Help with a strong gestalt

[winter92]

Hello,
I'm a relatively inexperienced 3.5 player (and new to the forums) looking to build a powerful gestalt for a 2 player campaign. My DM is quite generous outside of the game with skills and health, but in-game he throws quite challenging encounters at us and is not at all shy about player death.

I'm looking at building a strong gestalt without using anything gamebreaking or questionably legal. I'll be starting as a twelfth level character with significant wealth, and I have access to everything except LoM, BoVD, or Eberron. We're permitted to prestige on both sides of the Gestalt at once.

My current idea is as follows:

I'm currently looking at Druid 5/MoMF 10/??? 5//??? 5/Warshaper 5//??? 10. This would let me go with something like Ironmaw (Fiend Folio) at 12th level, and provide strong combat abilities without blowing class levels on them. I'm not sure what to do with the remaining levels, perhaps something like Crusader or a barbarian dip for health and Wild Shape-usable combat skills.

I'm also wondering about mixing in a bunch of some other caster for spell power, or Binder levels because vestiges can enhance AC and all kinds of other things while I'm wild-shaped.
[/SPOILER]

That said, I'm also very open to whatever interesting gestalt ideas people have!

[Randomguy]

Don't put the MoMF levels on the druid side: Caster levels are more valuable. Put them on the other side of the gestalt.

Druid is generally made weaker by prestige classes except for Planar Shepard and a few others.

Try something like: Druid 20//XX 5/MoMF 10/warshaper 5.

For the XX: If your DM requires you to meet the requirements of MoMF on that side of the gestalt, then go Wildshape Ranger. Otherwise, put some dips and stuff here. A level of barbarian for spirit lion totem for pounce, for example, and a monk level or 2 for wisdom to AC, and some binder levels if you want.

[HunterOfJello]

Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Druid 4//Sorcerer 4/Geomancer 10/ ??? 6

Take Dynamic Priest at 1st level and dump all stats except for Charisma. Use Divine Metamagic Persist to the greatest extent possible. Everything you ever do is now based on charisma. Have fun.

~

Other method.

Druid 20//Swordsage 10/MoMF 10

Use maneuvers while wildshaped and only resort to spells when absolutely necessary.

~

[herrhauptmann]

Almost any gestalt is improved with factotum.
Cloistered Cleric/radiant servant/sacred exorcist//factotum5 or10
Fill out factotum side with human paragon or something. Maybe half elf then human or elf paragon
Start using nightsticks and DMM, every inspiration you use for turning gives what, 3+wis? Even without a dozen sticks, you should have enough for every buff you could conceivably want.
Sorry it wasn't druid suggestions, I'm not good with druids.

[dspeyer]

Druid prcs can go well in gestalt.

Druid 5 / Contemplative 6 / sacred exorcist 1 / more full casting prcs... / swordsage 5 / momf 10 / war blade 5

You lose animal companion and class features, but you gain many forms and domains.

[dantiesilva]

Druid 12/Cleric 3/Divine inquisitor x// Contemplative1

Gets you 4 domains of the bat for 12th level, you can DMM persist And you have all the greatness of a druid. What more can you ask for.

[Darth Stabber]

If you are focusing wildshape you might be interested in totemist. Extra natural weapons that don't go away when you wildshape, and almost all of of it's abilities are passive, leaving your actions for druidy stuff.

[DMVerdandi]

If you are focusing wildshape you might be interested in totemist. Extra natural weapons that don't go away when you wildshape, and almost all of of it's abilities are passive, leaving your actions for druidy stuff.

Seconded.
Druid 20//Totemist 20
Would kick some ass. Even more if you use an Illumian to change your Casting stat to constitution. Doing so gives you most hit points,Gives you the most essentia, and allows for some decent SAD.

Moreover, vow of poverty could be used and the Soul-melds could replace some magic items altogether.

[Darth Stabber]

Seconded.
Druid 20//Totemist 20
Would kick some ass. Even more if you use an Illumian to change your Casting stat to constitution. Doing so gives you most hit points,Gives you the most essentia, and allows for some decent SAD.

