How do you tone down optimization?

[Seer_of_Heart]

I've only known about d&d and have been actively playing it/reading 3.5 books for a couple months but I fell in love with the concept of optimization and how much fun it is for me. But when actually playing a game with my friends I noticed how I was the only one except for the dm that looked at anything besides core and even for a quick glance. I've noticed in playstyles and our characters there is a noticeable power disparity between me and the rest of the party. So how do you tone down your character as to make sure everyone has fun.

[Snowbluff]

You play something that give other people benefits rather than just yourself. It makes staying out of the spotlight really easy.

Or you optimize something that isn't very goodin the first place, like Warlock or Paladin.

[JellyPooga]

Just say "no".

If you want to tone down your characters, then intentionally take Feats and Class combinations you know are less powerful. Take Weapon Focus instead of Power Attack. Play Blaster mages. Be a Monk. Limit your splatbooks to only "Core plus One". Just avoid the blatant cheese and play something that resembles the so-called "archetypal" classes.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It depends a lot on your group; but in general there are two main ways to do it, optimizing for party support (DFI Bard, BFC-wizard, etc) to make everyone more awesome or you can take an inherently weaker option (monk, fighter and the like) and optimize that.

[Snowbluff]

It depends a lot on your group; but in general there are two main ways to do it, optimizing for party support (DFI Bard, BFC-wizard, etc) to make everyone more awesome or you can take an inherently weaker option (monk, fighter and the like) and optimize that.

You know, it's okay to quote me and leave a "QFT" if you are agreeing with me. :smallfrown:

[Xervous]

There is also the option of using your optimization skills to fine tune your character for something other than pure numbers and winzorz. Use every option available to you to nail down a character concept, making it as unique and memorable as possible while still playable at the level the group is gaming at.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually you ninjae'd me.

[Snowbluff]

Actually you ninjae'd me.

Oh, sorry my brony from another... something that rhymes with brony?
...pony.

[Kobold Esq]

So how do you tone down your character as to make sure everyone has fun.

By choice. It isn't that hard.

When the rest of the players say "I'm gonna be a fighter!" or "Warlocks look cool!" all you have to do is put away the DMM Persistent buffer, and pick something else.

[limejuicepowder]

If you really like optimizing, then I predict you will get bored quickly if you just make crappy choices to stay on par with the group.

Instead, I recommend you optimize concepts instead of just power. Pick a character type from a movie or book or whatever inspiration you want and try to make that character. Often times, you will end up with a flavorful and fun character that isn't off the hook in the power department (especially because most historically accurate forms of combat are unsupported in DnD. Sword and board anyone?).

You can also roleplay in to weakness: maybe your character is very good, but has a debilitating physical illness or plethora of phobias.

Some fun stereotypes -
1) The blind martial artist
2) The street fighter
3) Over-the-hill soldier/mercenary
4) The pyromaniac
5) The clumsy rookie

You can also go the route of trying to mechanically represent a fictional character as accurately as possible (manga is a great source for this). Doing this often leads to odd builds with a "jack of all trades" streak, and thus not as strong as they could be.

[Morcleon]

Another option that somewhat goes off of what everyone else has said is to play what you want, at whatever power level. Then create an IC reason that your PC wouldn't go full power on everything (dislike for own powers/source of powers, a bad memory, etc), and only play up to potential in drastic situations.

[Seer_of_Heart]

@limejuicepowder Yes that's my concern not optimizing feels boring, as well as I do not enjoy melee/non magic characters very much so those suggestions start as a monk are problematic. However playing a buffer DFI bard sounds like it would be fun to optimize, especially because of our houserule that bards have to actually sing a song when they're bard related abilities :smalltongue:

edit: I have no idea what a DFI bard is I need to look up where its from

[Private]

You could also try an opposite, and probably controversial, approach of helping the other players improve their characters. Often a few tweaks to feats or play styles can drastically alter the effectiveness of a player's character. Perhaps your group would climb on board with you, or perhaps not, but it could definitely be worth a try to show the group what makes the game fun for you.

I am like you, so I found a group of like-minded players who like to see what kind of combinations we can make to tackle difficult published adventures. That way the DM doesn't constantly have to feel like he's trying to balance things for the party, and you can all get a sense of accomplishment by doing well in a difficult scenario.

