntlet can have Magic Weapon or Bless Weapon cast on it, and carrying a stupid mace or club does not require much foresight. Are we really to believe that all those paladins might not consider that a bony-looking lich could have something in common with a bog standard bony-looking skeleton? It is not as if the Sapphire Guard was not on notice that a lich might come knocking.

Once the lich DR is bypassed, Xykon would still (presumably) have Stone Skin. But Stone Skin only last for 150 hit points. It is not reasonable to guess that Xykon has more than 200 hit points. 350 hit points just does not last long, even if you are AC 35.

Furthermore, unless Xykon has some kind of amazing Complete Immunity to Positive Energy, paladins can just touch attack with Lay on Hands and turn Xykon into a pile of dust in about 2 seconds.

(Note: Nothing I am saying here should be interpreted as a criticism of the Giant's excellent writing -- I do not expect him to adhere to the details of the rules. But as this thread in within the realm of speculation, I think it is fair to bring the actual rules as they were usually play at a gaming table into the discussion.)

I actually think a lot of what you said is making my point for me. Which also makes me think I should specify my point. I was specifically arguing against a post made by SoC175, in which he stated


Lirian's gate was the only one affected by Xykon being a lich, for the other gates it would have made no difference if Xykon would have been a human mage of the same level instead of a lich

None of the lich tratis made any differences in the fights with Soon and Durokan.

Lirian was the only one who lost her fighter specifically due to the lich traits. In all other fights they might just as well have not been there

As you said, 250 hit points do not last long. They do, however, last much longer than 100 hp, which is what a very epic-level human sorcerer would be very generously expected to have (quick and dirty calculation at hitting max HP at every level for a level 25 sorcerer, and ignoring CON bonuses). The change to d12s pumped hum up quite a bit, the 5 natural armor bonus made him harder to hit. Had he not had the greatly expanded hit die and the boost to his AC (let's ignore the DR for the sake of argument), his body would have been destroyed much sooner by Soon and his ghost army, and the phylactery would be in their hands (likely to also be destroyed).

And as such, his lich traits very specifically helped him survive the battle for Soon's Gate.

[FujinAkari]

As you said, 250 hit points do not last long. They do, however, last much longer than 100 hp, which is what a very epic-level human sorcerer would be very generously expected to have (quick and dirty calculation at hitting max HP at every level for a level 25 sorcerer, and ignoring CON bonuses).

I don't think it can be reasonably argued that the change to lich was irrelevant. Assuming that Xykon is level 30 (he is minimally assumed to be 29) and assuming he has the Unholy Toughness feat or whatever its called, then Xykon went from 30d4+30 (average 105) to 30d12+180 (average 375)

And that is assuming a woefully low 22 buffed charisma, I'd assume him much higher, but I can't prove it :P

[Peelee]

I don't think it can be reasonably argued that the change to lich was irrelevant.

I fully agree. This is the assertion I am trying to make.


Assuming that Xykon is level 30 (he is minimally assumed to be 29) and assuming he has the Unholy Toughness feat or whatever its called, then Xykon went from 30d4+30 (average 105) to 30d12+180 (average 375)

And that is assuming a woefully low 22 buffed charisma, I'd assume him much higher, but I can't prove it :P

And a thank you for providing much better numbers than my lazy ass came up with!

[Winter]

This is not to say that Soon necessarily wanted to change it, just that the political structure of Azure City cannot be claimed to have been Soon's intent, as it predated him.

I don't know, it seems wrong. Soon must have had a lot of influence and certainty that "things would develop well". He must have had trust enough the Commanders of the City would act in the best interest of the Sapphire Guard, no matter who they were.
For example, if he had even the slightest suspicion things might be wrong, he'd have separated the center of the Saphire Guard, the Throne Room, from the Center of the City (the Throne Room). He'd have the Commander of the Sapphire Guard next to the gem while the Commander of the City gets another (more fancy) room somewhere else.

That he did not do that, which should have been within his power if he had any (and he must have had more influence than "just a bit") to establish the Sapphire Guard in the way he did, indicates to me the situation was different than what we saw.
The alternative would be Soon simply did not see the City for the swamp it was even back then, but the scope we saw in the comic makes it hard to believe that.

So I interpret what we saw as the result of a relatively instable rule in Azure City. It seemed all fine and well on the surface, but it wasn't. Which is a bad thing for the long-term prognoses for the protection of the gate.

[Kish]

I don't think it can be reasonably argued that the change to lich was irrelevant. Assuming that Xykon is level 30 (he is minimally assumed to be 29) and assuming he has the Unholy Toughness feat or whatever its called, then Xykon went from 30d4+30 (average 105) to 30d12+180 (average 375)

And that is assuming a woefully low 22 buffed charisma, I'd assume him much higher, but I can't prove it :P
There's a non-third-party, non-Pathfinder feat that lets undead add their Charisma bonus to their hit points?

*googles*
No. There is not. Unholy Toughness is an extraordinary ability of certain undead, liches not among them. It is not a feat.

[Mike Havran]

I know "The gate can be found by the villain" is demanded by the rule of the plot. So I'm not arguing with the writing here or anything....

All I'm saying is giving people all over the country incentive to search you; for the crimes of stealing and kidnapping their children is not wise if you want to hide...

...

Girard should have researched a spell that hides one's true identity from all forms of divination and taught it to his succesors.

I agree. And he should also give Serini false coordinates. But then the plot couldn't continue... I was at loss which gate was best protected, but now I believe it was the Girard's gate. The "mistakes" that led to discovery of his pyramid were out-of-character for a selfish guy who really cares about his safety - they were there because the plot demanded it. The failures of the other three defenders can be explained in-universe, Girard's mistakes can't.

[Snails]

I just re-read the OOTScribble and realized why the defenses weren't superb... They were only secondary to the to the concern of actually sealing the gates so the snarl wouldn't escape. Plus add in the death of Kraagor, and you have a pretty broken-down adventuring party, so they were presumably not at their best when they designed the defenses.

That is a good point. To the best of our knowledge, controlling a Gate as a means to power was a purely theoretical threat until a god created a specialized artifact that divulged exact knowledge on how to go about it.

If not for the existence of the Red Cloak, Roy is pursuing a fairly straightforward vengeance quest, with no particular greater import to the world. In fact, the Sapphire Guard never bother to find Redcloak's village.

[Snails]

As you said, 250 hit points do not last long. They do, however, last much longer than 100 hp, which is what a very epic-level human sorcerer would be very generously expected to have (quick and dirty calculation at hitting max HP at every level for a level 25 sorcerer, and ignoring CON bonuses). The change to d12s pumped hum up quite a bit, the 5 natural armor bonus made him harder to hit. Had he not had the greatly expanded hit die and the boost to his AC (let's ignore the DR for the sake of argument), his body would have been destroyed much sooner by Soon and his ghost army, and the phylactery would be in their hands (likely to also be destroyed).

Not quite true. 350 hit points is 200 hit for a 30th level lich, plus 150 for a high level Stone Skin spell. (My point there was that 350 hit points just does not last long against very large middling level groups, but we do not need to revisit that point.)

d12 is LOWER than d4 + Con modifier once you start climbing into high levels. The break even point is Con 18. That sounds high until you realize that there are ways of boosting Con that are within easy reach of budgets of high level spellcasters. Pretty much every 20th character can be expected to be Con 20, and it is quite possible to be significantly higher.