Moreover, vow of poverty could be used and the Soul-melds could replace some magic items altogether.

While I agree with your sentiments, some factual/conceptual errors need correcting.

1)illumian doesn't change your casting stat to con, just changes your bonus spells to con, which is neat, it gets really convoluted if you use more than one wildshape form over the course of the day, and is certainly not SAD. It can net you a couple more spells, but save dcs and highest castable spell level is still determined by wisdom for druid.

2)no incarnum class gets bonus essentia from a high con score. Con determines how many soulmelds can be shaped and save dcs for totemist melds, but essentia is class + maybe race + whatever you get from feats.

3)VoP is still not as good as items in this scenario, but it is as close as it is ever going to get. For those items to actually be better, it takes a bit of work and splat diving, so the reason to consider is ease not power. That being said, it is so much easier that I would consider it a default.

[Jack_Simth]

Do you know what the other character is doing? It would really help to coordinate.

[Darth Stabber]

If you want a build somewhat mapped out:

Pixie druid20//la4/totemist6/swordsage2/saint2/barbarian1/warshaper4/???1

Lvl1: sacred vow
flaw: vow of poverty
flaw: spell focus conjuration
lvl3: augment summoning
lvl6: natural spells
lvl9: abberation wildshape
lvl12: multiattack
lvl15: ??? (Probably extra rage, martial study, martial stance, an incarnum feat, or a metamagic)
lvl18: ??? (Probably martial study, martial stance, an incarnum feat, or metamagic)

I don't have the BoED in my hands, so I didn't include the bonus exalted feats, just make sure you grab exalted wildshape, since there are a lot of good benefits from that feat.


Finding the right point to take swordsage is the tricky part, you can't use monk to get wis to ac (druids have to be part neutral, vop requires good, monk requires lawful), but you can get 2x wisdom to ac with saint. Barbarian is there for you to grab pounce for all your forms, and you may as well grab whirling frenzy. Add in a 1lvl dip to finish out, and you are sitting pretty.

[Jack_Simth]

Finding the right point to take swordsage is the tricky part, you can't use monk to get wis to ac (druids have to be part neutral, vop requires good, monk requires lawful), but you can get 2x wisdom to ac with saint. Barbarian is there for you to grab pounce for all your forms, and you may as well grab whirling frenzy. Add in a 1lvl dip to finish out, and you are sitting pretty.You could also use Ninja - no alignment restrictions, Wis to AC at level 1, , and there's no chance of the DM doing a funny reading that says "Oh, you have to have armour for this to work" like there is with Swordsage. Granted, Swordsage is more useful in general (diamond mind gets you the option to replace a save with a Concentration check, there's a stance that gives you a few sneak attack dice... which goes really well with wildshape). As for the 20th level dip? I'd suggest more Swordsage (or maybe Warblade) for a few extra stances & maneuvers.

[JaronK]

You could also use Ninja - no alignment restrictions, Wis to AC at level 1, , and there's no chance of the DM doing a funny reading that says "Oh, you have to have armour for this to work" like there is with Swordsage.

Yeah, but tons of DMs seem to think Ninja invisibility breaks when you attack, which definitely hurts.

JaronK

[WinWin]

13 levels of Duskblade would go well on a multiattack monstrosity. Not the most powerful, but fairly efficient, which may be key if you go the Arcane Strike route.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, but tons of DMs seem to think Ninja invisibility breaks when you attack, which definitely hurts.

JaronK
Darth Stabber's build - the one I was addressing - renders that moot via Pixie.

[Darth Stabber]

Darth Stabber's build - the one I was addressing - renders that moot via Pixie.

That's part of the reason it's included.

Massive stats (-2str,+8dex,+6int,+4wis,+6cha), small size, decent slas, always invisible, free vicious magic arrows, good types (fey), beefy SR(15+hd), bonuses to all perception skills, +1na, free dodge and weapon finesse, and 60' fly (good). Something for everyone.