If this doesn't sound like a good route for your group, just refer to the other posts. They all seem to offer good advice. :)

[Seer_of_Heart]

You could also try an opposite, and probably controversial, approach of helping the other players improve their characters. Often a few tweaks to feats or play styles can drastically alter the effectiveness of a player's character. Perhaps your group would climb on board with you, or perhaps not, but it could definitely be worth a try to show the group what makes the game fun for you.

I have been trying to help improve their characters, but I'm trying to avoid all of them be characters that I make. What I've done is they say I want to do X but have no idea how. I then give a few ideas on doing it and they pick one that's appealing to them. I've also been trying to show them why I enjoy optimization but they seem to think I'm weird :smalltongue:. I wish I could find a group who can all optimize so that no one really is going to outshine the other because they're all powerful.

[Feralventas]

2nding and 3rding the calls to play buff/support. A Cleric or Wizard dedicated to making everyone else's job easier or their actions more effective is both useful and challenging.

I'd suggest a perusal of the usual Tier comparisons (1 to 6) and trying to keep yourself in the 3 to 4 range; powerful enough to do their job, or generalize if needed, but not so much that they'll over-step another character's role on a regular basis. Things like the Bard, Warlock, Beguiler, Warblade, and the like.
You're looking at
6th level spellcasters with a fair amount of support. (Bard, Psychic Warrior)
9th level spellcasters with a very limited spell selection. (Warmage, Dread Necromancer)
Tome of Battle base classes. (Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader)
Alternative power classes (Binder, Incarnate)


Another option is to slow your progression of the very potent classes; T2 and T1's like Psion or Cleric. One game I played in required any full-casting class to multi-class at 4th and every three levels after that. This meant that if maxed out, a Druid would get 7th level spells by level 20, and Could get 9th's in epic levels, while still keeping the feeling of focusing on being a Spellcaster. One could also go for less than full casting progression PrC's as long as the improvements in caster level didn't surpass the intended 2:1 ratio, encouraging the use of otherwise sub-par but deliciously flavored prestige classes that offered half or 3/4's casting progression. If your character concept doesn't allow for any non-caster levels, you can switch to a different casting class (Wizard3/sha'ir1/wizard4-5/sha'ir2 and so forth.)

[JaronK]

I like playing strong characters that are lawful stupid or similar, and thus handicap themselves... who also boost the party. For example, I've made Dragonwrought Kobolds who are obsessed with kicking down the door and screaming "STAND BACK BEFORE THE MIGHT OF DRAGONS!" It means the firepower is focused on me. Combine that with a few War Weaver levels, and everyone else is doing great.

Likewise, I did a very lazy DMM Persist Cleric once, who pretty much just followed along with the party and only Persisted party buffs. And he only really contributed to a fight directly if people were in real danger. That way they thought I wasn't doing all that much, even though I carried the party.

JaronK

[rot42]

edit: I have no idea what a DFI bard is I need to look up where its from

Dragonfire Inspiration, a feat from Dragon Magic (p 17) that modifies your Bard's Inspire Courage ability.

[TheifofZ]

Dragonfire Inspiration, a feat from Dragon Magic (p 17) that modifies your Bard's Inspire Courage ability.

Specifically, it replaces the normal +x to attack and damage with +xd6 Fire damage on physical attacks dealt by the party. It's quite good at boosting the party with insane amounts of damage while letting everyone else actually do everything.
Of course, in a low optimization setting this might actually be counterproductive, as the DM might not appreciate having a 6th level fighter running around with ~+8D6 Fire damage per hit (at only medium power output), and the other players might not appreciate the whole "need the bard to deal damage" kind of feeling.

In general it's hard to balance your optimization desires while still keeping your character down on their level. If you feel like you absolutely can't cripple your characters down to their level and still have fun, then I do agree with the others that buffing type characters are a good way to go about it. I suppose I can't really sympathize with the feeling, so I can't suggest anything good. I personally like to build cripplingly over-specialized characters that are insanely optimized to do exactly -one- thing, and kind of suck when it comes to everything else. The fun part is then making it so that I can use the exact one thing I'm good at no matter what. Like figuring out how to use a Fire specialized Blaster Mage in the Elemental Plane of Fire.

