Dex is important because...? [3.5]

[hymer]

Now, you get plenty of builds that pump a casting stat as high as possible. Strength is great for trip builds, grapplers and melee in general. And who doesn't want high con? You can even get it to AC if you want.
But what about dex? Suppose you somehow end up with a huge dex score, what do you do with it to get it working for you?

I'm asking because my last three or so PCs have dex as an obvious dump stat, and I was playing around with the idea of a really dextrous NPC. And then I came up sorta blank. It seems you only raise dex so high.

Could some playgrounders throw some thoughts about dex and its uses at me? I'd be grateful.

[veven]

Here ya go, friend! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

[docnessuno]

Initiative
AC (and touch AC)
Hitting with ranged weapons
Hitting with some melee weapons (weapon finesse)
Damage (multiple ways, Shadow blade being one of the most common)
A LOT of skills.

[Flickerdart]

Initiative is an obvious one - if you go first, then you basically get an extra turn over your opponent. Armour class is another, for lighter armour types especially. Reflex saves are a third thing, and if you're using ranged weapons you'll want Dexterity for accuracy. Finally, many skills that are worth using (such as Hide and Tumble) have Dexterity as their modifier.

[Diovid]

The X stat to Y bonus thread is a good place to start:

Races/Templates
Anthropomorphic Cat Savage Species p214 (3.0) Replaces Strength for Climb and Jump checks, 1HD +1LA
Illumian (Uurhuun) Races of Destiny p54 (3.5) Overcome SR
Illumian (Uurkrau) Races of Destiny p54 (3.5) Bonus Spells
Jungle Kobold Unearthed Arcana p15 (3.5) Replaces Strength for Climb checks
Muckdweller Serpent Kingdoms p71 (3.5) Swim checks (replaces strength)

Classes
Champion of C.L. 2 Races of the Wild p113 (3.5) Damage
Corsair 9 Dragon #321 p86 (3.5) Damage (replaces Strength)
Targeteer Fighter 1 Dragon #310 p38 (3.5) Ranged Damage (replaces Strength)
Fighter 1 Drow sub lvl DotU p58 (3.5) Damage vs Flat-footed foes
Perfected One Dragon #297 (p56) EPIC PrC: Fortitude saves (while unarmored)

Feats
Agile Athlete Races of the Wild p148 (3.5) Jump and Climb (instead of Strength)
Companion Guard Style Dragon #315 (3.5) Hit (replaces Strength) with Longsword or Long spear (+ other benefits)
Crossbow Sniper Players Handbook II p77 (3.5) 1/2 Damage to crossbow
Dead Eye DragMag304/DragComp p95 (3.5) Damage (Errata here)
Shadow Blade Tome of Battle p32 (3.5) Damage with Shadow Hand weapons
Tactile Trapsmith Complete Adventurer p112 (3.5) Disable Device and Search (instead of Intelligence)
Weapon Finesse PHB p102 (3.5) Hit (replaces Strength)

Equipment
Boots of Agile Leaping MIC p76 (3.5) Jump checks, replaces str (also allows you to get up from prone as a swift action)
Fey-craft Template DMG II p275 (3.5) Hit, replaces Strength, light weapons only
Fierce Enchantment Arms/Equip guide p96 (3.0) Damage, Removes AC bonus
Sword of Graceful Strikes Arms/Equip guide p120 (3.0) Damage
Characters which use attacks to deal damage but not through weapon damage (such as rogues with sneak attack) often take Weapon Finesse and pump up their dex. More so because many of those characters wear light armor or no armor and thus need the AC and because they often use a lot of skills which are governed by dex.

Edit:
Swordsage'd, of course.

[hymer]

Thanks guys.

So basically, what you're all saying is, dex is a secondary stat to everyone? It has its uses, but there isn't a class or build or something that would go for upping dex above all other stats? (I'm trying to goad you into saying more. AmIdoinitright?)

Well, there's a crossbow sniper, I guess.

[docnessuno]

Non-casters that favor Dex over Str:

Any ranged attacker (except bloodstorm blades)
Sneak attackers and other precision damage dealers (often)
Swordsages (very often)
Non-ranger TWFers
Frontliners without heavy armor proficiency

[Gavinfoxx]

People who are using crossbow sniper builds of various sorts, and have ways to get 3x dex to damage under certain circumstances, favor dex highly.

[NeoSeraphi]

Something that hasn't been brought up yet is why Sneak Attackers prefer Dex to Str. The reason for this is simple. Your real question should be "Str is important because...?"

Every other ability score, Str, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha, generally only apply to one thing or another. Str applies to melee attack rolls and melee damage rolls, as well as to combat maneuver checks, breaking down doors, carrying capacity and three skills (two in Pathfinder). See also: unless you're in melee, totally useless.

Con gives you hit points, Fortitude saves, checks to avoid exhaustion or starvation (do we really use those rules anymore?) and in 3.5, the Concentration skill.

Int gives you skill points and applies to a bunch of skills that are, for the most part, trained-only (so in 3.5, they're really only useful if they're class skills).