The bottom line is that a 30th level lich might have 200 hit points, but a 30th sorceror is likely to have >300 hit points as the starting point.

[Winter]

I don't think it can be reasonably argued that the change to lich was irrelevant. Assuming that Xykon is level 30 (he is minimally assumed to be 29) and assuming he has the Unholy Toughness feat or whatever its called, then Xykon went from 30d4+30 (average 105) to 30d12+180 (average 375)

First, that is not RAW. Second, given how little optimised the chars in OotS-verse are, I find it a stretch that Xykon has "just the Feat he needs to be above everything the rules say".
Third, if you optimise this way for the Lich, you also have to at least somewhat optimise for the "moral". It's not 30d4 + 30 (where does the 30 come from anyway?)

It is 30d4 + CON + CONITEM. Let's assume any respectable war-caster who dumdstatted his mentals has at least Con 14 and we throw like at least +8 item on it (epic and stuff) we're seeing like +6 HPs per level, which brings us around 250 HPs. Without any optimising for a mortal sorcerer and without any other fancy PrC or template that boots the "moral sorcerer" to Mega-Villain.

Btw, when you can pull some cheat-feat from thin air (homebrew, some third party book some hack wrote, etc) that lets undead add Cha to HPs, I totally fail why we should not pull some other cheat-feat from thin air that lets other characters do that (or something worse) as well.

But that all does not matter at all as characters are Driven by Plot in this narrative anyway. Vaarsuvius for example had way more HPs in the Xykon fight than should be possible (unless he has a cheat-feat that lets him add his Int to HPs).

[Peelee]

Not quite true. 350 hit points is 200 hit for a 30th level lich, plus 150 for a high level Stone Skin spell. (My point there was that 350 hit points just does not last long against very large middling level groups, but we do not need to revisit that point.)

d12 is LOWER than d4 + Con modifier once you start climbing into high levels. The break even point is Con 18. That sounds high until you realize that there are ways of boosting Con that are within easy reach of budgets of high level spellcasters. Pretty much every 20th character can be expected to be Con 20, and it is quite possible to be significantly higher.

The bottom line is that a 30th level lich might have 200 hit points, but a 30th sorceror is likely to have >300 hit points as the starting point.


It is 30d4 + CON + CONITEM. Let's assume any respectable war-caster who dumdstatted his mentals has at least Con 14 and we throw like at least +8 item on it (epic and stuff) we're seeing like +6 HPs per level, which brings us around 250 HPs. Without any optimising for a mortal sorcerer and without any other fancy PrC or template that boots the "moral sorcerer" to Mega-Villain.

I was under the impression that only permanent boosts to Con affected how much more HP you get at level up, and that it is not retroactive. Have I been going about this wrong?

[Winter]

I was under the impression that only permanent boosts to Con affected how much more HP you get at level up, and that it is not retroactive. Have I been going about this wrong?

Con bonus is retroactive. d20 says:

If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

So if you don a Con-item, you instantly get the 2 HPs per level (for con +4) and if you remove it, you lose them again. A smart DM will disallow "cheated healing" by repeatedly removing and re-rewearing such an item.

(Note: For Int and skillpoints it does not work like this; for int you only use the current stat on levelup (without any items, afaik) and skillpoints are not re-calculated for existing levels when you gain or lose int lateron).

[Peelee]

Con bonus is retroactive. d20 says:


So if you don a Con-item, you instantly get the 2 HPs per level (for con +4) and if you remove it, you lose them again. A smart DM will disallow "cheated healing" by repeatedly removing and re-rewearing such an item.

(Note: For Int and skillpoints it does not work like this; for int you only use the current stat on levelup (without any items, afaik) and skillpoints are not re-calculated for existing levels when you gain or lose int lateron).

Gotcha. Apparently I just thought Con worked just like Int, since they both get certain alterations on levelup. Thanks.

[runeghost]

It wouldn't suprise me at all if he created a decoy gate, but I doubt he conned his own family. Girard is a lot like Ian Starshine in this regard. Blood is the one and only thing he truly trusts. And paranoid as he is, even he would acknowledge that the gate needs something sentient to guard it so as to adjust to the times.

I'm still putting my money on some sort of epic illusion of Girard himself, sort of a mix of epic-level Projected Image and Shadow Conjuration.

[Winter]

As reply to the quote in last post... Girard would very well con his own family. Remember that Ian's trust to Haley also has limits and in the very end, he only trusts himself and all that talk about "trusting the family" is hollow.

Girard has shown paranoia to a level that I would not assume he'd trust his family (for several generations once he is dead).

[Snails]

So if you don a Con-item, you instantly get the 2 HPs per level (for con +4) and if you remove it, you lose them again. A smart DM will disallow "cheated healing" by repeatedly removing and re-rewearing such an item.

This scenario is not actually ambiguous under the rules. If your Con bonus goes down you outright lose hit points immediately. If you Con bonus goes up you immediately gain hit points. There can be no net gain because these changes are cumulative.

In fact, with bad luck, it is possible for a wizard or sorceror or rogue to instantly die from some kinds of poison while still a "full hit points" due to a Con modifier suddenly going to -3 or -4.

[RedWarrior0]

Nope, because your Con modifier can't make you lose HP per hit die.

Also,Xykon pre-lichdom was Venerable. This math is based on SoD. Venerable is 70 years for humans.

103 years before the strip started, he was a kid. Lirian's gate events started 27 years ago. That puts him at 76 minimum, eating a -6 Age penalty to Con. So say he starts with 16 Con, which is a generous estimate. That +8 Con item puts him at a Con of 18, the break-even point between d4+Con and d12. Maybe he has a +10 item, and thus has an average of +1 HP more before undead-ness.

You know what would've been the best defense? An army of ghost-paladins backed up by a family of illusion-based casters, protected by the most powerful abjurations there are, such as Cloister, and of course, Lirian's Virus of Spellcasting-Destroying Hax. Oh, and a whole bunch of monsters.

In other words, whoever said that it's a lesson in why teamwork is good was perfectly right.

[Winter]

In other words, whoever said that it's a lesson in why teamwork is good was perfectly right.

It's how RPGs work, you have a team of diverse characters that together can overcome all kinds of obstacles. It's why Team Evil is as effective as it is and why The Order works - they excel when united and sucker around when divided.
It it is also why The Scribblers failed in the end. "Divided we fall" is exactly what they did.

[denthor]

We quest in the deep dark Dungeon of Dorukan who could have defeated the lich.

In the Start of Darkness:

Dorukan and the big Xykon rumbled

Dorukan Prismatic Spray.

Xykon oh Cr*p

nothing happens Xykon I guess there is something to this black and white art work has it advantages.


Dorukan should have won except for Rich Fiat.


So that one was well defended. Time was the only enemy stalking a human.

[Snails]

Nope, because your Con modifier can't make you lose HP per hit die.

I was wrong here, but this is not quite correct either. A character always gets a minimum of 1 hit point per die, regardless of the Con mod. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#constitutionCon) But, yes, the mod can whittle down the result of the die roll.

