afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[Gralamin]

On dragons on the planes:

You should make a difference here between 2nd Ed Planescape and third edition material.

Because there's a part. I remember very well, I think from the original campaign setting, that mentions that dragons are almost never seen on the planes. There is some speculation on why, with the assumption that maybe it is because they are such magical creatures and inherently linked to the material plane.

Then, in third edition, we got planar dragons.

I can think of at least one exception: Rust Dragons, which live on Acheron and are known for their relationship with Achaierai. (See: Planes of Law)

[Answerer]

scribble, scribble

Afro indicates this is not the canonical answer to Rakshasas. Would it be true of Couatl, or are they also originally from some plane?
Afro knows far more than me, I was literally just describing what the Outsider (Native) subtype generally means. Rakshasas seem to be a special case, then.

[Chilingsworth]

The thing is, (native) outsiders are explicitly raisable. So, they don't fuse with their home Plane, unlike other outsiders.

[willpell]

That segues me into a question, though I don't quite know how to phrase it. A probably-wrong first attempt: What is the point of there being both a Material Plane and The Outlands? If all the alignment forces are balanced in the Material Plane, why have an Outer Plane where they are likewise balanced? Why should the Great Wheel require more than one center?

[AuraTwilight]

That segues me into a question, though I don't quite know how to phrase it. A probably-wrong first attempt: What is the point of there being both a Material Plane and The Outlands? If all the alignment forces are balanced in the Material Plane, why have an Outer Plane where they are likewise balanced? Why should the Great Wheel require more than one center?

The Outer Plane is the center of the moral/ethical axis; the Material Plane is much more broad in its scope, in that it is the middle of the axis of material and spiritual forces.

That, and True Neutral people deserve an afterlife too.

[Eldan]

Dragons again: dangit, I can't find it now. But it's sticking in my head, now. I'll go ask on Planewalker later, maybe Rip is around.

[Larkas]

There's also the supposed confluence between the Elemental Planes, which should be but is NOT the Material Plane. Besides, throw the Ordial Plane into the mix and the Material Plane doesn't seem to be the center of the multiverse so much.

Rephrasing in in-universe terms: The Prime Material Plane isn't the center of the Wheel, clueless berk. :smallwink:

[willpell]

Besides, throw the Ordial Plane into the mix and the Material Plane doesn't seem to be the center of the multiverse so much.

Well the Ordial isn't in 3E, and I still don't really grasp what it was supposed to have been in the first place. Why should the Astral and Ethereal have any connection? They strike me as being polar opposites, with Shadow sort of a midpoint between them.

[afroakuma]

Afro indicates this is not the canonical answer to Rakshasas. Would it be true of Couatl, or are they also originally from some plane?

Couatl are Material Plane denizens.


Afro knows far more than me, I was literally just describing what the Outsider (Native) subtype generally means. Rakshasas seem to be a special case, then.

They are, because they are outsider spirits (extraplanar) who made bodies for themselves that are of the Material Plane (native).


What is the point of there being both a Material Plane and The Outlands? If all the alignment forces are balanced in the Material Plane, why have an Outer Plane where they are likewise balanced? Why should the Great Wheel require more than one center?

The Great Wheel has only one center: Sigil. The Outlands is the plane of concord and opposition (see what I did there?) It governs true neutrality and also ensures the Balance by mediating shifts between Outer Planes and handling temporary overflow when parts of a plane slide. It takes in and it pushes back, preventing some radical shifts from happening and limiting small-scale exploitation of planar slides.

The Outer Planes are reflections of Material Plane belief; they flow "out" of the Material Plane, whereas the Inner Planes flow "in."


Why should the Astral and Ethereal have any connection?

Because they do? :smalltongue: They're both Transitive Planes, and pretty crucial ones at that, unlike the other one.


They strike me as being polar opposites

Which they are supposed to be. The Ethereal is the Plane of Potential, the Astral the Plane of Thought and the Ordial, if it did exist, would be the Plane of Proof.

[willpell]

Couatl are Material Plane denizens.

They are now; were they always is what I'm asking.


They are, because they are outsider spirits (extraplanar) who made bodies for themselves that are of the Material Plane (native).

So, contrary to the 1E monster manual, they don't come from India. :smallamused:


Because they do? :smalltongue: They're both Transitive Planes, and pretty crucial ones at that, unlike the other one.

I have no idea where you're getting this from (which doesn't mean I disbelieve or disagree, I'm just baffled).


Which they are supposed to be. The Ethereal is the Plane of Potential, the Astral the Plane of Thought and the Ordial, if it did exist, would be the Plane of Proof.

Proof of what? And how is Ethereal the plane of Potential, given that it's where ghosts end up? I'd think it'd be the opposite of Potential, which sounds more like it could describe Astral, as IIRC some call Astral the place where thoughts are born. (Of course I may be thinking of a completely different game's Astral plane there.)

[afroakuma]

They are now; were they always is what I'm asking.

Yes bloody yes. I would have said otherwise were that not the case. :smallmad:


So, contrary to the 1E monster manual, they don't come from India. :smallamused:

Oh, some of them probably incarnated there. Wonder what it says that one of India's chiefest Hells is Acheron...


I have no idea where you're getting this from (which doesn't mean I disbelieve or disagree, I'm just baffled).

...the Manual of the Planes. The book where they are both explicitly identified as Transitive Planes. Given that they are both detailed. In the chapter. Entitled "The Transitive Planes."


Proof of what?

"Proof" is that which links "fact" and "belief." "Fact" is the Inner Planes, "Belief" is the Outer Planes; the Ordial Plane is the theoretical conduit between the two. I don't see how this is hard to grasp.


And how is Ethereal the plane of Potential

It's filled with protomatter. That's why it's where demiplanes form and genesis is cast. It's the intangible veil, the higher order, the figurative "fourth dimension." The Ethereal is the primary medium used to make the impossible possible. It's the conduit between the Inner Planes and the Material Plane.

[enderlord99]

the figurative "fourth dimension."

I'd make a comment about another plane mentioned in this thread, in a slightly less theoretical manner than the Ordial, but I think I've just made it pretty obvious what I would say already.

[afroakuma]

I'd make a comment about another plane mentioned in this thread, in a slightly less theoretical manner than the Ordial, but I think I've just made it pretty obvious what I would say already.

I did say "figurative." I'm talking hypercubes, not that other thing.

[Lord_Gareth]

What are some famous planar libraries? How might one access them?

Aside from the Pact Primeval, are there any major treaties between the ruling bodies of various planes?

What can you tell us about Baalphegor and Lilith?

[afroakuma]

What are some famous planar libraries? How might one access them?

The Civic Festhall, the Sensate headquarters, has (had) a massive archive of magically stored experiences. Boccob's realm on the Outlands, the Library of Lore, is obviously quite extensive, though you'll need to be in good standing with the Lord of All Magic to use it. Several other gods of knowledge have large stores of information; one of the other major examples would be Deneir's realm, the Library of All Knowledge. Thoth's Estate contains a library, but it's locked within a massive crypt and Thoth rarely extends invites.

Asmodeus and Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE&t=0m45s) both have massive private libraries; Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE&t=0m45s)'s may be the largest in the Lower Planes.

The easiest one to get to may be the Great Library, also known as the Lady's Library, located in Sigil. It's a massive tower maintained by the dabus, and costs are a nominal 1 gp per day. The college in Tradegate has a serviceable library, though not a great one. Rumors persist of a vast interplanar library, the Library of Alexandria, immense and labyrinthine and containing, somewhere, a copy of every tome ever penned. This library is said to have connections to all others, but finding it, let alone navigating it, would be a Herculean task, and the Library does not care for its collection.

The most obscure of the libraries may be Timaresh, a concealed repository once guarded by a vanished ancient race of neutrality. It may now be in the hands of the rilmani, or it may have slipped away with those who came before.


Aside from the Pact Primeval, are there any major treaties between the ruling bodies of various planes?

The Pact Primeval was no such thing; it was a treaty between gods and Asmodeus, if the accounts are true. Zaphkiel et al have nothing to do with it.

There are no known treaties of this nature. It is possible that Primus has made treaties with other planars, but if so, it has not been documented.


What can you tell us about Baalphegor and Lilith?

Lilith is a unique baatezu, a former consort of Moloch and now consort (with Baftis) of Baalzebul. One of the comeliest of devilkind, Lilith goes about clad only in a veil of pure darkness (making her look not unlike Pale Night) and bearing her vicious whip. Lilith is one of the few consorts to maintain a following on the Prime Material Plane, where she is served by a great many witches. This service makes her quite valuable to Baalzebul.

Nonetheless, Lilith has come to hate her new liege; his abuses and rages have pushed her beyond the limit, and in his deformed state he makes Jabba the Hutt look like a prize.

As for Baalphegor...

[Flickerdart]

The Civic Festhall, the Sensate headquarters, has (had) a massive archive of magically stored experiences. Boccob's realm on the Outlands, the Library of Lore, is obviously quite extensive, though you'll need to be in good standing with the Lord of All Magic to use it. Several other gods of knowledge have large stores of information; one of the other major examples would be Deneir's realm, the Library of All Knowledge. Thoth's Estate contains a library, but it's locked within a massive crypt and Thoth rarely extends invites.

Asmodeus and Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE&t=0m45s) both have massive private libraries; Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE&t=0m45s)'s may be the largest in the Lower Planes.

The easiest one to get to may be the Great Library, also known as the Lady's Library, located in Sigil. It's a massive tower maintained by the dabus, and costs are a nominal 1 gp per day. The college in Tradegate has a serviceable library, though not a great one. Rumors persist of a vast interplanar library, the Library of Alexandria, immense and labyrinthine and containing, somewhere, a copy of every tome ever penned. This library is said to have connections to all others, but finding it, let alone navigating it, would be a Herculean task, and the Library does not care for its collection.

The most obscure of the libraries may be Timaresh, a concealed repository once guarded by a vanished ancient race of neutrality. It may now be in the hands of the rilmani, or it may have slipped away with those who came before.
What about the Catalogues of Enlightenment?

[Answerer]

I also got the impression that Ilsensine itself is, on some level, a sort of mobile/organic/sentient/divine library. Or, at least, repository of knowledge, since I'm not sure you could uh, check anything out.

The Aboleths as a race might also be worth mentioning by the same token.

On those notes, a question about Aboleth's fear of the Mind Flayers: it seems odd to me that, barring knowledge of how it actually happened, the Illithids should seem unique to the Aboleths. After all, don't gods create favored races of this sort all the time, and aren't plenty of them secretive enough to prevent any Aboleth from learning of them until they're ready to go out and uh, eat brains?

Basically, how can Aboleths categorically eliminate divine shenanigans and thus generate that fear of the unknown that comes up with the Illithids?

[Eldan]

I think the Illumian's big city on the Plane of Shadow has a famous library as well.

[Fable Wright]

On those notes, a question about Aboleth's fear of the Mind Flayers: it seems odd to me that, barring knowledge of how it actually happened, the Illithids should seem unique to the Aboleths. After all, don't gods create favored races of this sort all the time, and aren't plenty of them secretive enough to prevent any Aboleth from learning of them until they're ready to go out and uh, eat brains?

Basically, how can Aboleths categorically eliminate divine shenanigans and thus generate that fear of the unknown that comes up with the Illithids?
The mortal races didn't just appear out of thin air with a highly developed culture and powerful, experienced mages and technology that the Aboleths hadn't seen before. Aboleths were there at mortal races' conceptions, and enslaved, according to Lords of Madness, the young races, as they were a highly developed race when the first Humans were hunter-gatherers. The Illithids came out of nowhere by means that the Aboleths cannot figure out, powerful telepaths, all of them, with highly developed technology and culture that the Aboleths had never seen before. A few new humans? That's an oddity, but they're not a threat and the Aboleths can watch them as they develop into a full-fledged race. The Illithids? Not so much.

[ShadowFireLance]

I also got the impression that Ilsensine itself is, on some level, a sort of mobile/organic/sentient/divine library. Or, at least, repository of knowledge, since I'm not sure you could uh, check anything out.

The Aboleths as a race might also be worth mentioning by the same token.

On those notes, a question about Aboleth's fear of the Mind Flayers: it seems odd to me that, barring knowledge of how it actually happened, the Illithids should seem unique to the Aboleths. After all, don't gods create favored races of this sort all the time, and aren't plenty of them secretive enough to prevent any Aboleth from learning of them until they're ready to go out and uh, eat brains?

Basically, how can Aboleths categorically eliminate divine shenanigans and thus generate that fear of the unknown that comes up with the Illithids?


Huh? When have Aboleth been afraid of Mind Flayer?

[AuraTwilight]

Since always; when your species remembers everything since the damn of time, super-psionic empires suddenly appearing overnight with more power than you previously thought imaginable is kiiiind of worrying.

[afroakuma]

On those notes, a question about Aboleth's fear of the Mind Flayers: it seems odd to me that, barring knowledge of how it actually happened, the Illithids should seem unique to the Aboleths. After all, don't gods create favored races of this sort all the time, and aren't plenty of them secretive enough to prevent any Aboleth from learning of them until they're ready to go out and uh, eat brains?

No, actually; favored races still have to exist in a form to provide worship, and that tends to leave a trail that aboleths can notice. When it comes to scale, you don't surprise aboleths with anything on the Material Plane. They know things.


Basically, how can Aboleths categorically eliminate divine shenanigans and thus generate that fear of the unknown that comes up with the Illithids?

Aboleths have this tendency to predate, ahh, gods. "Divine shenanigans" assumes that they didn't spot a god cropping up. The fact that the illithids arrived with such power and force as to suggest an age on par with that of the aboleths themselves, not to mention an impossibly alien nature, is what scares them. They don't make sense under any logic the aboleths can conceive of. And they shouldn't; what the illithids did to bring themselves back to the past was ludicrous in the extreme, a cosmic-level Hail Mary.

It doesn't help that aboleths spotted illithids before Ilsensine hit the cosmic radar. They've really never seen that before. They don't like surprises, and even if they were willing to chalk something up to divine shenanigans, it wouldn't make them any more comfortable, since it would mean those foolish powers have found ways to hide things from the mighty minds of the aboleths.

[Clistenes]

Huh? When have Aboleth been afraid of Mind Flayer?

Lords of Madness sourcebook. The Minflayers come from the future, so the Aboleths, who have seen the rising of all the other races AND of the exemplars of every alignment AND of the gods themselves are freaked because they have no idea were those guys came from.

You would think that by now an Aboleth would have eaten a Minflayed and extracted the knowledge from it, or used enchantments on one of them or turned one of them into an undead and ordered him to tell the truth, or created a Simulacrum of a Mindflayer and interrogated it...Maybe the Mindflayers themselves don't remember where (when) they came from?

[Answerer]

Maybe the Mindflayers themselves don't remember where (when) they came from?
Considering the way the Elder Brains basically keep most secrets to themselves, even from the illithids, that seems entirely possible. An aboleth getting its tentacles on an Elder Brain seems less likely.

[Proud Tortoise]

But it has been thousands of years they've lived on the same worlds. All it would take is for one cavern to flood, elder brains being pretty much immobile and all...

[Clistenes]

But it has been thousands of years they've lived on the same worlds. All it would take is for one cavern to flood, elder brains being pretty much immobile and all...

I dunno...those are Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 26 super-geniuses with the powers of a 20th level psion or sorcerer and more...they must have contingencies for that. Maybe there is a even a secret refuge where they can teleport when their colonies have been decimated and they have to escape.

I think it would take an epic party with mental stats above even those of an Elder Brain to capture one.

[afroakuma]

You would think that by now an Aboleth would have eaten a Minflayed and extracted the knowledge from it, or used enchantments on one of them or turned one of them into an undead and ordered him to tell the truth, or created a Simulacrum of a Mindflayer and interrogated it...Maybe the Mindflayers themselves don't remember where (when) they came from?

The aboleths didn't really have access to a serviceable illithid when all was said and done; the illithids had themselves a most royally crappy time since arriving in the past, and the trip itself was not optimal.


Considering the way the Elder Brains basically keep most secrets to themselves, even from the illithids, that seems entirely possible. An aboleth getting its tentacles on an Elder Brain seems less likely.

The elder brains from the future were sacrificed to cause the psionic maelstrom that catapulted the illithids to the past. They're not available for comment either. :smalltongue:

[Proud Tortoise]

I dunno...those are Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 26 super-geniuses with the powers of a 20th level psion or sorcerer and more...they must have contingencies for that. Maybe there is a even a secret refuge where they can teleport when their colonies have been decimated and they have to escape.

I think it would take an epic party with mental stats above even those of an Elder Brain to capture one.

But this isn't humans vs. illithids, it's aboleths vs. illithids. If the aboleths enslaved a mage, who infiltrated the cavern and cast antimagic zone or dimensional anchor, then the aboleths flooded the caverns...

[Clistenes]

But this isn't humans vs. illithids, it's aboleths vs. illithids. If the aboleths enslaved a mage, who infiltrated the cavern and cast antimagic zone or dimensional anchor, then the aboleths flooded the caverns...

That mage would have to reach the Elder Brain first. As i said, Int 28 and Wis 25, and that's your average Elder Brain.
The average Aboleth has Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 17, and even a Wizard 10 Aboleth would be Int 20, Wis 16, Cha 14. The smartest Aboleth I'm aware of is Iltharshub, an Aboleth wizard 13/savant aboleth 2 with Int 29, Wis 16, Cha 14. Iltharshub rivals an Elder Brain's intelligence, but his Wisdom is far, far below, so he would probably understimate his oponent.

[Proud Tortoise]

That mage would have to reach the Elder Brain first. As i said, Int 28 and Wis 25, and that's your average Elder Brain.
The average Aboleth has Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 17, and even a Wizard 10 Aboleth would be Int 20, Wis 16, Cha 14. The smartest Aboleth I'm aware of is Iltharshub, an Aboleth wizard 13/savant aboleth 2 with Int 29, Wis 16, Cha 14. Iltharshub rivals an Elder Brain's intelligence, but his Wisdom is far, far below, so he would probably understimate his oponent.

Oh, I'm sure that over the course of thousands or tens of thousands of years there have been some really epic aboleths. And some really weak Elder Brains, too. What if an aboleth agent was a pixie sorcerer or some other really small race, and they had some help burrowing into the walls nearby the brain. Then the wizard casts dimensional anchor, antimagic field, or some thing like that. Then the aboleths blow a hole in one of the higher tunnels, let the water come pouring in, and take the the Elder Brain by surprise?