[Artillery]

I find it funny how in my group I am the most optimized player. I was the newest member of the group and decided to go something that is cool to roleplay and helpful to the party. Tome of Battle is allowed so I decided that a Swordsage/Warblade who focuses on battlefield control would be cool. I do the most damage in normal circumstances, but aid our rogue where ever possible. Using stances and maneuvers that assist my allies more then myself.
I could jump my movement speed as a swift action and use strikes and full attacks every round. I instead tend to use moves that are single strike and help my allies. Tactical Strike, Island of Blades, useful melee stuff.

Then to top it off, I do everything I can to avoid combat for the rest of the party. Last session I managed to steer an encounter into a non-lethal one by challenging the leader of a band of goblins to a hand to hand fight. Our rogue bet a box filled with "treasure"(marbles) and magically locked, locked boxes have the good stuff, against their treasure, winner take all. Goblins are small, I'm medium. I won the wrestling match in awesome style, mighty throw when used in grapple is considered a suplex and I sent him into a flaming torch that was lighting the room. I allowed him to surrender and helped him out of the fire. We won our treasure as well as the favor of a number goblins. No one died.

The fact our DM expected us to just slaughter them all and was surprised at how we didn't. Also the fact that we started late and doing this allowed us to avoid combat with 20 other combatants. 2 people 4 turns, done. Even if the turns did involve grapple rules.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I don't think anyone in my group is going to care about the extra damage the DM can just give the enemies more health, and I doubt anyone is going to feel that they can't do anything without the bard. the idea of the bard's singing making fists do loads of fire damage is so entertaining my whole group would love it :smallbiggrin:.

Edit: Oh my god, I just had a funny idea in my head swarm tactics with warforged monks all buffed doing loads of fire damage with their fists

[Snowbluff]

I prefer regular Inspire Courage. +10 attack, +10 weapon damage is worth way more than ~35 fire damage in my book. Ofcourse, if I am a high enough level to have Combine Songs, I'll use them both.

[Darius Kane]

So how do you tone down your character as to make sure everyone has fun.
The most important question here is: Does your optimizing actually make the game less fun for the other players?

[Morcleon]

I prefer regular Inspire Courage. +10 attack, +10 weapon damage is worth way more than ~35 fire damage in my book. Ofcourse, if I am a high enough level to have Combine Songs, I'll use them both.

At lower levels, the extra few d6 of fire damage can be really helpful, as attack rolls are overly dependent on the d20 luck rather than extra +'s.

Of course, it's a shame that there's no dragonice, dragonlightning, dragonacid, dragonsound, dragonforce, dragonlight, dragondeath, dragondry, and dragonrandom inspiration feats. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

At lower levels, the extra few d6 of fire damage can be really helpful, as attack rolls are overly dependent on the d20 luck rather than extra +'s.

Of course, it's a shame that there's no dragonice, dragonlightning, dragonacid, dragonsound, dragonforce, dragonlight, dragondeath, dragondry, and dragonrandom inspiration feats. :smalltongue:

Well considering +1 to hit is such a huge bonus at level 1, I don't I would miss the 2.5 less damage.

[Morcleon]

Well considering +1 to hit is such a huge bonus at level 1, I don't I would miss the 2.5 less damage.

*3.5. :smallbiggrin: Also, the entire party dealing an extra 1d6 when most monsters don't have very much HP at all may be enough to burn through most encounters.

[Deophaun]

AOf course, it's a shame that there's no dragonice, dragonlightning, dragonacid, dragonsound...
There are, actually. If you take the draconic heritage feat, you choose which dragon you are descended from, and you use that to determine the energy type of your DFI. Some dragons, like the pyroclastic dragon, give you a choice (fire or sonic).

[Qwertystop]

There are, actually. If you take the draconic heritage feat, you choose which dragon you are descended from, and you use that to determine the energy type of your DFI. Some dragons, like the pyroclastic dragon, give you a choice (fire or sonic).

Wait, you can get sonic damage to every attack? Is it toned down like other sources of sonic damage? If not, that's the best one.