[RedWarrior0]

I was wrong here, but this is not quite correct either. A character always gets a minimum of 1 hit point per die, regardless of the Con mod. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#constitutionCon) But, yes, the mod can whittle down the result of the die roll.

I suppose I misspoke (mistyped? whatever). I meant that despite your Con mod, you can't get negative HP per hit die. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Snails]

Ah, yes. Thank you for the correction, BTW.

[Snails]

As for the original question, obviously Kraagor's Gate is the best protected. Divulging the coordinates of Girard's Gate in her diary sealed in the deal on that one! :smalltongue:

[Winter]

Dorukan should have won except for Rich Fiat.

I have no idea what sort of Prismatic Spray Spell you are using, but the one I found in my rules is no "Kill The Lich @100%" spell. You might want to read what it actually does. As it does not do what you seem to think it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSpray.htm).
It surely has no "Kill Undead" component and two of the other options have a will-save which Xykon is relatively likely to make, furthermore two other of the 7 possible outcomes even do nothing at all to an undead and one effect is relatively easy to revert for a (near)epic caster - so using this spell on a Lich-caster was actually a pretty bad choice.

[bguy]

It surely has no "Kill Undead" component and two of the other options have a will-save which Xykon is relatively likely to make, furthermore two other of the 7 possible outcomes even do nothing at all to an undead and one effect is relatively easy to revert for a (near)epic caster - so using this spell on a Lich-caster was actually a pretty bad choice.

Very true, but isn't that the real problem.

Start of Darkness spoiler

Both Lirian and Dorukan made horrible spell choices in their final battles against Xykon. Lirian with casting Poison on a skeletal creature. (How did she even think that was suppose to work?) And Dorukan with the aforementioned Prismatic Spray, as well as totally wasting a Gate spell. (If he had gated in a Solar instead of a bunch of low HD celestials, he would have won the battle.)

Dourkan also fought the battle in an extrmely lackadasical manner. He disengaged from the fight entirely while Xykon fought the angels, and then at the very end he let Xykon cast 3 Energy Drains in a row on him without casting any of his own spells in return. Anyone can win a fight when their opponent isn't even bothering to fight back.

Thus in both cases but especially the Dorukan fight, it feels like Xykon only won because the plot said he had to win.

[FujinAkari]

Very true, but isn't that the real problem.

Start of Darkness spoiler

Both Lirian and Dorukan made horrible spell choices in their final battles against Xykon. Lirian with casting Poison on a skeletal creature. (How did she even think that was suppose to work?) And Dorukan with the aforementioned Prismatic Spray, as well as totally wasting a Gate spell. (If he had gated in a Solar instead of a bunch of low HD celestials, he would have won the battle.)

Dourkan also fought the battle in an extrmely lackadasical manner. He disengaged from the fight entirely while Xykon fought the angels, and then at the very end he let Xykon cast 3 Energy Drains in a row on him without casting any of his own spells in return. Anyone can win a fight when their opponent isn't even bothering to fight back.

Thus in both cases but especially the Dorukan fight, it feels like Xykon only won because the plot said he had to win.

Ummm...

Lirean was using poison because she had no idea what the hell a Lich was, like pretty much EVERYONE ELSE in the OOTS world. Heck, Roy was -explicitly hunting- a Lich and still didn't know about its phylactery.

She used her normal battle technique because she had no basis to change it. Don't blame her because she wasn't metagaming.

As for Durokan: That's dramatic time. Durokan -was- fighting for all he was worth, but towards the end of the fight Rich didn't show that because it would have interfered with the dialogue and the pacing of the scene. That Durokan is hitting but not finishing off Xykon, or missing, or Xykon is making his save is pretty well irrelevant. The point of the scene is what Rich was focussing on.

[MReav]

Ummm...

Lirean was using poison because she had no idea what the hell a Lich was, like pretty much EVERYONE ELSE in the OOTS world. Heck, Roy was -explicitly hunting- a Lich and still didn't know about its phylactery.

She used her normal battle technique because she had no basis to change it. Don't blame her because she wasn't metagaming..

Even if Liches are a relative unknown, undead aren't. High level characters who have gone on epic quests with should know that using Constitution attacks on one of those is a waste of a turn.

[FujinAkari]

Even if Liches are a relative unknown, undead aren't. High level characters who have gone on epic quests with should know that using Constitution attacks on one of those is a waste of a turn.

Only with a DC 15 Knowledge(Religion) check, which we have no indication Lirean had -any- ranks in.

Additionally, think of it from her perspective...

A human sorcerer is sealed in an underground tomb, then months later he comes crashing out and now looks like a skelleton. What is more likely?

A) He became some sort of ultra-powerful undead sorcerer THING that you've never so much as heard of.
B) He is using some sort of illusion, possibly even a shadow-glamour which allowed him to overcome the previous poison, thus prompting a second dose.

[Koo Rehtorb]

A) He became some sort of ultra-powerful undead sorcerer THING that you've never so much as heard of.
B) He is using some sort of illusion, possibly even a shadow-glamour which allowed him to overcome the previous poison, thus prompting a second dose.

Well considering that he specifically told her that he became undead before she cast Poison...

[FujinAkari]

Well considering that he specifically told her that he became undead before she cast Poison...

Oh, of course. I had forgotten that everyone who uses deceptive illusions is already so unerringly -honest- about it... :P

[Koo Rehtorb]

Oh, of course. I had forgotten that everyone who uses deceptive illusions is already so unerringly -honest- about it... :P

Yes, granted, but I think in the context of the scene that thinking he actually was undead (at least temporarily) was a safer bet than not and that's at least a reason to try something else as your first pick.

There's also the fact that she's breaking out a 4th level spell as her first choice against an epic level sorcerer. There's really no way around it, Poison was a pretty awful pick.

[FujinAkari]

There's also the fact that she's breaking out a 4th level spell as her first choice against an epic level sorcerer. There's really no way around it, Poison was a pretty awful pick.

Very much disagree.

We're talking a DC 30 - 35 Fort Save or suffer up to 10 con damage, with another save after a minute?

Keep in mind mages usually have 12 Con if they're lucky. Although a wizard of Xykon's level likely has some magical augmentations that increase his effective Con, a single dispel magic wipes those out as well and leaves him with more digits than hit points.

[Koo Rehtorb]

We're talking a DC 30 - 35 Fort Save or suffer up to 10 con damage, with another save after a minute?

Keep in mind mages usually have 12 Con if they're lucky. Although a wizard of Xykon's level likely has some magical augmentations that increase his effective Con, a single dispel magic wipes those out as well and leaves him with more digits than hit points.

Wait, DC 30-35?! Wouldn't that require her to have like uh... around 40+ wisdom. That seems a little excessive.

Anyway even if she was targeting fort save specifically with it you'd think she could just use a higher level fort save spell with better effects, like Finger of Death, even if she didn't buy that he was undead. It would take a pretty contrived set of circumstances to really make poison her number one best pick.

However I'm not bothered by it because the story is really about Xykon and Redcloak anyway and I see the fights as just being shorthand for "People fought, bad guys won." They don't have to be as well thought out as the ones in the main comic.

[FujinAkari]

Wait, DC 30-35?! Wouldn't that require her to have like uh... around 40+ wisdom. That seems a little excessive.