[Clistenes]

Oh, I'm sure that over the course of thousands or tens of thousands of years there have been some really epic aboleths. And some really weak Elder Brains, too. What if an aboleth agent was a pixie sorcerer or some other really small race, and they had some help burrowing into the walls nearby the brain. Then the wizard casts dimensional anchor, antimagic field, or some thing like that. Then the aboleths blow a hole in one of the higher tunnels, let the water come pouring in, and take the the Elder Brain by surprise?

I dunno. An Epic Aboleth with astronomic mental stats could probably do it, but an Elder Brain would probably have countermeasures for your pixie attack.

[Proud Tortoise]

Level 20 pixie mage? That's cast haste on the burrower? Or what if the mage just teleported straight to the brain and cast dimensional anchor on it? If the illithids had a non-teleportation zone in the area, they wouldn't be able to get the brain out in any case.

...Maybe I should run a campaign where the players are aboleths trying to gain information about illithids...

[Flickerdart]

Then the aboleths blow a hole in one of the higher tunnels, let the water come pouring in, and take the the Elder Brain by surprise?
Psionic teleport. Good job, you flooded an empty cavern.

[Proud Tortoise]

Psionic teleport. Good job, you flooded an empty cavern.

No no no, you cast dimensional anchor first.

[Flickerdart]

No no no, you cast dimensional anchor first.
Dispel Psionics, then Psionic Teleport. Good job, you flooded an empty cavern.

[ShadowFireLance]

Dispel Psionics, then Psionic Teleport. Good job, you flooded an empty cavern.

Why do i have a feeling this should get moved before Afro Eats Boots you guys from his thread?

Anywho, a Question:

Who is the most well known Creature in the planes, Barring Creatures of Deific Power levels.
(Such as, The Elemental lords, gods, Demon Lords, Arch Devils, Etc)

[Flickerdart]

Who is the most well known Creature in the planes, Barring Creatures of Deific Power levels.
(Such as, The Elemental lords, gods, Demon Lords, Arch Devils, Etc)
Whichever one of them has the fewest hit dice, because Knowledge skills are a little silly like that.

[Lord_Gareth]

Why do i have a feeling this should get moved before Afro Eats Boots you guys from his thread?

Anywho, a Question:

Who is the most well known Creature in the planes, Barring Creatures of Deific Power levels.
(Such as, The Elemental lords, gods, Demon Lords, Arch Devils, Etc)

I don't know for sure, but I do know that the demon lord (incidentally, the term you wanted was Demon Prince, whole different matter there) known as Dalmosh of the Infinite Maws is so famous that the knowledge of how to summon him is commonplace.

[ShadowFireLance]

I don't know for sure, but I do know that the demon lord (incidentally, the term you wanted was Demon Prince, whole different matter there) known as Dalmosh of the Infinite Maws is so famous that the knowledge of how to summon him is commonplace.

Huh, That's odd, Never heard of him..:smallconfused: is he 3.X?

[Lord_Gareth]

Huh, That's odd, Never heard of him..:smallconfused: is he 3.X?

Monster Manual V, my friend.

[Jigokuro]

First off: Thanks, for both answering my Qs and doing this in general; it seems like you're putting a huge amount of effort into this for no to tangible reward and all I can say is that- Thanks!:smallredface:
Now more questions.
1) Is there more info on Dalmosh or his gullet's contents than what is in MMV? I read that and he seems really interesting. If not then a yes/no of 'since it doesn't say otherwise, his gullet can be Plane Shifted out of easily, right?' and an opinion on 'would there be an attuned metal there to make a fork out of for returning without being eaten?'
2) Are Owlbears ever given interesting expansion to their lore, 'culture,' or origins? They have become a fairly iconic monster, I think, and I'd like to have them be more than just a random encounter. Sadly wikipedia just says "Dun'no; a wizard did it, probably." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owlbear#Concept) That wizard might be Thessalar, which is fairly cool I guess, but I'm hoping you know something wikipedia doesn't (if anyone does, it's you :smallamused:)
3) Do true dragons (esp. those living outside the PMP) view extraplanar dragons differently than each other and if so how? Specifically those that are even more exemplary of an ideal than themselves like Radiant>Gold or Tarterian>Black (speaking from memory so those comparisons might be off).
4) Is there any info on 'The Cat Lord' who is mentioned in passing as the deific entity that Tibbits generally revere? I doubt it, as they were dragmag to start with, but its worth an ask.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, on the last one:

I believe the Cat Lord is a Greyhawk NPC/Minor Diety. IIRC, there are stats for him and some of his signature items in the Epic Level Handbook.

[Eldan]

The Cat Lord is one of the Animal Lords of the Beastlands. Generally, there is one for every kind of prime material animal. He (or she, looking at the picture)'s statted up in the Planescape lords, and tends to be the most well known of them.

[Arcanist]

The Origin of Psionics in D&D as a whole?

[Chilingsworth]

Well, not sure if we're talking about the same cat lord, but there is an NPC by that name statted out on Pg 305-6 of the Epic Level Handbook, the first entry in the "Epic NPCs of Greyhawk" section. He's described as a planeswalking 37th level rogue outsider with the ability to shift between human, cat, and hybrid forms. He's also stated to be of TN alignment and to really only care about felines. A sidebar suggests options for using him as a diety. Also, his major artifact "Ring of the Cat Lord" is described.

[Togo]

The Abyss is part of a transdimensional creature. There are two other such creatures. Does anyone know what or where they are?

[afroakuma]

Who is the most well known Creature in the planes, Barring Creatures of Deific Power levels.
(Such as, The Elemental lords, gods, Demon Lords, Arch Devils, Etc)

And you were afraid I'd kill the others.

Are you excluding those beings in brackets?


First off: Thanks, for both answering my Qs and doing this in general; it seems like you're putting a huge amount of effort into this for no to tangible reward and all I can say is that- Thanks!:smallredface:

Oh no need to thank me, I'm enjoying this.


1) Is there more info on Dalmosh or his gullet's contents than what is in MMV? I read that and he seems really interesting. If not then a yes/no of 'since it doesn't say otherwise, his gullet can be Plane Shifted out of easily, right?' and an opinion on 'would there be an attuned metal there to make a fork out of for returning without being eaten?'

There isn't, and the metal for the destination is required, not the departure point, but you're not likely to be able to make a serviceable tuning fork from within his gullet if you don't have one already.


2) Are Owlbears ever given interesting expansion to their lore, 'culture,' or origins? They have become a fairly iconic monster, I think, and I'd like to have them be more than just a random encounter. Sadly wikipedia just says "Dun'no; a wizard did it, probably." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owlbear#Concept) That wizard might be Thessalar, which is fairly cool I guess, but I'm hoping you know something wikipedia doesn't (if anyone does, it's you :smallamused:)

Well, there's plenty to speak of regarding their biology; they're too bestial to have "culture," though, and their origins are pretty murky beyond "a wizard did it and regretted it pretty quickly." Owlbears are one of the most successful of wizardly ineptitudes, thriving in many climates via alterations to a base stock that's remained quite stable and consistent. It definitely wasn't Thessalar who created them; he just likes to take credit for things.


3) Do true dragons (esp. those living outside the PMP) view extraplanar dragons differently than each other and if so how? Specifically those that are even more exemplary of an ideal than themselves like Radiant>Gold or Tarterian>Black (speaking from memory so those comparisons might be off).

True dragons that are aware of palanr dragons consider them to be "of a different kind;" that is, not in the same order as dragonkind but rather mirrors of their own existence glorified on the Planes. None consider planar dragons "better" than themselves.


4) Is there any info on 'The Cat Lord' who is mentioned in passing as the deific entity that Tibbits generally revere? I doubt it, as they were dragmag to start with, but its worth an ask.

As mentioned above, the cat lord is one of the elite outsiders of the Beastlands, the humanoid shapechanger who on that plane is patron of all cats. Similar animal lords exist for other beasts.


The Origin of Psionics in D&D as a whole?

Unknown, as is the origin of magic, so don't try that one either. There was a theory that psionics might be an artifact of Ilsensine casting his powerful mind along the timestream from the future, but it's weak and not verifiable.


The Abyss is part of a transdimensional creature.

:smallconfused: Clarify?

[Proud Tortoise]

The Abyss is part of a transdimensional creature. There are two other such creatures. Does anyone know what or where they are?

Yes. All the other planes. (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/soma.html):smallconfused:

[Menteith]

Is anyone (mortal, outsider, or anything else) theoretically capable of becoming a deity?

What mechanisms can cause ascension?

[Jigokuro]

Oh no need to thank me, I'm enjoying this.

And you were afraid I'd kill the others.
You sure about that? :smalltongue:


There isn't, and the metal for the destination is required, not the departure point, but you're not likely to be able to make a serviceable tuning fork from within his gullet if you don't have one already.

I meant get material there to be able to return with later. As in: get eaten, grab attuned material, plane shift to safety with a fork you already have, create a fork for shifting to the gullet, go back...
I hadn't thought of what next or why you'd want to yet, though I guess at the least you could sell escape to the trapped for any price and freely collect any good loot he eats. It is a fairly defensible location too.


New Q: How do species that are inherently extremely powerful fit into planar politics. I mean powerful and intelligent, mindless destroyers fit at 'avoid them' but things like prismatic dragons that are hatched already int 20. Just an average adult prismatic is significantly stronger than any non-unique planar denizen. Are all such creatures just written off as not likely to get off their butts?

[Arcanist]

Unknown, as is the origin of magic, so don't try that one either.

Am I really that predictable? :smallfrown:


There was a theory that psionics might be an artifact of Ilsensine casting his powerful mind along the timestream from the future, but it's weak and not verifiable.

That is really strange... Why would an Illithid Deity grant none Illithid's super powers? :smallconfused:

[Answerer]

I seem to recall a rare few Clerics of Ilsensine among the Mind Flayers. Most of which are probably Psychic Theurges anyway.

[ShadowFireLance]

Excluding the ones in the brackets, And such, As in, Anything Near, or above a Demigod's Status is not game for my question.
(Now, I would think it would be something like...a powerful mortal? Iggiwilv?)

[Xervous]

So there's all these creatures and beings out there with DR/XYZ, and this thread covered why certain metals aren't used in planar currency. I've been wondering what are the effects if a creature simply comes into contact with something that overcomes its DR? I'm assuming the physical reaction varies by what type of thing overcomes the DR...

For silver, cold iron, good, evil: is it a "IT BURNS US"...?
DR/Magic, DR/Adamantine: nothing special...

are there any enumerated rules for instances of the first category dealing damage to specific subjects who come into contact with it? (If not, what would be some reasonable numbers?)

[Kane0]

So there's all these creatures and beings out there with DR/XYZ, and this thread covered why certain metals aren't used in planar currency. I've been wondering what are the effects if a creature simply comes into contact with something that overcomes its DR? I'm assuming the physical reaction varies by what type of thing overcomes the DR...


Well, on the Planes Silver coins are called 'stingers' because they do exactly that when held by most fiends. From there it wouldn't be unbelievable to say that being in contact with a material that breaks your DR is uncomfortalble and in some cases mildly painful, but not something that will cause injury just by touching it.

[afroakuma]

Is anyone (mortal, outsider, or anything else) theoretically capable of becoming a deity?

In theory, yes. In practice, divine metaphysics are no science.


What mechanisms can cause ascension?

If it's not going to work then it's not going to work, that's the first thing to note. One of the chiefest methods of acquiring divinity, that of stealing it from another in some way, is also a really good way to, uh, explode and die. (PCs usually get away with it though). The more famous method, which has less potential for ludicrous gibs (read: none) is to accrue large amounts of personal worship and belief on the Material Plane. That's nowhere near as easy as it sounds. There are other obscure ways to make it happen, but those are the big two.

It helps to have a patron, a deity willing to sponsor you for godhood. You'll still need to find some untapped divine potential to get your foot in the door, but a patron helps cover the paperwork, so to speak.


I meant get material there to be able to return with later. As in: get eaten, grab attuned material, plane shift to safety with a fork you already have, create a fork for shifting to the gullet, go back...
I hadn't thought of what next or why you'd want to yet, though I guess at the least you could sell escape to the trapped for any price and freely collect any good loot he eats. It is a fairly defensible location too.


There's no guarantee that anything from inside Dalmosh's gullet is attuned to there. You'd have an easier time doing, uh, not that.


New Q: How do species that are inherently extremely powerful fit into planar politics. I mean powerful and intelligent, mindless destroyers fit at 'avoid them' but things like prismatic dragons that are hatched already int 20. Just an average adult prismatic is significantly stronger than any non-unique planar denizen. Are all such creatures just written off as not likely to get off their butts?

They tend not to. They're very rare and reside in places where other things, to put not too fine a point on it, do not. Prismatic dragons and other entities of their ilk are found in far corners of the multiverse. The other issue to consider is that most "powerful species" sssssssuck (cf. hecatoncheires). Gods roll their eyes at the numbers epic monsters are swinging around; even the weakest demon prince has mental control over an infinite landscape (demon lord, not so much). The appearance of a being of great power is like a large-scale disaster; you let it happen, patch up and move on.


That is really strange... Why would an Illithid Deity grant none Illithid's super powers? :smallconfused:

I told you, it's a rumor, and a stupid one.


Excluding the ones in the brackets, And such, As in, Anything Near, or above a Demigod's Status is not game for my question.
(Now, I would think it would be something like...a powerful mortal? Iggiwilv?)

In that case, I refuse to answer on the grounds that I'm not interested in making up an answer. I told you that questions like this suck. "The most X" and "the most Y" aren't defined on the Planes, because it's not a relevant thing.


So there's all these creatures and beings out there with DR/XYZ, and this thread covered why certain metals aren't used in planar currency. I've been wondering what are the effects if a creature simply comes into contact with something that overcomes its DR? I'm assuming the physical reaction varies by what type of thing overcomes the DR...

For silver, cold iron, good, evil: is it a "IT BURNS US"...?
DR/Magic, DR/Adamantine: nothing special...

are there any enumerated rules for instances of the first category dealing damage to specific subjects who come into contact with it? (If not, what would be some reasonable numbers?)

There are not; one easy rule would be to treat improvised weapons made of a sufficient quantity of the metal in question as exactly that (meaning that slinging a coin at a baatezu will cut through its DR). In general, though, contact with DR-piercing substances is more painful than damaging, resulting in a bit of discomfort and some discernible reaction (steaming flesh from contact with holiness, fuming darkening stains from contact with unholiness, etc.) which isn't a matter for damage; you might want to make a ruling about Will saves in such a circumstance to avoid recoiling/dropping the offending object. If you want to go with damage, I'd suggest that for passive contact you employ subdual damage rather than lethal.

[ShadowFireLance]

Ah, Okay then..

Much better question:
Do Dragons exsist in the Beastlands/Wildlands?

[123456789blaaa]

Afro, you said previously that:


Lolth has a special role among the preeminent lords of the Abyss, as she's one of their number in addition to being a goddess ("Demon Queen of Spiders"). As the only deity in the "gang," she's got special influence and a unique role in Abyssal politics, one that she'd start to feel crowded out of if there was suddenly a new god in town.

But isn't Doresain also a deity in the "gang"?

[Menteith]

Is there any mortal or mortal organization which is respected or acknowledged by beings of power?

Is there any mortal organization which deals with protecting the Prime Material or pushes for the Prime's interest in planar matters?

[Proud Tortoise]

Ah, Okay then..

Much better question:
Do Dragons exsist in the Beastlands/Wildlands?

Well, certainly some do. After all, the River Oceanus runs through the plane, and there are dragons (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/5588942/Oceanus%20Dragon) living in that. Also, I should think that certain oriental dragons live there...

[Lord_Gareth]

Afro, you said previously that:



But isn't Doresain also a deity in the "gang"?

He's not one of the major demon princes and in point of fact spent a lot of years enslaved to Yeenoghu, himself a pathetic wretch low on the totem pole.

[Fable Wright]

How many extraplanar beings can be summoned without the use of spell slots to the material plane? Dalmosh and Pazuzu are the only two that spring to mind for me...

[Proud Tortoise]

In the DMGII there's a section on "invocations", and you can summon the Dweller on the Threshold with only a doorway and a lot of wax, I think.

[afroakuma]

Ah, Okay then..

Much better question:
Do Dragons exsist in the Beastlands/Wildlands?

The Beastlands have a native type of dragon called, unsurprisingly, the beast dragon. A few of the more common dragon types may also have homes on the Beastlands.


But isn't Doresain also a deity in the "gang"?

Nope.


Is there any mortal or mortal organization which is respected or acknowledged by beings of power?

Clarify.


Is there any mortal organization which deals with protecting the Prime Material

Well sure. Plenty of causes try to insulate the Prime from planar troubles (Eberron alone has a few) and planar beings (especially fiends). Depends on your world, obviously. Paladins are always out to kick some Lower Planar butts out of their worlds.


or pushes for the Prime's interest in planar matters?

Not really. There are organizations that have a presence on a single given world, but the notion of organizing something across the Prime is basically unheard of.


How many extraplanar beings can be summoned without the use of spell slots to the material plane? Dalmosh and Pazuzu are the only two that spring to mind for me...

Pretty much any, if you come up with a workable ritual and they're interested. I can't think of any others for whom a conventional ritual has been established, though.


Baalphegor

I want to address this now that I've had time to gather extensive research together. This one was not fun; there's a massive fanon contaminant from seven years ago that's managed to get spread across the web. Nonetheless, here we go:

There are many famous and scary names associated with the Nine Hells of Baator, and the scariest of all might actually be that of a short, childlike princess of Hell who lurks in the shadow of the Lord of No Mercy.

Baalphegor is consort to Mephistopheles, ostensibly by order of Asmodeus (yes, he's that lawful; he decides who gets which consort). Standing about 5'6", with the looks of a slender young human female (albeit with small, fine wings and cinnamon-colored skin), Baalphegor could easily be passed over in terms of looks when standing next to the likes of her lord's dukes or the Lord of the Eighth himself (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HugeGuyTinyGirl) (all nine feet and massive overwhelming darkness of him). Don't let the fiendish HSOWA (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotSkittyOnWailordAction) distract you, though; Baalphegor is mysterious, inscrutable and has the respect of Asmodeus himself. She's been around for some time; a skilled and respected diplomat, she also personally invented many of the methods and magics that Hell continues to use as its standards to date. Baalphegor's strange affection for Mephistopheles - assuming that's what it is, and not just a scheme of some sort - provides him direct protection from Asmodeus.