[Deophaun]

Wait, you can get sonic damage to every attack? Is it toned down like other sources of sonic damage? If not, that's the best one.
Yes, and not toned down at all.

[absolmorph]

*3.5. :smallbiggrin: Also, the entire party dealing an extra 1d6 when most monsters don't have very much HP at all may be enough to burn through most encounters.
No, Snowbluff was right.
+1 to hit AND +1 to damage.

[Morcleon]

No, Snowbluff was right.
+1 to hit AND +1 to damage.

"2.5 less damage". >.<

Yeah, sorry 'bout that. :smallredface:

[Snowbluff]

"2.5 less damage". >.<

Yeah, sorry 'bout that. :smallredface:

M-M-Mega burn!

Anyway, +1 to hit is the difference betwixt a fight and a commoner at level 1. +5 to hit is the difference between a commoner and a fighter at level 10, but by then you can have +10.

Resistable energy damage that doesn't multiple simply doesn't compare, especially when you calculate the damage lost from not hitting almost all of the time.

[Morcleon]

M-M-Mega burn!

Anyway, +1 to hit is the difference betwixt a fight and a commoner at level 1. +5 to hit is the difference between a commoner and a fighter at level 10, but by then you can have +10.

Resistable energy damage that doesn't multiple simply doesn't compare, especially when you calculate the damage lost from not hitting almost all of the time.

At levels 1-2, I've found it more effective to have a larger damage chance when no one really has any resistance to fire. Once you go over level 3-4, DFI loses most of it's appeal, as more and more enemies get increasingly higher AC and resistance to fire. That's when you retrain it out for something better.

Also, this thread does ask for less optimization though. :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

At levels 1-2, I've found it more effective to have a larger damage chance when no one really has any resistance to fire. Once you go over level 3-4, DFI loses most of it's appeal, as more and more enemies get increasingly higher AC and resistance to fire. That's when you retrain it out for something better.

Also, this thread does ask for less optimization though. :smallwink:

Right. Inspire Courage is stealthier, though. Steady damage gets less cries of "OMG OP" than a chance to once-shot something.

[absolmorph]

M-M-Mega burn!

Anyway, +1 to hit is the difference betwixt a fight and a commoner at level 1. +5 to hit is the difference between a commoner and a fighter at level 10, but by then you can have +10.

Resistable energy damage that doesn't multiple simply doesn't compare, especially when you calculate the damage lost from not hitting almost all of the time.
Sounds like a case of ... Frostburn. -glasses-

Not multiplying is only going to become really important if they've got some crit optimization going or they're doing some form of ubercharger (even if it's toned down). If they go the route of more attacks, then the +xd6 is going to have a bigger impact over time.


Right. Inspire Courage is stealthier, though. Steady damage gets less cries of "OMG OP" than a chance to once-shot something.
This is very true, and is a big part of the reason why a canny optimizer in a low-op group who wants to optimize but wants to let others have their fun will focus on buffing everyone else rather than being directly awesome themselves.

[Morcleon]

Right. Inspire Courage is stealthier, though. Steady damage gets less cries of "OMG OP" than a chance to once-shot something.

True. It's also core, which some people feel is more acceptable than splatbooks. :smalltongue:

[Deophaun]

Resistable energy damage that doesn't multiple simply doesn't compare, especially when you calculate the damage lost from not hitting almost all of the time.
It's going to depend on what you're fighting and who your allies are. If you've got a warblade rocking an emerald razor, or a duskblade with wraithstrike, or just fighting one of the many monsters whose AC doesn't measure up to their CR, DFI is killer. Have a bow-focused ranger or fighter? Well, they can't power attack, so DFI. Up against a monster with 30 DR/-, or something with vulnerability to whatever energy type you can use? DFI.

Otherwise, are you up against Platey McArmorington of the Impenetrable Shield? Ok, IC. Got three pouncing leap attacking barbarians on your side? IC. Are they shock troopers? DFI.

The great thing is, the feat doesn't eliminate your ability to use vanilla IC. It gives you a good amount of flexibility. In fact, you can even get both vanilla IC and DFI going at the same time if you want to invest the feats/gold into it.

