D&D Monster in the Modern World [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Malimar

2012-12-29, 10:25 PM

The Tarrasque or a pit fiend or balor or whatever could take just about any small-arms punishment a modern military could dish out, but we've got nukes, and most monsters lack any explicit resistance to gamma, neutron, or ionizing radiation.

I figure the main qualification for really doing well in the modern world is possession of an otherworldly high intellect, to anticipate and eliminate any threats before they even notice the monster's presence. Also, subtlety, and maybe the ability to dominate minions.

So I nominate the noble mind flayer elder brain. 28 int, dominate monster, mass suggestion, and astral projection at will (also other, less interesting, SLAs), 20th-level sorcerer spellcasting or psion manifesting. And it can produce its own arbitrarily-large army of regular mind flayers, any one of which has the spellcasting or manifesting to wipe the floor with most anything humans are likely to throw at it. All of which means nobody will ever get a chance to get into a physical fight with it, but if you do, it's got DR and regeneration that make it physically even tougher than a balor or a pit fiend.

"But what about that first thing you said, about the nukes?", you ask. To which I say: who's going to nuke it, when the leaders of all the world's nuclear nations are already dominated? Who's even going to know it's there, with key members of every relevant intelligence agency, police force, and news outlet dominated?

Kaeso

2012-12-29, 10:26 PM

Piggy Knowles

2012-12-29, 10:26 PM

Doppelgangers would be pretty tough to deal with.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-29, 10:27 PM

Definitely Mind Flayers, especially if they manage to create a viral video that turns everyone who watches it into their mindless thrall.

Morcleon

2012-12-29, 10:34 PM

Or absolutely anything with the Ghost template?

Yeah. Unbodied would probably be worse, as they get psion manifesting already.

Dragons would be rather scary, but they would be easily taken down by a few helicopters. Dragons have a max speed of some 80 mph, according to the SRD, while most attack helicopters have cruise speeds in the mid-100s.

The tarrasque would be removed by luring it with a giant stack of meat into a large body of water, where it would sink and drown and stay there until someone is stupid enough to pull it back out.

Crake

2012-12-30, 01:31 AM

The best dragons also get alternate form, so the evil red dragon would infact be the CEO of a multinational corporation

edit: apparently red dragons don't get alternate form, but they get sorcerer casting anyway, so that works too

Arbane

2012-12-30, 03:44 AM

What is a particular D&D monster that would be really scary if given access to modern weaponry, knowledge from the internet, and all the stuff our world has to offer.

One Shadow loose in a large city. GAME OVER.

A Rust Monster. (Stop laughing!) It's not dangerous to humans directly, but pretty much every street in any industrialized country is an all-it-can-eat buffet to it. If it can survive long enough to reproduce, they could do more damage than Hurricane Katrina.

A Succubus. High intelligence, ridiculous social skills, mind-control powers, shapeshifting, teleportation, and PURE EVIL. How long before it sets off World War Three just for the fun of it?

Erik Vale

2012-12-30, 04:09 AM

A deity. Their technically monsters.

TuggyNE

2012-12-30, 05:45 AM

SilverLeaf167

2012-12-30, 05:56 AM

A few suggestions so far may need to be modified slightly depending on whether the modern world has the Astral Plane available (or Ethereal, for that matter): Ghosts, for example, are always at least partly ethereal, so that might mess them up; similarly, teleporting only works with the Astral.

However, incorporeal creatures in general don't need anything special and would be anywhere from difficult (holy water, explosions) to impossible (if holy water here doesn't work, or if explosions don't do force damage) to deal with. So a shadow would, indeed, be pretty terrifying.
I personally think that our "holy" water wouldn't work, simply because nobody can actually cast Bless Water.
Explosions are questionable, but since force damage in D&D is more like "pure energy" (like in Magic Missile), I think most explosions would instead be a mixture of fire and perhaps sonic damage (I think sonic covers shockwaves) which wouldn't be much use against incorporeals.

Fyermind

2012-12-30, 06:18 AM

Dynamite is listed as dealing bludgeoning damage in the dmg if that helps.

Anything with the mineral template could be pretty bad. I know it wouldn't be able to bounce high powered shots but small arms fire might not be able to hurt it. More importantly it can pass through earth and stone with it's burrow ability as an earth elemental iirc. That would make it ideal for an assassin.