Oh yes, and she's not provably a baatezu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OutsideContextVillain).

So to sum up, Baalphegor is a shadowy mystery who personally originated the core methods and powers used by an entire race of fiends, gives Asmodeus pause, refuses to bind herself to any commitment (and this is Hell, devils rope each other into crap all the time), is provably behind Mephistopheles' quest for hellfire, is considered one of the Lord Below's greatest assets despite keeping his greatest personal enemy on Malsheem's doorstep, and is quite possibly an ancient Baatorian.

Sleep tight kids.

[Proud Tortoise]

The Beastlands have a native type of dragon called, unsurprisingly, the beast dragon. A few of the more common dragon types may also have homes on the Beastlands.


Don't most planes have their own variety of dragon? (Such as the gloom dragon or the radiance dragon.) From which sourcebook do those planar dragons come?

[Answerer]

Mephistopheles' quest for hellfire
And what is Mephistopheles's quest for hellfire exactly?


she's not provably a baatezu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OutsideContextVillain).
Heh, so uh, prove it.

[ShadowFireLance]

Well, That..was a impressive post, Afro...Now I want to use her...:smallcool:(Not in that way, People)

d'oh, Should have remebred my Planar Dragons...>.<

Question:
I'm writing something with the Planescape setting, and want to make sure I've got the correct planes down, Do you happen to have a list of all of them handy?


Don't most planes have their own variety of dragon? (Such as the gloom dragon or the radiance dragon.) From which sourcebook do those planar dragons come?

The Gloom comes from Dragon 344, The Radiance come from Draconomicon, The Axial, Beast, Adamantine, Arboreal, and Concordant Dragon come from Dragon #321.

[Proud Tortoise]

Well, That..was a impressive post, Afro...Now I want to use her...:smallcool:(Not in that way, People)

d'oh, Should have remebred my Planar Dragons...>.<

Question:
I'm writing something with the Planescape setting, and want to make sure I've got the correct planes down, Do you happen to have a list of all of them handy?

Reciting from memory:
Prime Material plane
Inner planes

Fire
Water
Air
Earth
Positive energy
Negative energy
Salt
Ash
Dust
Vacuum
Mineral
Lightning
Steam
Radiance

And possibly:

Crystal
Frost
Sparks
Fumes
Clay
Silt
Obsidian
Pumice

Outer Planes:

Ysgard
Limbo

Pandemonium
Abyss
Carceri
Hades
Gehenna
Baator
Acheron
Mechanus
Arcadia
Mount Celestia
Bytopia
Elysium
Beastlands
Arborea
Outlands


Also assorted demiplanes, transitional planes, et. al.

[Kane0]

Sleep tight kids.

That made my day :smallamused:

Speaking of Hellfire, are there any neat sources about it floating around? I have the Fiendish Codex II, but was wondering if there was more than that.

[ShadowFireLance]

Reciting from memory:
Prime Material plane
Inner planes

Fire
Water
Air
Earth
Positive energy
Negative energy
Salt
Ash
Dust
Vacuum
Mineral
Lightning
Steam
Radiance

And possibly:

Crystal
Frost
Sparks
Fumes
Clay
Silt
Obsidian
Pumice

Outer Planes:

Ysgard
Limbo

Pandemonium
Abyss
Carceri
Hades
Gehenna
Baator
Acheron
Mechanus
Arcadia
Mount Celestia
Bytopia
Elysium
Beastlands
Arborea
Outlands


Also assorted demiplanes, transitional planes, et. al.


Okay then, The ones I used are in, Good...

[Menteith]

Clarify.

My question was geared toward understanding what, if any, power Primes as a faction wielded off their plane. You have successfully answered my question with your other responses.

Who is (was?) Gith, and what is their status? As a related question, how powerful is Vlaakith?

[afroakuma]

Don't most planes have their own variety of dragon? (Such as the gloom dragon or the radiance dragon.) From which sourcebook do those planar dragons come?

Aye. They're mostly from Dragon magazine; the rest are from the Planar Handbook, the Draconomicon, and (technically) the Monster Manual II. Arcadia is the only plane without one. (Talking Outer Planes here, mind. Don't ask about the rest.)


And what is Mephistopheles's quest for hellfire exactly?

Mephistopheles is working to harness a powerful force known as hellfire, which he hopes will give him the edge in future confrontations with Baalzebul and (eventually) Asmodeus.


Heh, so uh, prove it.

Ehh, I could make a case, but that wouldn't be fun. And it would be a case, not strict proof.

Hellfire was originally mentioned in the Book of Vile Darkness, where it's also a spell. There's an adventure featuring Mephisto's followers in Dungeon #140.

[Jigokuro]

Aye. They're mostly from Dragon magazine; the rest are from the Planar Handbook-

Where in? There is no mention of dragons in the index/chapter on creatures.

[Eldan]

My question was geared toward understanding what, if any, power Primes as a faction wielded off their plane. You have successfully answered my question with your other responses.

Who is (was?) Gith, and what is their status? As a related question, how powerful is Vlaakith?

That takes some time to explain. It concerns the origins of the Githzerai and Githyanki races and their involvement and possible creation by the Illithids.

Gith was or is the leader of the slave rebellion against the first illithid empire. She discovered the secret of forging metal and lead the slaves across the planes and worlds of the empire, slaying them all.

In the final battle, however, she was betrayed by her lieutenant, Zerthimon, who wanted to end all the bloodshed and violence to prevent the race to become even worse than the Illithids in their quest for vengeance. He took half the slaves away to Limbo and founded the Githzerai race.

The rest became the Githyanki, still dedicated to their vengeance.

Gith herself vanished into the Hells and was never heard from again, though it is said that she made a pact of some kind with Tiamat in exchange for the service of all red dragons to the Githyanki. Her final fate is not known.

Rumour claims that Vlaakith sold her out to become the first queen of the githyanki, with Gith herself gone.

There's a version, written up as Zerthimon's own religious text from Planescape: Torment here. The Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon. (http://www.planewalker.com/050908/unbroken-circle-zerthimon)

[afroakuma]

Where in? Their in no mention of dragons in the index/chapter on creatures.

My bad; should have gone and checked the list before answering. They're mostly in Dragon, with a few in the Draconomicon and the holdout (sorta) being in the MMII.


As a related question, how powerful is Vlaakith?

25th level wizardess, lich, owns two unique artifacts.

[Lord_Gareth]

If planes can't truly be destroyed, what's the "victory condition" on a planar war or invasion (such as, say, the Blood War)?

[Pelfaid]

This has been an awesome way to spend hours of my time, thanks for answering all the prior questions. And now for mine :smallsmile:

1) Can you expand on the Hellbred some? I get that they are the warped souls of those who aren't evil but aren't good enough yet. But how do they then get back into the adventuring mold? I hope that makes sense and conjecture is welcome.
2) Which one of the Dukes of Hell or Lords of the Nine would contract out a hit on a rival, and which rival? And how would Asmodeus react to this?
3) Are Demon Princes, Lords of the Nine, Dukes of Hell and Demon Lords allowed in Sigil?

[Kane0]

2) Which one of the Dukes of Hell or Lords of the Nine would contract out a hit on a rival, and which rival? And how would Asmodeus react to this?


All of them, on any of them :smallamused:. Some have alliances but they are alliances of convenience, every Duke of Hell is prepared to backstab any other at any given time.
It's just a matter of if the hitman can do it (probably not), if the hitman can get away with it (probably not) and most importantly what the hitman stands to gain from it (one would hope the position he just opened, thus not really solving the problem for his employer at all)
Exception: Asmodeus. See: The Reckoning.

Asmodeus' reaction is harder to gauge. He is most likely (like 99%) to know about it, and if he knows about it he wont let it happen unless he wants it to. On the other hand, if he does know and it doesn't go to plan (or he simply dosen't know) he would likely come down hard on the one disrupting his status quo (subtly or overtly, depends on the circumstances).

[Fable Wright]

Are there any hitmen who have taken out Demon Lords or Lords of Nine and gotten away with it, that haven't immediately ascended to fill the position they opened up?

[123456789blaaa]

What is a witch (in dnd fluff not RL obviously)?

[Fable Wright]

What is a witch (in dnd fluff not RL obviously)?

Technically? A female Warlock.

[Clistenes]

Technically? A female Warlock.

Or a variant sorcerer (in 3.5)

[123456789blaaa]

Technically? A female Warlock.

Could you tell me your source?

[JaronK]

Could you tell me your source?

The source is the English language. "Warlock" and "Witch" are just a male and female version, like "Husband" and "Wife".

But in D&D, it's a class in the DMG that's an example of making your own classes.

JaronK

[123456789blaaa]

The source is the English language. "Warlock" and "Witch" are just a male and female version, like "Husband" and "Wife".

But in D&D, it's a class in the DMG that's an example of making your own classes.

JaronK

I know. I asked because I assumed he was talking about dnd fluff considering I specified I did not want the RL meaning.

I know that too but it doesn't make sense since the witch class isn't canon. There are specific references to witches scattered throughout the editions (like the once about witches worshipping the consort of the Lord of Flies).

[Answerer]

I'm reasonably certain that "witch" means exactly in D&D what it means elsewhere: a magic-user, usually female, frequently associated with curses or hexes, but not necessarily.

There are several "Witches" of this that or the other thing, which refer to specific organizations that use the term for their members. The Hathran of Rashemi in Faerûn are frequently called Witches, for example.

But the term itself is fairly generic, loosely associated with a few connotations that do not always apply, and specific uses of it are in relation to a particular person or organization, not a part of the general usage of the term.

In other words, it's either too general to define more than already has, or too specific to apply a given usage to other usages. The Hathran are a certain type of Witch, but other Witches are not necessarily Hathran or anything like them. Any given witch can be assumed to be a magic-user, and it's probably a safe bet that the witch is female. Anything beyond that only comes into play if you refer to a certain sort of witch, like the Hathran.

[Proud Tortoise]

3) Are Demon Princes, Lords of the Nine, Dukes of Hell and Demon Lords allowed in Sigil?

From what I understand, the most powerful non-deities are not allowed in Sigil either... And I doubt they would go anyway, since the Lady of Pain is a bit of an unknown...

[afroakuma]

If planes can't truly be destroyed, what's the "victory condition" on a planar war or invasion (such as, say, the Blood War)?

Crushing enemies, seeing them driven before you, hearing the lamentations of their - well, no, not that last one. Basically it would be that point where the enemy's very way of being has been overtaken by you, and there is a near-zero probability that they will ever again whelm forces enough to push against your hegemony.


1) Can you expand on the Hellbred some? I get that they are the warped souls of those who aren't evil but aren't good enough yet. But how do they then get back into the adventuring mold? I hope that makes sense and conjecture is welcome.

Hellbred seek to accomplish truly heroic deeds in order to escape the hold of Hell and earn a place in the Upper Planes. That seems to me to be an excellent incentive for jumping right into adventure.


2) Which one of the Dukes of Hell or Lords of the Nine would contract out a hit on a rival, and which rival? And how would Asmodeus react to this?

Oh, most of them. Mephistopheles would probably want to rip off his foe's head himself, but the other lords tend to be rather lazy or too busy being Popsicles. Asmodeus allows Dukes to die and doesn't care how it's accomplished, whereas the Lords he trusts to either manage any would-be hitmen themselves or to be too useless to concern himself with.


3) Are Demon Princes, Lords of the Nine, Dukes of Hell and Demon Lords allowed in Sigil?

Nooooooooooooooooo. Even pit fiends and balors aren't particularly welcome and don't stay long. Uniques are cordially invited to stay out of Dodge. So to speak.


Are there any hitmen who have taken out Demon Lords or Lords of Nine and gotten away with it, that haven't immediately ascended to fill the position they opened up?

*points wordlessly to a stack of modules and other adventures*


What is a witch (in dnd fluff not RL obviously)?

It's about as defined as an archmage is; that is to say, it's thrown around as a term more than it's ever confined to a specific thing, despite there being material that ostensibly covers it. Answerer provided a very good summation of the situation.

That said, if you want a witchier sort of witch, I offer you this:

Witch
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4 th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Summon familiar, curse resistance +1|3|1+1

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3||4|2+1|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Brew Potion|4|2+1|1+1|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Stealthy curse|4|3+1|2+1|-|-

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Curse resistance +2|4|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Extend curse|4|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Panacea|4|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Enlarge curse|4|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Nightmares beyond dreams|4|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Curse resistance +3|4|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-

13th|
++6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Curse resistance +4|4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Curse resistance +5|4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1[/table]

The witch is a dangerous magic-wielder, one capable of unleashing horrible curses that ravage mind and body. Witches are not inherently evil, but the powers they wield often make them the subject of not altogether undeserved fear. While some witches gleefully serve extraplanar forces of malevolence and terror, others see themselves as divine punishers, agents of hard justice, or overthrowers of a falsely-validated cosmic order.

HD 1d4
Skills As wizard

Spells As wizard. Witches can prepare one extra [Curse] spell of each level they can cast (other than level 0).

Summon Familiar As wizard.

Curse Resistance (Su) Witches get a +1 bonus on saving throws to resist the effects of spells with the [Curse] descriptor. This extends to those spells and effects equivalent to them even if the spell in question would not have the [Curse] descriptor (due to being cast by a non-witch, or being a spell-like ability, for example). At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1.

Brew Potion At 3rd level, a witch gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat.

Stealthy Curse (Su) At 4th level, the Witch gains the ability to hide her dark magics. Choose one: three times per day, the Witch may cast a spell with the [Curse] descriptor as though it were affected by the Silent Spell feat, or three times per day she may cast a spell with the [Curse] descriptor as though it were affected by the Still Spell feat. In either case, the spell's level does not change. Once chosen, this choice may not be changed.

Extend Curse (Su) Beginning at 6th level, three times per day, the Witch may cast a spell with the [Curse] descriptor as though it were affected by the Extend Spell feat. This does not change the spell's level.

Panacea At 7th level, a witch adds aid, cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, delay poison, lesser restoration, remove blindness/deafness and remove disease to the list of spells that she can create potions from (she cannot actually cast the spells). Treat these spells as equivalent to the cleric spells of the same names.

Enlarge Curse (Su) Beginning at 8th level, three times per day, the Witch may cast a spell with the [Curse] descriptor as though it were affected by the Enlarge Spell feat. This does not change the spell's level.

Nightmares Beyond Dreams (Su) At 9th level, the witch can select one [Curse] spell she knows with the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor and treat it as though it did not have that descriptor. The spell will still fail to affect mindless beings and those without an Intelligence score.

Witch Spell List

Witches choose their spells from the following list.

0th Level
arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, know direction, light, lullaby, mage hand, mending, message, minor disguiseSpC, no lightBoVD, open/close, preserve organBoVD, prestidigitation, read magic, touch of fatigue, unnerving gazeBoVD

1st Level
alarm, animate rope, backbiterSpC, bane, bestow woundBoVD, cause fear, charm person, deathwatch, detect animals or plants, detect secret doors, disguise self, dispel wardSpC, doom, ebon eyesSpC, endure elements, entangle, feather fall, grease, hide from animals, hypnotism, identify, inflict light wounds, lesser confusion, magic mouth, mark of the outcastSpC, Nystul's magic aura, obscuring mist, omen of perilSpC, sacrificial skillBoVD, silent image, sleep, spirit wormSpC, stuporBoVD, summon monster I (true neutral or evil creatures only), unseen servant

2nd Level
animal messenger, arcane lock, augury, barkskin, blindness/deafness, curse of ill fortuneSpC, curse of impending bladesSpC, darkness, daze monster, delusions of grandeurSpC, dissonant chantSpC, distractSpC, enthrall, gentle repose, ghoul glyphSpC, hold person, inflict moderate wounds, malevolent miasmaSpC, make whole, misdirection, obscure object, pass without trace, ray of enfeeblement, ray of sicknessSpC, ray of weaknessSpC, sap strengthBoVD, shrivelingBoVD, silence, soften earth and stone, sound burst, summon monster II (true neutral or evil creatures only), summon swarm, suppress glyphSpC, Tasha's hideous laughter, undetectable alignment, ventriloquism, wave of griefSpC, warp wood, wither limb, zone of truth

3rd Level
alter self, arcane sight, bestow curse, capricious zephyrSpC, charm monster, contagion, contagious fogSpC, cruel disappointmentBoVD, cursed bladeSpC, curse of the putrid huskBoVD, deeper darkness, deep slumber, diminish plants, dispel magic, dread wordBoVD, evil eyeBoVD, fog cloud, ghoul touch, glimpse of truthBoVD, glyph of warding, inflict serious wounds, invisibility, invisibility purge, know opponentSpC, know vulnerabilitiesSpC, locate object, love's painBoVD (no corruption cost), mass curse of impending bladesSpC, mesmerizing glareSpC, mind poisonSpC, miser's envySpC, ray of dizzinessSpC, ray of exhaustion, remove curse, sleet storm, spike growth, suggestion, summon monster III (true neutral or evil creatures only), touch of idiocy, unluckSpC, vulnerabilitySpC, weather eyeSpC, web, whispering wind, wind wall

4th Level
air walk, arcane eye, assay spell resistanceSpC, blight, call lightning, confusion, contagious touchSpC, control water, crushing despair, detect scrying, dismissal, divination, dream, false vision, giant vermin, graymantleSpC, inflict critical wounds, junglerazerSpC, languorSpC, lesser geas, major image, mass curse of ill fortuneSpC, minor creation, mirror sendingBoVD, nightmare, nondetection, plant growth, poison, psychic poisonBoVD, sending, sensory deprivationSpC, speak with dead, spike stones, starvationSpC, summon monster IV (true neutral or evil creatures only), wood rotSpC, wrackSpC

5th Level
break enchantment, control winds, dimensional anchor, dire hungerSpC, doomtideSpC, false sendingBoVD, fear, feeblemind, hallucinatory terrain, hold monster, insect plague, major creation, mark of justice, mass contagionSpC, mass inflict light wounds, miasma of entropySpC, prying eyes, rotting curse of UrfestraBoVD (no corruption cost), seeming, soul shacklesBoVD, spell immunity, summon monster V (true neutral or evil creatures only), symbol of pain, symbol of sleep, transmute rock to mud, true seeing, wall of thorns, waves of fatigue

6th Level
animate objects, antilife shell, baleful polymorph, call lightning storm, dream castingSpC, eyebite, find the path, fleshshiverSpC, forbiddance, forbidden speechBoVD (no corruption cost), geas, ghost trapSpC, greater glyph of warding, imperious glareSpC, mass inflict moderate wounds, mass suggestion, mislead, summon monster VI (true neutral or evil creatures only), rejectionSpC, spider plagueSpC, symbol of fear, symbol of persuasion, transcribe symbolSpC, wind walk

7th Level
blood to waterSpC, control weather, creeping doom, discern location, evil glareSpC, greater arcane sight, greater bestow curseSpC, harm, hiss of sleepSpC, imprison soulBoVD, insanity, legend lore, mass inflict serious wounds, pestilenceBoVD, power word blind, repulsion, sequester, shifting pathsSpC, summon monster VII (true neutral or evil creatures only), symbol of stunning, symbol of weakness, symphonic nightmareSpC, transfixSpC, waves of exhaustion

8th Level
antipathy, befoulBoVD, demand, flensingSpC, glass strikeSpC, greater prying eyes, greater spell immunity, horrid wilting, maddening whispersSpC, mass charm monster, mass inflict critical wounds, Otto's irresistible dance, power word stun, project image, protection from spells, soul's treasure lostBoVD, steal lifeBoVD, summon monster VIII (true neutral or evil creatures only), symbol of death, symbol of insanity, trap the soul

9th Level
absorptionSpC, despoilBoVD, imprisonment, magic miasmaSpC, mass hold monster, plague of nightmaresBoVD (no corruption cost), programmed amnesiaSpC, screen, soul bind, storm of vengeance, summon monster IX (true neutral or evil creatures only), utterdarkBoVD

[Curse]
Spells with the [Curse] descriptor can be enhanced by the wicked sortilege of the witch. Such spells tend to have a non-instantaneous duration, are of deleterious nature, and most often originate in the schools of Enchantment, Necromancy and Transmutation.