Read Poison, it has a DC of Wis Mod + 1/2 caster level.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Read Poison, it has a DC of Wis Mod + 1/2 caster level.

Ooh that's pretty cool really. All right.

Though I still say if it looks undead, says it's undead, and has properties of ignoring your specially crafted magical disease spell then the better call would be assuming that it actually is undead.

[FujinAkari]

Ooh that's pretty cool really. All right.

Though I still say if it looks undead, says it's undead, and has properties of ignoring your specially crafted magical disease spell then the better call would be assuming that it actually is undead.

Admittedly so. I don't claim Poison was a Good choice, I just say that it wasn't a terrible one.

She is picking this within a few seconds of Xykon emerging, expecting intense and deliberate consideration of all possible factors just isn't reasonable, so she went with her default "anti-mage" strategy without really thinking.

[ranagrande]

I have a question. What are these "gates" you're all talking about? :smallconfused:

[FujinAkari]

I have a question. What are these "gates" you're all talking about? :smallconfused:

That joke stopped being funny seven years ago :P

[Snails]

Only with a DC 15 Knowledge(Religion) check, which we have no indication Lirean had -any- ranks in.

"Only" is simply incorrect.

It is perfectly possible to have abundant knowledge without a knowledge skill. A PC does not need Knowledge (Local) to know that the sun rises in the east in the morning and sets in the west in the evening. A knight does not need Knowledge (Nature) to perform basic care of his horse.

What the ranks provide is personal knowledge on topics where personal background and personal experience cannot be expected to make the issue effectively common knowledge.

Any adventure who survives past single digit levels would likely have met undead a couple dozen times or more. There are certain properties that are common to all undead. No one is expecting Lirean to know the details of the Lich template. What is expected is to apply the knowledge highly common to 4th level adventurers.



Additionally, think of it from her perspective...

A human sorcerer is sealed in an underground tomb, then months later he comes crashing out and now looks like a skelleton. What is more likely?

A) He became some sort of ultra-powerful undead sorcerer THING that you've never so much as heard of.
B) He is using some sort of illusion, possibly even a shadow-glamour which allowed him to overcome the previous poison, thus prompting a second dose.

A) Then the sorceror is undead and, even if I do not understand the details, I should apply common knowledge about undead. Why guess otherwise?

B) Then I know that there is some kind of magic that is interfering with the effect of the poison and, even if I do not understand the details, I should not make guesses that my poison magic will overcome anti-poison magic I do not understand. Why guess otherwise?

Your arguments boil down to "I do not fully understand it, so I will ignore the obvious." Well, being an adventuring spellcaster is all about making reasonable guesses with incomplete information. Lirean had 20ish levels of adventuring and made a mistake that would cause most 8th level spellcasters to die of embarassment.

[Peelee]

"Only" is simply incorrect.

It is perfectly possible to have abundant knowledge without a knowledge skill. A PC does not need Knowledge (Local) to know that the sun rises in the east in the morning and sets in the west in the evening. A knight does not need Knowledge (Nature) to perform basic care of his horse.

What the ranks provide is personal knowledge on topics where personal background and personal experience cannot be expected to make the issue effectively common knowledge.

Any adventure who survives past single digit levels would likely have met undead a couple dozen times or more. There are certain properties that are common to all undead. No one is expecting Lirean to know the details of the Lich template. What is expected is to apply the knowledge highly common to 4th level adventurers.



A) Then the sorceror is undead and, even if I do not understand the details, I should apply common knowledge about undead. Why guess otherwise?

B) Then I know that there is some kind of magic that is interfering with the effect of the poison and, even if I do not understand the details, I should not make guesses that my poison magic will overcome anti-poison magic I do not understand. Why guess otherwise?

Your arguments boil down to "I do not fully understand it, so I will ignore the obvious." Well, being an adventuring spellcaster is all about making reasonable guesses with incomplete information. Lirean had 20ish levels of adventuring and made a mistake that would cause most 8th level spellcasters to die of embarassment.

I've been driving for about a decade now, and about all I know about my car is that it needs gas, oil changes, and tire rotations every so often. Anything else is a complete mystery to me. I know what a fan belt is, but I have no earthly clue what the crap it does. I know that the thing requires brake fluid, but don't know why. Just because you are familiar with something doesn't necessarily mean you have any idea how it functions. If she heavily researched undead and specifically looked into methods on fighting them, you may have a point, but saying "she's epic, surely she fought some every now and then" doesn't mean she knows even the general mechanism behind how they function.

[Xelbiuj]

She isn't just epic but she is also a druid. I can't imagine many druids that aren't sworn enemies of undead. They are literally as unnatural as it gets.

I'm sure she could figure out that anything without a metabolism wouldn't be effected by poison.

[CoffeeIncluded]

She isn't just epic but she is also a druid. I can't imagine many druids that aren't sworn enemies of undead. They are literally as unnatural as it gets.

I'm sure she could figure out that anything without a metabolism wouldn't be effected by poison.

Well, she had to lose because of plot. :smalltongue:

Seriously, my guess as to what happened was that Lirian was jumped, panicked, and reflexively threw out one of her go-to spells, and by the time she realized what was actually going on Xykon was on her. And she didn't prepare undead-fighting spells because she wasn't expecting an attack.

A similar thing probably happened with Dorukan. He got cocky and badly underestimated Xykon's strength, and I'm pretty sure what Xykon did and threatened to do with Lirian threw him more than he claimed. I would have liked to see the two of them do more damage to Xykon instead of making it a curb-stomp battle on his behalf though.

[Bulldog Psion]

Thus far, it looks like three of the gates were badly defended, and we have insufficient information about the other two. :smallsmile:

Still, Soon came the closest to beating the everlovin' heck out of Xykon and Redcloak -- he actually defeated them, and would have coup de graced them if it hadn't been for Miko's appallingly timed destruction of the gate. It's hard to argue with the objective fact that Dorukan and Lirian both fell pretty easily to Xykon, and Soon reduced him to prone helplessness. *shrug*

So, I'm going to have to say that Soon's gate was the best protected. Of course, the best protected out of three poorly protected gates isn't saying much, but it's relative in this case.

Short version: thus far, Soon's.

[Peelee]

Thus far, it looks like three of the gates were badly defended, and we have insufficient information about the other two. :smallsmile:

Still, Soon came the closest to beating the everlovin' heck out of Xykon and Redcloak -- he actually defeated them, and would have coup de graced them if it hadn't been for Miko's appallingly timed destruction of the gate. It's hard to argue with the objective fact that Dorukan and Lirian both fell pretty easily to Xykon, and Soon reduced him to prone helplessness. *shrug*

So, I'm going to have to say that Soon's gate was the best protected. Of course, the best protected out of three poorly protected gates isn't saying much, but it's relative in this case.

Short version: thus far, Soon's.

While I agree with pretty much all of your analysis, Lirian also defeated Xykon and Redcloak. She just lost in Round 2, many months (and buffs) later.

Though, as you said, in that round she went down pretty fast.

