afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[afroakuma]

Hello the boards!

I'm bored and have several hours to kill. If you have any questions related to life on the Planes (whether 2E Planescape, 3.5 or my own personal canon) I'm open for business until further notice and will be watching this thread for a while. Bring it on! :smallcool:

[Snowbluff]

If I am in a weightless plane, do I need to hold the black holes I am storing there together with glue?

[afroakuma]

Nope. Gravity can exist within a weightless plane, it is simply not inherent to the matter of the plane itself. Even if that were not the case, the result of the forces that created the black hole in the first place would remain a mass sufficiently dense and compacted as to hold itself together in the absence of an external, separating force.

[AuraTwilight]

Describe the Ordial Plane.

[Morcleon]

1. What does the edge of a demiplane/non-infinite plane look like?

2. What would happen if you put the tarrasque on the Positive Energy Plane? Would it die by healing? Would it be caught in an endless loop of exploding every so often, only to be reformed six seconds later?

3. What does a plane look like from the outside? What happens when you smash two of them together?

4. Does the shadowcraft mage's shadow illusion class feature get boosted by 10% on the Plane of Shadow?

5. Subjective gravity states "each individual". What happens when you get two minds in one body (via schism or possession or similar), and they want to go different directions?

6. Do time traits affect time stop and similar?

7. Undead and constructs are immune to Fortitude save-effects unless they work on objects too. A strongly positive-dominant plane offers a Fort save to avoid exploding, but specifies creatures. Can these two creature types get infinite HP on the Positive Energy Plane?

8. How much water pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Water?

9. How much air pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Air?

10. How much earth pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Earth?

11. How much fire pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Fire? :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

The Ordial Plane is a mysterious place. The Rule of Three and the Unity of Rings both seem to confirm its existence as the Plane of Proof - that which links matter and belief, supplying form to the Outer Planes - yet it has never been conclusively confirmed by planar explorers.

Some believe it may be that outer realm in which Vestiges are trapped, though this is unlikely. Many have conjectured that it might be inhabited by those creatures which call both the Ethereal and the Astral home - completing the trine, if you will. Those creatures certainly aren't telling.

The Ordial Plane, if it does exist, would likely mirror characteristics of the Ethereal and Astral Planes; no layers, just an infinite expanse, and with borders to the Inner and Outer Planes. As the conventional plane (in the sense of being a part of this multiverse) furthest from the Material Plane, it is inherently difficult for Primes to conceive of. This may be why planar travelers have never found it - stumbling across a gate to the Ordial, they may not have been able to recognize the portal for what it was, or even the realm beyond for a different place.

[afroakuma]

1. What does the edge of a demiplane/non-infinite plane look like?

From the outside, a demiplane has no "edge" - it's a bubble of some sort, usually spherical, floating in the Deep Ethereal.

From within, the specific nature of the demiplane determines that. It may be that the "edge" is a shoreline, or an infinite wall. It could be above the clouds in the skies surrounding a planetoid. It could be a door at the base of a stairwell, or checkerboard tiles breaking apart and spiraling slowly into a starry endless void. What the space "beyond" a demiplane looks like is as much a quality inherent to that demiplane as anything else.


2. What would happen if you put the tarrasque on the Positive Energy Plane? Would it die by healing? Would it be caught in an endless loop of exploding every so often, only to be reformed six seconds later?

Per the rules of 3.5, the Positive Energy Plane can't explode the tarrasque (as its regeneration allows it to ignore instant death attacks from any form of "attack" that could not normally deal it lethal damage - and nothing deals lethal damage to the tarrasque, especially not being really really healthy). I may be misreading this, but that's what the d20srd seems to be providing me with.


3. What does a plane look like from the outside? What happens when you smash two of them together?

A demiplane usually looks like a sphere from the outside, with specific visual characteristics based on the nature of that plane. Infinite planes have no "outside" that can be seen from any practical position.

Planes that collide tend to "emulsify" briefly - that is, there's a crossover in the collision zone, with elements from each appearing. Actual collision doesn't happen, but some planes naturally brush against one another - the Inner Planes all brush against a few, and there are places in the Outer Planes that show a bit of bordering as well.


4. Does the shadowcraft mage's shadow illusion class feature get boosted by 10% on the Plane of Shadow?

Don't have my books with me right now; can't look that up.


5. Subjective gravity states "each individual". What happens when you get two minds in one body (via schism or possession or similar), and they want to go different directions?

The stronger of the two minds prevails. When both minds are equally strong... have you ever heard the one about dropping a cat with a slice of peanut-buttered bread on its back?


6. Do time traits affect time stop and similar?

If the book doesn't say so, then no they do not. Planes with time traits should naturally interact with time magics in some fashion regardless.


7. Undead and constructs are immune to Fortitude save-effects unless they work on objects too. A strongly positive-dominant plane offers a Fort save to avoid exploding, but specifies creatures. Can these two creature types get infinite HP on the Positive Energy Plane?

Positive energy on the Positive Energy Plane should affect objects as well, with the same dramatic results (glowing and exploding). This appears to be a rules oversight, and an unfortunate one. Positive energy should affect undead in the same way that negative energy affects the living, but of course, these books were written from the perspective of having a standard adventuring party, and don't do well at addressing issues of monstrous entities brought there. This is why, for example, ravids have no immunity to their home plane's effects and deal damage with their positive energy lash. I would recommend that DMs treat the Positive Energy Plane as hazardous to both undead and constructs, and not at all hazardous to ravids.


8. How much water pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Water?

None of any note. You're perfectly safe to be there, provided you can breathe. And swim.


9. How much air pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Air?

Once again, none of any note. You're quite safe on the Plane of Air - it's easily the most gentle of the four.


10. How much earth pressure is there on the Elemental Plane of Earth?

Ohhhhh a lot. Cause a cave-in (entirely possible!) and you'll feel a substantial amount of earth pressure.

[Eurus]

What happens if you try to take a Petitioner off its home plane?

I've always heard it said that there are infinite demons, but that devils reproduce through soul-larvae. If there are infinite demons, why haven't they won the blood war? Even if a vanishingly tiny percentage of demonkind cares enough to participate at any given time, that's still a literally infinite army. Tactics only makes up for so much. Conversely, if there are a finite number of devils, but each layer of Baator is supposed to be infinitely large, what happens to all the empty space?

[afroakuma]

What happens if you try to take a Petitioner off its home plane?

Petitioners can leave their home planes, but they're in tremendous danger if they do so. A petitioner slain on its home plane merges with the plane and can potentially be reformed with powerful intervention. A petitioner slain elsewhere has its energies dispersed and cannot be reformed.


I've always heard it said that there are infinite demons, but that devils reproduce through soul-larvae. If there are infinite demons, why haven't they won the blood war? Even if a vanishingly tiny percentage of demonkind cares enough to participate at any given time, that's still a literally infinite army. Tactics only makes up for so much.

Demons are infinite. Devils are transfinite. Much of the rabble of demonkind forced to serve in the War is weak, useless and/or treacherous. This isn't a case of there being infinite balors versus countable pit fiends - there are EXCEEDINGLY few balors involved in the Blood War at any time, those mariliths involved are almost all wasting their time, and the nalfeshnees and glabrezu have other preoccupations that largely keep them removed from the war. In short, there's only a very small amount of contribution by true tanar'ri to the Blood War, and much of that involves the coercion of the molydei. None of the major Demon Princes care about the Blood War.

On the devil side, there's much more organization and force commitment. Bel is mandated by the Lord Below to prosecute the War on the side of Law, and has the Dark Eight working to ensure the supremacy of Baator in the conflict. Every rank from lemures up through to pit fiends can be engaged in the War. It's not only a matter of tactics (mariliths are excellent tacticians, and when a molydeus can be bothered to directly captain a war effort, there will be many dead baatezu indeed), it's a matter of sheer commitment and power level. Demons win on numbers, but devils win on force.

Don't discount the role the yugoloths play in keeping the balance, either. The Blood War won't end until someone very high-up wants it to.

(Demons also reproduce through larvae - larvae are the key to the whole of the War, used to create helpers such as imps and quasits or melted into lemures and dretches to fuel the raw numbers on each side.

The key difference is that manes can form from the Abyss as raw petitioner souls, whereas the baatezu are not natives of their plane and must hunt down nupperibos to render into lemures.)


Conversely, if there are a finite number of devils, but each layer of Baator is supposed to be infinitely large, what happens to all the empty space?

Devils are transfinite - their numbers, while not infinite, are certainly uncountable. There's not a tremendous amount of empty real estate as a result. Devils, unlike demons, also care about the empty space more. You're more likely to find an empty cavern in the Abyss than in Hell.

[Larkas]

Now these are things that I never quite wrapped my head around:

1) Both Planescape (IIRC) and 3.5 describe the Elemental Planes as both infinite and bordering other Elemental (or Para-Elemental, or Quasi-Elemental, or Energy) Planes. Hence, where the Water Elemental Plane borders the Air Elemental Planes, you'd have steam. But how can something be both infinite AND border something else?

2) The same applies for the Outer Planes in some measure. There are gates, so it's not exactly a border. But there are also River Styx and Oceanus, the Yggdrasil and other things that link stuff. How can you picture, for example, Oceanus passing through Arcadia and Ysgard? Do the shores form a continuum (and, thus, there is a real border, like in the Inner Planes), or does only a tiny fraction of the river exist in both planes (imagine: patch of land-river-patch of land)? Both are somewhat strange propositions!

3) In Planescape, I remember some locations changing planes because of a shift in alignment. A place in Mechanus that became too Good-aligned could suddenly become part of Elysium. Now, how do that work? Is there a land transfer, or are only buildings and/or features transfered?

[afroakuma]

Now these are things that I never quite wrapped my head around:

1) Both Planescape (IIRC) and 3.5 describe the Elemental Planes as both infinite and bordering other Elemental (or Para-Elemental, or Quasi-Elemental, or Energy) Planes. Hence, where the Water Elemental Plane borders the Air Elemental Planes, you'd have steam. But how can something be both infinite AND border something else?

Well, I'll explain by analogy.

Start at 0, and count upward by ones. The set of numbers you count (if you could count forever) would be "infinite;" that is to say, it is uncountable and unending. Nonetheless, no matter how high you count, I always have one "end" - the zero cannot move. Now start at zero and count downward by ones. Again, you have an "infinite" set of numbers - you will never reach a number so low that it cannot be bested by subtracting one - yet it has a defined limit.

Compare both of these to the entire set of integers - it is also infinite, and yet logically must be larger than either set individually, comprising as it does both of the previous infinities. Now take the real numbers - infinitely more infinite than the integers.

The way of the planes is such that there's no physical (0,0) at which all four elemental planes would originate and move away from, nor is there a point (X, 0) or (0, Y) that is "fixed" in planar space where the border is located. Rather, these realms are infinite, and within these realms exists a border with another, which can be traveled to but is not a defined PHYSICAL limit.


2) The same applies for the Outer Planes in some measure. There are gates, so it's not exactly a border. But there are also River Styx and Oceanus, the Yggdrasil and other things that link stuff. How can you picture, for example, Oceanus passing through Arcadia and Ysgard? Do the shores form a continuum (and, thus, there is a real border, like in the Inner Planes), or does only a tiny fraction of the river exist in both planes (imagine: patch of land-river-patch of land)? Both are somewhat strange propositions!

Again a metaphysical quirk - the shores do not (typically) form a continuum, nor do the rivers, the tree and the mountain have defined points at which there is a changeover. The analogy for this would be to go into Paint and draw a series of lines one next to another that shift from (255,0,0) to (255,255,0). Looking at such a band of color, you could tell me that you started at red and went to yellow, and you could probably point out orange to me, but is where you think orange begins the same place that I think orange begins? Do you think you would pick the same place at a glance, every time? And when you have determined where orange begins, will you be able to say, conclusively, looking one pixel to the left, that the line to the left is definitively "red" and not "orange?"


3) In Planescape, I remember some locations changing planes because of a shift in alignment. A place in Mechanus that became too Good-aligned could suddenly become part of Elysium. Now, how do that work? Is there a land transfer, or are only buildings and/or features transfered?

There can be a land transfer from time to time, too, though the land would gradually take on traits in accordance with its new environment. A transition from Mechanus to Elysium is almost certainly out of the question, however - goodness appearing in pure law would move a location into Arcadia first, then Celestia, then Bytopia. It's not the most sudden of transitions. There won't be a crater left over or a town crushed under SURPRISE TOURISM ROCK, though.

[Grinner]

Why are there so many themed planes (Air, Fire, Water, Earth, Negative, Astral, over a dozen different Alignment Planes, etc.) but only one Material Plane?

Edit: @afroakuma: I hope you catch this.

To clarify, that's a lot of support structure for one lousy plane. What's so important about it?

[afroakuma]

Why are there so many themed planes (Air, Fire, Water, Earth, Negative, Astral, over a dozen different Alignment Planes, etc.) but only one Material Plane?

The Inner Planes are the "building blocks" of matter itself. The Outer Planes are the embodiments and reinforcements of cosmic forces and belief. The Prime Material Plane is the fulcrum of it all, with the Transitive Planes being mediums for matter to join together and belief to provide meaning and purpose. In other words, the Prime is the "sum" of the rest of the cosmology.

That said, there are other Material Planes. They can be traveled to by entering the Deep Ethereal, or trekking into the secret routes in the Plane of Shadow. Eberron is commonly held to be a different Material Plane from that which houses Toril, Krynn and Oerth, for example. The distinction between other spheres (same Prime, different "solar system") and other Primes isn't well-explored and a great many worlds are considered to share the same Material Plane, but others do exist and have been seen.

The Inner Planes are also the original planes. The Prime is the conflux of those forces joining (the 0,0 on the coordinate axis, if you will) and provides the belief that underpins the Outer Planes. Depending on where your interests lie, it's either an uninteresting parasite (Inner), your world (Prime) or your life source and battleground (Outer).

[Grinner]

@afroakuma: That makes sense. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Larkas]

Well, I'll explain by analogy.

Start at 0, and count upward by ones. The set of numbers you count (if you could count forever) would be "infinite;" that is to say, it is uncountable and unending. Nonetheless, no matter how high you count, I always have one "end" - the zero cannot move. Now start at zero and count downward by ones. Again, you have an "infinite" set of numbers - you will never reach a number so low that it cannot be bested by subtracting one - yet it has a defined limit.

Compare both of these to the entire set of integers - it is also infinite, and yet logically must be larger than either set individually, comprising as it does both of the previous infinities. Now take the real numbers - infinitely more infinite than the integers.

The way of the planes is such that there's no physical (0,0) at which all four elemental planes would originate and move away from, nor is there a point (X, 0) or (0, Y) that is "fixed" in planar space where the border is located. Rather, these realms are infinite, and within these realms exists a border with another, which can be traveled to but is not a defined PHYSICAL limit.

Hmmmm, I think I get it. But wouldn't it make sense for a "larger infinite" to be there encompassing everything? I'm trying to avoid thinking 4E's Elemental Chaos, but I can't think of a better visualization.


Again a metaphysical quirk - the shores do not (typically) form a continuum, nor do the rivers, the tree and the mountain have defined points at which there is a changeover. The analogy for this would be to go into Paint and draw a series of lines one next to another that shift from (255,0,0) to (255,255,0). Looking at such a band of color, you could tell me that you started at red and went to yellow, and you could probably point out orange to me, but is where you think orange begins the same place that I think orange begins? Do you think you would pick the same place at a glance, every time? And when you have determined where orange begins, will you be able to say, conclusively, looking one pixel to the left, that the line to the left is definitively "red" and not "orange?"

You kinda lost me there. I think I can visualize the transition from the point of view of the rivers/tree/mountain, but what would you see if you were on the plane, and not on the road?


There can be a land transfer from time to time, too, though the land would gradually take on traits in accordance with its new environment. A transition from Mechanus to Elysium is almost certainly out of the question, however - goodness appearing in pure law would move a location into Arcadia first, then Celestia, then Bytopia. It's not the most sudden of transitions. There won't be a crater left over or a town crushed under SURPRISE TOURISM ROCK, though.

Hmmmm, I think I got it. But say the piece to be transfered was a cave in a mountainside. Would the whole mountain be transfered, or would the cave simply vanish and appear in a similiar mountain, or isn't there this kind of information available? (Btw, I meant to say Seven Heavens, I always get the "proper names" wrong :smallbiggrin: )

[afroakuma]

Hmmmm, I think I get it. But wouldn't it make sense for a "larger infinite" to be there encompassing everything? I'm trying to avoid thinking 4E's Elemental Chaos, but I can't think of a better visualization.

Well, that's where the analogy falls off, since the infinite expanses of the planes aren't "lesser" than anything they could be. There aren't any numbers "between the cracks," as it were.


You kinda lost me there. I think I can visualize the transition from the point of view of the rivers/tree/mountain, but what would you see if you were on the plane, and not on the road?

If you're on the plane? So, if you're on Arborea and following the river? You would keep following the river. It might eventually go into a cavern or make a waterfall or flow into a sea, but none of these are necessarily the transition point between the Oceanus on Arborea and the Oceanus on Ysgard. They could be, mind you, but movement on the river as a planar pathway doesn't really jive with movement on the river as a simple waterway. There's a reason competent ferrymen are sought out for such journeys.


Hmmmm, I think I got it. But say the piece to be transfered was a cave in a mountainside. Would the whole mountain be transfered, or would the cave simply vanish and appear in a similiar mountain, or isn't there this kind of information available? (Btw, I meant to say Seven Heavens, I always get the "proper names" wrong :smallbiggrin: )

Depends on a huge variety of factors. A whole mountain moving is certainly within the realm of possibility, but it wouldn't do so just for a cave's worth of change. Heck, a cave probably wouldn't shift either for a cave's worth of change. The Planes aren't that shifty.

[AuraTwilight]

The Ordial Plane is a mysterious place. The Rule of Three and the Unity of Rings both seem to confirm its existence as the Plane of Proof - that which links matter and belief, supplying form to the Outer Planes - yet it has never been conclusively confirmed by planar explorers.

Some believe it may be that outer realm in which Vestiges are trapped, though this is unlikely. Many have conjectured that it might be inhabited by those creatures which call both the Ethereal and the Astral home - completing the trine, if you will. Those creatures certainly aren't telling.

The Ordial Plane, if it does exist, would likely mirror characteristics of the Ethereal and Astral Planes; no layers, just an infinite expanse, and with borders to the Inner and Outer Planes. As the conventional plane (in the sense of being a part of this multiverse) furthest from the Material Plane, it is inherently difficult for Primes to conceive of. This may be why planar travelers have never found it - stumbling across a gate to the Ordial, they may not have been able to recognize the portal for what it was, or even the realm beyond for a different place.