[Curse] spells can be removed with a casting of remove curse unless they are of 5th level or higher; if this is the case, break enchantment is required instead. [Curse] spells are curses as defined by either spell, subject to the above limitation.

[Curse] spells resist removal via dispel magic and similar or related effects; treat their caster level as being 2 higher for the purposes of resolving such effects. The [Curse] descriptor is not synonymous with evil, but some spells with the [Curse] descriptor are also [Evil] spells.

The following are spells using the [Curse] descriptor when cast by a witch. Note that this is not an exhaustive list, and that you may wish to treat such spells as having the [Curse] descriptor regardless of caster.

The feats Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus can be selected to apply to [Curse] spells.

0th Level
daze, touch of fatigue, unnerving gazeBoVD

1st Level
backbiterSpC, bane, bestow woundBoVD, cause fear, doom, lesser confusion, mark of the outcastSpC, sleep, spirit wormSpC, stuporBoVD

2nd Level
blindness/deafness, curse of ill fortuneSpC, curse of impending bladesSpC, daze monster, delusions of grandeurSpC, distractSpC, ghoul glyphSpC, hold person, malevolent miasmaSpC, obscure object, ray of enfeeblement, ray of sicknessSpC, ray of weaknessSpC, sap strengthBoVD, shrivelingBoVD, Tasha's hideous laughter, wave of griefSpC, warp wood, wither limb, zone of truth

3rd Level
bestow curse, contagion, cruel disappointmentBoVD, cursed bladeSpC, curse of the putrid huskBoVD, deep slumber, diminish plants, dread wordBoVD, evil eyeBoVD, ghoul touch, love's painBoVD, mass curse of impending bladesSpC, mesmerizing glareSpC, mind poisonSpC, miser's envySpC, ray of dizzinessSpC, ray of exhaustion, touch of idiocy, unluckSpC, vulnerabilitySpC

4th Level
blight, confusion, contagious touchSpC, crushing despair, graymantleSpC, languorSpC, lesser geas, mass curse of ill fortuneSpC, nightmare, psychic poisonBoVD, sensory deprivationSpC, starvationSpC, wood rotSpC, wrackSpC

5th Level
dire hungerSpC, doomtideSpC, fear, feeblemind, hold monster, mark of justice, mass contagionSpC, rotting curse of UrfestraBoVD, soul shacklesBoVD, waves of fatigue

6th Level
baleful polymorph, eyebite, fleshshiverSpC, forbiddance, forbidden speechBoVD, geas, imperious glareSpC, rejectionSpC

7th Level
blood to waterSpC, evil glareSpC, greater bestow curseSpC, hiss of sleepSpC, imprison soulBoVD, insanity, pestilenceBoVD, power word blind, repulsion, symphonic nightmareSpC, transfixSpC, waves of exhaustion

8th Level
antipathy, befoulBoVD, glass strikeSpC, maddening whispersSpC, Otto's irresistible dance, power word stun, soul's treasure lostBoVD, steal lifeBoVD, trap the soul

9th Level
despoilBoVD, magic miasmaSpC, mass hold monster, plague of nightmaresBoVD, programmed amnesiaSpC, soul bind

[Lord_Gareth]

You implied before that Celestia and Baator are not sovereign political entities, which confuses me - last I knew, those two planes were places that were also governments, much like a nation, with the respective leaders (Zaph and Azzie) being the leaders of the plane itself in the spiritual, temporal, and political senses. If this isn't the case, what is?

[Larkas]

That said, if you want a witchier sort of witch, I offer you this:

Witch
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4 th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Summon familiar, curse resistance +1|3|1+1

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3||4|2+1|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Brew Potion|4|2+1|1+1|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Stealthy curse|4|3+1|2+1|-|-

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Curse resistance +2|4|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Extend curse|4|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Panacea|4|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Enlarge curse|4|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Nightmares beyond dreams|4|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Curse resistance +3|4|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-|-

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-

13th|
++6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-|-

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Curse resistance +4|4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|-

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Curse resistance +5|4|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1[/table]

The witch is a dangerous magic-wielder, one capable of unleashing horrible curses that ravage mind and body. Witches are not inherently evil, but the powers they wield often make them the subject of not altogether undeserved fear. While some witches gleefully serve extraplanar forces of malevolence and terror, others see themselves as divine punishers, agents of hard justice, or overthrowers of a falsely-validated cosmic order.

HD 1d4
Skills As wizard

Spells As wizard. Witches can prepare one extra [Curse] spell of each level they can cast (other than level 0).

Summon Familiar As wizard.

Curse Resistance (Su) Witches get a +1 bonus on saving throws to resist the effects of spells with the [Curse] descriptor. This extends to those spells and effects equivalent to them even if the spell in question would not have the [Curse] descriptor (due to being cast by a non-witch, or being a spell-like ability, for example). At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1.

Brew Potion At 3rd level, a witch gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat.

Stealthy Curse (Su) At 4th level, the Witch gains the ability to hide her dark magics. Choose one: three times per day, the Witch may cast a spell with the [Curse] descriptor as though it were affected by the Silent Spell feat, or three times per day she may cast a spell with the [Curse] descriptor as though it were affected by the Still Spell feat. In either case, the spell's level does not change. Once chosen, this choice may not be changed.

Extend Curse (Su) Beginning at 6th level, three times per day, the Witch may cast a spell with the [Curse] descriptor as though it were affected by the Extend Spell feat. This does not change the spell's level.

Panacea At 7th level, a witch adds aid, cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, delay poison, lesser restoration, remove blindness/deafness and remove disease to the list of spells that she can create potions from (she cannot actually cast the spells). Treat these spells as equivalent to the cleric spells of the same names.

Enlarge Curse (Su) Beginning at 8th level, three times per day, the Witch may cast a spell with the [Curse] descriptor as though it were affected by the Enlarge Spell feat. This does not change the spell's level.

Nightmares Beyond Dreams (Su) At 9th level, the witch can select one [Curse] spell she knows with the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor and treat it as though it did not have that descriptor. The spell will still fail to affect mindless beings and those without an Intelligence score.

Witch Spell List

Witches choose their spells from the following list.

0th Level
arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, know direction, light, lullaby, mage hand, mending, message, minor disguiseSpC, no lightBoVD, open/close, preserve organBoVD, prestidigitation, read magic, touch of fatigue, unnerving gazeBoVD

1st Level
alarm, animate rope, backbiterSpC, bane, bestow woundBoVD, cause fear, charm person, deathwatch, detect animals or plants, detect secret doors, disguise self, dispel wardSpC, doom, ebon eyesSpC, endure elements, entangle, feather fall, grease, hide from animals, hypnotism, identify, inflict light wounds, lesser confusion, magic mouth, mark of the outcastSpC, Nystul's magic aura, obscuring mist, omen of perilSpC, sacrificial skillBoVD, silent image, sleep, spirit wormSpC, stuporBoVD, summon monster I (true neutral or evil creatures only), unseen servant

2nd Level
animal messenger, arcane lock, augury, barkskin, blindness/deafness, curse of ill fortuneSpC, curse of impending bladesSpC, darkness, daze monster, delusions of grandeurSpC, dissonant chantSpC, distractSpC, enthrall, gentle repose, ghoul glyphSpC, hold person, inflict moderate wounds, malevolent miasmaSpC, make whole, misdirection, obscure object, pass without trace, ray of enfeeblement, ray of sicknessSpC, ray of weaknessSpC, sap strengthBoVD, shrivelingBoVD, silence, soften earth and stone, sound burst, summon monster II (true neutral or evil creatures only), summon swarm, suppress glyphSpC, Tasha's hideous laughter, undetectable alignment, ventriloquism, wave of griefSpC, warp wood, wither limb, zone of truth

3rd Level
alter self, arcane sight, bestow curse, capricious zephyrSpC, charm monster, contagion, contagious fogSpC, cruel disappointmentBoVD, cursed bladeSpC, curse of the putrid huskBoVD, deeper darkness, deep slumber, diminish plants, dispel magic, dread wordBoVD, evil eyeBoVD, fog cloud, ghoul touch, glimpse of truthBoVD, glyph of warding, inflict serious wounds, invisibility, invisibility purge, know opponentSpC, know vulnerabilitiesSpC, locate object, love's painBoVD (no corruption cost), mass curse of impending bladesSpC, mesmerizing glareSpC, mind poisonSpC, miser's envySpC, ray of dizzinessSpC, ray of exhaustion, remove curse, sleet storm, spike growth, suggestion, summon monster III (true neutral or evil creatures only), touch of idiocy, unluckSpC, vulnerabilitySpC, weather eyeSpC, web, whispering wind, wind wall

4th Level
air walk, arcane eye, assay spell resistanceSpC, blight, call lightning, confusion, contagious touchSpC, control water, crushing despair, detect scrying, dismissal, divination, dream, false vision, giant vermin, graymantleSpC, inflict critical wounds, junglerazerSpC, languorSpC, lesser geas, major image, mass curse of ill fortuneSpC, minor creation, mirror sendingBoVD, nightmare, nondetection, plant growth, poison, psychic poisonBoVD, sending, sensory deprivationSpC, speak with dead, spike stones, starvationSpC, summon monster IV (true neutral or evil creatures only), wood rotSpC, wrackSpC

5th Level
break enchantment, control winds, dimensional anchor, dire hungerSpC, doomtideSpC, false sendingBoVD, fear, feeblemind, hallucinatory terrain, hold monster, insect plague, major creation, mark of justice, mass contagionSpC, mass inflict light wounds, miasma of entropySpC, prying eyes, rotting curse of UrfestraBoVD (no corruption cost), seeming, soul shacklesBoVD, spell immunity, summon monster V (true neutral or evil creatures only), symbol of pain, symbol of sleep, transmute rock to mud, true seeing, wall of thorns, waves of fatigue

6th Level
animate objects, antilife shell, baleful polymorph, call lightning storm, dream castingSpC, eyebite, find the path, fleshshiverSpC, forbiddance, forbidden speechBoVD (no corruption cost), geas, ghost trapSpC, greater glyph of warding, imperious glareSpC, mass inflict moderate wounds, mass suggestion, mislead, summon monster VI (true neutral or evil creatures only), rejectionSpC, spider plagueSpC, symbol of fear, symbol of persuasion, transcribe symbolSpC, wind walk

7th Level
blood to waterSpC, control weather, creeping doom, discern location, evil glareSpC, greater arcane sight, greater bestow curseSpC, harm, hiss of sleepSpC, imprison soulBoVD, insanity, legend lore, mass inflict serious wounds, pestilenceBoVD, power word blind, repulsion, sequester, shifting pathsSpC, summon monster VII (true neutral or evil creatures only), symbol of stunning, symbol of weakness, symphonic nightmareSpC, transfixSpC, waves of exhaustion

8th Level
antipathy, befoulBoVD, demand, flensingSpC, glass strikeSpC, greater prying eyes, greater spell immunity, horrid wilting, maddening whispersSpC, mass charm monster, mass inflict critical wounds, Otto's irresistible dance, power word stun, project image, protection from spells, soul's treasure lostBoVD, steal lifeBoVD, summon monster VIII (true neutral or evil creatures only), symbol of death, symbol of insanity, trap the soul

9th Level
absorptionSpC, despoilBoVD, imprisonment, magic miasmaSpC, mass hold monster, plague of nightmaresBoVD (no corruption cost), programmed amnesiaSpC, screen, soul bind, storm of vengeance, summon monster IX (true neutral or evil creatures only), utterdarkBoVD

[Curse]
Spells with the [Curse] descriptor can be enhanced by the wicked sortilege of the witch. Such spells tend to have a non-instantaneous duration, are of deleterious nature, and most often originate in the schools of Enchantment, Necromancy and Transmutation.

[Curse] spells can be removed with a casting of remove curse unless they are of 5th level or higher; if this is the case, break enchantment is required instead. [Curse] spells are curses as defined by either spell, subject to the above limitation.

[Curse] spells resist removal via dispel magic and similar or related effects; treat their caster level as being 2 higher for the purposes of resolving such effects. The [Curse] descriptor is not synonymous with evil, but some spells with the [Curse] descriptor are also [Evil] spells.

The following are spells using the [Curse] descriptor when cast by a witch. Note that this is not an exhaustive list, and that you may wish to treat such spells as having the [Curse] descriptor regardless of caster.

The feats Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus can be selected to apply to [Curse] spells.

0th Level
daze, touch of fatigue, unnerving gazeBoVD

1st Level
backbiterSpC, bane, bestow woundBoVD, cause fear, doom, lesser confusion, mark of the outcastSpC, sleep, spirit wormSpC, stuporBoVD

2nd Level
blindness/deafness, curse of ill fortuneSpC, curse of impending bladesSpC, daze monster, delusions of grandeurSpC, distractSpC, ghoul glyphSpC, hold person, malevolent miasmaSpC, obscure object, ray of enfeeblement, ray of sicknessSpC, ray of weaknessSpC, sap strengthBoVD, shrivelingBoVD, Tasha's hideous laughter, wave of griefSpC, warp wood, wither limb, zone of truth

3rd Level
bestow curse, contagion, cruel disappointmentBoVD, cursed bladeSpC, curse of the putrid huskBoVD, deep slumber, diminish plants, dread wordBoVD, evil eyeBoVD, ghoul touch, love's painBoVD, mass curse of impending bladesSpC, mesmerizing glareSpC, mind poisonSpC, miser's envySpC, ray of dizzinessSpC, ray of exhaustion, touch of idiocy, unluckSpC, vulnerabilitySpC

4th Level
blight, confusion, contagious touchSpC, crushing despair, graymantleSpC, languorSpC, lesser geas, mass curse of ill fortuneSpC, nightmare, psychic poisonBoVD, sensory deprivationSpC, starvationSpC, wood rotSpC, wrackSpC

5th Level
dire hungerSpC, doomtideSpC, fear, feeblemind, hold monster, mark of justice, mass contagionSpC, rotting curse of UrfestraBoVD, soul shacklesBoVD, waves of fatigue

6th Level
baleful polymorph, eyebite, fleshshiverSpC, forbiddance, forbidden speechBoVD, geas, imperious glareSpC, rejectionSpC

7th Level
blood to waterSpC, evil glareSpC, greater bestow curseSpC, hiss of sleepSpC, imprison soulBoVD, insanity, pestilenceBoVD, power word blind, repulsion, symphonic nightmareSpC, transfixSpC, waves of exhaustion

8th Level
antipathy, befoulBoVD, glass strikeSpC, maddening whispersSpC, Otto's irresistible dance, power word stun, soul's treasure lostBoVD, steal lifeBoVD, trap the soul

9th Level
despoilBoVD, magic miasmaSpC, mass hold monster, plague of nightmaresBoVD, programmed amnesiaSpC, soul bind

Hey, that's interesting! :smalleek: Do you have a thread in the homebrew forums for that?

[gkathellar]

You implied before that Celestia and Baator are not sovereign political entities, which confuses me - last I knew, those two planes were places that were also governments, much like a nation, with the respective leaders (Zaph and Azzie) being the leaders of the plane itself in the spiritual, temporal, and political senses. If this isn't the case, what is?

They're not political entities, nations, or states of any sorts.

Celestia runs on a "first among equals" model, where people listen to Zaph because he's respected above all others. After all, why should willing servants be servants at all?* Lawful Good is about understanding that there is a right way, and Zaphael is understood to have great insight into it.

Asmodeus, on the other hand, is running an army, with the associated military hierarchy. An army replete with bureaucracy and complexity, but that's because (a) he likes it that way, and (b) you'd need a pretty absurd bureaucracy to manage an army on that scale.

*In Mechanus, the take would be, "why should willing servants have wills at all?"

[Eldan]

You implied before that Celestia and Baator are not sovereign political entities, which confuses me - last I knew, those two planes were places that were also governments, much like a nation, with the respective leaders (Zaph and Azzie) being the leaders of the plane itself in the spiritual, temporal, and political senses. If this isn't the case, what is?

The Archon race might be. The Baatezu race certainly is.

But both planes have plenty of other things living on them. Including divine realms, which would have to deal with those races, but don't necessarily bow to the rulers of the respective layers.