[Snails]

I've been driving for about a decade now, and about all I know about my car is that it needs gas, oil changes, and tire rotations every so often. Anything else is a complete mystery to me. I know what a fan belt is, but I have no earthly clue what the crap it does. I know that the thing requires brake fluid, but don't know why. Just because you are familiar with something doesn't necessarily mean you have any idea how it functions. If she heavily researched undead and specifically looked into methods on fighting them, you may have a point, but saying "she's epic, surely she fought some every now and then" doesn't mean she knows even the general mechanism behind how they function.

"Heavily researched" is just a straw man argument. In fact, it is provably wrong simply because every person with one single little rank of the right knowledge skill could give the right answer if given a little time to think (Take 20). A tiny bit of research during the course of her long life, asking an above average bookish 1st level druid or priest the right question, is all that was required. But that is not really my argument. It is your argument that such an effort would be too taxing to expect of Lirean .

My argument is that it becomes obvious to spellcasters that actually adventure that undead are peculiar. Their peculiarities become obvious because certain spells fail 100% of the time: cold, poison, enchantments. My argument is that most adventurers figure this all out during low levels through empirical efforts, if they so happen to lack the specific Knowledge skills.

[Peelee]

"Heavily researched" is just a straw man argument. In fact, it is provably wrong simply because every person with one single little rank of the right knowledge skill could give the right answer if given a little time to think (Take 20).

Except that Knowledge checks can't be retried, so taking 20 is not possible. So it is not provably wrong by that logic. That said, I'll not continue this argument (due to it not being your argument, as you said) and focus on what you are debating.


My argument is that it becomes obvious to spellcasters that actually adventure that undead are peculiar. Their peculiarities become obvious because certain spells fail 100% of the time: cold, poison, enchantments. My argument is that most adventurers figure this all out during low levels through empirical efforts, if they so happen to lack the specific Knowledge skills.

If they actually encounter undead, yes. That Lirian had no idea how to fight Xykon could suggest either that she made horrible decisions in the fight, or that she was unfamiliar with undead.

By that line of reasoning, you see it as more likely that Lirian was a blithering idiot (or made impressively tactically-poor choices) than that she was unfamiliar with undead (if I am wrong, please do correct me on this). I simply see the other possibility as far more likely.

[CoffeeIncluded]

By that line of reasoning, you see it as more likely that Lirian was a blithering idiot (or made impressively tactically-poor choices) than that she was unfamiliar with undead (if I am wrong, please do correct me on this). I simply see the other possibility as far more likely.

What about the possibility that she panicked and so reflexively threw out the first spell that came to mind?

[Peelee]

What about the possibility that she panicked and so reflexively threw out the first spell that came to mind?

Definitely plausible, especially since it was someone she thought de-magicked and imprisoned. I still think that she didn't understand how undead work is the most likely scenario, though, but with several plausible explanations we'll likely never get a consensus.

[Snails]

Good catch on the Knowledge retries, Peelee. You are correct there.



By that line of reasoning, you see it as more likely that Lirian was a blithering idiot (or made impressively tactically-poor choices) than that she was unfamiliar with undead (if I am wrong, please do correct me on this). I simply see the other possibility as far more likely.

Fairly stated.

IMHO the poison mistake would be "very surprising" for any seasoned adventurer the likes of which Lirian seems to be. Obviously I cannot prove Lirian should have known such things, so this boils down to personal interpretations and educated guesses.

[Scrynor]

Apologies if this already came up (I read the first 2 pages and the last 2) but I don't think people are giving enough credit to the fact that Durukon probably wasn't playing the same game as everyone else.

In my mind, he was clearly behaving like most wizards. He was studying the gates and leaving open the possibility of future "use for good" and/or "defeat of the Snarl". I mean, the guy was setting runes that could only be opened by "good" folk. I'm pretty sure he was confident his own epic butt was enough to defend the place and if he ever felt like hanging it up or was actually going to die of old age then he would have invested the last 100 years or so into his own more permanent defense.

Does that make his the weakest? Debatable. But I don't think it's fair not to acknowledge the point.

Dorukon (and maybe Girard) also had the best defenses against magical detection or invasion. It took the divine influence of an evil God and some halfling twit scribbling in a diary to put villains on his trail. I take SERIOUS points away from Soon for the whole "paladin kingdom with an agenda" thing. He had mooks running around genociding evil species. That + time almost makes his gate being compromised inevitable. All it takes is a pissed off evil race and the waxing and waning in the ongoing struggle between good and evil for that city to eventually fall into evil hands, the (admittedly really nice) trap to be set off, and everyone knows this place is really really important and we should invest in conqouring / figuring it out.

So currently, I'm voting:
1) Girard, for complete intentional obscurity and unknown levels of preparedness for an epic threat
2) Lirian, for a great epic defense in the virus and relative obscurity in just being a random druid grove
3) Soon, for near assured failure given large amounts of time irregardless of the awesomeness of the fallback plan and success against Xykon

*) Dorukon, unwilling to rate based on game differences, but probably vying for #1 based on obscurity and power (whenever he got around to implementing something permanent)

[FujinAkari]

I take SERIOUS points away from Soon for the whole "paladin kingdom with an agenda" thing. He had mooks running around genociding evil species.

No he didn't, he had mooks running around attacking the bearer of the crimson mantle since that represented a direct threat to the gates :P

I'm also not sure what the heck you even mean by "Durokan was playing a different game."

[hamishspence]

No he didn't, he had mooks running around attacking the bearer of the crimson mantle since that represented a direct threat to the gates :P


As well as everyone the bearer was with- even after the bearer was dead.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay, I just reread that section in SoD, and the spells we see Lirian cast are, in order: Summon Monster X, Poison, Wildshape (which I know isn't a spell) or something to turn herself into a dragon. Notable, Xykon tells her before casting poison that he's, "Undead-fabulous." So there goes my idea of panicking and reflexively throwing out the first spell that came to mind; I forgot exactly how the fight went. Maybe Lirian wasn't really listening to what Xykon said and was still operating on autopilot?

I guess the thing that bothered me the most about Lirian and Dorukan's fights against Xykon were how they couldn't seem to land a single hit on them. Obviously they couldn't win, but I still feel they should have been able to land one or two good blows on him?

[Kish]

No he didn't, he had mooks running around attacking the bearer of the crimson mantle since that represented a direct threat to the gates :P"

Azure City was a nation dedicated to all that was good and holy...but in many ways failed to live up to its ideals.

...

Most damning, though, is a decades long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods.
Cough cough.

[FujinAkari]

Cough cough.

Soon sent his men and women to wipe out all who would threaten the Azure City Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

Not really sure what your point is there Kishy.

"No, Soon only attacked those who were a threat to the gate."
"RICH AGREES WITH YOU!"


And?

[Scrynor]

The point is that he made himself and his location of the gate a target. Unless he actually succeeded in wiping out all evil (not realistic) history tells us that no kingdom stands forever. Engaging in such overt war hastens that demise. Long term it isn't near as sustainable as something super secret and safe. Once Soon dies the "secret" defense become much stronger but the "kingdom" defense becomes much weaker (especially considering shifting leadership). If the kingdom falls the "secret" defense will trigger and eventually evil will defeat it.

I'm not saying it's awful, just that the writing is on the wall. Soon's defense will fail given time.

[Kish]

Soon sent his men and women to wipe out all who would threaten the Azure City Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

Not really sure what your point is there Kishy.