Wis gives you Will saves and applies to a few important skill checks like Perception/Spot Listen and Sense Motive.

Cha applies to skill checks related to social graces, and is split between so many skills that you also need a high Intelligence score to afford all the ranks you'll need to be a decent face anyway.

Meanwhile, Dex applies to Reflex saves, Initiative checks, ranged attack rolls, light melee attack rolls with Weapon Finesse, damage rolls with Dervish Dance or the Agile Weapon enchantment or Champion of Corellon, a whole bunch of skills used to maneuver and defend in combat, AC, touch AC, your CMD in PF, your CMB with Agile Maneuvers, and twice to Trip with Fury's Fall, etc etc.

Dex applies to so many things that if you can remove the need for Str (by making a ranged not-bow-user or a Sneak Attacker) it's just optimal to dump Str entirely and use Dex instead.

[BowStreetRunner]

Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade (ToB) on a Ranger/Cavestalker (DotU) with the spiked chain style and Oversized TWF (CAdv).

[Jack_Simth]

NeoSeraphi: I generally look at the stats in what they give a commoner:

Strength: Melee Attack, damage, carrying capacity, combat manuevers (both offensively and defensively)
Dexterity: Initiative, AC, Ranged Attack, Reflex saves, combat manuevers (defensively only)
Constitution: Fort saves, HP
Intelligence: Skill points
Wisdom: Will Saves
Charisma:

Everything also has related skills, of course, some more valuable than others. Many of the other things you mentioned, however, are tied to specific feats and/or class features - which you can pretty much find for any ability score.

So really, Charisma is the stat that has the least going for it, mechanically. However, it's also the one where you're most likely to find class features leaning on (Divine Grace, Smite Evil, Turn undead, and so on), which makes it a very stackable statistic.

I sometimes consider shifting things around a bit; move Initiative to Wisdom (figuring out what's going on first), and Will saves to Charisma (under the 'Strength of personality' clause).

[Glimbur]

If you're going sneak attack heavy on a rogue, you could dip Sneak Attack fighter, wear heavy armor, and get 10-12 dex. Also a 2 handed sword, for style. But that makes it rather harder to sneak or climb or other roguish things, at least until you can afford a magic item to don your armor quickly (I think it's the Ring of Arming?). Unconventional, but one of the benefits is that you get +str to damage automatically while you have to try for +dex to damage.

[LTwerewolf]

If you're going sneak attack heavy on a rogue, you could dip Sneak Attack fighter, wear heavy armor, and get 10-12 dex. Also a 2 handed sword, for style. But that makes it rather harder to sneak or climb or other roguish things, at least until you can afford a magic item to don your armor quickly (I think it's the Ring of Arming?). Unconventional, but one of the benefits is that you get +str to damage automatically while you have to try for +dex to damage.

And then penalize yourself to half the amount of sneak attack dice you could have had by using two weapons. Precision damage is one of the few cases that TWF is superior to THF.

[Flickerdart]

And then penalize yourself to half the amount of sneak attack dice you could have had by using two weapons. Precision damage is one of the few cases that TWF is superior to THF.
THF + armour spikes means you don't have to choose between the two.

[Aasimar]

I tend to think trying to make a secondary attack with armor spikes while still getting 1.5x damage with your main weapon isn't just tantamount to cheating, it is cheating.

If I run the game, you could either use just the two handed weapon with 1.5x or the two handed weapon with 1x + the spikes with 0.5x

[Darrin]

I tend to think trying to make a secondary attack with armor spikes while still getting 1.5x damage with your main weapon isn't just tantamount to cheating, it is cheating.


So, in other words, "Melee Can't Have Nice Things."

[TuggyNE]

I tend to think trying to make a secondary attack with armor spikes while still getting 1.5x damage with your main weapon isn't just tantamount to cheating, it is cheating.

If I run the game, you could either use just the two handed weapon with 1.5x or the two handed weapon with 1x + the spikes with 0.5x

Why would that be? You don't swing the greataxe with less force just because you're about to slam your shoulder into someone, any more than you would if you were alternating greataxe and Improved Unarmed Strikes (kicks).

[Glimbur]

And then penalize yourself to half the amount of sneak attack dice you could have had by using two weapons. Precision damage is one of the few cases that TWF is superior to THF.

This is a fair reason not to dump Dex. TWF only works on full attacks though, so depending on what kinds of critters you typically fight and how mobile you need to be THF might be better. It's conditional though.

[Fyermind]

Most TWF builds pump dex. Dex works to intiative and AC and Attacks and Damage with a weapon finesse and shadow blade. That is a big list.

[Darth Stabber]

Most TWF builds pump dex.

That's what makes Diopsid twfers are fun, allowing you to dump dex completely. Sure you have to pay extra for armor, but they ignore dex prerequisites for any feat that has two weapon in it's name. Plus who doesn't want to be giant bug dual wielding polearms. So much fun.

[Amphetryon]

THF + armour spikes means you don't have to choose between the two.

To be fair, Glimbur's example Sneak Attack Fighter has a DEX of 10-12, and thus cannot TWF without specific magic items or an unlisted dip in Ranger or similar.