[afroakuma]

You implied before that Celestia and Baator are not sovereign political entities, which confuses me - last I knew, those two planes were places that were also governments, much like a nation, with the respective leaders (Zaph and Azzie) being the leaders of the plane itself in the spiritual, temporal, and political senses. If this isn't the case, what is?

As gkathellar and Eldan said: the archons as a race and the baatezu as a race are sovereign legal entities. However, neither Zaphkiel nor Asmodeus speak for the whole plane or all of its inhabitants.


Hey, that's interesting! :smalleek: Do you have a thread in the homebrew forums for that?

I don't. I just whipped it up for this thread.

[Mystify]

What can you tell me about Slaad that doesn't translate to gibberish? Slaad are chaotic, but they aren't unknowable like far realms stuff, right?

[Chilingsworth]

Other than the Archons and Baatezu, what races exist on Baator and Celestia? (other than the ancient Baatorians, on whom you've already spoken significantly.)

[afroakuma]

What can you tell me about Slaad that doesn't translate to gibberish?

Gibberish? How insulting. Just for that, I'm going to take my basketball and hamburger Euripides calisthenics denomination.

That said, this link here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92837) should have everything you need.


Slaad are chaotic, but they aren't unknowable like far realms stuff, right?

Well, ultimately no exemplar is really "knowable," but slaad are a lot easier on the brain. Keep away from the spawners, though; they're highly-charged and have limited personal restraint. Greens and up are safe(r) to be around (not the death slaad though).


Other than the Archons and Baatezu, what races exist on Baator and Celestia? (other than the ancient Baatorians, on whom you've already spoken significantly.)

Oh, a great many. On Celestia, for example, there are zoveri, angels, noctrals, radiant dragons, metallic dragons, celestial halflings, incarnates, couatls... it's a pretty busy place, when you get right down to it.

Baator, meanwhile, features fewer non-exemplars because of the nature of the place, but there are still the odd few outliers; fiendish sahuagin, minions of Set, kytons, bezekiras, haraknin, imps and a surprising amount of Lower Planar traffic, all things considered.

[Eldan]

Gods, too, and their various minions. Tiamat has tons of them.

[Jon_Dahl]

How cold is it in Stygia and is the temperature always fixed or is it variable in certain areas and seasons?

[afroakuma]

How cold is it in Stygia and is the temperature always fixed or is it variable in certain areas and seasons?

Stygia's miserably cold. It doesn't obey regular laws of temperature, either; it takes a while to cling to you (about an hour) and then the suffering begins (even before that, if you come in unprotected, you're gonna have a bad time). An hour after entering Stygia, you'll start feeling the effects of severe cold, which is in the vicinity of -18 to -20 degrees Celsius (around 0 degrees Fahrenheit).

It can get colder in places, and there are regions of comparable warmth (Tantlin, the major city, isn't quite so bad, and Set's realm is a hot desert). Still, in general, Stygia's nastiness comes from the presence of the Styx, not from the cold (which ultimately you can deal with with relative ease).

Now, Cania... Cania is cold. Cania's cold hates you quite personally and wants you to know that. It's off the charts. The coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth clocked in at -89.2 degrees Celsius. Cania probably clocks in at twice that (-180 Celsius, -292 Fahrenheit). It might even be worse (-250 C, -420 F). Cania's cold is literally ten times worse than Stygia's; no degree of nonmagical protection will save you except the nonmagical protection of being somewhere else.

[Lord_Gareth]

Invasions (both successful and failed) of the Prime Material Plane by exemplars and other planar races are well-documented in D&D. However, what I want to know is if there's ever been a significant invasion of a plane (or layer of a plane) by Material forces. Was it successful, if so? What would it take to establish significant control over a planar layer by Prime Material forces?

[Answerer]

Cania probably clocks in at twice that (-180 Celsius, -292 Fahrenheit). It might even be worse (-250 C, -420 F).
Those "worse" numbers for reference, are somewhere on the far side of liquid nitrogen and are gettingquite close to absolute zero (-273 C, IIRC).

[Xervous]

so would it be possible to observe liquid air elementals there?

[Jon_Dahl]

Stygia's miserably cold. It doesn't obey regular laws of temperature, either; it takes a while to cling to you (about an hour) and then the suffering begins (even before that, if you come in unprotected, you're gonna have a bad time). An hour after entering Stygia, you'll start feeling the effects of severe cold, which is in the vicinity of -18 to -20 degrees Celsius (around 0 degrees Fahrenheit).

It can get colder in places, and there are regions of comparable warmth (Tantlin, the major city, isn't quite so bad, and Set's realm is a hot desert). Still, in general, Stygia's nastiness comes from the presence of the Styx, not from the cold (which ultimately you can deal with with relative ease).

Now, Cania... Cania is cold. Cania's cold hates you quite personally and wants you to know that. It's off the charts. The coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth clocked in at -89.2 degrees Celsius. Cania probably clocks in at twice that (-180 Celsius, -292 Fahrenheit). It might even be worse (-250 C, -420 F). Cania's cold is literally ten times worse than Stygia's; no degree of nonmagical protection will save you except the nonmagical protection of being somewhere else.

Thank you so much for the answer Afroakuma, especially since I had already decided that Stygia is -20 degrees, but I just wanted an answer from someone who knows it better than me :smallsmile:

[Jigokuro]

Recent topic reminded me of a question from far far back in the tread that I don't think got solidly answered.* It was basically, "can you take water from the Styx and have it still be a potent amnesiac elsewhere?"
I have definite answer: Yes, if frozen.
Frostburn p81 detains Stygian Ice as a material for weapons and in general including that contact with it causes wisdom damage from memory loss (and raises a wraith if it is deadly). However, there is no mention that the liquid it melts into (slowly, if kept over 40F) is at all harmful.

*IIRC, there was just the note about the bar on sigil with a drink claiming to use it.

[Eldan]

Invasions (both successful and failed) of the Prime Material Plane by exemplars and other planar races are well-documented in D&D. However, what I want to know is if there's ever been a significant invasion of a plane (or layer of a plane) by Material forces. Was it successful, if so? What would it take to establish significant control over a planar layer by Prime Material forces?

There was the War of Iron. When the Harmonium had pacified it's home planet of Ortho, they decided the next step to bring Harmony to the planes was to invade the Abyss.

They failed rather miserably.

But then, the planes were never a main focus for Ortho.

[Clistenes]

There was the War of Iron. When the Harmonium had pacified it's home planet of Ortho, they decided the next step to bring Harmony to the planes was to invade the Abyss.

They failed rather miserably.

But then, the planes were never a main focus for Ortho.

I think they were just trying to take war back to the demons who had invaded Ortho. They didn't understand what that "Abyss" really was, otherwise they wouldn't have tried something like that.

[Proud Tortoise]

Now, Cania... Cania is cold. Cania's cold hates you quite personally and wants you to know that. It's off the charts. The coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth clocked in at -89.2 degrees Celsius. Cania probably clocks in at twice that (-180 Celsius, -292 Fahrenheit). It might even be worse (-250 C, -420 F). Cania's cold is literally ten times worse than Stygia's; no degree of nonmagical protection will save you except the nonmagical protection of being somewhere else.

Think Cania ever gets to, say, -273.1 degrees Celsius?

[afroakuma]

Those "worse" numbers for reference, are somewhere on the far side of liquid nitrogen and are gettingquite close to absolute zero (-273 C, IIRC).

Actually, you're looking at nitrogen ice by that point. Which leads to the fascinating possibility that all of Cania is frozen nitrogen instead of water... *hears the sound of a dying catgirl*

[Clistenes]

I think I read somewhere that, in the Spelljammer setting, spelljamming cultures and races have come to the conclusion that all the gods of the different worlds are aspects of the same multiversal pantheon (the Destroyer, the Nurturer...etc.). Do you know any sourcebook were that is explained? Do you know the full list of that multiversal pantheon?.

[Go!Go!Go!]

why does asmodeus even keep the other archdukes around? they don't wage the blood war. they constantly plot his downfall. they fight each other. they can't even take him down if they combined forced, which they wouldn't. he's better off without them, i say.

also, i seem to recall that there was once a creature born of an angel and a devil. what is it? can such a thing exist in RAW? what templates would it have? are there other beings born of opposing planes? Modron/Slaad?

also, that witch is awesome. my only complaint uis that its class features stop after about lvl 10 or so. you should expand on that.

[herrhauptmann]

Do you know the full list of that multiversal pantheon?.

Probably just a list of archetypes. Even then, there'd be variations.

ex: Chaos.
Chaos that you get on Black Friday in America. Or the Chaos that you get right after a nuclear detonation.

In game terms:
Kelemvor is death, and judge (of the dead). But Cyric (before losing the city of the dead) was death, judge (of the dead), evil, chaos.
Lathander is sun, dawn, renewal, youth, artist, etc. Amaunator was sun, noon, time, law.
Gee, these are starting to look like a list of portfolios, aren't they?

[Proud Tortoise]

I think I read somewhere again that, in the Spelljammer setting, spelljamming cultures and races have come to the conclusion that all the gods of the different worlds are aspects of the same multiversal pantheon (the Destroyer, the Nurturer...etc.). Do you know any sourcebook were that is explained? Do you know the full list of that multiversal pantheon?.

Sounds like how in Eberron, worshipers of the Sovereign Host say that all other deities are incarnations of their own.

[Lapak]

Actually, you're looking at nitrogen ice by that point. Which leads to the fascinating possibility that all of Cania is frozen nitrogen instead of water... *hears the sound of a dying catgirl*Well, if it's THAT cold and used real physics as opposed to magical-plane-physics, magical protection wouldn't do you much good against the cold unless you have an air supply to go with it; you can't breathe 'atmosphere' that's lying at your feet in solid chunks.

[Clistenes]

why does asmodeus even keep the other archdukes around? they don't wage the blood war. they constantly plot his downfall. they fight each other. they can't even take him down if they combined forced, which they wouldn't. he's better off without them, i say.

also, i seem to recall that there was once a creature born of an angel and a devil. what is it? can such a thing exist in RAW? what templates would it have? are there other beings born of opposing planes? Modron/Slaad?

also, that witch is awesome. my only complaint uis that its class features stop after about lvl 10 or so. you should expand on that.

Corcondant Killer, Monster Manual IV, page 34.

[Proud Tortoise]

why does asmodeus even keep the other archdukes around? they don't wage the blood war. they constantly plot his downfall. they fight each other. they can't even take him down if they combined forced, which they wouldn't. he's better off without them, i say.


Do you think Asmodeus could win in a battle against all the other archdukes? Because I seriously doubt it.

[Tzardok]

Wow, what an awesome thread! There are some really interesting questions asked here and the answers are very good.:smallbiggrin:

So it shouldn't be surprising that I have a few questions for you, too::smallwink:

1. At one point in thread you said that obyrith aren't exemplars because they are not created from mortal souls. But at another point you said that modrons are not created from souls, but were something like Primus' representations in Mechanus and birthed from some kind of pools. I also read a bit at planewalker and there it was stated that yugoloths are spawned at their towers. With slaads fertilizing each other at the spawning stone and eladrin and guardinals reproducing sexually it seems as if exemplars being created from souls is the exception rather than the norm (only archons, tana'ri and baatezu). Could you please clarify?

2. Could you please tell me everything you now about rilmani? I seem not to be able to find anything substantial about them. Do they even have some equivalent to demon lords and celestial paragons?

[Xenogears]

Do you think Asmodeus could win in a battle against all the other archdukes? Because I seriously doubt it.

Asmodeous soloing the other 8? Round 1 he turns them all into lemures because he can demote any devil at a whim...

[afroakuma]

I think I read somewhere that, in the Spelljammer setting, spelljamming cultures and races have come to the conclusion that all the gods of the different worlds are aspects of the same multiversal pantheon (the Destroyer, the Nurturer...etc.). Do you know any sourcebook were that is explained? Do you know the full list of that multiversal pantheon?.

I don't recall anything of the sort.


why does asmodeus even keep the other archdukes around? they don't wage the blood war.

Bel does.


they constantly plot his downfall.

Only two of them really do that and one is a Popsicle.


they fight each other.

Self-solving problems.


they can't even take him down if they combined forced, which they wouldn't. he's better off without them, i say.

Actually, there are indications that if Baalzebul and Mephistopheles could ever stop hating one another to pieces, they could be a palpable threat to the Lord Below.

Fact is, each Lord provides structure and order to Hell that would otherwise be lacking; this effect can be seen in the former Malbolge, where the stopgap hag Lord of the Sixth was inadequate to give the layer suitable form and character, leaving it constantly eroding. When Moloch was in power, the stones rarely shifted, and concealed deep, stable caverns for the planning of dark deeds. The Hag Countess's reign was marked by avalanches and collapse.

The Lords of the Nine are also key to promoting Hell's interests; their selfishness and ambition drives them to exert personal power to extend the reach of Hell on the Prime. Mephistopheles delivers a lot of souls and worship to Asmodeus, for instance.

Most crucially, the Lords provide the architecture of Baator's hierarchy. They facilitate, operate and promulgate the bureaucracy and the rank structure in ways that ultimately tighten the Lord Below's control over the plane. It's little-known but quite true that Asmodeus does not have absolute control over his underlings. The Lords of the Nine are delicately arranged to ensure Asmodeus a firm grip on his realm.


also, that witch is awesome. my only complaint uis that its class features stop after about lvl 10 or so. you should expand on that.

Yeah, I might.


Well, if it's THAT cold and used real physics as opposed to magical-plane-physics, magical protection wouldn't do you much good against the cold unless you have an air supply to go with it; you can't breathe 'atmosphere' that's lying at your feet in solid chunks.

It doesn't use real physics; the cold is a manifestation of the plane's evil, and safe passage can be granted by Mephistopheles and his dukes. That said, I really don't know what you would do to survive Cania even with magic; you would need cold immunity to manage it (Cania is colder than the Plane of Ice) as the damage is 10d6 per minute and that is going to hurt. Resist energy will drop that down to an average of 25 cold damage per minute, while protection from energy will cover you for a maximum of 120 points of damage (~3-4 minutes) per casting.


Wow, what an awesome thread! There are some really interesting questions asked here and the answers are very good.:smallbiggrin:

Why thank you! :smallcool:


1. At one point in thread you said that obyrith aren't exemplars because they are not created from mortal souls. But at another point you said that modrons are not created from souls, but were something like Primus' representations in Mechanus and birthed from some kind of pools. I also read a bit at planewalker and there it was stated that yugoloths are spawned at their towers. With slaads fertilizing each other at the spawning stone and eladrin and guardinals reproducing sexually it seems as if exemplars being created from souls is the exception rather than the norm (only archons, tana'ri and baatezu). Could you please clarify?

Modrons are created from souls that exist in Primus's pool. Spare souls are incarnated as coggles and moignos, lesser beings of law and structure that aid the modrons in their own way. When a modron is destroyed, its energy returns to the pool for cleaning and a fresh soul is used to deploy a replacement. Primus occasionally expands or contracts the number of modrons "in the field" at a time.

Yugoloths "spawn" (form) at the two towers, but they still come from larva. Yugoloths are capable of sexual reproduction, but they feel it produces inferior 'loths and so prefer to use gathered souls.

The Spawning Stone is not the only birthing place of the slaad. While it is powered by soulstuff (and slaad can randomly spawn across the plane from powerful chaotic souls), there are mysterious and forbidden "hatcheries" where so-called "true slaad" form. Slaad are exceptional because they can propagate in myriad ways; however, a strong chaotic soul dropped in Limbo is going to form into a slaad.

Eladrins aren't actually the feylike creatures they pose as; they're all some manner of incorporeal energy, typically a rainbow light, that can robe itself in a pleasing physical form and concentrate its energies (don't look at the eyes!) The forming of a new eladrin is actually a soul ascending to become one of these energy beings; the fleshly aspect is just a naturalization of the physical shell.

Guardinals are the tricky ones; their animal qualities are quite key to their nature. That being said, a new guardinal cannot be born without a potentiated soul becoming available; in the absence of good-aligned souls, guardinals would be stillborn.

The key to recognizing if something is soulmade or not is to examine whether or not it can take on an advanced (or reduced) form by becoming "more" of its alignment/essence/what have you. Natural-born yugoloths typically fail to show potential (which is why yugoloths don't like procuring more that way). All the beings described, though, have some ability to evolve into more powerful versions of their type with increasing personal power and purity of essence; exemplars.


2. Could you please tell me everything you now about rilmani? I seem not to be able to find anything substantial about them. Do they even have some equivalent to demon lords and celestial paragons?

Rilmani are quite obscure; I'd love to get an artist in to depict them without having been tainted by past illustrations, for creativity's sake.

We don't know if rilmani have lords per se, though one must assume that they have some kind of leader. They come in six known ranks: plumach, ferrumach, cuprilach, abiorach, argenach and aurumach. Roughly humanoid but with metallic skin, rilmani generally keep to themselves except when someone disturbs the Balance. Then they get mean.

Rilmani are actually quite powerful. And meeeean. They're cheerfully willing to go murder troublemakers, and as beings of True Neutrality, Good is on their hit list as much as Evil. They live near the Spire on the Outlands, making them the hardest planars to go and deal with at point-blank range.

You can find some adaptations in the Fiend Folio for 3E... but I wouldn't recommend it.


Asmodeous soloing the other 8? Round 1 he turns them all into lemures because he can demote any devil at a whim...

Thing is, though, that the act of demotion is a power expenditure for him, and there's no chance the others would let him do it without a struggle. Asmodeus would be in vast danger if he ever demoted more than one of them in a single go (note that he has never ever even demoted one of them outside of stripping title). The Hag Countess should not be taken as a good case study, given that she was not a true archdevil. Even still, that transformation taxed Asmodeus.

Asmodeus is not invincible; Baalzebul is gathering divine power to push back against the Lord Below and restore his own angelic form (defiance is possible). Dispater is old and cunning and has personally known Asmodeus, if rumor is true, since before the fall; he's wise to the extent of the Lord Below's power. As for Mephistopheles...

Asmodeus would win in a throwdown between himself and Mephistopheles, mano a mano. That's not a fight he wants to have, though; in addition to how much it would probably tax him (exposing him to Baalzebul and any other dangerous upstarts), Asmodeus would have to deal with Baalphegor.