"No, Soon only attacked those who were a threat to the gate."
"RICH AGREES WITH YOU!"


And?
...That your refusal to see that "a decades-long history of...exterminating entire villages" is not surgical strikes against verified threats to the Azure City Gate gradually goes from annoying to profoundly goofy.

Will you at least acknowledge that Rich calls the Sapphire Guard's holy, carefully-directed mass murders "damning," or is that also something you don't see?

[Winter]

... not to mention Rich acknowledged some of the Paladins involved in those "surgical, justified strikes" very probably lost their paladinhood over that (he just did not show it to avoid lessening Miko's fall).

Even the gods disagreed that it was "100% correct" what was done there.

As for how the Other Side Of The Story looks: I can greatly recommend reading the comic on goblinscomic.com as well. Just as OotS it takes a closer look at the "cleaning out evil humanoids" thing in RPGs.

[FujinAkari]

...That your refusal to see that "a decades-long history of...exterminating entire villages" is not surgical strikes against verified threats to the Azure City Gate gradually goes from annoying to profoundly goofy.

Will you at least acknowledge that Rich calls the Sapphire Guard's holy, carefully-directed mass murders "damning," or is that also something you don't see?

I'm pretty sure I never claimed otherwise. I also never used the term 'surgical strike'.

Are you sure you're arguing with the right person?

All I actually said was the statement
He had mooks running around genociding evil species. was wrong.

While they absolutely did wipe out entire villages, genocide implies a reason for their actions which Rich explicitly denies, in both provided quotes.

[Kish]

All I actually said was the statement was wrong.

What you said, was that they only attacked those who were a threat to the gate. Insupportable. They wiped out entire villages, children and all, for decades.

Did they try to actually make the goblin species extinct? Probably not, just because giving that order would likely have made Soon himself Fall immediately. On the other hand, they certainly had "a policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group," which fits one definition of genocide. So the reality exists somewhere in the excluded middle between "they were trying-to-make-extinct evil species" and "they only attacked those who were a threat to the gate." Where exactly? I don't know, but by Word of the Giant, somewhere damning.

[FujinAkari]

What you said, was that they only attacked those who were a threat to the gate. Insupportable.

Yeah... it isn't like the comic EXPLICITLY says that or anything... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

[Kish]

Sarcasm aside, you're absolutely right. It isn't like The Comic explicitly says that.

It is like Shojo, while posing as a paladin and reciting the lore of the Sapphire Guard--in crayon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081896&postcount=21)--said that the Sapphire Guard went on a crusade to "wipe out all who would threaten the Azure City gate." Without any indication, even a tiny hint, that that was all the Sapphire Guard ever did (...and lasted for decades...), even if you for some reason treated Shojo's assertions as having the power to overrule Rich's contradicting statements.

[CoffeeIncluded]

If the Sapphire Guard was only attacking those who a threat to the gate, then wouldn't they have stopped once they killed the cleric, or if they wanted to be safe, killed any goblin with levels in cleric? I think the damnation was from the "Exterminate the rest and let us be done here," bit, not the "Get the cleric," bit.

[FujinAkari]

Sarcasm aside, you're absolutely right. It isn't like The Comic explicitly says that.[

It is like Shojo, while posing as a paladin and reciting the lore of the Sapphire Guard--in crayon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081896&postcount=21)--said that the Sapphire Guard went on a crusade to "wipe out all who would threaten the Azure City gate." Without any indication, even a tiny hint, that that was all the Sapphire Guard ever did (...and lasted for decades...), even if you for some reason treated Shojo's assertions as having the power to overrule Rich's contradicting statements.

*facepalm*

First of all, -nothing- about Rich's statement is contradictory. As Coffee said, the damning part of the Sapphire Guard's actions is that they killed ALL the Goblins, not just the one actively threatening the Gate. The Sapphire Guard saw all the Goblins as evil and therefore slaughtered them, which is absolutely evil and immoral and not ok and the reason some of them fell.

However, you are positing that "Well, when Rich says they had a decades long history of wiping out entire villages, those are villages separate from the ones Redcloak is shown in or the ones Shojo discusses because... reasons!"

You are correct that Shojo doesn't ever indicate that all the Sapphire Guard ever did was wipe out direct threats to the gate but a lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. It is your job to prove that the Sapphire Guard were regularly going out and slaughtering entire villages for absolutely no reason other than their race.

Rich's statement does not prove, or even imply that. Rich's statement says that for decades, the Sapphire Guard went out and slaughtered entire villages at the behest of their Gods. We KNOW their gods sent them after the crimson mantle, and likely after any other group who had learned of the Gates. Thus, Rich's statement makes sense without some random and unsupported genocidal claim.

I'm also not sure what makes the crayon relevant... the section isn't from Start of Darkness and CERTAINLY is not being told by Redcloak, so who cares?

[Caex]

Looking at the evidence we have, from both the possibly unreliable Shojo in the crayon narration and the actually explicitly seen statements and intentions of the Sapphire Guard in SoD, the missions were explicitly directed at the threat to the gate, which we now know to be posed by the bearer of the crimson mantle. While we’re likely to all agree that their deliberate dispatching of all of the followers of the bearer--men, women, and children--was brutal, as far as we have seen it was exclusively in the context of wiping out the supporters for the threat to the gate. As we do see in SoD, the crimson mantle can be passed with little effort or fanfare from one bearer to the next, so leaving likely vengeful supporters around is even more dangerous than usual. We have no indication at any point (at least that memory and a cursory skimming of the key sections of the story provide to me, please correct me if you find any counter-examples) that these missions were directed at extermination of goblinkind or were even directed against the goblins particularly because they were goblins, and thus to call it “genocide” is to stretch the meaning of the term well beyond its proper utility.

That is not to say that the brutality was moral, but it was something which could seem tactically justified to someone with no particular enmity towards goblins per say. As far as I’m concerned, it was tactically very sloppy to not focus on taking the mantle from them, but to pin that on Soon as some great weakness in his defense of the gate is reaching.

[Snails]

If the Sapphire Guard had actually successfully captured the Crimson Mantle, it is highly likely the slaughter would have stopped. So this was not some mindless genocide, but an "ends justify the means" strategy that (probably) most of us tend to believe crossed the line at times.

As for the argument that the Sapphire Guard's attacks made the Gate defense weak, I think that can be more or less disproven. The main reason that any of the Gates have fallen is because of an epic powered lich. That lich chose two other secret or semi-secret Gates to pick on before going for Azure City.

If the Sapphire Guard had only tried to keep a low profile, then Azure City would be at worst the third most poorly protected Gate. If such was an error on Soon's part, in the larger context, it was a small mistake compared to how others were defending their Gates.

[CoffeeIncluded]

You have to be a cleric to take the mantle, and I'm not sure that the Sapphire Guard knew that the threat was in the mantle itself. As I said, if they were going exclusively for "eliminate the threats," then they should have just killed any goblins who could cast arcane or divine spells. If they didn't know that they had to be spellcasters then I can see the Sapphire Guard killing any goblin with class levels, but they didn't stop there. Yes, killing all the goblins, including Redcloak's little sister might have been an attempt to be genre-savvy and prevent retaliation (though we all know how well that turned out), but it still fits the definition of genocide. There's also the fact that they didn't even try diplomacy first? We don't know who struck first against the Dark One when he was killed.