Pixie is my go to for gestalt, unless I am going str based melee. In a campaign I ran a while back one of the characters was a pixie beguiler//incarnate, and she was insane (arcane disciple{healing} seemed an odd choice, but it worked). If it was vulnerable to mind effecting, it was not a threat.

Druid as a wisdom caster is only getting a +4 to cast stat, instead of the +6 arcanists get, but that's enough, and being in your native form isn't that bad with massive dex and built in finesse.

[winter92]

Thanks very much for the help with this! I've talked to my fellow player and he's going Warblade//??? so I'm now looking much harder at casters. That said, I've put aside the Druid//Totemist thing for my next game, and Darth Stabber's build is particularly intriguing (though I'm not sure I could get away with playing a pixie). I didn't even know totemist was a thing, and it looks like a beautiful blend with Warshaper for natural attack goodness.

Right now I'm hunting for lots of casting and some strength in either survival or swift murder. So far that's looking like either:

Warblade 5/UrPriest 4/MysticTheurge 6/ ??? 5// Wizard 7/ Void Disciple 13
(the MT gets me full divine and arcane casting while unlocking Void Suppression goodness, the warblade is easily replaceable and exists for health and fort saves)

or
Warblade 5/UrPriest10/??? 5// Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 10/ Initiate of the 7 Veils 7
(Provides ultra-intense abjurations to go with buffing off the UrPriest. Ideally I'd be defending my combat partner intensely while I use Veils to disable some primary damage sources like ranged spells or breath weapons).

Again, thanks! I now have an awesome druid/totemist/momf thing to bust out in a future game!

Edit: Woah, working in two levels of Abjurant Champion looks absolutely ridiculous! I'll happily pass up the top two levels of Master Specialist for free Extend Spell and Swift Abjuration on most of my casting.

[Fouredged Sword]

I may suggest half orc druid 20 (shape shifer ACF) 20 // half orc paragon 3 / barbarian 1 (whirling frenzy and pounce ACFs) 1 / warshaper 4(you qualify at this level) / warhulk 10 (you have a large form, getting around the loss of skills by turning medium when no in combat.) / orc paragon 2

At 12 you can turn into the forest avenger, giving +12 str, and another +8 for warhulk and +4 for warshaper. You base strength should be 20 (16+2 half-orc+2 half orc paragon). This gives you 44 strength for +17 to hit and to damage with both your slams. Grow horns for 1+1/2 strength as a main. Get improved unarmed strike for iteratives outside your natural weapons. Two rages will push you up to 48 strength for boss fights.

Get greatcleave. I know, but you hit three squares with every swing for massive damage. You number of attacks can explode into 3 extra swings per attack if you kill everything in your attack zone.

You only get stronger and hit more area with each swing, eventually hitting everything in your reach each time you attack. Nothing will survive melee range. If they are out of range, throw rocks, or turn back into a orc and cast druid ranged attack spells.

[Rubik]

Right now I'm hunting for lots of casting and some strength in either survival or swift murder. So far that's looking like either:

If you want the ultimate in utility with a good dose of casting (but without the complexity-headache a wizard would net you with their spellbooks), might I suggest a warforged shaper psion 5/constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) 9/anarchic initiate 1/ghostbreaker 5//factotum 8/chameleon 10/totemist or swordsage 2

Get into constructor early via the Primary Contact feat, from Cityscape, and either retrain or Psychic Reformation it out after you gain another skill rank next level. Ghostbreaker is from Hyperconscious (a 5 level, anti-undead, full BAB, full manifester level PrC); yes, it's 3rd party, but it's written by Bruce Cordell, who authored the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's good stuff.

This is an amazingly versatile build, and quite powerful depending on how hard you like to think outside the box. It can deal with virtually anything, so long as you're not being thrown up against super-optimized T.O. builds.

[Waker]

As a general rule that I follow, the smaller the group, the more you should generalize. Specializing is something you should do when you are in a larger group. The other thing to consider is the benefits of action economy.