My vote for most dangerous goes for unbodied from Expanded Psionics Handbook. It is incorporeal, has telepath powers, telekinesis for basic things at will, and the ability to look like whatever it wants to. That is very, very powerful.

Ashtagon

2012-12-30, 06:31 AM

Hollywood explosions are fire damage.

Realistic explosions? It varies. Grenades are typically slashing damage, from all the shrapnel damage, as would most explosions that deal in significant fragmentation material. However, concussion grenades, and demolition explosives that rely on shock-waves, would be bludgeoning damage.

Actual incendiary warheads would of course be fire damage.

There isn't really anything within modern technology that would do sonic or force damage (imho).

Rakmakallan

2012-12-30, 06:50 AM

Probably none of them. D&D monsters are dependent on D&D natural laws for their functions and abilities. I'd imagine them being very flabbergasted when they entered our world only to find nothing functions any more. Tarrasque and dragons collapsing under their own weight due to square-cube law, magic and psionics disappearing, balor swords extinguished, inability to change form, incorporeal creatures becoming tangible and so on. My bet would be on illithids or kobolds, if they managed to hide long enough to become proficient with technology, or something beastly in its own right, (no golems, remember that magic does not work), such as a non-magical le shay or aboleth, better yet an anaxim, if we were to assume it is a purely mechanical construct with AI.

Morcleon

2012-12-30, 10:25 AM

Rogue Shadows

2012-12-30, 10:51 AM

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Thus, the supposed impossibility of most d&d creatures could simply be explained with a liberal use of quantum probability. :smallbiggrin:

Also, "that doesn't work on Earth" is a dull excuse.

For my own part, I vote dragons. They've got the right combination of sheer power, intelligence, spellcasting, and most importantly of all, "would make a cool villain in the real world," to ruin everyone's day. God forbid one of them who has wish as a spell gets access to the Internet and learns about the infinite wish loop...or sarrukhs, as I'm pretty sure a dragon completely qualifies for Pun Pun-dom, if I'm not much mistaken.

A single dragon could probably take over the planet if he played his cards right, and dragons have very good INT and WIS, so they always play their cards right.

As for the "nuke 'em" option, that...is less effective then we'd like it to be in real life:

"Contingency: if I die, teleport without error to this random location I've chosen far from wherever I do anything, so no one will have any reason to prepare for my arrival here."

The contingency activates the moment the dragon dies from the nuke but before his body is destroyed (if it even would be destroyed)

"Contingency: if I teleport without error to this location, cast true resurrection on me."

The dragon's back up and running and now he knows to watch out for nukes. This isn't even tailor-made to watch out for nukes, either; it's just as sensible a use of contingency as if a bunch of adventurers have showed up in his lair and killed him the old fashioned way.

Morcleon

2012-12-30, 11:32 AM

Also, "that doesn't work on Earth" is a dull excuse.

For my own part, I vote dragons. They've got the right combination of sheer power, intelligence, spellcasting, and most importantly of all, "would make a cool villain in the real world," to ruin everyone's day. God forbid one of them who has wish as a spell gets access to the Internet and learns about the infinite wish loop...or sarrukhs, as I'm pretty sure a dragon completely qualifies for Pun Pun-dom, if I'm not much mistaken.

A single dragon could probably take over the planet if he played his cards right, and dragons have very good INT and WIS, so they always play their cards right.

As for the "nuke 'em" option, that...is less effective then we'd like it to be in real life:

"Contingency: if I die, teleport without error to this random location I've chosen far from wherever I do anything, so no one will have any reason to prepare for my arrival here."

The contingency activates the moment the dragon dies from the nuke but before his body is destroyed (if it even would be destroyed)

"Contingency: if I teleport without error to this location, cast true resurrection on me."

The dragon's back up and running and now he knows to watch out for nukes. This isn't even tailor-made to watch out for nukes, either; it's just as sensible a use of contingency as if a bunch of adventurers have showed up in his lair and killed him the old fashioned way.

Actually, both teleport w/o error (now greater teleport) and true resurrection are too high of a spell level for contingency, which limits things to 6th and under.