Extra Credit: Homebrew what it's actually like to visit the Ordial Plane, what its planar traits are, etc. :P

Alternative question:

Name and describe your favorite and/or most interesting Demiplane that you know of.

[HunterOfJello]

I just started up a campaign that includes both a Sorcerer and a Psion.

1. I know that arcane magic changes based on which plane an individual happens to be on at the time, but do psionics change also?

2. If psionics do not change, what do you think is the best method to get the player who started up a Sorcerer to not hate me for making this a Planescape game?

[Larkas]

Well, that's where the analogy falls off, since the infinite expanses of the planes aren't "lesser" than anything they could be. There aren't any numbers "between the cracks," as it were.

Okay, so the transitions are like portals and gates on the Outer Planes, just bigger? I think I can get that.


If you're on the plane? So, if you're on Arborea and following the river? You would keep following the river. It might eventually go into a cavern or make a waterfall or flow into a sea, but none of these are necessarily the transition point between the Oceanus on Arborea and the Oceanus on Ysgard. They could be, mind you, but movement on the river as a planar pathway doesn't really jive with movement on the river as a simple waterway. There's a reason competent ferrymen are sought out for such journeys.

Sooooo... If you're in the river, at some point the river-path won't follow the physical river in the plane? I think I can get that too, though it's a bit confusing.


Depends on a huge variety of factors. A whole mountain moving is certainly within the realm of possibility, but it wouldn't do so just for a cave's worth of change. Heck, a cave probably wouldn't shift either for a cave's worth of change. The Planes aren't that shifty.

Hmmmm, fair enough.

[afroakuma]

Extra Credit: Homebrew what it's actually like to visit the Ordial Plane, what its planar traits are, etc. :P

Ah, but that would be telling! :smallbiggrin: I may do it at some point, though.


Alternative question:

Name and describe your favorite and/or most interesting Demiplane that you know of.

Well, the Demiplane of Dread is technically the most fleshed-out of all of them...

The Boundless has an eerie and mysterious quality which I rather like, though I haven't yet found a use for it. Draedenden has a fundamental appeal to me. Dungeonland is of course hilarious and fun. I also like the Demiplane of Time.

Let's go with The Boundless. This is a small demiplane, featuring crystalline isles on a large ocean. Devoid of life, all that's really here is the shore and the way you came. Drinking of the waters of The Boundless heals one on their first visit, which can last any amount of time and yet take no time outside. On the second visit, the waters rejuvenate, restoring some youth, though the realm now feels darker and more ominous. After the second visit, the demiplane seems to "hunt" past tourists in some fashion, with its color pools opening very close to you in your travels through the Ethereal as though to draw you in, and the plane itself seeming to crop up near your location when it would be difficult to avoid it. Nobody who has entered The Boundless a third time has ever emerged. The plane has a strange warden, an immortal woman who gives a few words regarding the plane and offers nothing more.

[afroakuma]

I just started up a campaign that includes both a Sorcerer and a Psion.

1. I know that arcane magic changes based on which plane an individual happens to be on at the time, but do psionics change also?

2. If psionics do not change, what do you think is the best method to get the player who started up a Sorcerer to not hate me for making this a Planescape game?

Psionics don't change, per se, but they can become more difficult to use on the Planes. Certain powerful entities can exert a sort of mental pressure that increases the PP cost of psionic abilities. Similarly, on the Outer Planes, the greater the difference between a psion's alignment and that of the Outer Plane he or she is on, the more it can cost to activate and/or augment.

Don't be afraid to give some planar creatures psionic competencies. In the past, many outsiders had psionic abilities, but as psionics was not a component of 3.5's core rulebooks, psionic monsters did not appear in Core.

[Larkas]

Ah, but that would be telling! :smallbiggrin: I may do it at some point, though.

I always thought that the fun about the Ordial is exactly it NOT being able to be described. Somewhat like... The Far Plane? Nah, their weirdness are too different from one another to be the same place.

[afroakuma]

Okay, so the transitions are like portals and gates on the Outer Planes, just bigger? I think I can get that.

Essentially. It's a vast blending, since what's coming out and what's going in mix in different amounts the further you go, and each border region has its own name and character.


Sooooo... If you're in the river, at some point the river-path won't follow the physical river in the plane? I think I can get that too, though it's a bit confusing.

That's the Planes for you. I'll try to clarify though:

Suppose you can follow the physical river from A to B to C on Arborea, and from D to E to F on Ysgard. You may sail down either part of the river on that plane and just be using it as a river on that plane, or you can sail down the river as a planar pathway. If you do, you're not sailing from A to B to C' while onlookers stand at C (that is to say, there isn't a metaphysical forking going on); instead, you're sailing from A to B to D (at some point, you cross the planar boundary).

[afroakuma]

I always thought that the fun about the Ordial is exactly it NOT being able to be described. Somewhat like... The Far Plane? Nah, their weirdness are too different from one another to be the same place.

The essay that was written about attempts to find the Ordial was marvelous (and at times, very disturbing) but they're definitely not the same place.

[Larkas]

Suppose you can follow the physical river from A to B to C on Arborea, and from D to E to F on Ysgard. You may sail down either part of the river on that plane and just be using it as a river on that plane, or you can sail down the river as a planar pathway. If you do, you're not sailing from A to B to C' while onlookers stand at C (that is to say, there isn't a metaphysical forking going on); instead, you're sailing from A to B to D (at some point, you cross the planar boundary).

Hmmmm, interesting! I think I get it now. Last question, though: can you choose? Or can you, by accident, stumble upon D while trying to get to C? Or both?

[afroakuma]

Hmmmm, interesting! I think I get it now. Last question, though: can you choose? Or can you, by accident, stumble upon D while trying to get to C? Or both?

If you're not a good sailor, you could end up "further" on the river than you wanted to go. Those practiced in navigating the waters can set their course properly.

[Arcanist]

If you're not a good sailor, you could end up "further" on the river than you wanted to go. Those practiced in navigating the waters can set their course properly.

Is it wrong that I feel 1337 for knowing this already? :smallcool: (not really...)

Question: What is the Origin of the Plane of Shadow? In some conflicting stories (more specifically FR) the Plane originated as a Demiplane and slowly expanded outward as it was created by an Arcanist (no, not me...), however in others (Greyhawk) it always was. Can it be assumed that the Realm is older then Greyhawk in terms of age? (not publication date

For bonus points: How would you describe Shadowstuff? I've never actually seen any physical description of it (assuming you can even hold it with your hands) and have only heard that it was a big blob of darkness that appears almost alive (that last line concerns me on that note). No clue where I got this description.

[afroakuma]

Traveling for the next block of time. Will handle any questions left here when I get back (including Arcanist's above).

[Mystra]

I might be able to help with some answers:



1) Both Planescape (IIRC) and 3.5 describe the Elemental Planes as both infinite and bordering other Elemental (or Para-Elemental, or Quasi-Elemental, or Energy) Planes. Hence, where the Water Elemental Plane borders the Air Elemental Planes, you'd have steam. But how can something be both infinite AND border something else?

They have infinite borders, of course. If your anywhere in the ''middle'' of an Elemental Plane, it goes on forever. If you were to pick any random starting point and then travel in any direction you could endlessly travel. From your starting point, it's an infinite distance to the infinite border. Unless you know the 'shortcut' to the border(think like a wormhole). And if you were at the border one side would be the plane your on, and the other side another plane...but the plane would be infinite in all directions.

In fact 'border' might be a misnomer, as it's more like an ''infinite crossing non-point''.



2) The same applies for the Outer Planes in some measure. But there are also River Styx and Oceanus, the Yggdrasil and other things that link stuff. How can you picture, for example, Oceanus passing through Arcadia and Ysgard? Do the shores form a continuum (and, thus, there is a real border, like in the Inner Planes), or does only a tiny fraction of the river exist in both planes (imagine: patch of land-river-patch of land)? Both are somewhat strange propositions!

The rivers and such are ''special'' and no one quite understands how they work. And again the wormhole idea works. You could sail on the River Styx for an infinite time across the infinite Abyss. But only if you know how to access the 'wormhole' can you move to another plane. You might think of the River Styx and such as a ''Permanent Gate''. In short, they are ment to be ''strange''.



3) In Planescape, I remember some locations changing planes because of a shift in alignment. A place in Mechanus that became too Good-aligned could suddenly become part of Elysium. Now, how do that work? Is there a land transfer, or are only buildings and/or features transfered?

It's not clear how it works...again this is a mystery. Land, air and such is transferred. And if you go by the old, old, old Planescape idea: Each, say rock, on a plane is actually a solidified though/idea/emotion/philosophy/etc. So each pebble on the Abyss is say, for example, a madman's thought of slaughtering their family. And then the location changes, each one becomes a new/altered solidified thought/idea/emotion/philosophy/etc. The idea is that a plane is not ''static'' so bits and pieces ''almost'' change location all the time as the solidified thought/idea/emotion/philosophy/etc change. But it takes a large concentration of such thought/idea/emotion/philosophy/etc for the shift to take place.

[Larkas]

Thanks a lot, both of you! However confusing, these answers have been quite informative!

[afroakuma]

Question: What is the Origin of the Plane of Shadow? In some conflicting stories (more specifically FR) the Plane originated as a Demiplane and slowly expanded outward as it was created by an Arcanist (no, not me...), however in others (Greyhawk) it always was. Can it be assumed that the Realm is older then Greyhawk in terms of age? (not publication date

In the oldest times, Water and Fire met, and Air and Earth met, and where they clashed there were Steam and Dust. In those times, Positive and Negative met, and where they clashed there was Shadow.

The Planes became more distant, giving way to a greater reality, a different order. Dust and Steam vanished, forming anew as quasielemental planes. Shadow, however, slipped into the Ether.

Contained as it was, Shadow was a demiplane, enrobed in the shell only the Deep Ethereal could provide. It was the greatest of demiplanes, though, for it was barely containable as such. From behind the edge of the horizon, just beyond mortals' ability to see, Shadow waited in the Ethereal for visitors, travelers and explorers.

When the fulcrum of the multiverse shook and the new order trembled, Shadow broke free, rushing through the Deep Ethereal like oil through water, rushing toward the Material Planes and enveloping them as it pushed its way out of its accidental prison. Still tied by a million tiny threads to the Ethereal, but supporting its independence with similar cords to the Astral, Shadow secured itself as a new Transitive Plane lurking at the borders of the Material Plane.


For bonus points: How would you describe Shadowstuff? I've never actually seen any physical description of it (assuming you can even hold it with your hands) and have only heard that it was a big blob of darkness that appears almost alive (that last line concerns me on that note). No clue where I got this description.

Have you ever seen Mary Poppins? There's a scene in which she turns billowing smoke from a chimney into a staircase. The nebulous edges of the smoke conceal what exactly is solid and what is just darkness, but the result is still a functioning stairway. Shadowstuff is much the same way. It is akin to the non-Newtonian fluid made from cornstarch and water, only airy. To brush it, it is a smoky nothing, but to squeeze it, it becomes solid. Another way to envision it is to picture long, thin strings of black/purple/grey silk. Hold them at one end, and you could pass your hand through the dangling ends as though cutting through a silky gauze. Give it a twist, though - braid it, in the case of the strings - and it becomes both solid and quite firmly strong.

In any event, shadowstuff has that nebulous, vaguely smoky quality to it. In color it ranges from a deep black to a dark purple hue to a dank, foggy gray. In texture it's a bit cool to the touch - even if you aren't "touching" it - and soft but firm, like a velvet coating over steel. It's odorless, tasteless and isn't quite where you expect it to be - usually 1-20 mm deeper in than where it looks like it is, depending on the amount and the consistency.

[Larkas]

New questions have occurred to me, though I don't know if they belong properly here... It is more about Spelljammer than Planescape at any rate. Anyways, consider the Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston. The way I read Spelljammer, and that was a long time ago, I remember Crystal Spheres being somewhat like winter glass balls, floating in a sea of Phlogiston. But were the borders on the Crystal Sphere "hard"? Put in other words, if you kept distancing yourself from Oerth and further into Greyspace, would you eventually bump into a physical, invisible wall? Or would you keep on going unless you knew how to exit that Crystal Sphere? And now, the reason why this might be relevant to this thread, though it's merely speculation: if the latter were to happen, than wouldn't the Phlogiston be better thought of as some sort of "hyperspace", a "layer" to the Prime Material (however odd that would be!), or even a Transitive Plane that shortens travel time (Plane of Shadow, anyone?!?), instead of merely a part of the Prime Material?

[afroakuma]

Thanks a lot, both of you! However confusing, these answers have been quite informative!

Ahh, it's a confusing subject. Hence the thread. :smalltongue:


EDIT: New questions have occurred to me, though I don't know if they belong properly here... It is more about Spelljammer than Planescape at any rate. Anyways, consider the Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston. The way I read Spelljammer, and that was a long time ago, I remember Crystal Spheres being somewhat like winter glass balls, floating in a sea of Phlogiston. But were the borders on the Crystal Sphere "hard"? Put in other words, if you kept distancing yourself from Oerth and further into Greyspace, would you eventually bump into a physical, invisible wall? Or would you keep on going unless you knew how to exit that Crystal Sphere?

Yup. They're hard. You go bump. Or ding, as the case may be. Tink. Probably tink.


And now, the reason why this might be relevant to this thread, though it's merely speculation: if the latter were to happen, than wouldn't the Phlogiston be better thought of as some sort of "hyperspace", a "layer" to the Prime Material (however odd that would be!), or even a Transitive Plane that shortens travel time (Plane of Shadow, anyone?!?), instead of merely a part of the Prime Material?

The latter didn't, but yes, some people have speculated that the phlogiston should be seen as a Transitive Plane. I see it as a component of the Material Plane.

[Larkas]

Thanks again for the answers, Afroakuma! I've been considering using Planescape's cosmology for my 3.5/PF games, but I wanted to try and fit it with 3.5's base cosmology as best as possible. Shadow always stroke me as a hard nut to crack, being a demiplane back in 2E and promoted to full transitive plane in 3E. But tying up the Shadow with the Phlogiston not only has a flavor of "backwards compatibility", it also works to bring Spelljammer to the fold. Alas, to work the way I envisioned it, I'd have to hammer Spelljammer and change the way it worked a little bit, since the bit I remembered about the winter glass balls was really real. Not a huge problem by any accounts, but it doesn't hurt to try and find a better way.

Also, by fitting Shadow that way, I couldn't find space for a Plane of Faerie. I wanted to do something like MoP's Spirit World crossed with 4E's Feywild, but then I'd have to find space for yet another transitive plane. ...Ack, shouldn't have read 4E material :smallyuk:

(Also, sorry for double posting, I imagined you would miss my edit, but boy, are you fast noticing changes!)

[afroakuma]

Thanks again for the answers, Afroakuma! I've been considering using Planescape's cosmology for my 3.5/PF games, but I wanted to try and fit it with 3.5's base cosmology as best as possible. Shadow always stroke me as a hard nut to crack, being a demiplane back in 2E and promoted to full transitive plane in 3E. But tying up the Shadow with the Phlogiston not only has a flavor of "backwards compatibility", it also works to bring Spelljammer to the fold. Alas, to work the way I envisioned it, I'd have to hammer Spelljammer and change the way it worked a little bit, since the bit I remembered about the winter glass balls was really real. Not a huge problem by any accounts, but it doesn't hurt to try and find a better way.

Also, by fitting Shadow that way, I couldn't find space for a Plane of Faerie. I wanted to do something like MoP's Spirit World crossed with 4E's Feywild, but then I'd have to find space for yet another transitive plane. ...Ack, shouldn't have read 4E material :smallyuk:)

Planescape and Spelljammer do cooperate reasonably well. I used the fusion in my old Planejammer campaign. As for the idea of incorporating Faerie, you could just have it use a similar mechanism to Dream - a natural demiplane in the Deep Ethereal that is broadly accessible but lacks transitory capabilities. A sort of "moon" to the Material Plane's "Earth," if you will.

[Eurus]

Can you bypass the whole spelljammer thing with Greater Teleport, since it has an infinite range?

[afroakuma]

Can you bypass the whole spelljammer thing with Greater Teleport, since it has an infinite range?

I believe the crystal spheres interfere with that. I'm quite certain the phlogiston does.

[Pokonic]

How do the ranks of evil planar beings stack up against those of good? As in, how many planar races associated with the "nasty" planes have rough counterparts, but there varied nature always made it seem like there were more "species" associated with the evil planes then the good.

[Coidzor]

Do you believe in Mechanus Bot? What's your take on Mechanus being a living plane for a certain value of living?

[Eldan]

How do the ranks of evil planar beings stack up against those of good? As in, how many planar races associated with the "nasty" planes have rough counterparts, but there varied nature always made it seem like there were more "species" associated with the evil planes then the good.

Roughly, there's three big classes of good planar beings (lawful archons, neutral guardinals and chaotic eladrin) and three big classe of evil planar beings (lawful baatezu, neutral Yugoloth and chaotic Tanar'ri). So far, that's balanced, except wizards has published far more fiends than celestials.

Then there's various minor fiends and celestials of all kinds. I'd say that overall, good has a bit of an edge, as it has another major class, the angels. The only thing evil has to compare to that are the Gehreleth, and they are a bit anemic compared to the likes of Planetars and Solars.

[afroakuma]

How do the ranks of evil planar beings stack up against those of good? As in, how many planar races associated with the "nasty" planes have rough counterparts, but there varied nature always made it seem like there were more "species" associated with the evil planes then the good.

Well, I'll show you:

On the side of good, you have the archons (LG), guardinals (NG) and eladrin (CG), with asuras (cG) on the side and aasimon/angels (xG) above the lot.

On the side of evil, you have the baatezu (LE), yugoloths (NE) and tanar'ri (CE), with gehreleths (cE) on the side and nothing* below the lot.

There are certainly fewer varieties of archon/guardinal/eladrin/asuras than there are types of baatezu/yugoloth/tanar'ri/gehreleth, but that's due to need and nature. Baatezu demand a strict and quite byzantine hierarchy, while archons can accept a simpler logical progression. Guardinals can accept roles, while yugoloths have internal struggles over theirs. Eladrin come in broad strokes and can unite as a group; tanar'ri have lots of individual definitions and would rather branch off into specificity. As for gehreleths, they're obsessed with the number three. :smalltongue:

So while there are fewer kinds of good exemplar than evil ones (and some are of course off the books), it's not due to some imbalance, but rather an inherent characteristic of good versus evil.


Do you believe in Mechanus Bot? What's your take on Mechanus being a living plane for a certain value of living?

I don't think Mechanus is any more or less alive than any other Outer Plane. Take from that what you will. I was a part of the silliness that originally suggested Mechanus to be secretly the Ultimate Inevitable, though. :smallbiggrin:

*in my personal canon, there exists a class of evil beings, sathari/anathemas, who are the dark parallel of the angels. Fortunately, they show themselves only rarely and most of them are either sealed away awaiting the end of the Blood War or in service to some very conservative deities of evil.