Gnome Druid 20/Sorcerer 10/War Weaver 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5 would give you plenty of spellcasting options, an animal companion to provide an extra body. The spontaneous SNA, wildshaping and the ability to cast nearly any spell from evocation or conjuration through the shadow substitution ability means you can adapt to many different combat situations. Lastly the War Weaver lets you cast several buffs all at once, allowing you to instantly buff the other character as well as yourself and your companion. For the Sorcerer side, pick Transmutation and Illusion almost exclusively when you gain new spells.
It will also help to list out beforehand all your favorite animal forms, summons and spells that you can copy using Illusions.

Edit: Almost forgot to mention.
Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone)- PrC that transforms Illusion spells into a large body of Evocation or Conjuration spells.
War Weaver (Heroes of Battle)- PrC devoted to buffing. Can cast buffs spells in advance and activate up to 5 buff spells simultaneously as a Move action.

[Immabozo]

I have a disgustingly amazing suggestion.

Be an Illuman, choose the spell word to make your casting stat str

On one side:
Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 2/Nature's Warrior 5

On the other:
Sorc 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 8

Use the necklace from MIC that gives a +4 to your effective HD for the purposes of HD. Run around as a War Troll with Wilding armor, so it is melded into your form and no arcane spell failure. 31 str gives extra spells per day of 3/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1

If you wanted cheese, you could take the form of a dusk giant, take the chicken flooded flaw, for unlimited chickens to eat and an extra feat and have str in the low 50s.

You'll be a great caster and very, very capable in combat. It is all cannon, no glass. You can then go on to take warshaper for immune to crits, =5 feet reach, and +4 str, +4con. which will again, up your spells per day.

EDIT: AND then there is AMAZING buffs for druids that hugely up STR, like Bite of the Werebear. Improved Wildshape is another good buff, +2 str all wildshape!

[Darth Stabber]

Thanks very much for the help with this! I've talked to my fellow player and he's going Warblade//??? so I'm now looking much harder at casters. That said, I've put aside the Druid//Totemist thing for my next game, and Darth Stabber's build is particularly intriguing (though I'm not sure I could get away with playing a pixie). I didn't even know totemist was a thing, and it looks like a beautiful blend with Warshaper for natural attack goodness.

Right now I'm hunting for lots of casting and some strength in either survival or swift murder. So far that's looking like either:

Warblade 5/UrPriest 4/MysticTheurge 6/ ??? 5// Wizard 7/ Void Disciple 13
(the MT gets me full divine and arcane casting while unlocking Void Suppression goodness, the warblade is easily replaceable and exists for health and fort saves)

or
Warblade 5/UrPriest10/??? 5// Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 10/ Initiate of the 7 Veils 7
(Provides ultra-intense abjurations to go with buffing off the UrPriest. Ideally I'd be defending my combat partner intensely while I use Veils to disable some primary damage sources like ranged spells or breath weapons).

Again, thanks! I now have an awesome druid/totemist/momf thing to bust out in a future game!

Edit: Woah, working in two levels of Abjurant Champion looks absolutely ridiculous! I'll happily pass up the top two levels of Master Specialist for free Extend Spell and Swift Abjuration on most of my casting.

There is rule/guideline in gestalt that you cannot take prestige classes on both sides at the same time. If your GM is not enforcing it, go ahead. There is usually an even bigger prohibition against theurge classes, but again if unenforced have fun. As far as what to do with levels as a primary caster: wizard//factotum, you really aren't getting enough from warblade to make it worth it, just try to stick factotum out to 8th (cunning surge is insane).
Abjurer3/master specialist10/iot7fv 7//factotum8/urpriest10/factotum2, though I would consider going into iot7fv asap, and returning to master specialist (or ignoring the rest of it and going into archmage).

[Immabozo]

There is rule/guideline in gestalt that you cannot take prestige classes on both sides at the same time. ...There is usually an even bigger prohibition against theurge classes

where can I read this? I just read the Gestalt rules in the Unearthed Arcana and read no such restrictions.

[Darth Stabber]

where can I read this? I just read the Gestalt rules in the Unearthed Arcana and read no such restrictions.

Page 73, top of the second column.