[hamishspence]

You have to be a cleric to take the mantle, and I'm not sure that the Sapphire Guard knew that the threat was in the mantle itself.
They didn't:

It is not generally known by non-goblins that the physical cloak itself is the source of the power. To the paladins, the title "Bearer of the Crimson Mantle" just means that the guy who wants to destroy reality gets to wear a red cloak. Since they don't know that the cloak is what they are actually seeking, they have never actually "gotten hold of it" at all, not in any meaningful way. It has always been passed down just before being captured. It's only existed for about 60 years, remember, and Redcloak has owned it for half of that. So it's only been passed along 3-4 times. In all of those cases, either the goblins managed to swipe it off of the corpse of the old Bearer before the paladins noticed, or they stole it back before the paladins could identify its significance.

[Scrynor]

So I feel a little responsible for this argument as it was my one sentence that apparently started it.

So... to refocus on the point of the thread. My reasoning for ranking Soon as the worst defended Gate is that making your gate part of the throne in a Kingdom that is actively making enemies of evil (regardless of whether or not strict genocide was involved) with a super surprise defense that triggers when evil infiltrates the throne room is a system that sets up its own failure in the long term. The Kingdom will weaken, fade away, or momentarily lose. The secret defense will be triggered. The importance will be obvious. The secret defense, while strong, is not impregnable and indeed its greatest strength is surprise which only works once.

Overall, if you consider possibilities outside of just what happened in the actual story then I find that the odds of Soon's gate being assaulted and overcome are greater (borderline assured) than that of Girard and Dorukon's gates which were baked in magical obscurity and purposefully had no attention drawn to their location (+other defenses).

@Snails - Just because Soon's gate was assaulted 3rd doesn't prove anything. You have to consider all possibility not just what happened. You can't evaluate the merit of actions in the past based on knowledge of the future. What is more likely? That a newborn evil God with a grudge discovers a threat to reality and tries to twist it to better his chosen people, or a mortal Kingdom wanes in power over time and ceases to exist?

[CoffeeIncluded]

So I feel a little responsible for this argument as it was my one sentence that apparently started it.

So... to refocus on the point of the thread. My reasoning for ranking Soon as the worst defended Gate is that making your gate part of the throne in a Kingdom that is actively making enemies of evil (regardless of whether or not strict genocide was involved) with a super surprise defense that triggers when evil infiltrates the throne room is a system that sets up its own failure in the long term. The Kingdom will weaken, fade away, or momentarily lose. The secret defense will be triggered. The importance will be obvious. The secret defense, while strong, is not impregnable and indeed its greatest strength is surprise which only works once.

Overall, if you consider possibilities outside of just what happened in the actual story then I find that the odds of Soon's gate being assaulted and overcome are greater (borderline assured) than that of Girard and Dorukon's gates which were baked in magical obscurity and purposefully had no attention drawn to their location (+other defenses).

I think that, if Soon was banking on contingencies, he wanted to hide the gate in plain sight. Azure City was already there; Soon just built the castle around the gate, and so used himself and his descendants as a decoy from the true threat. Remember, Hinjo said Soon built the castle around the gate so nobody would question why it was so heavily defended. I bet he played it off as trying to consolidate the rule of his city-state, and that might have been a minor motivation as well. Azure City's a port city, a central hub of trade that has some great fishing as well; it's valuable land. The city would probably have a lot of allies that would come to its defense, and he assumed that there would be a warning of an attack. And if, if someone conquered Azure City, then they'd likely be doing it to gain control of that prime territory. After all, he tried to eliminate all knowledge of the gates from the world, right? And then the conquerors would sit on the vacated throne of Azure City, and so unwittingly become the new protectors of the gate.

[Scrynor]

If what you describe is the way it works then I would need to re-evaluate my rankings. I was assuming that the ghost trap triggered as soon as sufficient evil entered that throne room thus putting evil on the trail of the gate. If ghost-Soon is sitting there in the afterlife with his ghost-paladin horde watching from above and making the judgement call to only strike when the gate is in danger then that changes everything. Then I totally buy hiding in plain sight and I wouldn't deduct serious points.

If ghost-horde rambos out the second somebody like Tarquin sits down in that throne automatically then I take away serious points. 'Cause like you said, without the horde to tip the hand T would defend that throne just as good as many, better than most.

[CoffeeIncluded]

If what you describe is the way it works than I would need to re-evaluate my rankings. I was assuming that the ghost trap triggered as soon as sufficient evil entered that throne room thus putting evil on the trail of the gate. If ghost-Soon is sitting there in the afterlife with his ghost-paladin horde watching from above and making the judgement call to only strike when the gate is in danger then that changes everything. Then I totally buy hiding in plain sight and I wouldn't deduct serious points.

If ghost-horde rambos out the second somebody like Tarquin sits down in that throne automatically then I take away serious points. 'Cause like you said, without the horde to tip the hand T would defend that throne just as good as many, better than most.

I figure that's what happened. Or maybe one of them pushed an emergency "Gate is under attack, prepare the ghost-martyrs" button before sealing the throne room. But Soon explicitly said, "Our oaths to defend the Gate was all that bound our souls to this world. With the Gate shattered, my spirit can no longer influence this world." He was there, watching the whole time and giving an order to strike.

[Scrynor]

I'm not sure it is that clear cut. I interpreted that line exactly the opposite way. I was imagining it like a great sacrifice where their souls couldn't pass on and they were locked into the mortal world waiting for the trap to be triggered. I didn't imagine them waiting and watching and evaluating. I imagined it like a sepia serpent sigil where you have this stasis going on with a very specific trigger for release. If Soon was waiting and watching why wouldn't he continue ruling the Paladins from the spirit world? I imagined them locked away. But I admit there is nothing firm to support that belief.

I'm also a bit hazy on whether or not Soon actually would have been able to handle "hiding in plain sight". I feel like he would have attacked a guy like T even if T didn't know about the gate and tip his hand. It feels like it fits with the theme of the gates falling due to the flaws of their makers (Lirian too nice, Dorukon too confident, Soon too black and white). I don't think he could handle waiting in the shadows and letting someone evil defend the gate. Again though, no firm evidence.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I'm not sure it is that clear cut. I interpreted that line exactly the opposite way. I was imagining it like a great sacrifice where their souls couldn't pass on and they were locked into the mortal world waiting for the trap to be triggered. I didn't imagine them waiting and watching and evaluating. I imagined it like a sepia serpent sigil where you have this stasis going on with a very specific trigger for release. If Soon was waiting and watching why wouldn't he continue ruling the Paladins from the spirit world? I imagined them locked away. But I admit there is nothing firm to support that belief.

I'm also a bit hazy on whether or not Soon actually would have been able to handle "hiding in plain sight". I feel like he would have attacked a guy like T even if T didn't know about the gate and tip his hand. It feels like it fits with the theme of the gates falling due to the flaws of their makers (Lirian too nice, Dorukon too confident, Soon too black and white). I don't think he could handle waiting in the shadows and letting someone evil defend the gate. Again though, no firm evidence.

He might have charged in against Tarquin. But if he knew more about what Tarquin was like, and that he wasn't interested in the gates at all, he could have been convinced otherwise.