[Eldan]

Hm. I wouldn't quite put the Asura as a planar race on the same level as the Gehreleth. There's only one kind, after all. Though I guess since they are fallen archons, you might call the 'leth fallen 'loths.

[afroakuma]

Hm. I wouldn't quite put the Asura as a planar race on the same level as the Gehreleth. There's only one kind, after all. Though I guess since they are fallen archons, you might call the 'leth fallen 'loths.

Enough sources have listed them as a "celestial race" that I felt it appropriate. Also, there are only 10,000 'leths total, so... :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

Planescape and Spelljammer do cooperate reasonably well. I used the fusion in my old Planejammer campaign. As for the idea of incorporating Faerie, you could just have it use a similar mechanism to Dream - a natural demiplane in the Deep Ethereal that is broadly accessible but lacks transitory capabilities. A sort of "moon" to the Material Plane's "Earth," if you will.

Hmmm, I think my misconceptions can be born more out of not knowing the setting too well. It might pay to read the material more thoroughly, then. Back in the day, I was more concerned with "the awesome flying boats" than with the setting proper! :smallredface:

EDIT: Something VERY interesting I just found: link (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showwiki.php?title=The+Farspace+Reality).

[afroakuma]

Ah yes, I've seen that before.

[Eldan]

Adding new planes to the cosmology is always fun. Planewalker had a very nice one which added four hidden layers to Arborea.

[afroakuma]

Saw that one too. Was it only four?

[Lord_Gareth]

What are the logistical problems in launching a planar raid/invasion - travel wise, that is? Not the specific ones like "How do I get all of these demons into one army," - more along the lines of how you cross the Planes to get where you're going in one unit.

[afroakuma]

What are the logistical problems in launching a planar raid/invasion - travel wise, that is? Not the specific ones like "How do I get all of these demons into one army," - more along the lines of how you cross the Planes to get where you're going in one unit.

Finding or making a suitable gate is difficult, so using established planar pathways is typically required. These are usually well-known enough to be heavily guarded, or take routes not best suited to the mission at hand. More than a few fiendish armies have run strike teams across the Outlands.

[Lord_Gareth]

Is it more common for Outsiders to choose to advance by hit dice, or by class level?

[afroakuma]

Is it more common for Outsiders to choose to advance by hit dice, or by class level?

Hit Dice. characterlimit!

[Lord_Gareth]

Do you feel as though a Celestial of any stripe or variety would, if asked, choose to become the leader of a Prime Material society that requested such a service?

[afroakuma]

They might, but they really shouldn't. Most wouldn't.

[Lord_Gareth]

They might, but they really shouldn't. Most wouldn't.

Why would this be a bad idea?

[afroakuma]

Direct sacred influence is just as bad, in its own way, as direct profane influence. Celestials have different priorities than those they would be leading and an inability to be flexible in their thinking about how to go about things. Not to mention it would likely annoy other powers interested in the goings-on of the Prime...

[Eldan]

Also, Planescape usually gave limits to how and how long outsiders could visit other planes, especially the prime. Most can't go there at all unless summoned or called. Eladrin can go, but only as long as no one finds out that they are outsiders, so they usually take background roles.

I could see an archon take a leadership role on the prime, if he found a way to stay and was really convinced to be better suited to the role than the mortals around him. Or an angel that was commanded by his diety to do so. I'd imagine that having a living representation of your god leading your nation would generate a lot of belief.

[afroakuma]

Also a great deal of conflict. If you're being that forward, others will want to be as well, and that escalates to holy war very quickly. Angels are generally very good at behaving themselves in their designated roles, and gods don't push them beyond that much of the time.

[Lord_Gareth]

Many outsiders are immune to poison. How does such an enterprising being go forth and get drunk, considering that they are proof against conventional alcohol?

[afroakuma]

Most don't. On the other hand, most aren't poisoned by alcohol, having physiologies different from those of humans. So booze would work fine. Other recreational substances also exist - there are whole species of imp in the Hells that serve as drug sources for fiends.

[Lord_Gareth]

- Are Planetouched more prevalent on the Planes, or on the Prime?

- It appears that many Outsiders with non-typical alignments (see: Falls-From-Grace) belong to planar Factions. Do the Factions generally cause or encourage such alignment shifts, or do these exceptional outsiders go seeking Factions because they have shifted alignment?

- What might some of the effects of an extended convergence between an Outer Plane and the Ethereal Plane be?

- Is it possible for a mortal to assume a prominent political position on the Outer Planes, such as a Duke of Hell, or a noble of the Court of Stars?

[afroakuma]

- Are Planetouched more prevalent on the Planes, or on the Prime?

The Planes.


- It appears that many Outsiders with non-typical alignments (see: Falls-From-Grace) belong to planar Factions. Do the Factions generally cause or encourage such alignment shifts, or do these exceptional outsiders go seeking Factions because they have shifted alignment?

Neither.


- What might some of the effects of an extended convergence between an Outer Plane and the Ethereal Plane be?

Can't really happen. The Ethereal Plane is fairly far removed from the Outer Planes, and also very good about keeping itself fairly neutral. Ethereal rifts and stable portals both represent "incursions" of a sort, and neither actually interacts with the ether beyond displacing it in some fashion within the confines of the Ethereal Plane.


- Is it possible for a mortal to assume a prominent political position on the Outer Planes, such as a Duke of Hell, or a noble of the Court of Stars?

No. Such positions are not purely political.

[Lord_Gareth]

- What are the origins of the Ethereal Plane?

- I've read some references in the past to the Deep Ethereal, but I'm not entirely certain what it is, so...the hell is it? I mean, many spells (blink being the definitive example, of course) seem to think that the Ethereal is so close to the Prime that you can trip into it on accident, but the alien horrors that crawl out of the Deep Ethereal seem to have no relation to that at all. What gives?

[afroakuma]

- What are the origins of the Ethereal Plane?

The Ethereal Plane is the plane of possibility and potential. Originally it was nothing more than the Deep Ethereal, but on its borders there formed Material Planes, which the Ethereal spread out over and embraced. It is the extension of the Inner Planes outward, so to speak.


- I've read some references in the past to the Deep Ethereal, but I'm not entirely certain what it is, so...the hell is it? I mean, many spells (blink being the definitive example, of course) seem to think that the Ethereal is so close to the Prime that you can trip into it on accident, but the alien horrors that crawl out of the Deep Ethereal seem to have no relation to that at all. What gives?

The Ethereal is coexistent with the Prime Material Plane - or at least, the Border Ethereal is, the region inherently linked to the Material Plane. When creatures on the Prime become ethereal, they are stepping into the Border Ethereal, this region of overlap - a greyscale mirror of the Material Plane.

The Deep Ethereal is the vast ocean to the "shore" of the Border Ethereal. It is a formless sea that links all the various Borders Ethereal, the sea in which demiplanes form and drift like islands, and the realm of many of the true natives of the Ethereal Plane. The Deep Ethereal is reached chiefly by trying to get there once you're on the Border - that is to say, if you're in x-y-z space, moving along the q axis. The Border Ethereal is also the connection between the Material and Inner Planes, so it serves most of the functions you need out of your Ethereal services.

[Larkas]

What are the main differences between Planescape's Ethereal and 3.5's Ethereal? I know that in Planescape, the Elemental Planes are in the Deep Ethereal, but can you look into the Material the same way as you can in 3.5? Are the Elemental Planes like blobs floating in the Deep Ethereal, a la Demiplanes, or something else entirely? How do you enter the Inner Planes through the Ethereal?

[Eldan]

There are three basic groups of planes. The elemental, the material, and the outer planes.

The ethereal plane connects the elemental and the prime material. The astral plane connects the material to the other planes.

The main difference is that the ethereal is split in Planescape. The Border ethereal, which intersects with the prime, is basically the same as the ethereal in 3.5. However, there is also the Deep Ethereal.

While on the Border ethereal, you always see a colourful curtain or wall floating near you, often above you. Moving through it brings you to the deep ethereal. Instead of a grey immaterial reflection of the material, it is its own world. It is where the four elements mix into protoplasm, the basic substance of all prime material matter. As such, it is full of mirages, figments and half-formed objects.

[afroakuma]

What are the main differences between Planescape's Ethereal and 3.5's Ethereal? I know that in Planescape, the Elemental Planes are in the Deep Ethereal, but can you look into the Material the same way as you can in 3.5? Are the Elemental Planes like blobs floating in the Deep Ethereal, a la Demiplanes, or something else entirely? How do you enter the Inner Planes through the Ethereal?

In 3.X, the Ethereal isn't by default split into Border and Deep - though there is a sidebar for doing so in the Manual of the Plane. In both, the Ethereal is a reflection of the Material Plane. The Elemental Planes don't float within the Deep Ethereal - rather, they're sort of metaphysically "atop the fountain," as it were.

The Ethereal has physical connections to the Inner Planes in the same way it does to others - color curtains, immobile portals to a specific plane. It's just metaphysically closer to the Inner Planes, which is facilitative to certain magical effects.

[Lord_Gareth]

So - if half-X (fiend, celestial) and Planetouched (of the L, G, C, and E varieties) are more common on the Planes, how do they shake out into planar societies? Obviously they tend towards extremes of ostracism (tieflings, chaonids) or leadership (aasimar, those Lawful ones whose names start with a Z) on the Prime, but on the Planes they're of decidedly lesser power in the absence of large numbers of class levels. How do the various Planes slot their Planetouched into their culture(s)?

[afroakuma]

On the Planes they're treated as any non-exemplar planar would be. People figure you for a planar, know you're not a full-blooded incarnation of good/law/evil/chaos/neutrality, and give you the same status any generic planar would get on the Planes. Obviously you'll experience a bit of bias (positive or negative) depending on where and what you are, but it's pretty thin overall.

[Lord_Gareth]

Why is Celestia a mountain?

Well, let me rephrase that. Did Celestia form as the Seven Mounting heavens deliberately, when the planes were created/spawned as dumping grounds of alignment, or was there a mountain "there" (for whatever value of "there" is appropriate) that Celestia was then "built" around?

[silverwolfer]

If the etheral is about creation and possibilities , is the shadow plane about the lack of those or the death of then?

[Juntao112]

What are the consequences of losing a card duel in the Shadow Realm?

[afroakuma]

There was nothing there before Celestia was there. There was no planar "geography" prior to the planes forming. Of the few things it is speculated did exist prior to the forming of the planes, the only one that was occupying the metaspace where an Outer Plane formed is now wedged deep within the Abyss.

[silverwolfer]

If Asmodeus is the lord of sin and pretty much every creature that is evil besides demons, how has he not gobbled up the rest of the evil gods, with that much fire power behind him?

[afroakuma]

If the etheral is about creation and possibilities , is the shadow plane about the lack of those or the death of then?

The Ethereal is in a way a form of untapped potential. The Plane of Shadow is collapsing potential - shifting semi-solid reality that changes and fluctuates over time. Ephemeral, in its way. It is the thousand thousand echoes of what could have come from what was, and of what might come from what is, and of what could lead to that which will come.

Mainly, though, it's just monochrome darkness world. :smalltongue:

[afroakuma]

If Asmodeus is the lord of sin and pretty much every creature that is evil besides demons, how has he not gobbled up the rest of the evil gods, with that much fire power behind him?

Well, he isn't. He's got no authority over yugoloths, or gehreleths, or chronotyryn; no dominion over the petty vilekith of the Prime such as orcs and goblins; no true divine spark. Asmodeus is a very powerful force of evil, yes, and the master-by-conquest of one of the Lower Planes, but he's not master of all evil. Not even half of it.

[silverwolfer]

Do you have any information on mechnus besides foromions, it seems one of the more interesting plains, but least published.

[afroakuma]

Do you have any information on mechnus besides foromions, it seems one of the more interesting plains, but least published.

There's quite a bit of information about Mechanus available; in particular, some of its other notable denizens, the inevitables, appear in the 3.5 Monster Manual and the SRD.

What would you like to know?

[Lord_Gareth]

How long does it take for technological changes in the Prime to echo back towards the Outer Planes? I realize there's probably a delay, and maybe even a significant one, but since belief affects the Outer Planes to a degree one wonders what, say, widespread firearm use on the Prime might do to their paradigms.

[afroakuma]

Well, there are already guns in Sigil. There are areas of wondrous technology in Mechanus. There are plenty of worlds feeding that sort of belief into the planes. It's just that there are significantly more that do not.

In other words, the Planes are fundamentally uninterested in "technological advances." They also have the feedback loop effect that reinforces what's always there - how Asmodeus has that name and that symbol and that home and that suite of powers despite no cultures across the planes having devised a tall pointy-bearded elegant man who lives in a castle in a hole, carries a wand of rubies and misses his wife terribly. And so on and so forth.

[Lord_Gareth]

Several planar bazaars - including Sigil and Dis - exist where many planar or Prime races can trade and barter. Do the Planes use gold as a currency? If not, what do they tend to trade in?

[Eldan]

Souls, on the lower planes. Particularly the night hags are deep in the larva trade.

Otherwise, yes, coin. Several factions in sigil mint their own, but in general, pretty much everything coin-shaped and made of metal is accepted and barter isn't rare either. It's probably because so many mortals believe in the value of money.

[afroakuma]

Several planar bazaars - including Sigil and Dis - exist where many planar or Prime races can trade and barter. Do the Planes use gold as a currency? If not, what do they tend to trade in?

Gold is a popular form of currency in Sigil and on the outlands. As a precious metal with a powerful magical nature, it's always in demand. Some Upper Planar races, particularly angels, dislike gold as a form of coinage.

Silver is much less popular - it sees use in Sigil and on most Upper Planes, but one must be careful when dealing with it. You see, silver is a mild allergen to many kinds of fiend and quite harmful to many kinds of baatezu and other devils. Many denizens of the Beastlands and Arborea are also averse to the touch of silver. Thus, silver coins ("stingers") are a risky bet if you're not certain who you're dealing with, and many moneychangers won't touch them for fear of being unable to move them or offending other customers.

Copper coins don't tend to stay coppery for long on the planes. Whether it's contact with exotic environments or just getting rubbed with the acidic sweat of a fiend, copper tends to acquire a greenish crust over time. Expect to be offered "greens" as change on more than one occasion.

Don't bring electrum to the planes either - combining gold and silver in an uncertain ratio results in more than a few suspicious looks, and if anyone will take your money they'll tell you (politely, one hopes) that it will be counted out as though it were silver. Electrum coins are called "baubles" on the planes for this reason - they're fairly troublesome to have and worthless in most places.

Platinum is a good metal for trade. Platinum coins are "Merts" on the Planes, though you wouldn't dare call them that in Celestia or the Lower Planes. Be polite and you'll always find a home for platinum cash.

Sigil has two forms of indigenous coinage apart from such coins certain factions choose to mint. The torus and the mobius are similar at first glance - ringlike coins that can be threaded onto a string. The torus is made of gold, however (and worth less beyond the Cage due to the center hole) while the mobius, which has a half-twist to create the figure from which it derives its name, is platinum and inscribed with hundreds of tiny, precise runes. This latter is rare, valuable and typically encountered only in large mercantile negotiations - don't expect to see mobius changing hands at a storefront.

A form of currency that goes well just about anywhere, gems are low-risk if you're good at appraisal and better at finding trustworthy dealers who will give you the value you deserve. A great many planar merchants have some skill in appraisal and can quickly size up the value of your gemstones.

You'll find a vast array of unique currencies on the Outer Planes: tetrahedral prisms, glittering marbles, thin disks of chiming crystal, precisely forged cogs, pine cones, geodes, talons, horns... the list goes on and on.

In the Lower Planes, you'll need to be wary of what coins come your way. So-called "ivory bits" are valued as copper pennies, but come from the bones of dead creatures. Similarly valueless are the blood coins of Avernus, which wear away into nothing over time. Acheron deals in steel cubes; in Pandemonium, currency is nearly worthless. The fiends are also happy to trade in souls, which are trapped in small jewels and very valuable. The most trustworthy form of coinage across the Lower Planes is "grey ice," coinage minted from pressed tungsten. Grey ice is a stable form of currency as it's typically more durable than those dealing in it.

[enderlord99]

If you fly a canoe counter-counter-banana-bo-bounter-fe-fi-fo-founter-counter-clockwise a river, but all eleventy-J wheels fall on, what does purple taste like?

Do the far realms count as a plane for the purpose of this thread?

[afroakuma]

Do the far realms count as a plane for the purpose of this thread?

They do, yes.

[Lord_Gareth]

- So, the Court of Stars doesn't really 'rule' Arborea, but they come about as close as you can to 'ruling' a group of Chaotic beings. What are the responsibilities of the Court as a sovereign entity?

- Aside from the obvious (idiot summoners), how DOES stuff from the Far Realms end up in the Planes?

[afroakuma]

- So, the Court of Stars doesn't really 'rule' Arborea, but they come about as close as you can to 'ruling' a group of Chaotic beings. What are the responsibilities of the Court as a sovereign entity?

Please rephrase the question.


- Aside from the obvious (idiot summoners), how DOES stuff from the Far Realms end up in the Planes?

Idiots and accidents. That's it. The Far Realm has no desire to have contact with the Great Wheel any more than the Great Wheel likes rubbing elbows with the Far Realm.

[Lord_Gareth]

That's interesting. What, then draws some Far Realm entities into the Great Wheel - or are the unfortunates that get sucked through the victims of circumstances beyond their control?

[afroakuma]

That's interesting. What, then draws some Far Realm entities into the Great Wheel - or are the unfortunates that get sucked through the victims of circumstances beyond their control?

Idiots and accidents. Some Far Realm parody of "curiosity," or one of the random happenstances that originates in that place.

[TuggyNE]

If you fly a canoe counter-counter-banana-bo-bounter-fe-fi-fo-founter-counter-clockwise a river, but all eleventy-J wheels fall on, what does purple taste like?[/COLOR]

42. Or maybe 9.

[Coidzor]

Limbo and Giant Frogs, why is this, do you think?

[willpell]

Idiots and accidents. That's it. The Far Realm has no desire to have contact with the Great Wheel any more than the Great Wheel likes rubbing elbows with the Far Realm.

Do you have a source for that? There's so little info on the Far Realm that I find it hard to believe this statement is definitive (not that I have a problem with that, just wanting to be clear on what's Canon vs. Fanon). To disclaim, I don't have much backup for any of what I'm stating...Otiax is in Tome of Magic and the Stross thing below comes from Wikipedia, most of the rest is my own speculation and shouldn't be hard to identify as such.