[HunterOfJello]

1. If you can't resist the addiction of optimization, then choose a class with a lower tier. Don't play the can-do-anything wizard, play the can-do-almost-anything beguiler.

2. Focusing on being the optimized companion, as mentioned earlier, is also a good strategy. Play the transmuter wizard who takes levels in War Weaver. Then you aren't absolutely dominating your enemies through your sheer personal wizardry, you're absolutely dominating your enemies through the buffed up power of your allies. A fighter who ordinarily complains about wizards being OP due to battlefield control spells will often become far quieter when the wizard in the party is regularly casting Enlarge Person, Haste, and Bite of the Wereboar on the party.

3. Intentionally try to play a deoptimized character who succeeds due to sheer cleverness. Play a Feat Rogue who uses magical and mundane items to pretend that he's a wizard. Pull out every book you know of that has interesting equipment and use them to their full extent. Overwhelm your enemies with smokesticks, flour, twine, spider poles, some carefully placed insectbane candles, and a flask of Orc Kragg. Who needs magic when they have a purse full of gold coins and an open market of nifty items?

[Snowbluff]

Otherwise, are you up against Platey McArmorington of the Impenetrable Shield? Ok, IC. Got three pouncing leap attacking barbarians on your side? IC. Are they shock troopers? DFI.


It's a feat slot. Shocker Troopers, suddenly you can replace your relatively negligible damage with +10 AC.

Animal Companion? IC. They can't hit crap otherwise.

TWF? Holy hell IC. Slashing Flurry TWF? IC is a godsend.

Touch spell users in the party? IC.

Once you can IC and DFI at the same time, that's when it's worth having. Wraithstrike isn't a Duskblade spell normally. They need their Swift Actions for other things, anyway.

[Morcleon]

Wraithstrike isn't a Duskblade spell normally. They need their Swift Actions for other things, anyway.

Yeah, but Extra Spell (wraithstrike) or a drakehelm (wraithstrike) is inordinately helpful. Then you can splurge on arcane strike and power attack.

What else would you do with your swift actions? Quicken true strike is really the only other thing I can think of... Care to share? :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, but Extra Spell (wraithstrike) or a drakehelm (wraithstrike) is inordinately helpful. Then you can splurge on arcane strike and power attack.

What else would you do with your swift actions? Quicken true strike is really the only other thing I can think of... Care to share? :smallbiggrin:

Well, for starters they get the Swift Versions of most spells. Like, he could Wraithstrike and take DFI, or he could Swift Haste or and get IC. Quickcast Enervation is pretty fun, too.

Stand and Quickcast Dimension Hop are rather good as well.

[Deophaun]

Snowbluff, I'm not going to argue that DFI is always better than IC, or IC doesn't compete with DFI. I will say, in my gaming experience, IC does not have all the advantages that you may think it has in the cases you listed. (For starters: IC gives out morale bonuses, which don't stack with the dozens of other ways to easily get morale bonuses)

[Morcleon]

Well, for starters they get the Swift Versions of most spells. Like, he could Wraithstrike and take DFI, or he could Swift Haste or and get IC. Quickcast Enervation is pretty fun, too.

Stand and Quickcast Dimension Hop are rather good as well.

Duskblades don't get haste. I'll admit that there are some good debuffs to use a swift action for (ray of enfeeblement/exhaustion, enervation).

...why would you even have Stand? You're spending one of your few spells known for a very situational benefit when 1) tripping isn't particularly common (and if you are tripped, you are a melee class w/ full BAB) and 2) if you're really that worried about trippers, just switch out ride for tumble via the cityscape web enhancement and get the Back on Your Feet skill trick.

[Snowbluff]

Snowbluff, I'm not going to argue that DFI is always better than IC, or IC doesn't compete with DFI. I will say, in my gaming experience, IC does not have all the advantages that you may think it has in the cases you listed. (For starters: IC gives out morale bonuses, which don't stack with the dozens of other ways to easily get morale bonuses)

Attack is universally useful. Morale Bonuses as large as an optimized IC are hard to come by, and the cost of other people having to use Morale bonus is high.