Did I mention how Baalphegor is quite possibly the most terrifying known being in the Hells? If she's not a baatezu (and there's nothing saying she is; it's skated around quite thoroughly, in fact), then Asmodeus has no power to demote her, and if there's anyone in Hell with the knowledge of how to counter the Lord Below's authority, it's her.

From all practical angles, Asmodeus has the resources to win a war against one or more Lords; possibly even all eight. The personal peril it would put him in to expend that much power trying to directly crush the archdevils would be beyond the pale, though, and the chances of a pissed-off Mrs. Phistopheles aren't friendly.

[Proud Tortoise]

So if Asmodeus did go to battle with the other Archdukes, the demons, archons and possibly eladrin might be able to wipe him out?



Modrons are created from souls that exist in Primus's pool. Spare souls are incarnated as coggles and moignos, lesser beings of law and structure that aid the modrons in their own way.

Moignos are floating 2-D calculators, right? And what's a coggle?

Also, is it conceivable that the Blood War could ever be won by either side without outside intervention?

[Answerer]

Would a cessation of the considerable current outside interventions keeping it going count as outside intervention?

[JaronK]

Alright, I'd like to jump into this thread based on some personal plans.

If I wanted to count as a demon, what are some ways to go about doing that, assuming my prior form isn't demonic (say, a human)? I had thought about using the Savage Species rules to grant myself the Tenar'ri Subtype, but I wasn't quite sure. The idea here is to count as a demon for purposes of spells and effects, specifically the Extract Gift spell. Would that work? And what other methods might there be that don't involve screwing the character over in the long run?

JaronK

[Proud Tortoise]

Would a cessation of the considerable current outside interventions keeping it going count as outside intervention?

:smallconfused: Why would it need outside intervention to keep it going?

[tyckspoon]

:smallconfused: Why would it need outside intervention to keep it going?

In order to prevent either side from actually winning it or even just gaining too great an advantage, naturally. The Blood War draws off some of the energy and power of two really nasty places and pits it against each other, and a significant number of parties on the other Planes think that is preferable to having that energy devoted to messing with their own Planes instead. So they intervene to make sure the Blood War stays in its eternal stalemate.

[afroakuma]

So if Asmodeus did go to battle with the other Archdukes, the demons, archons and possibly eladrin might be able to wipe him out?

Not to mention one of the other Archdukes (probably not a Duke).


Moignos are floating 2-D calculators, right? And what's a coggle?

Coggles are awesome. Also known as gear spirits, they're cheerful gear-shaped beings who jump into the workings of Mechanus to help out where needed. As living gears. And they're not at all little; the smallest are a few hundred feet across, while the largest exceed a mile in diameter and are often used as flying transports for modron battalions.


Also, is it conceivable that the Blood War could ever be won by either side without outside intervention?

Depends how you define outside intervention; it's quite possible that some form of shakeup could take place, but in the grand scheme of things the two forces as they are remain quite balanced.

Come to think of it... *wanders off*


Alright, I'd like to jump into this thread based on some personal plans.

If I wanted to count as a demon, what are some ways to go about doing that, assuming my prior form isn't demonic (say, a human)?

Go chaotic evil, then die. :smalltongue:


The idea here is to count as a demon for purposes of spells and effects, specifically the Extract Gift spell. Would that work? And what other methods might there be that don't involve screwing the character over in the long run?

Nope. "Demon" isn't a rules construct; nothing can make you qualify except playing something defined as such already; that or your DM's approval.


:smallconfused: Why would it need outside intervention to keep it going?

It's the fear of many celestials that the Blood War will eventually wind to a close; thus, they stir the pot discreetly. Similarly, the yugoloths have it in mind to end the War on their terms, and keep unbalancing things to prevent any sort of ending that they didn't plan.

[Proud Tortoise]

Coggles are awesome. Also known as gear spirits, they're cheerful gear-shaped beings who jump into the workings of Mechanus to help out where needed.

I thought gear spirits were different, that they lived in the gears and defended them, like druids do with trees?

[TuggyNE]

They come in six known ranks: plumach, ferrumach, cuprilach, abiorach, argenach and aurumach.

So, the metals those stand for are ??, iron, copper, ??, silver, and gold?

[JaronK]

Lead is the first one (in latin it's plumbum), and that other missing one is probably mercury.

JaronK

[MeiLeTeng]

Lead is the first one (in latin it's plumbum), and that other missing one is probably mercury.

JaronK

That's what I'd guess: Mercury, they're described as having a "liquid, silver shine"

[Flickerdart]

Mercury is hydragyrum, so it doesn't seem a likely candidate for "abio".

[afroakuma]

Mercury is hydragyrum, so it doesn't seem a likely candidate for "abio".

It is actually mercury; popular thinking goes that it would have crossed into silver's territory had they used the full name, or sounded like some water elemental (hydrach?) had they shortened it, so instead they settled on "abio" to reflect the toxicity of mercury. Tin is the missing link in the order.

[TuggyNE]

Lead is the first one (in latin it's plumbum), and that other missing one is probably mercury.

Hmm, fair enough; I wasn't thinking of "plumbum" for some reason, though I did know of that name.


It is actually mercury; popular thinking goes that it would have crossed into silver's territory had they used the full name, or sounded like some water elemental (hydrach?) had they shortened it, so instead they settled on "abio" to reflect the toxicity of mercury.

OK, that works.


Tin is the missing link in the order.

By which you mean there should be a tinnish (stannic?) Rilmani, but there isn't?

[Kane0]

We know some of the results of the reckoning, but is there any kind of account of what happened immediately before or during it, or who instigated it?

[herrhauptmann]

Did I mention how Baalphegor is quite possibly the most terrifying known being in the Hells? If she's not a baatezu (and there's nothing saying she is; it's skated around quite thoroughly, in fact), then Asmodeus has no power to demote her, and if there's anyone in Hell with the knowledge of how to counter the Lord Below's authority, it's her.


Are there other devil varieties besides the Baatezu? If so, which books are they in? (I vaguely remember reading about some, perhaps in a Van Richten Guide)

Asmodeus can only demote Baatezu? I thought he could do for any Devil if he wished, not just the baatezu.

[Eldan]

It is actually mercury; popular thinking goes that it would have crossed into silver's territory had they used the full name, or sounded like some water elemental (hydrach?) had they shortened it, so instead they settled on "abio" to reflect the toxicity of mercury. Tin is the missing link in the order.

Makes me wonder why they didn't just go for a Mercurach. After all, Mercurium is a valid Latin name. Or maybe go alchemical and make an Azothach.

[Proud Tortoise]

It is actually mercury; popular thinking goes that it would have crossed into silver's territory had they used the full name, or sounded like some water elemental (hydrach?) had they shortened it, so instead they settled on "abio" to reflect the toxicity of mercury. Tin is the missing link in the order.
Maybe there are tin rilmani (stanarchs?) that are like devil archdukes or achon paragons. :smalltongue:


Coggles are awesome. Also known as gear spirits, they're cheerful gear-shaped beings who jump into the workings of Mechanus to help out where needed.

I thought gear spirits were different, that they lived in the gears and defended them, like druids do with trees?

[Xenogears]

Alright, I'd like to jump into this thread based on some personal plans.

If I wanted to count as a demon, what are some ways to go about doing that, assuming my prior form isn't demonic (say, a human)? I had thought about using the Savage Species rules to grant myself the Tenar'ri Subtype, but I wasn't quite sure. The idea here is to count as a demon for purposes of spells and effects, specifically the Extract Gift spell. Would that work? And what other methods might there be that don't involve screwing the character over in the long run?

JaronK

IIRC any outsider with the [evil] subtype counts as a fiend but I'm not sure if you can specifically change that to Demon.

[Eldan]

Maybe there are tin rilmani (stanarchs?) that are like devil archdukes or achon paragons. :smalltongue:

Hm. Difficult to say if Tin or Gold would be higher up in the hierarchy. Mythologically, Jupiter probably still outranks Sol. But alchemically, gold is very high up.

[Proud Tortoise]

Yeah, but we already know what a gold rilmani looks like, and it isn't a paragon. Tin is the only one left.

[ShadowFireLance]

Wow, That gave me a awesome Idea, A Universe without Asmodeas and the lords...that would be a awesome game.

What would a world without Asmodeas and the lords of the nine look like? Would Chaos overrun everything?

[Proud Tortoise]

Wow, That gave me a awesome Idea, A Universe without Asmodeas and the lords...that would be a awesome game.

What would a world without Asmodeas and the lords of the nine look like? Would Chaos overrun everything?

There would still be archons and modrons. Actually, I think modrons might go to war with demons to prevent the spread of chaos alongside the devils.

[Tzardok]

The key to recognizing if something is soulmade or not is to examine whether or not it can take on an advanced (or reduced) form by becoming "more" of its alignment/essence/what have you. Natural-born yugoloths typically fail to show potential (which is why yugoloths don't like procuring more that way). All the beings described, though, have some ability to evolve into more powerful versions of their type with increasing personal power and purity of essence; exemplars.


Thanks for the answer. But that opened the way for another question: Warriors of Heaven states, that eladrin and guardinals stay in the same form their whole life, and none of my 3.x sources sugests otherwise. Or do I have overlooked something?



Maybe there are tin rilmani (stanarchs?) that are like devil archdukes or achon paragons.

I think "arch rilmani" should be something outside of the metall system, maybe elixach (elixir being Arab for the philosopher's stone).

Another question: What do you think are the planar traits of the semielemental planes and the cordant planes?

[Eldan]

You probably overlooked that Warriors of Heaven is a quite bad book, overall :smallwink:

Edit: Quintessarch. Chrysopoarch. Magnumarch. Alkhaharch. Lapisarch.

[Proud Tortoise]

Edit: Quintessarch. Chrysopoarch. Magnumarch. Alkhaharch. Lapisarch.

:smallconfused: Eh?



I think "arch rilmani" should be something outside of the metall system, maybe elixach (elixir being Arab for the philosopher's stone).

Probably.


Another question: What do you think are the planar traits of the semielemental planes and the cordant planes?
Semielemental or quasi-demi-elemental (crystal, sparks, etc.)?
Cordant planes would be mildly [good, evil, lawful, chaotic] aligned, wouldn't they?

[Fable Wright]

Asmodeus would win in a throwdown between himself and Mephistopheles, mano a mano. That's not a fight he wants to have, though; in addition to how much it would probably tax him (exposing him to Baalzebul and any other dangerous upstarts), Asmodeus would have to deal with Baalphegor.

Did I mention how Baalphegor is quite possibly the most terrifying known being in the Hells? If she's not a baatezu (and there's nothing saying she is; it's skated around quite thoroughly, in fact), then Asmodeus has no power to demote her, and if there's anyone in Hell with the knowledge of how to counter the Lord Below's authority, it's her.

From all practical angles, Asmodeus has the resources to win a war against one or more Lords; possibly even all eight. The personal peril it would put him in to expend that much power trying to directly crush the archdevils would be beyond the pale, though, and the chances of a pissed-off Mrs. Phistopheles aren't friendly.

You mentioned earlier that you could put together a case for Baalphegor being a Baatorian. Could you share it?

Also, do you have any idea what Baalphegor's motives and goals are, or are they as obfuscated as Asmodeus's? And how could she be more terrifying than Asmodeus himself?

[Eldan]

:smallconfused: Eh?

The poster above me suggested elixarch, so I suggested a few more names for philosopher-stone based Rilmani.

[ShadowFireLance]

Afro:
Okay, Even with my good amount of Draconic Knowledge, I have failed to hunt down more then a few sentances on This subject, Can you help?

Who/What is Tiamat's Sister? The one said to have made the Orange Dragons? Io's first creation? I think the Name is Verel? (Spelling, not sure)

[Proud Tortoise]

Afro:
Okay, Even with my good amount of Draconic Knowledge, I have failed to hunt down more then a few sentances on This subject, Can you help?

Who/What is Tiamat's Sister? The one said to have made the Orange Dragons? Io's first creation? I think the Name is Verel? (Spelling, not sure)

Orange dragons? What are those?

[afroakuma]

By which you mean there should be a tinnish (stannic?) Rilmani, but there isn't?

Precisely. Had the line continued they probably would have included a stannach or stannumach eventually.


We know some of the results of the reckoning, but is there any kind of account of what happened immediately before or during it, or who instigated it?

Broad strokes, yes. It was instigated by Mephistopheles and Baalzebul, but the official first strike came from Zariel turning a massive Blood War army against Dis. It was nothing but war until Geryon and the Hag Countess turned on their allies and the Dark Nine revealed themselves and turned the pit fiends against the Lords of the Nine.


Are there other devil varieties besides the Baatezu? If so, which books are they in? (I vaguely remember reading about some, perhaps in a Van Richten Guide)

Oh sure. There are entities like bezekiras and kytons that are devils but not baatezu. Other than the baatorians, though, there's no broad classification of devil that is not baatezu, and baatorians as a class do not appear.


Asmodeus can only demote Baatezu? I thought he could do for any Devil if he wished, not just the baatezu.

"Devil" is usually a shorthand for "baatezu," because the difference in modern Hell is fairly academic and Asmodeus can kill a hellcat or chain devil at range with zero effort. He does not have lawful dominion over all things on the plane, though.


Hm. Difficult to say if Tin or Gold would be higher up in the hierarchy. Mythologically, Jupiter probably still outranks Sol. But alchemically, gold is very high up.

I would expect gold to win out, as the metals, not their mythological pals, are the key element.


There would still be archons and modrons. Actually, I think modrons might go to war with demons to prevent the spread of chaos alongside the devils.

Oh absolutely. They already do, in fact. Modrons have special weapons just for fighting demons. Law doesn't take chaos lying down.


Thanks for the answer. But that opened the way for another question: Warriors of Heaven

Is a terrible source. Very weakly written with poor production values. It suffers from wanting players to play celestials and being lazy about how to make that happen. It's an easy mistake for the writer to have made; eladrins don't adopt radically different forms (coure to bralani being the obvious size-based exception). Guardinals and eladrins are the embodiments of neutral good and chaotic good, respectively; they are the exemplars of those alignments.


I think "arch rilmani" should be something outside of the metall system, maybe elixach (elixir being Arab for the philosopher's stone).

I have my own notions (derived from alchemy) of how the rilmani leadership works.


Another question: What do you think are the planar traits of the semielemental planes and the cordant planes?

Well, as Inner Planes, the semielemental planes would have normal time, be alterable morphic, be of infinite size, and be mildly neutral-aligned. Minor positive-dominant or negative-dominant regions would crop up. Positive or negative magic would be enhanced, as would appropriate elemental magic (positive). On negative semi-elemental planes, elemental magic would be impeded. To properly model their traits, though, you'd need the suppressive traits from Planewalker's campaign setting.


You mentioned earlier that you could put together a case for Baalphegor being a Baatorian. Could you share it?

Well no, what I said was that I could make a case for her being a baatezu. The case for her being a baatorian is that she's an old native of Baator who has Asmodeus' respect and apprehension and has a personal connection to the methods of evil, and was also almost deliberately not referred to as a baatezu when the chance came up. She also shares their most important trait: scaring the high-ups.


Also, do you have any idea what Baalphegor's motives and goals are, or are they as obfuscated as Asmodeus's? And how could she be more terrifying than Asmodeus himself?

Zero. She's pretty secretive. All that's known for sure is that she has Hell's best interests at "heart" and associates Mephistopheles' continued existence with Hell's best interests.

How is she more terrifying than the Lord Below? Easy: she's got his respect and is called "one of his greatest assets." This is the guy who bleeds pit fiends, and when Baalphegor says "no," Asmodeus says "alright then," even if what she's telling him not to do is messing with a known and public threat to his throne. Imagine someone working for two enemy empires who has personally invented and shared with both designs for a superweapon. Imagine that someone openly informing each empire that she works for both and it's none of their business how or why. She's just plain spooky. If she is an ancient baatorian, then she's a member of a race that blatantly disturbs Asmodeus, and the only one to be walking about with any status and power.

[Proud Tortoise]

I have my own notions (derived from alchemy) of how the rilmani leadership works.


And that would be?...

[Eldan]

I was thinking over it on the train, today, and my idea was to make four high Rilmani, and call them the Nigredarch, Albedarch, Citrinitarch and Rubedarch, with the last one being unknown and mysterious.

[Proud Tortoise]

What are those names based on?

[Eldan]

Nigredo, Albedo, Citrinitas and Rubedo, Blackening, Whitening, Yellowing and Reddening or Putrefaction, Purification, Transmutation and Ascension are the four steps in the Magnum Opus, the creation of the Philosopher's Stone.

[Proud Tortoise]

Nigredo, Albedo, Citrinitas and Rubedo, Blackening, Whitening, Yellowing and Reddening or Putrefaction, Purification, Transmutation and Ascension are the four steps in the Magnum Opus, the creation of the Philosopher's Stone.

Cool. You seem to know a lot about alchemy...

[Eldan]

It came up in a lecture on the History of science, mostly the philosophy of it, and the chemicals that were invented. After that, it became a bit of a hobby and I went to read up on it.

[afroakuma]

Afro:
Okay, Even with my good amount of Draconic Knowledge, I have failed to hunt down more then a few sentances on This subject, Can you help?

Who/What is Tiamat's Sister? The one said to have made the Orange Dragons? Io's first creation? I think the Name is Verel? (Spelling, not sure)

Vorel. Tiamat killed her and tried to frame Bahamut for it.


And that would be?...


I was thinking over it on the train, today, and my idea was to make four high Rilmani, and call them the Nigredarch, Albedarch, Citrinitarch and Rubedarch, with the last one being unknown and mysterious.

That was a component; I had a longer thing to say, but stupid browser deleted it and I don't care to retype it right now. Short version: Opus, Four, Philosopher, Coniuncto. I may delve into it again later.

[Eldan]

Hm. Coniuncto is interesting. I was thinking of making that some kind of ceremony that they carry out between them.

[Proud Tortoise]

I may delve into it again later.

Please do!

[123456789blaaa]

Given how pathetically weak Doresain is, how did he retain control of his layer before Yeenoghu came?

[afroakuma]

Given how pathetically weak Doresain is, how did he retain control of his layer before Yeenoghu came?