I've seen at least one thing that seems to imply otherwise - the vestige Otiax, a Far Realm entity which may just be symbolic of the act of breaking through gates, but also might be specifically attempting to batter down whatever barrier keeps it out of our reality. (My pet theory is that Otiax differs from other Vestiges in that becoming a quasi-real entity which exists only when petitioned by Binders was a step up from his previous state, at least compared to the PMP.)


Limbo and Giant Frogs, why is this, do you think?

IIRC Charles Stross wrote the Slaad into existence, intending them to be a Lovecraft-esque force of pure chaos, existing only to breed at the expense of other lifeforms while babbling madness and un-maliciously attacking and killing anything that moves, just because that's what they do. (If a tiger is not evil because he kills you for food, and an Inevitable is not evil because he kills you for technical violation of some contract you agreed to, then a Slaad can get away with not killing you just because he's insane and destructive, as long as he's not sentient enough to be genuinely enjoying it...sadism is evil, but a random-brained Chaos outsider can be regarded as being as innocent-yet-dangerous as a thunderbolt or a dropped bottle of nitroglycerine.)

My guess is that Stross was *not* responsible for Limbo being a swirling elemental chaos, and probably didn't know that it was when he wrote the Slaad...it may not even have been that in main D&D continuity at the time, it's possible that this was before the MOTP/Planescape cosmology entirely supplanted all alternatives as the default truth for all D&D worlds unless specified otherwise. Personally I think the Slaad make more sense if you treat Limbo as not made of the classic elements, but more of a generalized ectoplasm-esque proto-substance, a primordial soup from which the Slaad crawled like the protean efts whelped by several Lovecraftiverse entities (notably Abhoth and Ubbo-Sathla, arguably Tsathoggua and HPL's own Shub-Niggurath).

All of these entities are non-evil by way of existing too far outside a human frame of reference to be answerable to human conceptions of morality (much as with animals, except that rather than "mindless" they're "other-minded"). I don't think the Far Realm had been conceived of back when the Slaad first appeared, so being non-evil but ultradestructive made them Chaotic according to the classification standards of the time, and thus they got put into Limbo whether or not that made any real sense for them (not that failure to make sense is not inherently sensible for such beings, of course). In my campaign, I played up some of this confusion by speculating a third, sort of nascent third alignment axis, not fully realized, which puts Nature Power on one end and various brands of Madness at the other; this makes the Far Realm essentially the "Outer Plane" of Madness, and thus divorces it from Chaos at least partially, which I thought seemed to possess a nonzero degree of reasonableness. (My game also speculates a similar sort-of-Outer-Plane for Nature which is the source of various Druid powers, though it's explicitly not really a separate "place", but rather a sort of manifestation of the PMP; likewise the Far Realm is a manifestation of everything that has no place in the PMP, and the various Inner and Outer planes are all "neutral" on this axis.)

[Kane0]

Hypothetically, if Asmodeus had some help when devising the Pact Primeval (by say the original god of trickery/deceit) and was later betrayed by said help, would it be within his nature to hold a grudge (and plan to act on it) even though they were caught and tried fairly?

Also, is there any evidence of what happened to Zariel, the previous ruler of Avernus? If she still exists, would she still be loyal to Asmodeus or Baator at all? I wonder if she would be likely to accept an offer by a god of trickery to get some revenge...

[Duke of Urrel]

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks for the questions and answers.

If you've time for one more question, here's mine: The Plane of Shadow is supposedly inhabited by native life forms. But how do you imagine this plane's flora and fauna – and above all its must intelligent beings – survive, given that they must constantly be on their guard to avoid being killed by life-hating nightshades?

[Larkas]

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks for the questions and answers.

If you've time for one more question, here's mine: The Plane of Shadow is supposedly inhabited by native life forms. But how do you imagine this plane's flora and fauna – and above all its must intelligent beings – survive, given that they must constantly be on their guard to avoid being killed by life-hating nightshades?

Not only that. How can you have flora in a place that's always dark?

[Biotroll]

Quick Eberron question:
My player wants to play githzerai, so, how do githzerai fit in Eberron cosmology? (Guess I missed place for them somehow.)

[afroakuma]

Limbo and Giant Frogs, why is this, do you think?

Not sure why "giant frog" was what was picked, but I do know why slaad don't come in more varieties: Ssendam and Ygorl, the original slaad lords, restricted the randomness of slaad forms and natures in order to prevent new slaad of their level from arising. It doesn't always work (this IS Limbo, after all...) but it's been generally successful; in a perverse twist of intent, it's resulted in gray slaadi seeking power by turning to evil (becoming death slaadi) as they can't really progress on chaos alone.

[Lord_Gareth]

It seems as though a lot of Demon Princes are trying to become gods. Why is divinity so appealing for these beings? Are any of the Archdukes of Hell pursuing similar goals, and if not, why not?

[afroakuma]

Do you have a source for that?

I have a great many. There's a wealth of info on the Far Realm if you know where to look. All contact with the Far Realm falls into either idiots (anyone on either side of the great divide who knowingly chooses to go probing into things they shouldn't) or accidents (anyone or anyTHING that is a victim of circumstance or someone else's idiocy). Even entities such as Father Llymic fall into this simple rule - either it elected to come through the rift (and is thus an idiot) or went through by accident. Otiax is not provably of the Far Realm - I have a few competing notions on that - though if it was, it isn't now, being a vestige.

The point is, for entities of the Far Realm, the Great Wheel is toxic and miserable. That's why they attempt to widen links back to their distant home and spread what we consider to be "contamination" - because to them, they're just getting out the buckets of Lysol and working to scrub a little footprint "clean."

[afroakuma]

Hypothetically, if Asmodeus had some help when devising the Pact Primeval (by say the original god of trickery/deceit) and was later betrayed by said help, would it be within his nature to hold a grudge (and plan to act on it) even though they were caught and tried fairly?

Also, is there any evidence of what happened to Zariel, the previous ruler of Avernus? If she still exists, would she still be loyal to Asmodeus or Baator at all? I wonder if she would be likely to accept an offer by a god of trickery to get some revenge...

Oh, Asmodeus never forgets. He'd never act on a grudge he wouldn't consider lawfully discharged, but he would never, ever forget.

As to direct evidence, there is little, but it is rumored that Bel, Lord of the First, keeps his predecessor imprisoned in the depths of his castle and siphons her energies to grow in power and retain control of the layer despite being a non-unique devil. The quakes that have grown in frequency over the past several centuries may be linked to her screams.

[afroakuma]

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks for the questions and answers.

If you've time for one more question, here's mine: The Plane of Shadow is supposedly inhabited by native life forms. But how do you imagine this plane's flora and fauna – and above all its must intelligent beings – survive, given that they must constantly be on their guard to avoid being killed by life-hating nightshades?

How do you survive in a world with dragons? :smalltongue:

The answer is, most don't survive a nightshade; while there are some who could band together and struggle against a nightwing, nightwalkers are terrific threats that carve swaths of devastation when active. As for nightcrawlers, they are the source of the Darklands, the regions of the plane that have the minor negative-dominant trait. These are the lairs of the great beasts.

Fortunately for indigenous life, being a native of Shadow confers some limited protection from the notice of nightshades and shadows, for your own physiology incorporates some of the same darkness that makes up theirs. Thus, unless you're right in their path or associating with someone or something from a more lighted realm, or they're feeling particularly aggressive, nightshades aren't likely to go out of their way to assault you. That said, the more concentrated life is and the more structured the shadowstuff nearby, the more likely it is that a nightshade will strike.


Not only that. How can you have flora in a place that's always dark?

Shadow flora does not derive life from solar illumination. It flourishes under different conditions.

[afroakuma]

Biotroll: I'm not the Eberron guy, I'll tell you that right now. However, Keith Baker himself suggested that githyanki and githzerai are refugees from a world the daelkyr previously invaded and destroyed. He also suggested that mind flayers might be to the gith as dolgaunts are to hobgoblins. In any event, they're rare, sullen and out-of-the way. Other takes can be found in the Player's Guide to Eberron and the Explorer's Handbook, IIRC.


It seems as though a lot of Demon Princes are trying to become gods. Why is divinity so appealing for these beings? Are any of the Archdukes of Hell pursuing similar goals, and if not, why not?

Divinity is just another form of power. In the chaotic struggles of the Abyss, power is something immensely desirable. It's worth noting that many of the most prominent Demon Princes aren't really all that interested in it, though.

Most of the Archdukes have cults on the Material Plane, though largely to spread corruption and evil. Mammon lusts for power and prestige and has quietly maneuvered toward seeking godhood, though his natural cowardice has held him back from pursuing it further. Mephistopheles has both ambition and a love of being worshiped - he'd like being a real god.

[willpell]

All contact with the Far Realm falls into either idiots (anyone on either side of the great divide who knowingly chooses to go probing into things they shouldn't) or accidents (anyone or anyTHING that is a victim of circumstance or someone else's idiocy). Even entities such as Father Llymic fall into this simple rule - either it elected to come through the rift (and is thus an idiot) or went through by accident.

There's some word for a logical fallacy which I think is what you're doing in the parts I've bolded here not No True Scotsman but something very close to it (I don't study formal logic so I only know the terms if I've happened to osmose them popculturally recently enough to not have forgotten). I don't really disagree with the overall idea (that seeking out the other realm is A Bad Idea), but you're defining "idiot" circularly here - anyone who makes contact is an idiot because only idiots would make contact and vice versa - and I can believe there are a nonzero number of people who don't qualify. Individuals so powerful, and so sensible in their precautions, that they can believe it to be a reasonable calculated risk, to try and get firsthand information about a dimension antithetical to all existence. After all, outer space is absurdly deadly and yet we've been figuring out ways to go up there for half a century now...in possibly as little as 2 years, if you believe a Yahoo news article, there could be recreational trips to space, purchased at a cost of millions by bored rich dudes despite the fact that it would take a minor miscalculation in the craft's shielding to get them a lethal dose of cosmic rays. While these joyriders are probably fully deserving of the label under discussion, their counterparts in NASA, builders of probes like Voyager and Curiosity as well as actual astronauts who went for science and a place in the history books, probably deserve a little more credit.

(I swear I'm not picking a fight with you on this or any other topic, I'm just talking through the implications of an interesting puzzle.)


That's why they attempt to widen links back to their distant home and spread what we consider to be "contamination" - because to them, they're just getting out the buckets of Lysol and working to scrub a little footprint "clean."

Nicely put, but it makes me wonder if the same might ultimately be true of Evil and demons and the like...is trying to corrupt the souls of the virtuous anything more than a terraforming effort for extradimensional creatures who live and breathe malice and anguish for their mere survival?


How do you survive in a world with dragons? :smalltongue:

Very carefully. :smallbiggrin:


Shadow flora does not derive life from solar illumination. It flourishes under different conditions.

Yes, instead of Chlorophyll, it has Melanophyll. A black pigment found in the lush black foliage of these otherwise-black plants, which absorbs the black non-light from the black sky and uses it to scotosynthesize carboanhydrates for quasimetabolism.

[Vorr]

But were the borders on the Crystal Sphere "hard"? Put in other words, if you kept distancing yourself from Oerth and further into Greyspace, would you eventually bump into a physical, invisible wall? Or would you keep on going unless you knew how to exit that Crystal Sphere? And now, the reason why this might be relevant to this thread, though it's merely speculation: if the latter were to happen, than wouldn't the Phlogiston be better thought of as some sort of "hyperspace", a "layer" to the Prime Material (however odd that would be!), or even a Transitive Plane that shortens travel time (Plane of Shadow, anyone?!?), instead of merely a part of the Prime Material?

1.Each Crystal sphere is hard and solid.
2.Crystal Spheres are not invisible, so you'd have to want to crash into a solid curved wall.
3.You can think of the Phlogiston as ''HyperSpace'', it fits well enough.
4.Technically, Spelljammer wise, each Crystal Sphere is it's own ''Prime Plane'' as each Sphere has different laws of physics, magic and such.

[afroakuma]

Individuals so powerful, and so sensible in their precautions, that they can believe it to be a reasonable calculated risk, to try and get firsthand information about a dimension antithetical to all existence.

Their belief is mistaken. The original adventure featuring the Far Realm made exactly this point: that persons of sufficient power, foresight and knowledge were wrong. It's a Lovecraftian notion: the mortal mind cannot reasonably contend with what lies beyond the great rift. Presuming to is dangerous arrogance, and electing to seek out a place beyond the natural order of things is idiocy on either side of the veil. When the ancient elves went through, they died, went mad and/or mutated horribly. When the kaorti came back through, the same things happened to them.

There's a difference between trying to push the two realities back apart - closing the gates, sealing the rifts, dislodging the unwanted visitors - and crossing into the other reality for any reason. It's a horrible horrible idea. And it doesn't matter if you're Bob the Farmer or Piscaethces the Blood Queen; he's now seventy two billion pieces of squidlike jelly that stare at each other from across ten wafer-thin layers of a realm beyond understanding, while she's lodged deep in the Nine Hells and is not enjoying this "fire" and "bleeding" that she's come to learn of over the eons.


Nicely put, but it makes me wonder if the same might ultimately be true of Evil and demons and the like...is trying to corrupt the souls of the virtuous anything more than a terraforming effort for extradimensional creatures who live and breathe malice and anguish for their mere survival?

Yes. Fiends don't need to terraform (at least not that way. Wastriliths still need pools to swim happily in, that sort of thing). Our reality is explicitly antithetical and toxic to creatures of the Far Realm. If a portal to the Lower Planes is sealed, the fiends who have already come through can get along just fine on this side. A portal to the Far Realm being sealed usually means the death of its natives on the wrong side within days or weeks if not seconds.

[Eldan]

Not only that. How can you have flora in a place that's always dark?

The plane of shadows is not always dark, it's shadowy.

Also, as a biologist: life even on our planet doesn't necessarily need sunlight. There's chemical energy, or gamma radiation that works too. In a magical world, there's so many more ways.

Edit: to absorb black light, if such a thing existed, you'd need a white pigment (albuphyll, maybe? I'm not good at old languages). Chlorophyll absorbs mostly red light.

[Crinias]

I believe I have another answer for Slaadi and their relation to Chaos: Supposedly in egyptian mythology the chaos before creation was inhabited by primordial gods, which took the form of frogs and snakes.

Moreover, how many other animals can represent Chaos's transformative aspects better than the frog? In its life cycle, it changes from water-breather to air-breather, herbivore to carnivore, finned to legged.

Also, frogs are commonly associated with bringers of plagues and destruction.
If you take a single Red or Blue slaadi via Planar Binding or whatever and go to a town and start infecting a bunch of people, eventually you'll have a bunch of slaadi of different colors, and even if you manage to control them or something they will still be hella dangerous.

[Xervous]

First off, I love this thread for the very simple reason that it tempted me to go check out planescape... Just what I was looking for!

First question: is there any exact or even general cut-off for what constitutes a "power" with regards to the Lady of Pain's YOU MUST BE THIS SHORT TO RIDE THIS RIDE around sigil?

[AuraTwilight]

Basically if you're a deity, keep out.

[afroakuma]

I believe I have another answer for Slaadi and their relation to Chaos

Ultimately I still think the best answer is that chaos is simply so much more self-aware than any of us could reckon that it ran through every possibility and determined that the answer to life, the universe and everything could best be expressed as GIANT FROG.


First off, I love this thread for the very simple reason that it tempted me to go check out planescape... Just what I was looking for!

First question: is there any exact or even general cut-off for what constitutes a "power" with regards to the Lady of Pain's YOU MUST BE THIS SHORT TO RIDE THIS RIDE around sigil?

Demigod or higher. Beings with divine rank 0 can typically enter but really, really shouldn't. Divine rank 1+, you're banned.

[Deadline]

I've got a couple for you:

1. What can you tell me about the Baernaloths? (Baernoloths?)

2. Who do you think the Prisoner of Elysium is?

[afroakuma]

I've got a couple for you:

1. What can you tell me about the Baernaloths? (Baernoloths?)

The baernaloths are considered to be the progenitors of the yugoloths, an elder race of exemplars of an older order that has largely been supplanted by the current planar races. Yugoloths claim that the baernaloths are the original manifestations of pure evil, and scholars believe that they have counterparts of law, good, chaos and balance. The baernaloths are said to have crafted the yugoloths as an expression of purest evil, to become their successors.

Such myths claim that the ancient baatorians and obyriths are no more than byproducts of a refining process, castoffs of the baernaloths' true vision of evil. It is known that the gehreleths are creations of a rogue baernaloth named Apomps, who was exiled for his arrogance and resides deep within Carceri.

Baernaloths do exist; they are few in number, but even in their shriveled and reduced state they remain active as shadowy forces of evil. Unlike their creations, the baernaloths by and large remained in Hades. Many of their number grow mad and throw themselves into the Blood War as crazed commanders. A group called The Demented are said to be shadowy puppetmasters advising the highest echelons of yugoloth society.


2. Who do you think the Prisoner of Elysium is?

Oh well, that would be telling! :smallwink:

I'll give you some ideas as to who it isn't, though:

• It's not a baatezu, or any Archduke of Hell/Lord of the Nine.

• It's not a monster of legend.

• It's not a tanar'ri, or any Demon Prince/Demon Lord.

• It's not from the Far Realm.

• It's not from the Inner Planes.

• It's not a god.

• Most of the forces of evil trying to seek it out haven't any idea what it is.

[silverwolfer]

When something is so neutral, that it cares not for the battles going on , and the god accepts everyone from Lawful Good, to Chaotic Evil. How do the followers get along , and keep things together without it all falling apart. Does the service to the god superseded the Law vs chaos and good vs evil interference .


The god in this case being Gond.

[Lord_Gareth]

Is there any way to hold off or negate the negative effects of Elysium/The Grey Wastes?

[afroakuma]

When something is so neutral, that it cares not for the battles going on , and the god accepts everyone from Lawful Good, to Chaotic Evil. How do the followers get along , and keep things together without it all falling apart. Does the service to the god superseded the Law vs chaos and good vs evil interference .

The god in this case being Gond.

Well that's where sects come in. Branches of worship dedicated to approaching a deity from a certain perspective. You see this with all deities; even lawful good gods have sects that hold good above law, clashing with sects that hold law above good.

Once they're in the afterlife, it tends to sort itself out. True worshipers of Gond go to his realm, Wonderhome, on the Outlands, where they all steadily become more like him (that is to say, their alignment shifts toward neutrality).

[willpell]

When something is so neutral, that it cares not for the battles going on , and the god accepts everyone from Lawful Good, to Chaotic Evil. How do the followers get along , and keep things together without it all falling apart. Does the service to the god superseded the Law vs chaos and good vs evil interference .


The god in this case being Gond.

Can't speak to Gond in general, but in terms of neutral gods I am familiar with, such as Boccob, Obad-Hai and Xan Yae, just figure that their policy toward other followers amounts to "live and let live". The organization probably has a loose hierarchy within which a certain amount of social Darwinism is permitted but obedience to direct orders from superiors is always expected unless you have a damn good reason to try to subvert it.