Duskblades don't get haste. I'll admit that there are some good debuffs to use a swift action for (ray of enfeeblement/exhaustion, enervation).

...why would you even have Stand? You're spending one of your few spells known for a very situational benefit when 1) tripping isn't particularly common (and if you are tripped, you are a melee class w/ full BAB) and 2) if you're really that worried about trippers, just switch out ride for tumble via the cityscape web enhancement and get the Back on Your Feet skill trick.

Well, compare Stand's utility to your other options for first levels spells. Tripping isn't the only way to go prone. It's a move action to get up otherwise. If you are a Telflammar Shadow Lord/Duskblade, falling over and teleporting upright for the full attack is worth it. I would understand relegating it to a wand, though.

Travel Devotion is a pretty sweet use of a swift action.

I actually just ran a level 9 Bard. We got knocked prone by some Golem from MMV. I wished I had Stand as a spell or wand. I won't even bring up how awesome never missing due to IC is.

[Morcleon]

Well, compare Stand's utility to your other options for first levels spells. Tripping isn't the only way to go prone. It's a move action to get up otherwise. If you are a Telflammar Shadow Lord/Duskblade, falling over and teleporting upright for the full attack is worth it. I would understand relegating it to a wand, though.

Travel Devotion is a pretty sweet use of a swift action.

I actually just ran a level 9 Bard. We got knocked prone by some Golem from MMV. I wished I had Stand as a spell or wand. I won't even bring up how awesome never missing due to IC is.

Other 1st levels like Resist Energy, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp and True Strike? :smalltongue: It's just too situational to spend a spell known on. The Shadow Lord combo is one of the few reasons it would be useful. Using it as it was meant to be used would be be done with a wand.

Travel Devotion is pretty good, but you could just get a Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker. Same effect (but only for one round) for 500 gp. Price it up to an at-will thing, and you're set to go.

[Snowbluff]

Other 1st levels like Resist Energy, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp and True Strike? :smalltongue: It's just too situational to spend a spell known on. The Shadow Lord combo is one of the few reasons it would be useful. Using it as it was meant to be used would be be done with a wand.

Truestrike? +20 on your next is useless unless you Quickcast it during your full attack. Wand-fodder, to be sure.:smallyuk:

Shocking Grasp is on your list, no questions asked. Resist Energy is understandable, but Chill Touch's save is abysmal and not everyone will let you Channel multiple touches off of 1 slot.


Travel Devotion is pretty good, but you could just get a Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker. Same effect (but only for one round) for 500 gp. Price it up to an at-will thing, and you're set to go.

Watch the custom item pulls, Morcleon. These are subject to DM-fiat.

[Deophaun]

Attack is universally useful.
Not when you already only miss on a 1. And if I can hit 3/4ths of the time, a +10 has no functional difference to a +4.

Morale Bonuses as large as an optimized IC are hard to come by, and the cost of other people having to use Morale bonus is high.
A) The morale bonus does not need to be as high. If I can provide a +4 morale bonus to the party, then IC has lost +4 of its appeal. You're now only granting a +6 relative to the party's current attack rolls. Now, see above. DFI plays much better with allied buffing.
B) High in what way? A round of pre-combat buffing?

I've played receiving both, and I've played giving both. Theory is fine, but it doesn't hold in game.

[Morcleon]

Truestrike? +20 on your next is useless unless you Quickcast it during your full attack. Wand-fodder, to be sure.:smallyuk:

Shocking Grasp is on your list, no questions asked. Resist Energy is understandable, but Chill Touch's save is abysmal and not everyone will let you Channel multiple touches off of 1 slot.

True strike is useful specifically for quick cast. :smalltongue:

If you're allowed to channel multiple touches, chill touch is good. If not, then ray of enfeeblement is better. It may not be Str damage, but there's no save, you have full BAB, and it's a touch attack.


Watch the custom item pulls, Morcleon. These are subject to DM-fiat.

Yeah, yeah. Even if you can't get it at-will, you can still stack the enhancement several times onto different items. And even if that's not allowed, it's still useable 1/day. While it's not as good as Travel Devotion, you've got to ask yourself one question. Is it worth the feat? :smallwink:

[Melcar]

you dont. You just keep you power secret from rest of the group!