[ReaderAt2046]

You know what would've been the best defense? An army of ghost-paladins backed up by a family of illusion-based casters, protected by the most powerful abjurations there are, such as Cloister, and of course, Lirian's Virus of Spellcasting-Destroying Hax. Oh, and a whole bunch of monsters.

In other words, whoever said that it's a lesson in why teamwork is good was perfectly right.

In most cases, any two Scribblers could have exponentially increased the power of their gates. For example, Soon's ghost-paladin army would have been far more powerful if there were a bunch of illusion-oathspirits in there too, since that's ever more miss chances for the enemy attacks to eat. Or Lirian's Guardian Virus removing most of the attacks that can harm incorporeal creatures.

[Snails]

@Snails - Just because Soon's gate was assaulted 3rd doesn't prove anything. You have to consider all possibility not just what happened. You can't evaluate the merit of actions in the past based on knowledge of the future. What is more likely? That a newborn evil God with a grudge discovers a threat to reality and tries to twist it to better his chosen people, or a mortal Kingdom wanes in power over time and ceases to exist?

I am confused because it sounds like you are arguing against non-speculation by speculating about the future.

As I see, a criticism of a defense should be viewed within the larger context of what we know.

But as for speculations about the future...

It is rather unclear if Lirian and Dorukan had a useful plan that would survive the centuries.

Even if Azure City eventually faded, but a few more centuries of valiant fallen paladins reinforcing the ghost martyrs and methinks that throne room becomes unassailable. How lethal is Soon when backed by three or four or five times as many ghostly allies?

Staying cloaked in secrecy does not seem like something that would have worked for Clan Girard forever either. In fact, it failed.

[Kish]

However, you are positing that "Well, when Rich says they had a decades long history of wiping out entire villages, those are villages separate from the ones Redcloak is shown in or the ones Shojo discusses because... reasons!"


No he didn't, he had mooks running around attacking the bearer of the crimson mantle since that represented a direct threat to the gates :P
So your position is that a tiny goblin child is a "direct threat to the Gates"?

Or that "decades-long history of exterminating entire villages" means "they usually killed the bearer of the Crimson Mantle and left, but there was this one time they mysteriously went crazy"?

[denthor]

So your position is that a tiny goblin child is a "direct threat to the Gates"?

Or that "decades-long history of exterminating entire villages" means "they usually killed the bearer of the Crimson Mantle and left, but there was this one time they mysteriously went crazy"?


Kish in war and protecting the gates is a full time war.

In real life the enemy that won would take a baby and cast it down off the highest wall they could find if the child did not die repeat. The reason that was somebody that the opponent could rally around maybe sometime in the future if anybody was old enough to remember and tell a story.


So as long as one goblin survived and was of some class of farmer. They could be a threat to gate someday in the future. The Start of Darkness says:


Wrethed goblins of these forsaken wastelands. The twelve Gods have judged your hearts and found them to be evil. Further, one among you threatens the very foundation of creation itself.


So yeah kill them all since one is the one that is a threat. I guess you can ask nicely "if you are have plans to be a threat to creation sometime in your life time. Can you please give your self over to judgement and let us kill you for the good of everyone else. Present yourself now or everybody dies just so we are sure!!

Somethings work somethings do not.

[FujinAkari]

So your position is that a tiny goblin child is a "direct threat to the Gates"?

Or that "decades-long history of exterminating entire villages" means "they usually killed the bearer of the Crimson Mantle and left, but there was this one time they mysteriously went crazy"?

Yes, because that is clearly what I have been saying. Here are some examples of me talking about the necessity of killing children or about them only killing the bearer and leaving:


The Sapphire Guard saw all the Goblins as evil and therefore slaughtered them, which is absolutely evil and immoral and not ok and the reason some of them fell.


I'm pretty sure I never claimed otherwise. I also never used the term 'surgical strike'.

Are you sure you're arguing with the right person?

The funny thing is I am STILL questioning why you are trying to force the position of "The Sapphire Guard didn't do anything wrong!" onto me... I have STILL never taken such a position and really would rather not have anything to do with it.

My only guess is that you've realized that my actual statement, "Soon doesn't seem to have had genocide on his agenda" is impossible to effectively dispute and would -really- rather I had a different argument. Unfortunately for you, I don't :P

[CoffeeIncluded]

And besides, even though Soon founded the Sapphire Guard, Soon's long dead. Who knows what the Sapphire Guard became after he died? Would he still be proud of their actions? Would he whole-heartedly condone and endorse them?

[Kish]

The funny thing is I am STILL questioning why you are trying to force the position of "The Sapphire Guard didn't do anything wrong!" onto me... I have STILL never taken such a position and really would rather not have anything to do with it.
Really? Well, I'm glad to hear you're not taking it now, in any event.

denthor, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying at all.

[Pyron]

And besides, even though Soon founded the Sapphire Guard, Soon's long dead. Who knows what the Sapphire Guard became after he died? Would he still be proud of their actions? Would he whole-heartedly condone and endorse them?

Indeed....

Start of Darkness Spoiler

Redcloak's village massacre occurred 34 years prior, and Shojo has been in command for 47 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). So, it appears that the blood is on his hands and not Soon Kim's.

[ReaderAt2046]

The point is that he made himself and his location of the gate a target. Unless he actually succeeded in wiping out all evil (not realistic) history tells us that no kingdom stands forever. Engaging in such overt war hastens that demise. Long term it isn't near as sustainable as something super secret and safe. Once Soon dies the "secret" defense become much stronger but the "kingdom" defense becomes much weaker (especially considering shifting leadership). If the kingdom falls the "secret" defense will trigger and eventually evil will defeat it.

I'm not saying it's awful, just that the writing is on the wall. Soon's defense will fail given time.

Any defense will fail, give enough time. Sooner or later Lirian's forest will die, someone will spill the secret of Girard's pyramid, and Dorukan's monsters will be slain and his sigils broken one by one.

[Psyren]

Lirian's defense had the horribad weakness of being totally unable to affect anyone who was immune to disease. It's kind of ridiculous to not expect that in your foes at epic level. The fact that Xykon and Redcloak were idiots (who doesn't prepare for exotic poisons and diseases when they're going after an epic druid) doesn't mean her defense was adequate.

Girard's protections haven't been seen yet, but the mere fact that it took such a specific epic attack vector to nullify his protections has me leaning that direction.

[AcerbicOrb]

Soon's gate, by far. To claim it Xykon needed the power of an entire warrior nation to break through Azure City's defences, the power of two high level spellcasters and a clever trick to defeat the Sapphire Guard, and Soon would have destroyed Xykon were it not for Miko. Also, had Azure City known war was coming, and their defences not weakened by Julio Scoundrel, they probably could have held off the hobgoblins for long enough to further out forces to return and help. Oh, and it only gets more powerful over time, and doesn't rely on V not casting familicide.

[FujinAkari]

Really? Well, I'm glad to hear you're not taking it now, in any event.

You are really bad at this never thing huh? :P

Edit: Thinking back on it... I think I did hold the position you are trying to ascribe to me... 4 years ago. It is a bit telling that I updated my position over 1,300 days ago and, as of this thread, you still hadn't noticed!