Example 1: Evil Boccobite plays Dr. Mengele with captured elementals and comes up with new magical technique. Good Boccobite doesn't approve of the method of gaining this knowledge, but figures that failing to maintain the records of the knowledge will only lead to another Boccobite repeating the process, so he archives, uses and disseminates the information against his own personal feelings.

Example 2: Lawful Obadian believes in upholding ancient druidic rites of seasonal passage; his student is Chaotic and just wants to set animals on fire. The master knows that adolescent rebellion is a natural part of the maturation process and allows the student to disrespect the Old Ways all he wants in private, but makes sure the student knows he will be turned into fertilizer if he's stupid enough to release a flaming dire weasel in the middle of the Rites of Spring.

[afroakuma]

Is there any way to hold off or negate the negative effects of Elysium/The Grey Wastes?

Will saves.

There are probably certain spells, magical items and special materials that will do it as well, of course, but over any given length of time you'll need to either keep spending resources or have a sturdy Will.

[Lord_Gareth]

Is there any way to shake the 'tag' Carceri puts on you - the magical effect which inevitably drags you back there?

[afroakuma]

Is there any way to shake the 'tag' Carceri puts on you - the magical effect which inevitably drags you back there?

You know what they say about being back on the wagon, how you don't ever know you won't fall off again until you're dead?

People have devised ways that they believe work, but it's a hard thing to detect and a hard thing to prove. We may never know.

[Coidzor]

Why are they called Primes anyway?

[TuggyNE]

Why are they called Primes anyway?

Because there's a lot of 'em, they're not hard to find in most cases, and they're not too useful most of the time? Sorry, math joke, couldn't resist!

[afroakuma]

Why are they called Primes anyway?

Cause they're from the Prime Material Plane

[Coidzor]

Cause they're from the Prime Material Plane

Why are they called prime material planes rather than material planes, I suppose?

Or does Primes refer to multiple worlds within one single prime material plane?

Or is it just a memetic mutation of fanon not understanding the designation of prime to the main material plane in question during a campaign?

[afroakuma]

Why are they called prime material planes rather than material planes, I suppose?

The most common theory is that there are alternate Material Planes, some of which have slightly or radically different cosmologies linked to them. The one which is known to be the lynchpin of the Great Wheel cosmology is the "Prime."

Of course, the better reasons would be based on planar structure and terminology: in past editions, the Energy Planes were called the Positive & Negative Material Planes, respectively. The "Prime" Material Plane would be that plane which is composed of the ideal balance of Positive and Negative alongside the building blocks of matter.

Finally, as the sum of the Inner Planes and the origin of the Outer Planes, the Material Plane as we know it is the first truly "material" (composite and stable, rather than elemental) plane; while the Outer Planes are also "material," they derive their existence from that of the original Material Plane, which is therefore Prime.

So there you have it. Three theories to play with.

[willpell]

The most common theory is that there are alternate Material Planes, some of which have slightly or radically different cosmologies linked to them. The one which is known to be the lynchpin of the Great Wheel cosmology is the "Prime."

Therefore "Primes" is essentially only useful in referring to multiple cosmologies, correct? Nowhere within any one setting should there be more than one PMP?

[afroakuma]

Therefore "Primes" is essentially only useful in referring to multiple cosmologies, correct? Nowhere within any one setting should there be more than one PMP?

"Primes" is used to refer chiefly to those planewalkers who have come from the Material Plane (see: clueless Primes). "Alternate Primes" would make sense from the standpoint of discovering another Material Plane which links to the cosmology in the same fashion but is separate from the original Prime.

[Xefas]

The answer to this question will determine how much set-up I need for the actual one (a little bit, or none at all).

How much do you know about the White Wolf Exalted setting? Not mechanics or anything, just the setting.

[AuraTwilight]

On that note, the Far Realms and the Wyld are literally the same thing, right? I mean seriously, they are.

[afroakuma]

The answer to this question will determine how much set-up I need for the actual one (a little bit, or none at all).

How much do you know about the White Wolf Exalted setting? Not mechanics or anything, just the setting.

Zzzzzzzzzzzero.

Well, not zero, I gather it involves throwing universes at one another and equally ludicrous feats as a matter of course... but that's about it.

[Xefas]

On that note, the Far Realms and the Wyld are literally the same thing, right? I mean seriously, they are.

Sort of. Close to Creation, the Wyld is more like Limbo. It's weird as all heck, but a human can still sort of almost kinda grasp part of it. And if you're strong enough, you can even fool yourself into thinking you're using your will to meaningfully shape it a bit.

As you get farther out, into the Deep Wyld, you get something like the Far Realm.

[afroakuma]

So, Xefas, what can I do for you?

[silverwolfer]

The realm that fae and such come from The Feywild, is it an extension of the material plane like the shadow and ethereal planes?

[AuraTwilight]

Well, not zero, I gather it involves throwing universes at one another and equally ludicrous feats as a matter of course... but that's about it.

Exalted isn't quite that ridiculous.

It only involves throwing the cool parts of universes at each other.

[afroakuma]

The realm that fae and such come from The Feywild, is it an extension of the material plane like the shadow and ethereal planes?

Sorry, I don't speak 4E.

In 3.X, though, the Plane of Faerie is a quasi-Outer Plane with demiplane traits; it overlaps the Material Plane, but does not extend from it (as Shadow and the Deep Ethereal do). It is accessible without passing through the Astral Plane, and as an Outer Plane is insulated from both the Ethereal and Shadow Planes, though they may all overlap the same world. Faerie has borders with the Beastlands and Arborea and has been linked with Pandemonium by the Queen of Air and Darkness.

[Xefas]

Zzzzzzzzzzzero.

Well, not zero, I gather it involves throwing universes at one another and equally ludicrous feats as a matter of course... but that's about it.

Okay! Important bits: in Exalted, the top of the food chain, as we know it, are the Primordials. They are complex inhuman ideas spawned from utter chaos and impossibility, and while their true nature is incomprehensible to mortal minds, they can be perceived as... essentially, a living plane of existence, plus some kind of ruling entity/heart for that plane, plus its native Outsiders and, finally, the legend of that place, person, and people.

For example, Malfeas is a plane-sized city, and he's the sun that lights the city, and he's all the mad denizens of that city. He's the legend of a city that never sleeps, eternally scorched by its self-loathing nuclear heart, and will eventually flow forth in a bloodthirsty tide and either conquer or obliterate everything in its path.

In the distant past, the Primordials were running the show, until the Gods and the Exalted showed up, and imprisoned them so that they could have all the hookers and blow for themselves.

I'm putting these guys into Planescape as interesting locales. In short, the Primordials were here before the Great Wheel. The Gods showed up and fought them. The Gods won, but couldn't completely destroy the Primordials, so they had to imprison each of them individually - often in some way that also aided them, because Gods are clever that way. Now the Primordials are neat little places that your planes-hopping party can go to, and even speak with, if they want. I already did some work on it that I've posted (and a lot that I haven't posted); it's in my extended homebrew signature (which is... in my signature).

The problem is that, in Exalted, there are 23 of them currently imprisoned, and I've only got ideas for some of them! So, knowing Planescape, I figured you could help come up with interesting planar prisons. In question form... "Where would the Gods imprison these guys in Planescape?"

These are summaries of ones I've already done and written about, to give you a brief idea of what I'm talking about.

Malfeas. I already talked about him. The Gods turned him inside out, and made his skin the planar border between the Abyss and the rest of the Wheel. You can commune with him by going to the Layer of the Abyss that still has his sun-heart in it.

Cecelyne is a big, empty, desolate desert where hope and meaning go to die. I thought about the Grey Wastes, but she has a schtick about being the boundary between things, so I had the Gods stick her between the Wheel and the Far Realm to make the whole... 'idiots and accidents' thing a bit more difficult. You can commune with her by attempting to use standard planar travel to go to the Far Realm. You end up stuck in her for five days before popping out the other side (assuming you survive).

She Who Lives In Her Name is a collection of ten thousand spheres that contain every basic concept from which all things are formed. I had the Gods crack her spheres open, and use the contents to create a tapestry of objectivity, bound to the Wheel. She's why the concept of Yellow is the same in Baator as it is in Elysium, even if the language is different, and there are different connotations. She enforces that x = x. You commune with her by standing at the top of the Outlands Spire and looking down.

Adorjan is a wind that loves all things, and everything she loves dies gruesomely. The Gods made Pandemonium, and funneled her inside, so now she and her descendants are the winds of madness that blow there. You commune with her by finding the place in Pandemonium where all the wind is coming from.

The Ebon Dragon is darkness and antagonism given serpent form. Seemed a pretty easy fit to twist him around the Ahriman/Jazirian myth, and have him be defeated by the Gods, where his body fell, creating Baator, and now he lays in the Serpent's Coil. You commune with him by going to the head of the coil.

Others, I have ideas for, but haven't written them out yet. These four, though, I have no idea where to stick them.

Isidoros is the core of a black hole, roughly hewn into the shape of a colossal boar. He's utterly oblivious to the world outside of himself, largely due to his nature being antithetical to nearly all things. He destroys, but not intentionally. He's just incapable of restraining himself; like a tornado in a china shop.

Metagaos is a swamp that devours everything, albeit slowly. He eats matter, energy, even thoughts, ideas, space, and time. He's largely just a collection of hungers, putting on facades to lure food into the bog from which they'll never escape, but never truly feeling anything above the Id.

Kimbery is an ocean. Which is also sort of a womb in a mother-of-all-monsters kind of way. From her poisonous waters, she continually births new and horrifying leviathan-children to do her bidding, feeds them on spite and venom, and sends them forth to fulfill her own inscrutable designs. She's quite emotionally unstable, flipping between love and hate at the drop of a hat, with a lot of help and nurturing to give, and infinitely more punishment.

Cytherea is a big bang. Or possibly The Big Bang. She's considered the Mother Of All, and is somehow capable of transferring a portion of her immense power into others, but is incapable of acting on her own behalf. Other than that, there's not much known about her, even in Exalted.

Isidoros and Cytherea, I have trouble with, because I want something more clever than "We stuck them in pocket dimensions somewhere", but that's all I can think of. Metagaos and Kimbery, I have trouble with, because I want something more clever than "A layer of the Abyss", but that's all I can think of. Surely the Gods got more creative than that?

I also kind of like instances where I can slip them into a gap that Planescape already sorta had. Pandemonium already had mad, flesh-flaying winds. So I put the mad, flesh-flaying wind Primordial there! Baator already had a big serpent-shaped font of all darkness, so I- well, you get it.

Conjecture? Ideas? Comments?

[afroakuma]

There are a few things of that sort drifting around the Planes already (Ulgurshek, for instance). There are also plenty of terrible places to be:

• The Prisoner of Elysium, an evil entity of some sort that an entire layer of the plane of pure good is secretly devoted to keeping imprisoned.

• Ocanthus, the frozen depth of Acheron. The infinite icewall below the spinning, razor-sharp shards of frosty death may seal away some deeper secret.

• For Isidoros, why not a deep region of the Negative Energy Plane or the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Vacuum?

• Similarly, for Cytherea, why not the Positive Energy Plane?

• The Styx runs very far and very deep, and spans several planes. In its infinite depths could lie a great hiding place; its waters would help subdue the memory of an entity caged deep within.

• The Caverns of Ilsensine lie underneath the Outlands. There, the Herculean mind of the illithid's deity collects the secret knowledge of the multiverse and discards that which is redundant.

• Celestia's seventh layer, Chronias, is an impenetrable mystery. Apart from the head of the Hebdomad, no entity has ever come down from Chronias who has ascended.

• The sands of Pelion, the third layer of Arborea, conceal ancient secrets hidden amid the ruins of some unknown race. Even the eladrins don't know who or what once resided there, but it is said that deep within these ruins is where the undead divinity Tenebrous discovered the power that kills gods.

• There is a place in Hades known as the Ghoresh Chasm, a massive earthen rift miles wide, impossibly long, terrifyingly deep. An expedition to the bottom discovered a great seal marked with sigils of law, chaos and evil. The appearance of this mysterious portal prompted only the second pause in the Blood War in history, as ambassadors of all three major fiendish races congregated to study it. The conference broke apart in minutes, and what the seal truly holds remains a mystery.

[Xefas]

Ooooo, I didn't know about several of those, and they're all neat bits of information. Thanks, afroakuma. :smallbiggrin: I've got plenty to work with now.

[willpell]

On that note, the Far Realms and the Wyld are literally the same thing, right? I mean seriously, they are.

My knowledge of Exalted is minimal, but since the Wyld is supposed to be the chaos from which the world emerged (ie as Creation gets bigger the Wyld gets "smaller", though it's probably infinite so the shrinkage is only for the sake of argument), rather than something concurrent with but antithetical to the world (the Far Realm is probably at least as big as the Material Plane and did not "give way" to it as far as we know), it seems like a better analogue to the wyld would be Limbo, which 4E expanded into the Elemental Chaos and (I think) subsumed the Elemental Planes into it. (There's no particular reason they couldn't be part of it in a slight variant of the 3E cosmology, given that Limbo is just a bunch of air and earth and water and fire all mushed together and constantly transforming into each other.)

EDIT - Ninja'ed (Swordsages are only sometimes Ninja-esque, so I've never thought that usage was fitting; if Ninja is too weak then why not "Invisible Bladed" or something?)

EDIT 2 -
Others, I have ideas for, but haven't written them out yet. These four, though, I have no idea where to stick them.

Isidoros is the core of a black hole, roughly hewn into the shape of a colossal boar. He's utterly oblivious to the world outside of himself, largely due to his nature being antithetical to nearly all things. He destroys, but not intentionally. He's just incapable of restraining himself; like a tornado in a china shop.

Metagaos is a swamp that devours everything, albeit slowly. He eats matter, energy, even thoughts, ideas, space, and time. He's largely just a collection of hungers, putting on facades to lure food into the bog from which they'll never escape, but never truly feeling anything above the Id.

Kimbery is an ocean. Which is also sort of a womb in a mother-of-all-monsters kind of way. From her poisonous waters, she continually births new and horrifying leviathan-children to do her bidding, feeds them on spite and venom, and sends them forth to fulfill her own inscrutable designs. She's quite emotionally unstable, flipping between love and hate at the drop of a hat, with a lot of help and nurturing to give, and infinitely more punishment.

Cytherea is a big bang. Or possibly The Big Bang. She's considered the Mother Of All, and is somehow capable of transferring a portion of her immense power into others, but is incapable of acting on her own behalf. Other than that, there's not much known about her, even in Exalted.

I had a few ideas on them which differ from AfroAkuma's.

* The closest thing to a Mother of Monsters ocean-creature that I can think of in D&D, apart from possibly the Kuo-Toa's rather absurd goddess, is the vestige Eurynome, Mother of the Material, who was originally a Titan who danced on the waves and separated heaven from earth. Perhaps Kimbery was imprisoned with or in place of Eurynome in wherever the vestiges are kept, or maybe Eurynome originally had a demensne in the home plane of the titans (assuming they have one), and when she fell to Vestigehood that location was abandoned until Kimbery was bound there to take Eurynome's place in the original myth-cycle.

* Isidoros seems like solipsism incarnate, which definitely means he has to go in someplace Chaotic and Evil; perhaps he was the first prisoner of Carceri, whose hatred for his own confinment echoed out and turned that entire plane into a prison-dimension, long before anyone else had ever been sentenced there.

* The I-think-third layer of Hell is a swamp into which everything slowly sinks (except the city of Kytons which is chained to the ceiling of the layer above). Fairly obvious fit for Metagaos.

* No clue on Cytherea, except that "transfers her power to others but has none of her own" could apply to a number of power sources in D&D. One thing worth noting is the Sapphire Eidolon, a being of pure Incarnum (Incarnum is sort of like solidified positive energy, though not exactly) which teaches its Sapphire Hierarch servants that everything which exists is part of a single truth or continuum or something - it's an arch-Lawful being, plus y'know sentient in general, so it's almost certainly not an exact fit for Cytherea. But possibly it could be some shard of her that split off and escaped her imprisonment in the Bastion of Souls on the PEP or something? I'm not at all sure on this part though.

[Deadline]

I've got some more questions for you:

1. What can you tell me about the Friendly Fiend in Sigil beyond the fact that he appears to be a friendly shopkeeper?

2. What can you tell me about the Dabus?

3. Is there a canon description of the all or part of the Infinite Staircase? If so, what is it?

[willpell]

There is some info about the Staircase in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes, though certainly more exists elsewhere. Akuma probably knows at least some of that elsewhere, hopefully he can help you with that and perhaps the other two questions.

[afroakuma]

I've got some more questions for you:

1. What can you tell me about the Friendly Fiend in Sigil beyond the fact that he appears to be a friendly shopkeeper?

The expression "a friendly fiend" means something very rare; the Friendly Fiend is a shop that deals in curios, magical items and (under the table) information. It's run by A'kin, the "friendly fiend" himself, an arcanaloth who's disturbingly pleasant and generous. It's rumored that he might be a rival to Shemeshka the Marauder, who has been in Sigil for nearly as long.


2. What can you tell me about the Dabus?

The dabus are the Lady of Pain's silent attendants, caretakers of Sigil and monitors of its curious "order." They communicate for themselves or for the Lady by projecting rebuses above their heads, which require interpretation. All dabus float above the ground - all except for one, Fell, who dared to worship the interloper god Aoskar. Fell is now an outcast, running a tattoo parlor in the Market Ward.


3. Is there a cannon description of the all or part of the Infinite Staircase? If so, what is it?

Of all of it? No. It's infinite. :smallwink:

There is, however, a splendid adventure module from 2E called Tales of the Infinite Staircase. I rather liked it.

The Infinite Staircase is a planar pathway unlike any other; with its base at the Gates of the Moon in Ysgard, it extends upward, terraces hosting doors that connect to significant places of creativity around the multiverse. The Staircase has no consistent design; across its thousands of thousands of steps and terraces are nearly as many architectural styles. The Staircase is protected and supervised by the lillendi and a number of shards.

It is said that somewhere on the Staircase lies a door for each individual, leading to the "city of your heart's desire." The chant holds that the door waits for everyone, but if you leave this city, you may never find your way back.

[enderlord99]

Is Tharizdun (or however it's spelled) the Prisoner of Elysium? Come to think of it, is Tharizdun even part of 3.5?

[afroakuma]

Is Tharizdun (or however it's spelled) the Prisoner of Elysium? Come to think of it, is Tharizdun even part of 3.5?

Tharizdun is in 3.5, yes, and he's not the Prisoner of Elysium.

[enderlord99]

Vestiges have to exist somewhere. Where?