Doresain wasn't always pathetically weak (actualy, he isn't now, either). Long ago, Yeenoghu went and kicked his teeth in; Doresain knelt to the Prince of Gnolls and Stupid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZUPCB9533Y) Stupid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpjyH-LkEAg) Violence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49j6_uk0g3k). The King of Ghouls eventually escaped and began building power on the Negative Energy Plane; when some stupid stupid people let him into the Material Plane, he established an undead kingdom using his superghouls and the fact that he wields a mace of disruption because Doresain don't care.

Unfortunately, Doresain came down with a case of that strange disease that tends to plague evil beings doing evil things, and a few rather unfortunately terminal seconds later found himself back in the Abyss where his old friend Captain Fuzzybritches was waiting. Doresain got himself good and stunted for his troubles; however, despite all the crap that befell him, his little vacation on the Material Plane gave him some leverage he'd never had before. Doresain started acquiring power. Between 3.0 and 3.5, Doresain acquired godhood. Not a lot, Just enough.

Doresain's quite powerful now (i.e. don't think he's still a piddly CR 10) but doesn't want to take on Yeenoghu and lose. He'll bide his time until he's sure he can safely break out from under the heel of the Prince of Gnolls for good.

[ShadowFireLance]

Mind sharing All you know about Vorel?

[afroakuma]

Mind sharing All you know about Vorel?

There's not much to share. Pretty much the sum of information on Vorel is that it was the first of Io's children, and that Tiamat killed it. Vorel is not even definitively referred to as being male or female, though it is strongly implied to be neither.

There was a theory advanced that the "sister" Tiamat slew for creating the false chromatics was in fact a trio of additional heads that the other five tore to shreds out of jealousy. You might enjoy that one.

[Larkas]

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539322/lets_make_some_new_vestiges&post_num=450#332055890) is some fanmade stuff about Vorel that I, personally, like a lot. Also, binder goodness!


Edit: Quintessarch. Chrysopoarch. Magnumarch. Alkhaharch. Lapisarch.

Allsparch? ... What? Someone had to say it! :smallredface:

[Jigokuro]

You are very good at seeding questions for yourself...

Oh absolutely. They already do, in fact. Modrons have special weapons just for fighting demons. Law doesn't take chaos lying down.
What kind of special weapons?

[rilmani leadership opinion/homebrew]
Well that came and when already, but I'd still like to post my vote for 'please do' (delve again later).

In the same vein; do you have any well constructed ideas about what Baalphegor aims to do? You've made it abundantly clear there is no canon for it but given your interest level in her I imagine you've got some pretty well done homebrew story. I know this is meant to be a primarily factual Q&A, but I'm pretty sure a lot of us would like this.

[ShadowFireLance]

There's not much to share. Pretty much the sum of information on Vorel is that it was the first of Io's children, and that Tiamat killed it. Vorel is not even definitively referred to as being male or female, though it is strongly implied to be neither.

There was a theory advanced that the "sister" Tiamat slew for creating the false chromatics was in fact a trio of additional heads that the other five tore to shreds out of jealousy. You might enjoy that one.


Well, I already knew that, Dang it, I wanted more...V.V
I personally dislike the Trio of heads...Though, In my personal Floof, Tiamat has 10 Heads.
Red, Blue, Green, Black, White, Purple, Brown, Grey, Orange, Rust

Though, That Vestige, I cannot belive I has not seen that before. Thankies!

[Proud Tortoise]

Well, I already knew that, Dang it, I wanted more...V.V
I personally dislike the Trio of heads...Though, In my personal Floof, Tiamat has 10 Heads.
Red, Blue, Green, Black, White, Purple, Brown, Grey, Orange, Rust

Though, That Vestige, I cannot belive I has not seen that before. Thankies!

Well, you probably already know that Io was not impressed with Tiamat for killing Vorel...

[ShadowFireLance]

Well, you probably already know that Io was not impressed with Tiamat for killing Vorel...

Of course, I know a lot about Tiamat...:smallcool:

[afroakuma]

You are very good at seeding questions for yourself...

:smallcool:


What kind of special weapons?

Well, one example would be the famed and highly desirable modron heartspear, a magical armament used by dozen-units in the modrons' Blood War army. Modron heartspears have an identical enchantment anywhere in the planes when used against tanar'ri, and it's a pretty strong one. They can cut through the DR of any tanar'ri short of the higher-end demon princes. Modrons send efficient and very fast cleanup teams to grab heartspears off of battlefields where they fall, so there are very few on the open market and a lot of mages who'd love to study them.

[Gralamin]

Well, one example would be the famed and highly desirable modron heartspear, a magical armament used by dozen-units in the modrons' Blood War army. Modron heartspears have an identical enchantment anywhere in the planes when used against tanar'ri, and it's a pretty strong one. They can cut through the DR of any tanar'ri short of the higher-end demon princes. Modrons send efficient and very fast cleanup teams to grab heartspears off of battlefields where they fall, so there are very few on the open market and a lot of mages who'd love to study them.

Is it known if there is something special about Tanar'ri that allow Modron's to do this, or is it possible that they could create similar weapons against other forces? Against Slaadi for example, or even against other lawful creatures?

[afroakuma]

Is it known if there is something special about Tanar'ri that allow Modron's to do this, or is it possible that they could create similar weapons against other forces? Against Slaadi for example, or even against other lawful creatures?

It is not; the theory goes, however, that heartspears are made from baatezu punished by immersion in Primus' energy pool that are not recovered before Primus tires of them. If that is true, then it may be a property of the Blood War hate, or it may be something requiring the soul of a planar creature across the ethical axis from the target being.

[Eldan]

How does Primus get authority over Baatezu like that? Shouldn't they be punished by Hell?

[Proud Tortoise]

I may delve into it again later.
Pleeeease?

[123456789blaaa]

Doresain wasn't always pathetically weak (actualy, he isn't now, either). Long ago, Yeenoghu went and kicked his teeth in; Doresain knelt to the Prince of Gnolls and Stupid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZUPCB9533Y) Stupid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpjyH-LkEAg) Violence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49j6_uk0g3k). The King of Ghouls eventually escaped and began building power on the Negative Energy Plane; when some stupid stupid people let him into the Material Plane, he established an undead kingdom using his superghouls and the fact that he wields a mace of disruption because Doresain don't care.

Unfortunately, Doresain came down with a case of that strange disease that tends to plague evil beings doing evil things, and a few rather unfortunately terminal seconds later found himself back in the Abyss where his old friend Captain Fuzzybritches was waiting. Doresain got himself good and stunted for his troubles; however, despite all the crap that befell him, his little vacation on the Material Plane gave him some leverage he'd never had before. Doresain started acquiring power. Between 3.0 and 3.5, Doresain acquired godhood. Not a lot, Just enough.

Doresain's quite powerful now (i.e. don't think he's still a piddly CR 10) but doesn't want to take on Yeenoghu and lose. He'll bide his time until he's sure he can safely break out from under the heel of the Prince of Gnolls for good.

I get that Yeenoghu made Doresain his servant but how exactly did he lower Doresains power when doing so?

[Bronk]

How does Primus get authority over Baatezu like that? Shouldn't they be punished by Hell?

It looks like the Baatezu do it to themselves... the dragon article (Dragon 272, p76) says that a powerful Baatezu would throw pesky upstarts into the pool as punishment.

Maybe it goes back to what Afrokuma posted earlier, that it takes energy to perform a demotion. That might make this method of punishment easier, and I suppose if it results in a demon killing weapon, it would even help the blood war...

[Chilingsworth]

Speaking of Baatezu demotions: I thought the act of demoting a devil freed up spiritual energy, rather than costing it. Is it just that demoting a unique devil costs more energy than it releases, because they can resist? Or was my impression (derived from Fiendish Codex 2) was wrong?

[afroakuma]

How does Primus get authority over Baatezu like that? Shouldn't they be punished by Hell?


It looks like the Baatezu do it to themselves... the dragon article (Dragon 272, p76) says that a powerful Baatezu would throw pesky upstarts into the pool as punishment.

Voila.


I get that Yeenoghu made Doresain his servant but how exactly did he lower Doresains power when doing so?

If you mean by which method, who knows. :smalltongue: On a fundamental level, though, capitulating to another being on the Outer Planes is a meaningful act that ties your power to theirs (hence Yeenoghu can summon ghouls).


Speaking of Baatezu demotions: I thought the act of demoting a devil freed up spiritual energy, rather than costing it. Is it just that demoting a unique devil costs more energy than it releases, because they can resist? Or was my impression (derived from Fiendish Codex 2) was wrong?

The act of demoting a devil is like digging for gold in that respect. There's gold... but then there's personal fatigue and weariness from the dig. The more gold you're trying to dig for, the more time you'll need to spend in the mine and the more tired you'll be.

In any event, reading over that section of the FCII, they made quite a few mistakes (chain devils are most assuredly not part of the hierarchy, they made that one clear across two and a half editions). My opinion of the book sinks ever lower. :smallsigh:

[123456789blaaa]

If you mean by which method, who knows :smalltongue:. On a fundamental level, though, capitulating to another being on the Outer Planes is a meaningful act that ties your power to theirs (hence Yeenoghu can summon ghouls).

Why do you think the writers chose to have Yeenoghu invade and make Doresain his servant? I mean...ghouls and gnolls don't have much in common.

EDIT: oh wait...carrion eating D'OH!.

[Fable Wright]

In any event, reading over that section of the FCII, they made quite a few mistakes (chain devils are most assuredly not part of the hierarchy, they made that one clear across two and a half editions). My opinion of the book sinks ever lower. :smallsigh:

What's the deal with them, and other Devils that don't have the Summon Devil ability? Are there any Tanar'ri that can't summon others of their kind?

And why can Evil exemplars summon others of their kind, but Good exemplars cannot?

[Fortuna]

Can you please give me a brief description of the intermediate Lawful planes and their inhabitants? I'm not sure what their modern name is, but in my AD&D player's handbook they're called Arcadia and Acheron - they lie between Mechanus and Celestia and Mechanus and Baator, respectively.

[Proud Tortoise]

Can you please give me a brief description of the intermediate Lawful planes and their inhabitants? I'm not sure what their modern name is, but in my AD&D player's handbook they're called Arcadia and Acheron - they lie between Mechanus and Celestia and Mechanus and Baator, respectively.

Those are the correct names. Link? Acheron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) et Arcadia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29), unless you want to know something specific.

[Coidzor]

It is not; the theory goes, however, that heartspears are made from baatezu punished by immersion in Primus' energy pool that are not recovered before Primus tires of them. If that is true, then it may be a property of the Blood War hate, or it may be something requiring the soul of a planar creature across the ethical axis from the target being.

...What do you mean by Primus tiring of them?

Edit: What contenders come to mind for the greatest wrongdoing on a planar scale or on the scale of the Great Wheel as a whole? Greatest Crime, even?

[Lord_Gareth]

Acheron has no architects. None of the Outer Planes do. Look, if you don't like canon, then you don't like canon (Asmodeus only knows that I hate quite a bit of it) but stop acting like just because the canon you're learning here is something you dislike it must be wrong and non-canon.

Yes, Acheron looks a little Chaotic on the outside. You know what, from the outside Carceri looks a little lawful. But Acheron isn't chaotic. Acheron is battle without resolution, law without harmony, order without structure, misery without hope, death without glory, unity without individuality. Acheron is not a plane that hates you; indeed, it is Acheron's utter indifference to you that eventually kills you. Acheron is the grinding monotony of hopelessness, and it is the weary horror of cynicism so great that it consumes morality. The sergeant who grows weary of fighting corruption and embraces bribery goes to Acheron; the office drone who takes out his misery on others by providing them barriers to actual help goes to Acheron. It is the punishment for which there was no crime, the penalty without a violation, the monolithic crushing indifference of Law with no moral compass, of conflict without belief, of tyranny without vanity.

Acheron doesn't hate you.

It wants you to die anyway.

This might be relevant to you, Random_Person.

[enderlord99]

...What do you mean by Primus tiring of them?

Edit: What contenders come to mind for the greatest wrongdoing on a planar scale or on the scale of the Great Wheel as a whole? Greatest Crime, even?

The fall of the baatezu.

[Flickerdart]

Edit: What contenders come to mind for the greatest wrongdoing on a planar scale or on the scale of the Great Wheel as a whole? Greatest Crime, even?
I'd have to say Complete Psionic. :smallbiggrin:

[Go!Go!Go!]

I'd have to say Complete Psionic. :smallbiggrin:

well considering what happened to the cosmology there's a good case for 4e being a planar crime against humanity

[afroakuma]

[rilmani leadership opinion/homebrew]

Right then, let's get on with this one. Reminder: this is not canonical.

The rilmani are "led" by a governing parliament of sorts, known as the Opus. The Opus is composed of elite members of the regular castes of the rilmani, and typically led by the aurumachs. The work of the Opus is set by the symbolic leader of the rilmani, the Philosopher, who otherwise involves itself little beyond dwelling on the nature of Balance as it pertains to the Great Wheel. The Opus is led in great questions by the Primach and the Hestach.

The Primach is usually an elite aurumach or argenach. The holder of this office is charged with presenting a question and problématique to the Opus, and with advocating toward the substance of that question. The Hestach is usually an elite abiorach or cuprilach. This is the Primach's opposite, charged with breaking down the problématique and attacking the question.

Adjunct to the Opus are the Tetrachs, the unique rilmani who hold the Four Offices: Negredach, Albedach, Citrinach and Rubedach. The Tetrachs are responsible for selecting a Philosopher, directing the actions of the rilmani, and protecting and preserving the Balance and their people. Each has a unique role, nature and responsibilities.

• The Negredach represents militant neutrality, the destruction of imbalance. The Negredach selects the Hestach, commands the loyalty of many cuprilachs, and presents the first and most torturous trial to candidates for leadership. The Negredach defends the absolute center to the exclusion of all else. It is sometimes said that the Negredach is the proxy of Evil.

• The Albedach represents deliberative neutrality, the calculation of balance. The Albedach is the arbiter of the Opus, deciding when both sides have spoken an equal piece and calling the vote. It presents the second and most complex trial to candidates for leadership. The Albedach upholds the principle of counterbalance, that things which have equivalent opposites are welcome and accounted for in the Balance. It is sometimes said that the Albedach is the proxy of Good.

• The Citrinach represents idealized neutrality, the commitment to balance. The Citrinach selects the Primach and presents the third and most nebulous trial to candidates for leadership. The Citrinach seeks Balance or the potential for Balance in all things, as well as the strength of that potential and the nature it might take. It is sometimes said that the Citrinach is the proxy of Chaos.

• The Rubedach represents enlightened neutrality, the comprehension of balance and imbalance. The Rubedach confirms rilmani to the Four Offices and to the role of Philosopher and presents the final and most secret trial to candidates for leadership. The Rubedach believes in a pure form of Balance which can be objectively viewed and assessed. It is sometimes said that the Rubedach is the proxy of Law.

The Philosopher is an odd form of leader, for its chief role is completed upon taking office. The Philosopher analyzes the Balance of the Great Wheel and gives the Opus the mandate from which it is to act, based upon the Philosopher's view of the Balance. Thereafter, the Philosopher often dwells apart, considering the mysteries of the multiverse and watching carefully for potential ripples in the cosmic order. The Philosopher's few dictates to the Opus after laying out its original position are very rare and almost always closely heeded.

It is unknown what motivates the rilmani to choose a new Philosopher, for there are many who survive that have left the office or been expelled from it. Death is not the determining factor (though it certainly guarantees removal from office), nor is cause (Philosophers who by all accounts were perfectly competent have been expelled from office) nor any pattern of time that can be discerned (some have served for millennia, some for a day).

Above the Opus, the Tetrachs and the Philosopher is/are another, a last, a union of all things the rilmani hold most important (some would say a union of all that is): the Coniunctio. This is the term that former Tetrachs and Philosophers have let slip on rare occasion; it is unknown whether it refers to an individual or a group, or what the specific nature of the Coniunctio is. The general understanding is that the Coniunctio is the force behind the power of the rilmani, the rectifier of threats to the Center from the Center, and the ultimate insurer of the continued functioning of the divided and often mysterious rilmani leadership and the race as a whole. Some say the Coniunctio is a group of retired Tetrachs and/or Philosophers; others that it is the Lady of Pain, or some other entity that is not a rilmani.


What's the deal with them, and other Devils that don't have the Summon Devil ability?

Kytons aren't baatezu; they're just "devils."


Are there any Tanar'ri that can't summon others of their kind?

Goristros cannot.


And why can Evil exemplars summon others of their kind, but Good exemplars cannot?

It's not really referred to in fluff; I would guess it has to do with good outsiders intent on limiting their interference on the Prime and evil outsiders intent on expanding it. I should point out that rilmani and slaad can both summon their own kind.


...What do you mean by Primus tiring of them?

Well, having a foreign soul buzzing around his energy pool would be annoying, and if the lord who originally cast it there forgot to get it back, Primus would likely decide that enough is enough. (This all assumes the story's kosher in the first place.)


Edit: What contenders come to mind for the greatest wrongdoing on a planar scale or on the scale of the Great Wheel as a whole? Greatest Crime, even?

Vecna kicking in Sigil's doors. :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

^ <- It's...it's beautiful T_T

The Monarch of the Triple Realm is famed for his taste in women, but also his greed. Does he have a favored or prized possession? Are there any artifacts associated with him?

[JackRackham]

Oh well, that would be telling! :smallwink:

I'll give you some ideas as to who it isn't, though:

• It's not a baatezu, or any Archduke of Hell/Lord of the Nine.

• It's not a monster of legend.

• It's not a tanar'ri, or any Demon Prince/Demon Lord.

• It's not from the Far Realm.

• It's not from the Inner Planes.

• It's not a god.

• Most of the forces of evil trying to seek it out haven't any idea what it is.
So, it's the MitD then?

[Proud Tortoise]

The Prisoner of Elysium? :smallconfused:

[ShadowFireLance]

The Prisoner of Elysium? :smallconfused:

Exactly what I was going to ask.

[Answerer]

MitD = Monster in the Dark, the OotS character. This guy: :mitd:

[Proud Tortoise]

MitD = Monster in the Dark, the OotS character. This guy: :mitd:

And he would be in Elysium for what reason?

[Answerer]

He clearly isn't, I think the idea was more that the list of things that Afro said definitely weren't the Prisoner left the MitD available as an option. Except, of course, that the Prisoner of Elysium is imprisoned in Elysium.