[Darth Stabber]

To be fair, Glimbur's example Sneak Attack Fighter has a DEX of 10-12, and thus cannot TWF without specific magic items or an unlisted dip in Ranger or similar.

As previously stated: Diopsid.

[willpell]

I like to build Weapon Finesse fighters who poison their weapons so that a Strength penalty to damage isn't important. Though of course you have to make sure the DM doesn't belong to the "poison = evil" camp, unless you're playing evil anyway.

[PersonMan]

I like to build Weapon Finesse fighters who poison their weapons so that a Strength penalty to damage isn't important. Though of course you have to make sure the DM doesn't belong to the "poison = evil" camp, unless you're playing evil anyway.

Also requires:

-money for poisons (remember, the listed price is 1 dose!)
-poisons that are fast-acting enough to help (in 1 minute, you will take 1d4 Con damage! ...Oh, it's already dead?)

It's a cool idea, but hard to make work.

[Razgriez]

Of course, if your Swordsage, and go the Dex Finesse build way. Any damage lost from a lower STR score is made up easily by the class's abilities, and Maneuvers. Save your gp and don't buy poisons with low DC, or High DC, but mediocre effects. Instead, just use Shadow Hand maneuvers, and watch the ability damage pile up. Or take a page from the Warblade builds, and go crit fishing with kukris and rapiers, and enjoy being able to just rip enemies to shred with Tiger Claw.

And as mentioned by others, the weakest stat in DnD, actually goes to Charisma: It's a dump stat for virtually everyone minus Paladin, Clerics, Bards and Sorcerers in the PHB, and anyone else who might use it to power abilities, such as Crusaders to power their White Raven and Devoted Soul Disciplines, as well as their Indomitable Soul and Smite abilities. As for Charisma based skill checks, that's nothing that a bunch of points in Intelligence can't solve, or there's an alternative way to fix it.

Example: You want to perform for the Royal Court to impress them, but your intense focus with your martial skills has left you with two left feet, and the only song you vaguely recall was the somewhat inappropriate one sung at the last tavern you were at drinking until you passed out? No problem! Just do a Weapon Drill Performance! Now your BAB is your skill ranks, and you get bonuses if you have a selection of certain weapon based feats! No training required!

[Amphetryon]

As previously stated: Diopsid.

Wasn't previously stated by Glimbur, LTwerewolf or Flickerdart, so my commentary - which was restricted to Flickerdart's retort to LTwerewolf's comment on Glimbur's post - still appears relevant.

[Eldariel]

I tend to think trying to make a secondary attack with armor spikes while still getting 1.5x damage with your main weapon isn't just tantamount to cheating, it is cheating.

If I run the game, you could either use just the two handed weapon with 1.5x or the two handed weapon with 1x + the spikes with 0.5x

Eh, it's not very useful either way. Armor Spikes can't be used with Power Attack so you lose the real big reason to two-hand and since you have To Hit penalties, the gains aren't very real either way. Power Attack doesn't mesh well with damage boosts in any case.

[Gavinfoxx]

Eh, it's not very useful either way. Armor Spikes can't be used with Power Attack so you lose the real big reason to two-hand and since you have To Hit penalties, the gains aren't very real either way. Power Attack doesn't mesh well with damage boosts in any case.

That's why the combo is greatsword + armor spikes! Or Heavy spiked shield + armor spikes!

[Darrin]

That's why the combo is greatsword + armor spikes! Or Heavy spiked shield + armor spikes!

If you want to use Power Attack, then greatsword + unarmed strike is a better combo, since you still get Power Attack damage on unarmed strikes (but no multipliers, unfortunately).

You can get Power Attack on a heavy shield if you use Agile Shield Fighter (or Oversize TWF), although you still need to take the TWF line of feats if you want more than one attack. Make the shield spikes exotic (via Heavy Weapons from MoF or Kaorti resin), then dip into Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow and better Power Attack multipliers, although that's pretty feat-intensive. Getting 2x Power Attack on both your primary and offhand would mean two heavy shields or more feats for another one-handed exotic weapon.

[Gavinfoxx]

Greatsword + Gauntlet or Greatsword + Spiked Gauntlets, then... you can power attack with those, right?

[Eldariel]

Greatsword + Gauntlet or Greatsword + Spiked Gauntlets, then... you can power attack with those, right?

You can't wield either at the same time. UA Strike and Armor Spikes are the only default weapons that don't require hands. UA Strike+Greatsword is slightly better for Power Attacking of the two but either loses to plain Greatsword with no secondary weapon. So yeah...

[Gavinfoxx]

Aren't there some non exotic foot blades or knee blades or something??

[CosmicOccurence]

I'll just leave this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142080) here. If nothing else, it should provide some thought on dex based skills in combat.

[Captnq]

Well, if you are willing to go back to 3.0, arms&equipment guide, you have the weapon special ability Fierce. You can give up dexterity bonus to do extra damage on all your melee attacks for the round with that weapon. Sort of like power attack for Dex gods.