[Xervous]

1. Are any major players in the PTC named in canon other than Estavan?
2. I read somewhere that Zadara the Titan has wealth equal to or greater than that of a thousand prime worlds, any rough estimates on this (exponentials?) and how it might compare to the supposed size of deities' hoards (of those that are known to keep hoards)?

[afroakuma]

Vestiges have to exist somewhere. Where?

They exist "outside." What that means isn't precisely clear; it has been posited by some scholars that they may exist on the theoretical "Ordial Plane." They certainly do not inhabit the Far Realm, nor any of the Outer or Inner Planes. None of the known Transitive Planes would be a suitable medium for them, either.


1. Are any major players in the PTC named in canon other than Estavan?

Not that I'm aware of; only a competitor, Aleena Jerkot. It's likely that at least one factol is a player in the PTC, though.


2. I read somewhere that Zadara the Titan has wealth equal to or greater than that of a thousand prime worlds, any rough estimates on this (exponentials?) and how it might compare to the supposed size of deities' hoards (of those that are known to keep hoards)?

You could probably do some math on that using your DMG, but I'm not a big fan of undertaking such exercises. I do suspect that Zadara inflated that figure by tallying the sorts of Prime worlds that don't have much (or anything) of value, but she's definitely immensely wealthy. Most gods concerned with wealth would probably trump her holdings, however; Zadara has certain aspirations that trump even her considerable purchasing power, which suggests that such powers as could aid her and would be interested find her tenders insufficient.

[Lord_Gareth]

So I've been looking at Lichfiend (Libris Mortis) and I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend what would make undeath seem like a good idea to any fiend, let alone a spellcasting one. What would tempt a denizen of the Lower Planes to trade in their immorality for a much crappier version of immortality?

[ShadowFireLance]

What is the Exact amount of planes in the Current Universe?
(And What be their names?)
(Perhaps Demiplanes as well, Only those noted though)

[Lord_Gareth]

Is it possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane? If so, what kind of plane would it be? How would one (or more) go about doing that?

[Eldan]

They exist "outside." What that means isn't precisely clear; it has been posited by some scholars that they may exist on the theoretical "Ordial Plane." They certainly do not inhabit the Far Realm, nor any of the Outer or Inner Planes. None of the known Transitive Planes would be a suitable medium for them, either.

I don't know... I could see them fitting into the Astral Plane. There are some interpretations of that plane around that border on the lovecraftian. And it is the multiverse's outside, so to speak. The behind, too. And the between. It really had a lot of things now associated with the Far Realm, back in Planescape.

Demiplanes growing into true planes is hinted at, at least. In the AD&D Planescape books, Shadow was mentioned to be the biggest known demiplane. There was a theory back then that it would soon grow into a full plane. Given that it is a full plane in third edition, I guess it succeeded.

[Lord_Gareth]

Why is it that the corpses of gods seem to end up, inevitably, on the Astral Plane?

[afroakuma]

So I've been looking at Lichfiend (Libris Mortis) and I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend what would make undeath seem like a good idea to any fiend, let alone a spellcasting one. What would tempt a denizen of the Lower Planes to trade in their immorality for a much crappier version of immortality?

Depends which fiend, and what they like to do. Yes, for fiends that spend a good deal of time on the Material Plane, outsider immortality is the way to go. However, on their home plane, outsiders are much more vulnerable. A phylactery offers additional insurance above and beyond that which an outsider forms with. Note that the lichfiend rules are... really really really awful, to say the least, and don't specify a type change or the application of a template. All it says is that the lichfiend "gains all the abilities of a lich," which does not include its type (though it may include abilities and immunities arising from its type) or its hit die.

Basically, the lazily-written book didn't think it through at all, which means as written it looks like a pretty good deal for +0 CR.

[Deadline]

Is Tharizdun (or however it's spelled) the Prisoner of Elysium? Come to think of it, is Tharizdun even part of 3.5?

Tharizdun is strongly hinted at being the prisoner that is held by the Demiplane of Imprisonment (Dragon #353 article on demiplanes). (I believe the author of that part of the article as much as said it).

[Xefas]

Man, the Outer Planes have a lot of prisons. What about schools? I know we've got Sigil Prep, at least. IIRC, there's a law/political-science school in Baator named Grenpoli. Are there any others specifically spelled out anywhere?

[Coidzor]

I think this the last followup on that prime material plane line of questioning, but in the Planescape setting at least are there multiple worlds within the prime material plane then? If so, how are they set up, some semblance of our real-world understanding of space and planets? More like layers of the Prime Material Plane the same way the Outer Planes have layers?

Some combination of the two where there's partial layering in some cases where it's the "same place but different" so to speak or a bizarro-world version of a world occupying semi-overlapping metaspace?

Or have I just accidentally absorbed a bit too much fanon from others when I was learning about planescape and never quite separated them properly? I'd swear I've heard of primes that weren't all from the same world before...

Also, I apologize if you're already answered this one, but what's your take on the metaphysical implications of making a sapient undead that's at least theoretically the same person as the corpse from a corpse of a person who is also currently alive in a different body? Just doesn't work? Similar to trying to bring back someone who isn't willing?

Is there any level of personal power that a mortal can acquire without ascending to godhood/just outright becoming an archfiend or planar equivalent that would make a mortal more valuable to a planar, in this case let's take a fiend, as a servant of some sort rather than a soul in a gem or a bog-standard fiend? Is it more a matter of philosophical purity above pragmatism or just that in order to have someone be useful rather than a mind-wiped petitioner, piece of currency, or larval fiend that's not going to retain any of the originating soul's power over that of, say, an ant if ants have souls, it requires that enough power be capable of being invested/worth the effort to make someone into a unique Arch-Outsider of whatever stripe?

[afroakuma]

What is the Exact amount of planes in the Current Universe?
(And What be their names?)
(Perhaps Demiplanes as well, Only those noted though)

I'm not up to mounting a count of demiplanes, so here are the rest:

Inner Planes
• Elemental Plane of Air
• Elemental Plane of Earth
• Elemental Plane of Fire
• Elemental Plane of Water

• Para-Elemental Plane of Ice
• Para-Elemental Plane of Magma
• Para-Elemental Plane of Ooze
• Para-Elemental Plane of Smoke

• Positive Energy Plane
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Lightning
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Minerals
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Steam

• Negative Energy Plane
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Ash
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Dust
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Salt
• • Quasi-Elemental Plane of Vacuum

Material Plane

Outer Planes
• The Abyss
• Acheron
• Arborea
• Arcadia
• Baator
• The Beastlands
• Bytopia
• Carceri
• Celestia
• Elysium
• Gehenna
• Hades
• Limbo
• Mechanus
• The Outlands
• Pandemonium
• Ysgard

Transitive Planes
• Astral Plane
• Ethereal Plane
• Plane of Shadow

Unique Planes (sometimes not counted)
• Plane of Faerie
• Plane of Mirrors
• Region of Dreams
• Spirit World
• Temporal Energy Plane

Xenoreality (not part of this or any multiverse)
• Far Realm

Speculative Planes (also not counted)
Planes of Cordance
• Avalon
• Discordia
• K'un Lun
• Nether
• Pangea
• Perdition
• Purgatory
• Sheol

Ordial Plane

Semi-Elemental Planes
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Clay
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Crystals
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Frost
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Fumes
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Obsidian
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Pumice
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Silt
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Sparks

[afroakuma]

Is it possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane? If so, what kind of plane would it be? How would one (or more) go about doing that?

How can I word this...

It is possible for a demiplane to expand into a true plane. It is not possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane.

[Lord_Gareth]

How can I word this...

It is possible for a demiplane to expand into a true plane. It is not possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane.

Meaning it cannot be done deliberately, but it sometimes happens because of natural, supernatural, or accidental causes?

[afroakuma]

Why is it that the corpses of gods seem to end up, inevitably, on the Astral Plane?

The Astral Plane is the conduit of thought and belief. A part of every power has always been there in some fashion; that which remains is collected there and guarded by Anubis.

[Coidzor]

How can I word this...

It is possible for a demiplane to expand into a true plane. It is not possible to expand a demiplane into a true plane.

So the demiplane can expand to the point where it becomes part of an existing true plane (presumably the material plane?) but it cannot expand to the point where it ceases to be a demiplane and becomes a true plane in its own right? Did I get that right?

[Yora]

I think it's a fancy way of saying that it can happen, but you can not force it?

[Coidzor]

I think it's a fancy way of saying that it can happen, but you can not force it?

I think it could be scanned either way, really. :smallconfused: But I'm not 100% on top of my game today.

[afroakuma]

Man, the Outer Planes have a lot of prisons. What about schools? I know we've got Sigil Prep, at least. IIRC, there's a law/political-science school in Baator named Grenpoli. Are there any others specifically spelled out anywhere?

There's a small school in the Clerks' Ward known as the Scriptorium, dedicated to language. Educational facilities linked to the Musée Arcane in Sigil also provide tutelage. The great universities of Mechanus sprawl across many cogs, while the celestials have the Towers of Persuasion, where champions of redemption and virtue are brought to learn how to argue morality. Acheron has massive boot camps for armies, Arcadia has many lyceae, Limbo has of course the famous kitten electric mammogram baroque Hollandaise buttress indigo ramp gardener, and most factions run institutes of their own philosophy across the planes.

[afroakuma]

I think this the last followup on that prime material plane line of questioning, but in the Planescape setting at least are there multiple worlds within the prime material plane then? If so, how are they set up, some semblance of our real-world understanding of space and planets? More like layers of the Prime Material Plane the same way the Outer Planes have layers?

Planescape and Spelljammer were alternate ways of bridging the other settings of 2E, but they were also capable of coexisting (and did, in some novels!) The Prime Material Plane of Spelljammer (crystal spheres, phlogiston, all that good stuff) is the Prime Material Plane of Planescape, featuring multiple worlds (Krynn, Oerth and Toril being the big three).

So, you can have Primes from Krynn and Primes from Oerth and Primes from Toril and Primes from the Rock of Bral, etc. etc.


Also, I apologize if you're already answered this one, but what's your take on the metaphysical implications of making a sapient undead that's at least theoretically the same person as the corpse from a corpse of a person who is also currently alive in a different body? Just doesn't work? Similar to trying to bring back someone who isn't willing?

There's only one soul; you can fill a corpse with a different soul, but if the soul is walking around over there in a new body, you can't also have it over here. Mind you, you might be able to convince the new soul that it is the old one... and there may also be ways to force the soul out of the living body and into the corpse, if you're really so inclined.


Is there any level of personal power that a mortal can acquire without ascending to godhood/just outright becoming an archfiend or planar equivalent that would make a mortal more valuable to a planar, in this case let's take a fiend, as a servant of some sort rather than a soul in a gem or a bog-standard fiend?

Well, the difficulty there is that powerful souls escalate in value, so... it would be a very fine balancing act.


Is it more a matter of philosophical purity above pragmatism or just that in order to have someone be useful rather than a mind-wiped petitioner, piece of currency, or larval fiend that's not going to retain any of the originating soul's power over that of, say, an ant if ants have souls, it requires that enough power be capable of being invested/worth the effort to make someone into a unique Arch-Outsider of whatever stripe?

Fiends don't make archfiends. They don't like creating competition. Your best bet if you're looking to be a powerful servant of a fiend is to stay on the Prime. Being in a place where that fiend cannot or should not go, and executing duties there, is the best way to keep value in your current state.

[afroakuma]

Meaning it cannot be done deliberately, but it sometimes happens because of natural, supernatural, or accidental causes?

Well, "natural" for planar mechanics, yes.

[Deadline]

Given that I don't have and haven't read the newer fiendish codex series, could you give a solid outline of what the Pact Primevil is, and what it governs?

[AuraTwilight]

Planes of Cordance
• Avalon
• Discordia
• K'un Lun
• Nether
• Pangea
• Perdition
• Purgatory
• Sheol

Where can one read more about these?

[afroakuma]

Given that I don't have and haven't read the newer fiendish codex series, could you give a solid outline of what the Pact Primevil is, and what it governs?


The Pact Primeval was a powerful document signed by Asmodeus and the gods of law to basically assign Asmodeus the position of cosmic jail warden. The gods were tired of having to deal with wicked souls personally, so Asmodeus (a former angel who, with his minions were designed to defeat the primordial chaos of the universe---read: demons---and in the course of fighting with them, began to take on their evil characteristics) volunteered to be the one to deal with evil souls.

This deal involved Asmodeus being given domain over the Nine Hells, since the gods didn't want him splattering the blood of wicked souls all over their polished marble floors in the Heavens. Asmodeus moved in, and began his duties, but the gods realized that he was not only actively corrupting and entrapping souls to ensure their damnation, but was siphoning power off the souls of the wicked mortals he was capturing.

The gods were aghast, but apparently, they didn't read the fine print. (Source: Fiendish Codex 2)

The Pact itself is written on three copies, if I'm not mistaken; one in the Heavens, one in Mechanus, and one in the Nine Hells. Each copy is an artifact of overwhelming good, overwhelming law and overwhelming evil.

Pretty much what I would have said, right there.


Where can one read more about these?

Why, one can do that right here (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/cordance.html)!

In brief, the Planes of Cordance are very obscure Outer Planes that occupy the spaces between the Outlands and the eight planes of pure alignment. As Bytopia is the midpoint between lawful good and neutral good, these planes are the midpoint between pure neutrality and pure alignment.

[Xervous]

How many documented entities have exhibited power comparable to/greater than the deities beyond the following?
Various elder evils (the ones capable of killing gods)
Queen of Pain

-

[afroakuma]

How many documented entities have exhibited power comparable to/greater than the deities beyond the following?
Various elder evils (the ones capable of killing gods)
Queen of Pain

-

Apart from Pandorym and the Lady of Pain, it's pretty much just gods that have that level of power. I wouldn't put it past some of the planar rulers to be capable of dealing serious injury or death to a deity, but the nature of gods is such that the only recorded entities to have power that they consider threatening are inscrutable mysteries of uncertain origin.

There are, of course, creatures such as abominations that possess immense power from their divine origins, but most of these couldn't seriously worry a god.

The only other entities that gods might fear are far from "documented," for they arise from the time before the current existence of the multiverse. The most known of these are the draedens, beings of an older order who despise contact with the current reality and have entered a deep slumber to await the end of the multiverse.

[Answerer]

Pandorym? Who's he/she/it?

[afroakuma]

Pandorym? Who's he/she/it?

Pandorym is an entity found in Elder Evils; a vast, destructive impetus from outside the multiverse, it was called into this reality by an ancient cabal of wizards who split its mind and body into two separate prisons, hoping to use its existence to threaten the gods.

[Xervous]

Generally, how does an angel fall?
What varying degrees of "fall" are there and what happens by those degrees?

[Larkas]

Where, exactly, is the prison for the Dragon from Dark Sun?

[afroakuma]

Where, exactly, is the prison for the Dragon from Dark Sun?

Prison for the Dragon? Last I checked he was quite free and being wildly unpleasant as is his normal wont.

[Larkas]

Prison for the Dragon? Last I checked he was quite free and being wildly unpleasant as is his normal wont.

Wait, wasn't he imprisoned in the Black below the Gray... Or something? Or am I misremembering which character is who?

[Lord_Gareth]

Generally, how does an angel fall?
What varying degrees of "fall" are there and what happens by those degrees?

Angels 'fall' by becoming non-good. There are various ways this happens, but for the most part all of them are exceedingly rare; like a modron turning chaotic (happened in canon), a slaadi becoming lawful (canon) or a fiend becoming good (canon) the very act is SO antithetical to their natures that ANY case of it is by definition an exceptional case.

With that in mind, the most "common" (if such a term can be applied here) cause is corruption by evil. They become like the thing they hate (Asmodeus), abandon their principles in favor of expedience (soldiers) or are infected by hubris, dark magic, or both (Merikel). Every now and then - and this is so rare that you can probably see the rise and fall of entire player races between it happening - an angel just...goes bad. Something happens to them, like the death of a loved one or a loss in battle, and they just snap like elastic bands and go insane.

As far as 'degrees' of falling, most angels that 'fall' land in the area of N, often becoming private citizens and congregating in the direction of Sigil. Depending on their alignment, they may instead choose to pursue a mission (Lawful), swear allegiance to another power (any) or seek shelter on the Material (any, but usually Chaotic). Angels managing to fall all the way to Evil are much rarer, and either manage to carve themselves a niche as unique Outsiders of the appropriate alignment (Asmodeus, Merikel) or else eventually mutate into an appropriate fiendish race due to exposure to the background energies of their new home.

[afroakuma]

Wait, wasn't he imprisoned in the Dark below the Gray... Or something?

Oh. Rajaat. Rajaat is imprisoned in an unusual sort of demiplane called The Hollow, which exists under The Black, a form of Shadow Plane for the world of Athas.

[Larkas]

Oh. Rajaat. Rajaat is imprisoned in an unusual sort of demiplane called The Hollow, which exists under The Black, a form of Shadow Plane for the world of Athas.

Aaaah, Rajaat, that's his name. Got it! What about the Gray? Is it the Ethereal or something?

[afroakuma]

Aaaah, Rajaat, that's his name. Got it! What about the Gray? Is it the Ethereal or something?

The Gray is a sort of buffer zone separating Athas from its Border Ethereal and connections to the Astral Plane. One can't get to and from the Planes without penetrating the Gray; however, this is all but impossible to do from the Astral side (making it very difficult to access the Outer Planes) and still fairly tricky from the Ethereal side. Further, the Gray is a "net" of sorts for dead souls, trapping them inside as they leave the Material Plane and gradually wearing them into oblivion.

[Lord_Gareth]

So, planar-race Druids. Are they a thing? What role do they play in their societies?

[silverwolfer]

Look up planar shepherd :D


Astral skiffs, could they be used to transport an army from one point of the material plane, to another point through the astral plane?

[Chilingsworth]

Three things (but apparently, more than three questions) that have tended to confuse me, and are potentially relevant to some of my characters:

1: What happens to called outsiders that die away from their home planes? I know that the PHB says that they die for real, but I've seen other sources (notably the fiendish codex) that seem to contadict that. Does it vary between different types of outsiders/other called creatures (e.g. inevitables)?
Practical application: Would the trick of planar binding an outsider, forcing a service out of it, then killing it before it can escape (if needed, before the service is actually completed, but after you've gotten some use out of them) have any benefit? Such as denying them the chance to seek vengence on you afterwords?

2: How much of their experiences do summoned creatures remember?
Practical application: How much should a spellcaster worry about a summoned creature being able to report on his/her activites when it is returned its home plane? Examples: an evil wizard forcing some sort of celestial to do its dirty work being ratted out to the celestial's supperiors, a malconvoker's minions being interogated by their superiors for intel about his/her activities.