"A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations -such as arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight- should be prohibited if you are using gestalt, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what's already a high-powered variant"

[Immabozo]

ah, you are very right. But I see no rule against theurge-type PrC

[Darth Stabber]

ah, you are very right. But I see no rule against theurge-type PrC

Read it again, this time with emphasis:


"A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations -such as arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight- should be prohibited if you are using gestalt, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what's already a high-powered variant"

Though I will give you that it doesn't 100% explicitly rule it verboten (they insist on using the word should), that seems to be a very strong indication that you aren't supposed to be doing that. Now if you were playing warblade16//wizard3/archivist3/mystic theurge10, I as a gm would allow it, but that would be decided on a very strict case by case basis (and if you think you are going to use precocious apprentice to qualify, you are very sadly mistaken).

[Immabozo]

hmm, very true. I just read that wrong

[Vaz]

I can make a Charisma Caster with higher Charisma and just Diplomance without wasting Spells per Day on Charm etc, while spending more on being God as a Gestalt. Bring in Cancer Mage instead for Str based (Festering Anger) Spell Slot Cheese.

[Chilingsworth]

I can make a Charisma Caster with higher Charisma and just Diplomance without wasting Spells per Day on Charm etc, while spending more on being God as a Gestalt. Bring in Cancer Mage instead for Str based (Festering Anger) Spell Slot Cheese.

If you read the OP, he already said he can't use the BOVD.

As for builds:

Wizard 6/Geometer 3/Fatespinner 4/IoSV 7//Beguiler 20 Would be a fun build: full 20/20 wizard/beguiler casting, cheap spellscribing, ability to increase you save dcs abit, or mess alittle with other's saving throws, a 1/day reroll, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil goodness, almost completely Int SAD

(Geometer, Fatespinner, and IoSV are all in Complete Arcane, Beguiler is in PHB2.)

If you can get away with a theurge class on at least one side of the build, maybe play around with a wizard/druid arcane heirophant (PrC from Races of the Wild) with either cleric or beguiler thrown in?

[Darth Stabber]

If you read the OP, he already said he can't use the BOVD.

As for builds:

Wizard 6/Geometer 3/Fatespinner 4/IoSV 7//Beguiler 20 Would be a fun build: full 20/20 wizard/beguiler casting, cheap spellscribing, ability to increase you save dcs abit, or mess alittle with other's saving throws, a 1/day reroll, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil goodness, almost completely Int SAD

(Geometer, Fatespinner, and IoSV are all in Complete Arcane, Beguiler is in PHB2.)

If you can get away with a theurge class on at least one side of the build, maybe play around with a wizard/druid arcane heirophant (PrC from Races of the Wild) with either cleric or beguiler thrown in?

I would take your build, and replace the beguiler20 with factotum20 (dungeonscape written in part by the giant himself). Wizard//beguiler is going to have far more spells than actions by a long shot. Factotum adds a touch of extra spells, with solid class features, including int to nearly everything. If you have an extra feat or three, font of inspiration is a decent choice, making the action economy even more your pet.

[Chilingsworth]

I would take your build, and replace the beguiler20 with factotum20 (dungeonscape written in part by the giant himself). Wizard//beguiler is going to have far more spells than actions by a long shot. Factotum adds a touch of extra spells, with solid class features, including int to nearly everything. If you have an extra feat or three, font of inspiration is a decent choice, making the action economy even more your pet.

Hmm, I'm sure, I'm just not particularly familiar with Dungeonscape (also didn't know Rich had a hand in writing it. I'll definately have to give it a look, now!)

[Immabozo]

You could still go Illumian with the power symbols making str your spellcasting stat for number of spells per day, going wizard 12 on one side, Druid 5, MoMF 2, Natures Warrior 5 on the other and still run around with a 31 str, as I suggested earlier, before buffs and items, and taking at least a few levels of Warshaper to get +4 str, +4 con and, on top of more HP, stronger melee, getting more spells per day. Improved Wildshape (or whatever the spells name, from SC) making that another +2 for as long as your shift. Lots of spells! And then, when you run out, you are a very capable melee character.