[Proud Tortoise]

Here's what I'm trying to say:

WHO OR WHAT IS THIS PRISONER OF WHICH YOU SPEAK?

[123456789blaaa]

Here's what I'm trying to say:

WHO OR WHAT IS THIS PRISONER OF WHICH YOU SPEAK?

No one knows.

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[enderlord99]

Here's what I'm trying to say:

WHO OR WHAT IS THIS PRISONER OF WHICH YOU SPEAK?

I don't think there's canon for it.

[Proud Tortoise]

:smallfurious: Well then why do you use the phrase Prisoner of Elysium if you don't know what it even bloody well means!

[123456789blaaa]

:smallfurious: Well then why do you use the phrase Prisoner of Elysium if you don't know what it even bloody well means!

Because it's a prisoner. Of Elysium. What else would we call it?

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[enderlord99]

Because it's a prisoner. Of Elysium. What else would we call it?

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

That white text is quite rude. Please stop.

[123456789blaaa]

That white text is quite rude. Please stop.

I was just trying to have a little fun. A :smalltongue: smiley would have given things away. I apoligize if I went over the line.

[123456789blaaa]

I posted the white text as a sort of "wink wink nudge nudge". I assumed someone else would give the answer as it's a simple matter of quoting from earlier in the thread.

[afroakuma]

The Monarch of the Triple Realm is famed for his taste in women, but also his greed. Does he have a favored or prized possession? Are there any artifacts associated with him?

His sword, and no.


Here's what I'm trying to say:

WHO OR WHAT IS THIS PRISONER OF WHICH YOU SPEAK?

The Prisoner of Elysium is a being of evil contained and concealed by the guardinals on Belierin, the third layer of Elysium.

Anyone have any thoughts on the rilmani thing?

[Coidzor]

Anyone have any thoughts on the rilmani thing?

It's beautiful. Well, that's less thoughts and more a thought. :smallredface:

[TuggyNE]

Anyone have any thoughts on the rilmani thing?

It was immensely inspiring but I couldn't articulate my praise well enough to post.

[123456789blaaa]

It was immensely inspiring but I couldn't articulate my praise well enough to post.

Same here.

[Answerer]

The homebrew was awesome. I like the alchemical references and I love how weird they are. You did an excellent job of showing them as beings that have priorities that are very different from that of any mortal.

I would comment that the Albedach seem more "law-ish" than "good-ish", but the Rubedach are definitely also "law-ish." I suppose seeing both sides of things is a "good-ish" behavior.

[afroakuma]

I would comment that the Albedach seem more "law-ish" than "good-ish", but the Rubedach are definitely also "law-ish." I suppose seeing both sides of things is a "good-ish" behavior.

The Albedach tries to find a reason for things to be part of the Balance; it's the includer, the equalizer, the fair one. Remember, it's how Balance thinks of Good, not necessarily what Good actually is.

[Jigokuro]

The Albedach tries to find a reason for things to be part of the Balance; it's the includer, the equalizer, the fair one. Remember, it's how Balance thinks of Good, not necessarily what Good actually is.

Perfect sense. Also backed up by the LG concordant plane's description. (well, in that is it is LG and not straight L.) The Rubedach is much more pure law. :smallsmile:

[Fortuna]

What is weather like out on the planes, both Inner and Outer? I've heard of the astral wind and the ether cyclone, but I'm not familiar with any unusual weather patterns of the outer planes from a canonical source. Does Mechanus have anything so unpredictable as rain or wind? Does the Abyss suffer rains of blood? Does Celestia ever see anything but perfect sunshine?

I realize that this is a somewhat broad topic. I'm especially interested in the weather of the Lawful planes - Celestia, Arcadia, Mechanus, Acheron and Hell. Any interesting tidbits that you might have are, as always, much appreciated.

[Chilingsworth]

IIRC, Arcadia actually has a quartet of regulators controlling its weather. Their bases are aranged around a shpere, half of which emits light and half of which doesn't. This sphere causes the perfect 12 hour night/day cycles of the plane. The lords (iirc they're named after the four cardinal directions/ four winds) ensure that the gardens of Arcadia have the perfect amount of wind, sun, clouds, and rain.

[Proud Tortoise]

It was immensely inspiring but I couldn't articulate my praise well enough to post.

I concur. Get it, 'cause concur, concordance, hnaha...

[afroakuma]

What is weather like out on the planes, both Inner and Outer? I've heard of the astral wind and the ether cyclone, but I'm not familiar with any unusual weather patterns of the outer planes from a canonical source. Does Mechanus have anything so unpredictable as rain or wind? Does the Abyss suffer rains of blood? Does Celestia ever see anything but perfect sunshine?

I realize that this is a somewhat broad topic. I'm especially interested in the weather of the Lawful planes - Celestia, Arcadia, Mechanus, Acheron and Hell. Any interesting tidbits that you might have are, as always, much appreciated.

Well, Celestia actually has a lot of really cold places. It's a nice cold, mind you, as such things go, but being a mountain there are plenty of clouds and fog, as well as areas of snowfall. Mostly sunny, though.

Arcadia, as Chillingsworth mentioned, has "perfect" weather, controlled by the four Storm Kings, who determine exactly how much sunlight, cloud, rain and thunder are needed and supply them "perfectly." It's always described as pleasant, no matter what it is, because that's just how Arcadia goes.

Neither Mechanus nor Acheron appear to have any conventional weather to speak of, though on Mechanus there is likely a regulatory process of some sort to contend with the water cycle. Acheron may have small, localized storms, but in general it's just the void, the cubes and the thundering.

Baator has weather... oftentimes it doesn't know when to quit having weather. Minauros is constantly suffering rains; Stygia is occasionally blasted with a freezing windstorm; Cania is occasionally not blasted with a freezing windstorm. There are poisonous clouds that slither through the skies of Maladomini and Malbolge, and deep rolling darknesses that hiss and crackle in the heart of Nessus.

[Chilingsworth]

Doesn't Avernus also have occasional (or not so occasional) rains of fireballs? Or does that not count?

[Deadline]

Here's what I'm trying to say:

WHO OR WHAT IS THIS PRISONER OF WHICH YOU SPEAK?

It's the evil half of the now dual-being that was once a handsome trickster Baernoloth that convinced the multiverse that it was a benevolent Sun deity. Belief on the planes is a dangerous thing, it shapes reality. And so now we have a clever lie made real (the benevolent Sun deity), and its (now divine) evil parent-counterpart (which has been locked up for fear of the truth becoming known).

But the faithful know the truth. Free the Burning Hate!

*This message has been paid for by the Church of the Burning Hate

**This is also complete bunk. The Prisoner of Elysium is intentionally left to be a blank slate, to be filled in as you choose.

[Eldan]

Celestia also has one layer (the lowest) that is a perpetual, beautiful calm night at the beach.

[afroakuma]

Celestia also has one layer (the lowest) that is a perpetual, beautiful calm night at the beach.

Yeah I could handle that. Shame I'd be too busy fizzing and bursting into flame.

Here's something I did in another thread that might be fun to have here:

Celestials come from seven different planes; the traits of the seven should come through in an aasimar's bloodline. Here are some suggested traits by plane.

Arcadia
• Marble-smooth skin that is shiny and cool to the touch.
• Perfectly symmetrical features and hair; trivial alterations either mirror themselves or remove themselves over a short period of time.
• Beautiful, velvety ebon skin.
• Pearly-white sclera with jet-black irises.
• Hair or eyes that change from white to black to mark the time of day.
• Muscular, rock-hard forearms, calves, hands and feet.
• Aura of calm and peace/condescension and smugness.

Celestia
• Golden or silvery skin.
• Radiant, glowing hair.
• Vestigial ivory down around the ears and the nape of the neck.
• Brilliant, shining eyes and perfect, pearly teeth.
• Solid neck, narrow nose and strong, square chin.
• Nebula of soft, subtle light.
• Aura of awakening and alertness/startlement and discomfort.

Bytopia
• Golden or silvery irises that seem to permanently look toward the horizon.
• Unblinking eyes not bothered by weather or bright light.
• Sharper and more alert after exertion, instead of fatigued.
• No wrinkles, never sweats.
• Dragonlike scales running down the spine.
• Dusky or dark metallic skin that sparkles like powdered diamond.
• Aura of warmth and inclusion/fatigue and privation.

Elysium
• Covered in fine, silky fur.
• Surrounded in shimmering heat that is pleasantly warm/searingly uncomfortable.
• Halo of soft prismatic light.
• Reminds others of a familiar, comforting, household animal.
• Skin glows colors to reflect passionate emotions.
• Size and coloration shift subtly to match gravity of the situation: smaller, pale and rose-tinted when happy and peaceful; larger, darker and golden when angry or serious.
• Aura of gladness and ease/worry and guilt.

The Beastlands
• Pads on hands and feet and/or talons/claws.
• Big, dark mammalian eyes (dog, wolf, bear, bull).
• Frequently enveloped in a ray of sunlight breaking through the clouds/ray of moonlight peeking through canopy/starlight filtering through a small crack.
• Unique activity cycle (extreme morning person/late afternoons and the crack of dawn/totally nocturnal).
• Enlarged, furry ears, whiskers and a graceful, animal lope.
• Eyes glow, coloration changes with the cycle of the day (morning, dawn/dusk, night).
• Aura of life and instinct/encroachment and uncertainty.

Arborea
• Elfin eyes, subtle perfumed odor and slightly color-tinted skin.
• Often surrounded by a breeze or wind of spring, summer, fall or winter.
• Sharply angled ears (moreso than elves) and ripple-patterned, colored eyes.
• Trace swirls of minuscule prismatic butterfly scales.
• Clothing and hair self-mends, slow and unnoticed, and acquires subtle complexities.
• Striking looks or grace of movement causes heads to turn, artists to find inspiration.
• Aura of fascination and passion/confusion and distraction.

Ysgard
• Physically massive, yet graceful.
• Hands seem to meld into the haft of a weapon.
• Many superficial scars that seem to add charisma, not disfigure.
• Emotions are accompanied by sudden winds, change in temperature.
• Brassy or steel tint to skin and/or eyes.
• Clear, trumpetlike voice; less affected by cold or heat than most.
• Aura of exuberance and chance/folly and risk.

If you want to generate a random aasimar with the above, do 1d8 for plane (roll of 8 indicates dual ancestry, roll twice), then 1d8 for characteristic (roll of 8 indicates slightly stronger celestial features, roll twice). If you want a really exotic one, do 1d10 for one or both of the above and treat 9s and 10s as 8s. For the "aura" effects, the two listed effects are for good and neutral beings/evil beings respectively. None of the above have mechanical effects... but they could if you wanted to add them.

Also, the current rilmani leadership consists of:


{table=head]Office|Holder
Primach|Astromedes
Hestach|Rhazes
Negredach|Magnomelan
Albedach|Socras
Citrinach|Ostanes
Rubedach|Zorosimon
Philosopher|Panasseios[/table]

[ShadowFireLance]

Hey Afro, I think I have a Question that You might NOT be able to Answer.
What Type of Dragon was Dragotha Originally?
:smallamused:

[Answerer]

Hey Afro, I think I have a Question that You might NOT be able to Answer.
What's special about that? Most of your questions have been unanswerable.

[ShadowFireLance]

What's special about that? Most of your questions have been unanswerable.

But this one might actually have one? :smallannoyed:

[afroakuma]

Hey Afro, I think I have a Question that You might NOT be able to Answer.
What Type of Dragon was Dragotha Originally?
:smallamused:

In the White Plume Mountain web enhancement, he was black. In the Age of Worms adventure path, he was red. In his original appearance in D&D lore, he was red. Red it is.

[123456789blaaa]

In your opinion, what sort of abilities would a Chosen of the Great Mother have (if such a thing existed)?

[Flickerdart]

Clearly, red is the new black.

[Chilingsworth]

In your opinion, what sort of abilities would a Chosen of the Great Mother have (if such a thing existed)?

I'd guess among other things, some sort of ability to kill beholderkin (maybe not including true beholders.) Beholders hate "mockeries" of themselves. IIRC, they got this attitude from the Great Mother.

[LOTRfan]

I really like what you did with the Aasimars. Any chance I can ask you to do something similar with the Tieflings/Chaonds/Zenythri?

[Proud Tortoise]

Hey, your avatar is a Sauran. That's what a sauran is, Afro!

[LOTRfan]

You mean the Saurials from Forgotten Realms? Because in that case, yes! :smallbiggrin:

It's a Hornhead, specifically.

[Proud Tortoise]

Oh.

.......

No, I meant saurans, the ancient spacefaring race that no one seems to have heard of but me.

[Eldest]

Oh.

.......

No, I meant saurans, the ancient spacefaring race that no one seems to have heard of but me.

I am literally posting in this thread to say that I've heard of them, though another game called Conspiracy X. Rich setting, very creepy.

Also (other reason I'm posting) is there a size limit on Spelljammer ships? Either absolute or practical? I think I read one story of somebody mounting an engine on an asteroid and using that: could you do that with a moon? A planet?

[Proud Tortoise]

Dwarves carve their ships from asteroids, but you'd need a really powerful engine to do that with a planet.

[Lapak]

I am literally posting in this thread to say that I've heard of them, though another game called Conspiracy X. Rich setting, very creepy.

Also (other reason I'm posting) is there a size limit on Spelljammer ships? Either absolute or practical? I think I read one story of somebody mounting an engine on an asteroid and using that: could you do that with a moon? A planet?(2e Spelljammer ahead.) There is always an upper limit (except for THE Spelljammer) but it varies depending on the type of engine. The most commonly-used helms top out at 100 tons; dwarves use Forges which run off of Industrial Dwarf power - seriously, you can't operate the Forges without dwarves and they do it by mining and crafting - and range from 100 to 700 tons. I don't know that there's a RAW way to go higher than that.

Except maybe an Artifurnace; they have no listed upper limit now that I look them up.

EDIT: For clarification, 'tons' in Spelljammer turns have nothing to do with weight. A Spelljammer ton = 100 cubic yards of volume.

[Eldest]

Ok, next (few) questions, where can I find info on Artifurnaces and "THE Spelljammer"? Unless you want to just give me the info on them. In fact, where are the specifications of spelljammer design?

[Lapak]

Ok, next (few) questions, where can I find info on Artifurnaces and "THE Spelljammer"? Unless you want to just give me the info on them. In fact, where are the specifications of spelljammer design?Well, I headed mine with (2e) because I'm reading out of the Concordance of Arcane Space, one of the books that came in the original 2nd edition Spelljammer box set (which also had a map layout of the Spelljammer, which is a legendary, possibly living ship that weighs in at 1.5 million tons.) It has specs for building ships and the other book in the set (the Lorebook of the Void) has stats for existing designs.

However, I'd be surprised if afroakuma isn't along shortly with more up-to-date sources. :smallredface:

That said, an Artifurnace is a spelljamming engine that runs by drawing energy from a major artifact. They have to be specifically designed and constructed around a particular artifact, and have the (extremely significant) drawbacks that
- any curse, ego domination, or other effect that owning an artifact would have affects the operator of the ship, and
- any being associated with the artifact will probably come after it. (Building an Artifurnace around the Cudgel of St. Cuthbert and then going into Greyspace may not be your best plan ever.)

[Eldest]

Well, I headed mine with (2e) because I'm reading out of the Concordance of Arcane Space, one of the books that came in the original 2nd edition Spelljammer box set (which also had a map layout of the Spelljammer, which is a legendary, possibly living ship that weighs in at 1.5 million tons.) It has specs for building ships and the other book in the set (the Lorebook of the Void) has stats for existing designs.

However, I'd be surprised if afroakuma isn't along shortly with more up-to-date sources. :smallredface:

That said, an Artifurnace is a spelljamming engine that runs by drawing energy from a major artifact. They have to be specifically designed and constructed around a particular artifact, and have the (extremely significant) drawbacks that
- any curse, ego domination, or other effect that owning an artifact would have affects the operator of the ship, and
- any being associated with the artifact will probably come after it. (Building an Artifurnace around the Cudgel of St. Cuthbert and then going into Greyspace may not be your best plan ever.)

Is the Artifact destroyed while being used as fuel? And I was under the impression that any given god like, say, St. Cuthbert, only mattered within a sphere. So if you got his Cudgel and rabbited right then, as long as you never came back you'd be safe?

And any more specifics on THE Spelljammer? Other than it's legendary? What kind of legends? Any detailed? Any cool features, other than it's possibly living and frickin' big?

Edit: Also, I think there's a page limit of 50 pages on threads, so you might need to make a second thread soon.

[Lapak]

Is the Artifact destroyed while being used as fuel?No, that's the big appeal of an Artifurnace. A Furnace burns magic items but destroys them in the process; a spelljamming helm needs a caster to give up their spells for the day to power it; a lifejammer kills people; and so on. An Artifurnace provides a high-powered engine that just goes and goes forever.
And I was under the impression that any given god like, say, St. Cuthbert, only mattered within a sphere. So if you got his Cudgel and rabbited right then, as long as you never came back you'd be safe?St. Cuthbert can't touch you directly in a sphere where he isn't worshiped, but you'd better be ready for all his followers and/or Outer Planes allies to hassle you. In many ways you'd be better off picking a non-God-related artifact, since most of them have fewer options beyond coming after you directly. Also, that still leaves the artifact's own influence; in 2e, putting St. Cuthbert's artifact in your ship would eventually turn you into a fanatic Lawful Good worshiper of St. Cuthbert who was determined to convert everyone you met.


And any more specifics on THE Spelljammer? Other than it's legendary? What kind of legends? Any detailed? Any cool features, other than it's possibly living and frickin' big?It moves by itself, it's got a whole city on it, it comes and goes between spheres, it moves way way way faster than anything that size should, it's intentionally left vague in the setting books. It's basically the megadungeon of the setting, at least in 2nd edition; the Castle Greyhawk or Undermountain of Wildspace. Hundreds of people and groups have tried to take control of it; the remnants of their expeditions litter the surface and bowels of the ship.

[ShadowFireLance]

I've got a 2nd Question, That I think might Challenge you. :smallwink:

Who has more Plot's/Webs/Etc of plans Going at one time?
Graz'zt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KUJE2xs-RE) or Asmodeas?

[afroakuma]

Fifty pages and the Spectre of St. Jude looms large. Time to pack it on up and move to a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14742237#post14742237).