3: Is useage of souls worthwhile for mortals? I ask because the only way I know for a mortal to take a soul is the soul trap spell, which is ridiculously expensive to use considering the limited uses I know of for a soul. The only use I can think of offhand is to provide crafting xp, but a soul only provides 10xp for that purpose. Even at a minimum cost of 1000gp (for a one hitdie creature,) trap the soul is not an economical way to get souls if that is their only use.

[Answerer]

It's implied by Conjuration (Summoning) spells that the spells do not "yoink" a, say, a lion from Celestia to fight for you. Rather, it takes the "stuff" of the other planes (e.g. the Good-stuff of Celestia) and gives it the form of the creature you're summoning (e.g. a lion). This stuff basically dissipates formlessly when the spell ends or the creature is killed.

This is also the argument for the alignment descriptors on summoning spells: even if you never lose control of the creature, you've brought a little more Good/Evil/Law/Chaos into the world by using the spell.


Whether any of this is good, interesting, or meshes well with the existing Planescape fluff, I have no idea.

[AuraTwilight]

It's implied by Conjuration (Summoning) spells that the spells do not "yoink" a, say, a lion from Celestia to fight for you. Rather, it takes the "stuff" of the other planes (e.g. the Good-stuff of Celestia) and gives it the form of the creature you're summoning (e.g. a lion). This stuff basically dissipates formlessly when the spell ends or the creature is killed.

Where is this implied? The text in the Player's Handbook outright states that the 'creature' is coming from somewhere and goes back at the spell's end.

[Wrathof42]

What's up with the Infinite Staircase? More specifically while I've been able to find very good rules for traveling it in the Fiendish Codex, but for the life of me can't find much else.
1.How does one get on the staircase in the first place? Do you literally have to stumble through a door or find out the location of one somehow?
2.Who built(ds) it and why?
3.If it really leads to all the places it supposedly does, why isn't it used more often?

[afroakuma]

Astral skiffs, could they be used to transport an army from one point of the material plane, to another point through the astral plane?

I don't speak 4E, sorry.


Three things (but apparently, more than three questions) that have tended to confuse me, and are potentially relevant to some of my characters:

1: What happens to called outsiders that die away from their home planes? I know that the PHB says that they die for real, but I've seen other sources (notably the fiendish codex) that seem to contadict that. Does it vary between different types of outsiders/other called creatures (e.g. inevitables)?
Practical application: Would the trick of planar binding an outsider, forcing a service out of it, then killing it before it can escape (if needed, before the service is actually completed, but after you've gotten some use out of them) have any benefit? Such as denying them the chance to seek vengence on you afterwords?

Many types of fiend see their essences retreat to the Lower Planes to reform; this is typically a time-consuming process and usually results in a power drop, but most fiends would be willing to wait it out and would definitely nurse a grudge.

Many types of celestial are similarly "rescued" by the Upper Planes; unlike the Lower Planes, though, a celestial likely has many who would seek to avenge such a sin on hand.

Modrons, formians and inevitables do not reform; however, many formians can report back to their hives; all modrons provide their intellect to Primus; and inevitables that fail in a duty are replaced by an upgraded model.

Slaad go boom.


2: How much of their experiences do summoned creatures remember?
Practical application: How much should a spellcaster worry about a summoned creature being able to report on his/her activites when it is returned its home plane? Examples: an evil wizard forcing some sort of celestial to do its dirty work being ratted out to the celestial's supperiors, a malconvoker's minions being interogated by their superiors for intel about his/her activities.

Summoned creatures remember everything as though they were there.


3: Is useage of souls worthwhile for mortals? I ask because the only way I know for a mortal to take a soul is the soul trap spell, which is ridiculously expensive to use considering the limited uses I know of for a soul. The only use I can think of offhand is to provide crafting xp, but a soul only provides 10xp for that purpose. Even at a minimum cost of 1000gp (for a one hitdie creature,) trap the soul is not an economical way to get souls if that is their only use.

Depends what you plan to use it for. The practical uses of a soul are not typically Material Plane applications - you can't use it to concoct the perfect batch of kettle corn. The applications they have are potent and evil; you can use a larva to increase a spell's DC, and spell gems can be consumed for a big boost to smashing through spell resistance.

Seriously, 10 XP? Where did you get that figure from?

[silverwolfer]

I don't speak 4E, sorry.





That is from the planar handbook.....

[willpell]

Why is it that the corpses of gods seem to end up, inevitably, on the Astral Plane?

For that matter, why do gods HAVE corpses? Or physical forms of any sort? Shouldn't they be more, I dunno, immanent? (Unless of course the point of the game is to go kill them, I know some campaigns have done so, but personally I'd think ability to be killed is kind of contrary to counting as an actual god, outside of certain mythologies that explicitly allow for it.)


Also, I apologize if you're already answered this one, but what's your take on the metaphysical implications of making a sapient undead that's at least theoretically the same person as the corpse from a corpse of a person who is also currently alive in a different body? Just doesn't work? Similar to trying to bring back someone who isn't willing?

This is mostly an "ask your dm" but I'd say that if you make a Wight or Lich or something out of a body that's died, regardless of where the soul is, your new undead buddy has a mind which is "copied" from whatever was in the brain at time of death, but does not have a soul. That's just my opinion offhand, possibly not even the way I'd rule in a campaign...I'd have to think about it and it might depend a lot on the specifics.


• Avalon
• Discordia
• K'un Lun
• Nether
• Pangea
• Perdition
• Purgatory
• Sheol

What are these?


• Semi-Elemental Plane of Pumice

Whaaaat? (Not so much "what is it", this time, as "why is it" - ie who thought this was deserving of an entire plane? I'm beginning to see where the Ranch Dressing gag a few dozen strips ago came from.)


from the Rock of Bral.

Ees whaaa???


Astral skiffs, could they be used to transport an army from one point of the material plane, to another point through the astral plane?

More generally, what need does anyone have for a ship on the astral plane, given that they can just choose to fly around?


What's up with the Infinite Staircase?

You may be interested in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14467521&postcount=140).


3.If it really leads to all the places it supposedly does, why isn't it used more often?

Unless it says otherwise in FC2, the big stumbling block to using the Staircase is that there's no reliable way of getting to it. It just randomly shows up sometimes; it won't be there the next time you revisit that place, and there's no known "call button". (Basically it's a plot device and shows up at the DM's whim.)

[enderlord99]

I don't speak 4E, sorry.

I do, and that wasn't it.

[Xervous]

page 33 of BoVD, "souls as power" says 10xp per soul. Must've been using rat souls or something.

Question: How many different documented shadow creatures are there? I'm having trouble finding ones beyond the elementals, shadows, shadow djinn, shadow mastiff, and Shadar kai

Question: It appears that there are very few cases to examine for beings ascending to godhood, how did vecna do it? How much of a following is required to "sustain" a god?

[afroakuma]

What's up with the Infinite Staircase? More specifically while I've been able to find very good rules for traveling it in the Fiendish Codex, but for the life of me can't find much else.
1.How does one get on the staircase in the first place? Do you literally have to stumble through a door or find out the location of one somehow?

Essentially. The doors are random, often appearing in abandoned, dark or disused places. It takes effort to track one down.


2.Who built(ds) it and why?

Unknown! It may have always been a part of the planes, a natural structure that inspired its earliest discoverers to become a part of its growth and development. The goddess Selune likes to take credit for being one of its patrons, but that's just because the Staircase grounds itself in her realm on nights with a full moon. It's certain that whoever or whatever built it, the lillends have claimed it wholeheartedly.


3.If it really leads to all the places it supposedly does, why isn't it used more often?

Well, firstly, it's horribly inconvenient for anyone with cargo to carry - being a staircase, and all that. You're also going to need a guide if you have a specific destination in mind; fortunately, there are a great many available.

Some people (read: fiends) are averse to being in the realm of the lillends, while others are annoyed at the inconsistency of it. It's still very heavily traveled, but there are other planar pathways (the Oceanus, the Styx, Yggdrasil, Olympus) with a great deal more utility for larger-scale trips.

[willpell]

Question: How many different documented shadow creatures are there? I'm having trouble finding ones beyond the elementals, shadows, shadow djinn, shadow mastiff, and Shadar kai

The Shadowcaster section of Tome of Magic offers a bunch of shadow-themed creatures, including an elemental and a djinn, as well as the Dark Creature template, a mild revamping of Shadow Creature from the Manual of the Planes. Not sure if a Shadesteel Golem counts. Doubtless there are others. IMC, I also rule that Nightshades are shadow-elemental rather than undead, though they can still be Turned.


Question: It appears that there are very few cases to examine for beings ascending to godhood, how did vecna do it? How much of a following is required to "sustain" a god?

If there was a reliable recipie, no matter how difficult, it would happen every other week. Figure that the methods are going to be different every time and always vanishingly rare. Whether a god needs anything from his followers varies from campaign to campaign; Deities and Demigods does a halfway-decent job of talking through some of the implications of yea or nay.

[afroakuma]

That is from the planar handbook.....

Is it? Wow. Web search gave me nothing but 4E results. Serves me right for not memorizing the player book.

So let's see... transport from the Material Plane? Almost certainly not. You'd have to be able to get the thing to the Astral, firstly, and if your gate is vertical then you need to propel it in somehow (man the oars!) If your gate is horizontal, you'll risk damage to the ship as it compensates for the transition between the gravity of the Material Plane and the motile force it needs on the Astral. And then of course, you need to procure a gate in the first place. No, I wouldn't consider this vehicle suitable for that purpose.

[afroakuma]

For that matter, why do gods HAVE corpses? Or physical forms of any sort? Shouldn't they be more, I dunno, immanent? (Unless of course the point of the game is to go kill them, I know some campaigns have done so, but personally I'd think ability to be killed is kind of contrary to counting as an actual god, outside of certain mythologies that explicitly allow for it.)

Gods in D&D can die from many factors; the chief threat to them is starvation of worship, which decreases their power and gradually erodes them until they fade away. Death by cosmic violence is much less common, but it's happened on a few occasions. There have also been special situations such as the Time of Troubles, in which contained divinities were made vulnerable on the mortal world, and the appearance of the Last Word, a power capable of destroying nearly anything.


What are these?

Planes of Cordance - hypothetical planes situated between true neutrality and pure alignment.


More generally, what need does anyone have for a ship on the astral plane, given that they can just choose to fly around?

Speed, direction, unified motion, cargo...

[afroakuma]

page 33 of BoVD, "souls as power" says 10xp per soul. Must've been using rat souls or something.

MONNNNNTEEEEEEEEE. :smallfurious:

The book also lists pre-receptacled souls selling for 200 gp, though, so you can chalk that one up to someone not doing their homework.


Question: How many different documented shadow creatures are there? I'm having trouble finding ones beyond the elementals, shadows, shadow djinn, shadow mastiff, and Shadar kai

*cracks knuckles*

Okay, so, we have:

Shadowcloaks, darkweavers, shadow asps, your odd shadow giant, dark creatures, darkness pseudo-elementals, shadow elementals, khayal genies, shadesteel golems, nightshades, shadow creatures, shadow beasts, shadow eft, shadow jellies, shadow mastiffs, shadow spiders, skiurids, a few vasuthants and veserabs.

Those are only things from published WotC books and Dragon magazines pertaining to 3.X, but that should still be enough of a list to get you going.


Question: It appears that there are very few cases to examine for beings ascending to godhood, how did vecna do it? How much of a following is required to "sustain" a god?

Vecna accrued a ton of personal power, performed a lot of rituals and of course, carved his name across the world (figuratively). Even then, he was a pretty weak power until he stole some of Iuz's divinity.

[Lord_Gareth]

So, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft famously disrupt communication between a follower and their deity. Are there any other ways that this can happen? How can such a situation be rectified?

[afroakuma]

So, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft famously disrupt communication between a follower and their deity. Are there any other ways that this can happen? How can such a situation be rectified?

Of course there are. One of the most famous would be the effect that Pandorym's mind has on a world when it begins to wake, slowly choking divine magic and sealing a world away from the Planes.

As to how to rectify it: remove the obstruction.

[Lord_Gareth]

Do the various planar races even bother taking notice of organizations like the Knights of the Chalice (dedicated to slaying fiends), or are mortals 'beneath' such consideration?

[afroakuma]

Do the various planar races even bother taking notice of organizations like the Knights of the Chalice (dedicated to slaying fiends), or are mortals 'beneath' such consideration?

Some members of some races do. It's not like it's a racewide thing.

[Talderas]

That said, there are other Material Planes. They can be traveled to by entering the Deep Ethereal, or trekking into the secret routes in the Plane of Shadow.

The Ethereal, Shadow, and Astral planes can all be used as transit planes in some fashion. The Astral is obviously known for its link between planes yet you can also use the Ethereal and Shadow planes to travel great distances on the plane you are currently residing. The spells and abilities that permit this function on outer and inner planes.

Since other material planes can be reached via the Shadow or Ethereal planes, could inner (for the shadow) and outer planes also be reached in this manner, does each of the outer/inner planes have their own Shadow/Ethereal plane, or is there an "Outer" Shadow/Ethereal an "Inner" Shadow/Ethereal, and a "Material" Shadow Ethereal that permits travel between planes of the same category?

Would the Shadow or Ethereal planes permit travel to the Ordial plane?

What methods do you believe exist, beyond the Astral plane, to transition between planes and what restrictions do they have?

Does Outlands also block means of traveling that use the Shadow or Ethereal plane as well as methods that use the Astral?


I don't think Mechanus is any more or less alive than any other Outer Plane. Take from that what you will. I was a part of the silliness that originally suggested Mechanus to be secretly the Ultimate Inevitable, though. :smallbiggrin:

Would that make Mechanus Unicron or Primus?


Their belief is mistaken. The original adventure featuring the Far Realm made exactly this point: that persons of sufficient power, foresight and knowledge were wrong. It's a Lovecraftian notion: the mortal mind cannot reasonably contend with what lies beyond the great rift.

Can an immortal mind contend with what lies beyond?

[Greenish]

Look up planar shepherd :DPlanar Shepherds are drawn from material plane races, and anyway originate from Eberron with it's non-standard cosmology.

[afroakuma]

The Ethereal, Shadow, and Astral planes can all be used as transit planes in some fashion. The Astral is obviously known for its link between planes yet you can also use the Ethereal and Shadow planes to travel great distances on the plane you are currently residing. The spells and abilities that permit this function on outer and inner planes.

Actually they don't, necessarily (Manual of the Planes p.46). Spells that use the Transitive Planes only function when cast in places that are coexistent with or coterminous with that Transitive Plane.


Since other material planes can be reached via the Shadow or Ethereal planes, could inner (for the shadow) and outer planes also be reached in this manner

Nope; of course, if you move through the Deep Ethereal to the Border of a different cosmology, you may find rifts there...


does each of the outer/inner planes have their own Shadow/Ethereal plane, or is there an "Outer" Shadow/Ethereal an "Inner" Shadow/Ethereal, and a "Material" Shadow Ethereal that permits travel between planes of the same category?

They do not have such links or planes at all.


Would the Shadow or Ethereal planes permit travel to the Ordial plane?

No.


What methods do you believe exist, beyond the Astral plane, to transition between planes and what restrictions do they have?

Portals exist that go directly from one plane to another, with no middle ground. These can be established with powerful magic (such as a gate spell) for short periods of time or amplified with mighty structures and eldritch components to become more static. Certain unique planes (Dream, Faerie) have special means of accessing them, while others (Temporal Prime) are difficult to access by any means whatsoever and a few (the Far Realm) are all but impossible.


Does Outlands also block means of traveling that use the Shadow or Ethereal plane as well as methods that use the Astral?

The Outlands is not coexistent with the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, so such means are inherently impossible save at rare coterminous points. Within 500 miles of the Spire, there are no coterminous points between the Outlands and any other plane.


Can an immortal mind contend with what lies beyond?

They never try; make of that what you will. Given what happened to Piscaethces, though, I'm inclined to say "not likely."

[Arcanist]

Vecna accrued a ton of personal power, performed a lot of rituals and of course, carved his name across the world (figuratively). Even then, he was a pretty weak power until he stole some of Iuz's divinity.

Actually there are many conflicting tales of Vecna's divinity . Some say that it was a gift from the Serpent, others say that he was simply born with the Divine Spark. Personally? My favorite is that during the age of his Empire he encouraged the worship of him from the citizens until it eventually became the norm, when the rest of the world refused to acknowledge him he simply forced the High Priest of several prominent churches to acknowledge him as a God and after a few centuries of worship and through death he attained Godhood.

When Vecna took Iuz's Divinity (absorbed him into him) his power was said to have doubled his already impressive divine might. After being ejected from Sigil in his scheme to rewrite reality Iuz was regurgitated by Vecns with A Large portion of his Divine power gone. Thus Vecna ascended from the ranks of Demigod to Lesser Deity.

If memory serves, when Vecna absorbed Iuz's power, the Lady of Pain was hesitate towards fighting him.

[Talderas]

Actually they don't, necessarily (Manual of the Planes p.46). Spells that use the Transitive Planes only function when cast in places that are coexistent with or coterminous with that Transitive Plane.

That would mean spells like Shadow Evocation simply cannot function anywhere other than the Material planes or Shadow plane since those spells directly contact the Shadow Plane to to manifest their effects. I'm not sure I particularly like this since the illusion school is already punished during planar quests in multiple subschools just based on the nature of the creatures you encounter. This just makes another subschool of Illusion useless in a planar game.

[Answerer]

No, that's not true: Illusion (Shadow) spells are in this sense equivalent to Conjuration (Summoning) spells, but for shadow-stuff rather than elemental-stuff or alignment-stuff. You can call upon those materials even when not coterminous to its source.

It's stuff like blink or ethereal jaunt (which involves stepping across the thin boundary between Material and Ethereal Planes) that are affected. When not coterminous, more powerful/permanent effects (e.g. plane shift) are necessary.

[afroakuma]

That would mean spells like Shadow Evocation simply cannot function anywhere other than the Material planes or Shadow plane since those spells directly contact the Shadow Plane to to manifest their effects. I'm not sure I particularly like this since the illusion school is already punished during planar quests in multiple subschools just based on the nature of the creatures you encounter. This just makes another subschool of Illusion useless in a planar game.

I'd probably provide for some sort of portable block of shadowstuff to serve as a spell focus for ShaCon/ShaEv, though, but that's just me.

[Arcanist]

A few questions.

What is the true origin of the Lady of pain? I heard that she was the daughter of a greater deity or merely a cosmic construct set to enforce neutrality. But I have a hard time believing this.

Who is the Serpent? I've heard many good arguments citing that he may or may not be Asmodeus.

Once upon a time the Netherese were traveling the planes, however after a few horrible expeditions into the Demiplane of Imprisonment they stopped. Many reports cite that the "survivors" were mutated (into what?) Or killed by a mysterious entity (Thurzidun?).

What are your thoughts on these?

[Eldan]

You'll never get an answer on the Lady of Pain. At least not an official one. She was written as a mystery, and she has to remain one.

[Xervous]

Which gods' followers are typically more active // populous in the prime material planes?

[afroakuma]

A few questions.

What is the true origin of the Lady of pain? I heard that she was the daughter of a greater deity or merely a cosmic construct set to enforce neutrality. But I have a hard time believing this.

*looks back at the ocean of dismembered berks who rattled their bone-boxes about the dark of the Lady*

Ehehehe. Ehehehehehe.

Well let's see here; there are a great, great many theories about that. Some believe she is a member of an obscure group known as the Ancient Brethren; other sources report her variously as a demon, an archdevil or a daughter of Poseidon.

One interesting theory involves the myths of the ancient Serpents of Law; that besides Jazirian and Ahriman, a third serpent existed representing neutrality, and when the circle was sundered, the wounded third serpent wrapped itself around the Spire to recover. This one has gained a bit of popularity due to the Rule of Threes, but the eternal flaws in that myth remain.

What is ultimately known of Her Serenity is that she is at least as old as Sigil and likely older; there has never been a time when the city existed that she did not. Some would just call her an overdeity like Ao and be done with it, but the ultimate truth will ever be a mystery.


Who is the Serpent? I've heard many good arguments citing that he may or may not be Asmodeus.

The Serpent, according to Vecna, is an ancient entity that embodies all magic, everywhere. This entity "speaks" to Vecna, who learns from it dark secrets of sorcery few could even begin to conceive of. The Serpent, who is also known by the name "Mok'slyk," is suggested to be a member of an Ancient Brethren, kin to the Lady of Pain and/or possibly Asmodeus. It may, of course, be nothing more than the fitful stirring's of Vecna's twisted mind.


Once upon a time the Netherese were traveling the planes, however after a few horrible expeditions into the Demiplane of Imprisonment they stopped. Many reports cite that the "survivors" were mutated (into what?) Or killed by a mysterious entity (Thurzidun?).


Can you get me the citation on this? I'm mining the two conventional timelines I have on hand for this and can't seem to turn it up. I know they went to the Demiplane of Nightmares and mutated there, but the source I have for their journey to the Demiplane of Imprisonment doesn't suggest any mutations - just horrible, horrible death.

[afroakuma]

Which gods' followers are typically more active // populous in the prime material planes?

Depends on the world; consult your local campaign setting. :smallwink:

[Chilingsworth]

Seriously, 10 XP? Where did you get that figure from?

BOVD. Pg 33, under "Souls as Power."

[afroakuma]

Yeah, someone else mentioned it. Don't know how I overlooked it in the table of contents, as that's the book I went for immediately.

[Arcanist]

Can you get me the citation on this? I'm mining the two conventional timelines I have on hand for this and can't seem to turn it up. I know they went to the Demiplane of Nightmares and mutated there, but the source I have for their journey to the Demiplane of Imprisonment doesn't suggest any mutations - just horrible, horrible death.

Ah you're right. They ventured into the Demiplane of Imprisonment and died horribly. What would you say killed them?

[afroakuma]

Ah you're right. They ventured into the Demiplane of Imprisonment and died horribly. What would you say killed them?

The wards, starvation, madness, or most likely Tharizdun himself. (If you were trying to obliquely ask what's inside, it's Tharizdun).

[Coidzor]

Can you get me the citation on this? I'm mining the two conventional timelines I have on hand for this and can't seem to turn it up. I know they went to the Demiplane of Nightmares and mutated there, but the source I have for their journey to the Demiplane of Imprisonment doesn't suggest any mutations - just horrible, horrible death.

What is the Demiplane of Nightmares and did they mutate into anything in particular or more like they had thumbs start growing in their brains or lost the ability to breath because their lungs turned into spiders and suffocated to death?

[afroakuma]

What is the Demiplane of Nightmares

Pretty much what it says on the tin. Horrible place. May have formed from contact between the Region of Dreams and the Negative Energy Plane; who knows, though.


did they mutate into anything in particular or more like they had thumbs start growing in their brains or lost the ability to breath because their lungs turned into spiders and suffocated to death?

Oh yes. Many, many, many types of horrible and bizarre beings. Unlike the natives, though, they couldn't reproduce naturally, so they eventually began staging incursions back into Faerun to procure children. These occurrences are reflected in Faerunian urban legends of the Night Parade.

[Coidzor]

Has there ever been an official take on, say, Alternate Material Planes or tangential(?) planes that are like the Prime Material Plane but missing or greatly reduced in the influence of one of the Inner Planes or dominated by the influence of one of the Inner Planes to almost the exclusion of the others? Have you ever done a personal spin on such or seen interesting homebrew on the subject?

Like say, a plane with Earth, Air, and water as well as Positive and Negative energy but no Fire or a plane where all of the elements are present but it's sort of metaphysically closer to the plane of fire so everything's really warm and flame-themed without actively being a hellscape or sort of similar to how the current incarnation of Athas is all dry and barren but not actually devoid of life.

[afroakuma]

Has there ever been an official take on, say, Alternate Material Planes or tangential(?) planes that are like the Prime Material Plane but missing or greatly reduced in the influence of one of the Inner Planes or dominated by the influence of one of the Inner Planes to almost the exclusion of the others? Have you ever done a personal spin on such or seen interesting homebrew on the subject?

Like say, a plane with Earth, Air, and water as well as Positive and Negative energy but no Fire or a plane where all of the elements are present but it's sort of metaphysically closer to the plane of fire so everything's really warm and flame-themed without actively being a hellscape or sort of similar to how the current incarnation of Athas is all dry and barren but not actually devoid of life.

Im getting too sleepy to cover this one tonight; I'll take a shorter or easier question before I go though

[erikun]

Speculative Planes

Semi-Elemental Planes
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Clay
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Crystals
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Frost
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Fumes
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Obsidian
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Pumice
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Silt
• Semi-Elemental Plane of Sparks
Could you provide more information about these semi-elemental planes, or where I could find more information about them? This is the first time that I've heard of semi-elemental planes.

[afroakuma]

Could you provide more information about these semi-elemental planes, or where I could find more information about them? This is the first time that I've heard of semi-elemental planes.

Absolutely. You can find the original theory hereabouts (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/quasi.html).

In brief: the Semi-Elemental Planes are to the Para-Elemental Planes what the Quasi-Elemental Planes are to the Elemental Planes. That wasn't brief at all, really. :smalltongue:

Ice made positive yields Crystals beyond only frozen water; on the negative side, it collapses into Frost, a dark, fragile and killing cold embodied as an endless blizzard.

Magma yields crumbling Pumice, a desolate grey realm of abrasive and fragile rock sponge; on the Positive side, it is Obsidian, a hot, glassy realm that could easily pass for a layer of Hell or the Abyss.

Ooze provides Clay on the positive side, a realm containing disturbing vistas and little else. Its counterpart, Silt, is an endless pit of misery.

Smoke gone negative results in Fumes, one of the most unpleasant places in the multiverse; its caustic, toxic and noxious vapors crawl through every part of you if left to do so. The flipside, Sparks, is like Radiance only more aggressive. Like being in the heart of a massive fireworks display, and just as dangerous.

[Mystra]

Why is it that the corpses of gods seem to end up, inevitably, on the Astral Plane?

This is a mystery.

First off, the Astral Plane is not a plane. It's ''something else''. It should not exist, and sort of does not exist as there is just about nothing there. But there is no word for ''non-plane'', so everyone just says it's a plane.

Next, gods are not meant to ''die''. As gods are the greatest powers of the multiverse, then they should exist forever. But gods do die. So where does the corpse of an impossible being that is impossibly killed go? The Astral should not exist non plane.

But the 'why' is a mystery.

[willpell]

Okay, so, we have:

One thing that arguably falls under 'shadow creatures' (I don't know if it's just a statted-out use of the template) but probably deserves explicit mention: the Shadow Dragon from Monsters of Faerun.


Their belief is mistaken. The original adventure featuring the Far Realm made exactly this point: that persons of sufficient power, foresight and knowledge were wrong. It's a Lovecraftian notion: the mortal mind cannot reasonably contend with what lies beyond the great rift. Presuming to is dangerous arrogance, and electing to seek out a place beyond the natural order of things is idiocy on either side of the veil.

Bluuur...ths is one of the cases where I disagree with Lovecraft. The man had a genius way with words, but he was also a neurotic coward; I for one do not believe that all human minds are as fragile as his apparently was, nor that it's terribly fair to enforce that level of frailty on the entire world with cosmic powers, when there aren't equally significant cosmic powers that enforce, say, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's unquenchable belief in the human spirit, or Nikola Tesla's determined inventive genius. (Anyone who agrees with me on this point, feel free to check out the Whiteleaf campaign setting in my sig, as it is built according to my preferences.)



Semi- and Quasi-elemental planes


The Mapping the Infinite site which describes all this...is it canonical or a fan work? Are there published sources for any of these? (I could believe there's a published source for one or more, and then fans completed the set.)


First off, the Astral Plane is not a plane. It's ''something else''. It should not exist, and sort of does not exist as there is just about nothing there. But there is no word for ''non-plane'', so everyone just says it's a plane.

Next, gods are not meant to ''die''. As gods are the greatest powers of the multiverse, then they should exist forever. But gods do die. So where does the corpse of an impossible being that is impossibly killed go? The Astral should not exist non plane.

I love this.

[afroakuma]

One thing that arguably falls under 'shadow creatures' (I don't know if it's just a statted-out use of the template) but probably deserves explicit mention: the Shadow Dragon from Monsters of Faerun.

Not from the Shadow Plane. Does have ties with the plane, though. Whatever.


Bluuur...ths is one of the cases where I disagree with Lovecraft.

Not relevant. The Far Realm does cause minds to crack - pretty much anyone will go insane within 24 hours and they'll never be 100% right in the head again. Fairness is irrelevant - the Far Realms aren't the Elemental Plane of Crazy, to be balanced out by counterparts for more pleasant mental states; they're inchoate antireality, massively segregated from the multiverse for some very good reasons. If you're just going to turn this into an opinion piece, I'll let you know right now that I don't care.


The Mapping the Infinite site which describes all this...is it canonical or a fan work? Are there published sources for any of these? (I could believe there's a published source for one or more, and then fans completed the set.)

Anything listed as speculative or theoretical is just that. The Quasi-Elemental Planes are not speculative; they are fully canonical, all eight of them, and have their own denizens, to boot.

[willpell]

If you're just going to turn this into an opinion piece, I'll let you know right now that I don't care.

Fair enough; I said my piece, I'm satisfied.


The Quasi-Elemental Planes are not speculative; they are fully canonical, all eight of them, and have their own denizens, to boot.

Where are these described originally?

[afroakuma]

Fair enough; I said my piece, I'm satisfied.

Please refrain from bringing more opinions in on what's supposed to be question-and-answer. I'm finding it disruptive.


Where are these described originally?

Originally? AD&D's Manual of the Planes. Later, Planescape materials.

[silverwolfer]

Would you consider the far realm to be the anti thesis to the main wheel/ crystal sphere's in the same way anti matter is to regular matter ala sci fi?

[afroakuma]

No, since they don't go boom (and since I would not recommend creating an engine powered in any way on Far Realm fuel).

[silverwolfer]

:*( no Cthulhu engine

[Kane0]

Aside from the Lady of Pain, what is stopping Sigil from being thrown into Civil War or a battlefield for the Blood War (or any other Planar conflict for that matter)?

[Chilingsworth]

Aside from the Lady of Pain, what is stopping Sigil from being thrown into Civil War or a battlefield for the Blood War (or any other Planar conflict for that matter)?

You mean the Lady isn't enough of an explination on her own? :smallconfused:

[willpell]

You mean the Lady isn't enough of an explination on her own? :smallconfused:

Depends. Is she capable of paying attention to everything that happens in Sigil all at the same instant, and dealing with all those situations without ever being distracted or thwarted by the need to act in multiple theaters at once?

[Eldan]

Apart from the Lady? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Pretty much everyone on the Planes wants to control Sigil. He who controls the City, controls the multiverse, and all that.

The Lady either can't pay attention to everything in Sigil all the time, or she doesn't quite care about every transgression. Ever so often, someone gets away with something. There's still cultists of Aoskar, her personal arch-enemy, around, after all.

There have been some spill-overs from the blood war into Sigil. There's entire districts that are wastelands with roaming monsters and leftover arcane weaponry and supplies. Good looting, if a blood is sharp enough

There has also been more than one civil war, though she usually stops them after a time. The Upheaval is probably the most famous one before the Faction War, and she started that one.

See, since everyone wants to have Sigil, but the powerful players can't go there personally, it's full of mortal philosophers and immortal agents. Used to be there were about as many factions as people in Sigil. That went a bit too far, so the Lady decreed that people now had a forthnight to organize themselves into exactly 15 factions, or she'd wipe them all out. Cue massive civil war, some factions merging, some going extinct.

[willpell]

There's still cultists of Aoskar, her personal arch-enemy, around, after all.

Wait a minute....Aoskar? Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

[Chilingsworth]

Wait a minute....Aoskar? Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwlCzYzjYls)

[Larkas]

Wait a minute....Aoskar? Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

IIRC, overdeities only care about their single Crystal Sphere.

[Eldan]

Wait a minute....Aoskar? Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Aoskar is very clearly dead. There's faction buildings on top of him now.

[afroakuma]

Aside from the Lady of Pain, what is stopping Sigil from being thrown into Civil War or a battlefield for the Blood War (or any other Planar conflict for that matter)?

Sigil's had civil wars before; they had to escalate quite a bit to annoy her, though. Frankly, Cagers and factions would also have something to say about a war trying to make its way into Sigil - for all that they're a disjointed bunch, few factions would let someone else's philosophy gain absolute rule over the City of Doors, and many of the City's inhabitants are freaks, outcasts, refugees, exiles and other dispossessed. The kind of people who can set aside their differences and band together if some outsider dares to cause trouble, then go right back to fighting one another once the danger has passed.

That said...


Depends. Is she capable of paying attention to everything that happens in Sigil all at the same instant, and dealing with all those situations without ever being distracted or thwarted by the need to act in multiple theaters at once?

Yes. Only question is what will she bother with?

[Arcanist]

What would be the best method, in your opinion to take over sigil? I understand this is asking a lot, accounting for the lady, but assuming you found a way to distract her, how would you go about doing this? ...also how would you go about distracting her? :smallbiggrin:

[Sgt. Cookie]

Aside from the dead, which plane is the most inhabited by Prime Material natives?

[afroakuma]

What would be the best method, in your opinion to take over sigil? I understand this is asking a lot, accounting for the lady, but assuming you found a way to distract her, how would you go about doing this? ...also how would you go about distracting her? :smallbiggrin:

Nnnnno. It's not possible to distract the Lady to such an extent that she can't maze you or kill you while paying attention to something else.

The only way to "take over" Sigil is to "take over" part of its day-to-day functions that the Lady would ignore (that is to say, bureaucratic rule rather than absolute rule). The Factions ran everything in the city, more or less, while the Lady floated around not caring; at least, not until they started causing havoc. There are bodies (such as the Hall of Speakers) that make "laws" for Sigil, and other groups to enforce those laws; the Lady ignores all of that. So, if somehow you could get into the power structure in that fashion, you could govern the City of Doors.

There is absolutely no way to wrest control from the Lady, however.

[afroakuma]

Aside from the dead, which plane is the most inhabited by Prime Material natives?

The Ethereal Plane's got a lot of Material residents who like to make their homes on the other side of the veil - various creatures, a good many spellcasters, that sort of thing.

Of the Inner Planes, the Plane of Air is the most hospitable to Prime beings.

Sigil's not a "plane," per se, but it does boast the greatest concentration of Primes in the Outer Planes. Of the rest, the Outlands would likely have the largest number.

[Chilingsworth]

Opposite question, then: Which plane has the fewest Primes living on it?

I know both the abyss and the Nine Hells have significant numbers of merchants (in some of their varrious cities) and cultists (Doesn't Asmodeus even use cultists as gaurdians of his copy of the Pact Primeval?) So, I'm guessing its niether of those.

[Eldan]

Nnnnno. It's not possible to distract the Lady to such an extent that she can't maze you or kill you while paying attention to something else.

The only way to "take over" Sigil is to "take over" part of its day-to-day functions that the Lady would ignore (that is to say, bureaucratic rule rather than absolute rule). The Factions ran everything in the city, more or less, while the Lady floated around not caring; at least, not until they started causing havoc. There are bodies (such as the Hall of Speakers) that make "laws" for Sigil, and other groups to enforce those laws; the Lady ignores all of that. So, if somehow you could get into the power structure in that fashion, you could govern the City of Doors.

There is absolutely no way to wrest control from the Lady, however.

Well, there is Harbinger House...

[afroakuma]

Well, there is Harbinger House...

Troublemaker. :smallyuk:


Nothing can be done to prevent this; in Sigil, the Lady’s will is absolute.

In any resolution to that adventure, the Lady's will wins out; further, I expect that as part of the "version update" after Vecna's little bout of fun and games, she installed further wards against anything like the House.

[Answerer]

What is Harbinger House?

[silverwolfer]

What sort of high level creatures would live in Gond's plane of wonderhome

[Eldan]

What is Harbinger House?

A building in Sigil, and an adventure of the same name. Anything more would be a serious spoiler.


Said building has several special properties. It has tons of doors that can not be opened in any way, except with a special item. It's rooms don't seem to be physically connected at all and they all have different magical and planar properties. The connections are not even remotely logical, either, and the house is quite likely larger on the inside.

The interesting part, however, and what makes the building most interesting, is that the Lady can apparently not perceive what happens inside it. It was actually part of several simultaneous plots to take over Sigil, in said adventure.



Troublemaker. :smallyuk:

I did not even mention the Sigil spell :smalltongue:

[erikun]

Opposite question, then: Which plane has the fewest Primes living on it?

I know both the abyss and the Nine Hells have significant numbers of merchants (in some of their varrious cities) and cultists (Doesn't Asmodeus even use cultists as gaurdians of his copy of the Pact Primeval?) So, I'm guessing its niether of those.
The Negative Energy Plane or the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Vacuum are probably two of the worst places to be. Nevermind the fact that the plane are extremely hostile and with literally no place to find food or shelter - that's rather normal for inner planes. The biggest problem is that you are very, very noticable on either one by some very, very nasty inhabitants.

Vacuum would probably be less populated, by nature of undead being able to walk around the Negative Energy Plane (although I'm not sure if they count as "living" on it). I am curious to see if there is a more official answer, though.

[123456789blaaa]

How are abberation related to the far realm? If they come from there than why don't they have the outsider type?