But for all it's power, a dragon is still killable with long range sniping from fighters and naval ships. It's blindsense is only a few hundred feet, as is it's range of vision. And if it just teleports, we can tag it with a radio tag. :smallsmile:

Ravens_cry

2012-12-30, 11:41 AM

Dragons, particularly the kind that can polymorph into humanoids.
Modern wealth may not have the tink and gleam that gold and jewels have, but opportunities abound for a smart, charismatic creature. They could control the world!
While it is true that something incorporeal could easily wipe us all out, that's . . . not actually scary. They are so invincible that there is no point at actually *doing* anything.

Rogue Shadows

2012-12-30, 11:56 AM

But for all it's power, a dragon is still killable with long range sniping from fighters and naval ships. It's blindsense is only a few hundred feet, as is it's range of vision. And if it just teleports, we can tag it with a radio tag. :smallsmile:

Depending on the dragon, the jet fighter might not actually be able to deal enough damage to the dragon before the dragon realizes what's what and teleports away...and that leaves aside a few problems.

Notably, dragons are smart. Even white dragons, the stupidest of the true dragons, are as smart as an average human adult by their own adulthood (and remember: the monsters in the MM are specifically the weakest examples of their kind and are typically built with 10s and 11s, not the elite array). A dragon finding itself in the middle of a city surrounded by skyscrapers and millions more humans than it thought could exist in one place at one time and airplanes and helicopters and the like, isn't going to go on a rampage, it's going to immediately fly off/teleport away and go into hiding, and then try to figure out what's going on, and it's going to decide to do this within a matter of minutes, long before anyone can show up to radio tag it. Tracking via radar also isn't going to be much help because each of the Chromatics that want to go into hiding can easily avoid radar without even meaning to, simply by hiding the way they normally would (blues burrow, blacks swim, greens and reds hide in forests and mountains (and volcanoes for reds), and whites go to the tundra and find a nice glacier to hole up in).

Cowboy_ninja

2012-12-31, 04:16 PM

Dragons, flippin' dragons. They can fly, are far more intelligent than the brightest minds we have, are huge, have nasty claws and tails, can breathe fire/lightning/acid/frost and can cast spells. On top of that, I think even our best artillery will have a thought time penetrating their scaly hides, and even if they are capable of taking a dragon down, a dragon is more than intelligent enough to fly away from a fight it can't win.

For story reasons I'm trying to stay away from dragons.

A group of dragons cast a powerful curse/spell that shunted all the "undesirable" races to our world. The only ones left in their world are dragons/Draconians, and everything else is here.

Anything with the mineral template could be pretty bad....

Where can i find that template?

Kobold Artificers.

Simply brilliant.

My group in particular is haunted by Kobold traps/encounters from past dungeons.

Probably none of them. D&D monsters are dependent on D&D natural laws for their functions and abilities. I'd imagine them being very flabbergasted when they entered our world only to find nothing functions any more. Tarrasque and dragons collapsing under their own weight due to square-cube law, magic and psionics disappearing, balor swords extinguished, inability to change form, incorporeal creatures becoming tangible and so on. My bet would be on illithids or kobolds, if they managed to hide long enough to become proficient with technology, or something beastly in its own right, (no golems, remember that magic does not work), such as a non-magical le shay or aboleth, better yet an anaxim, if we were to assume it is a purely mechanical construct with AI.

I've thought of most of this:When the D&D monsters arrived so too did their laws of magic, certain laws of physics, as well as the other planes (astral, shadow, etc.).

I'll work out which laws precede/replace other laws as they come up. I also think it would make for some interesting changes to some of the monsters we know and love. I'm wondering how outsiders would be effected. I'm thinking they would be shunted back to their own plane, and attempts to get back to the material plane would land them here.

I really like the kobolds using our tech idea. I've also got some RP ideas between us and the D&D humans.

...Modern wealth may not have the tink and gleam that gold and jewels have, but opportunities abound for a smart, charismatic creature. They could control the world! ...

Our setting is 8 years after the monsters/races landed in our world. The DM before me (I'm picking up where he left off) established that most major tech (internet, cell phones, major communications) has been snuffed out. So the as interesting as the nymph, or doppelganger charming their way to ruling the world is kind of out.

To sum up our campaign setting, its D&D pathfinder with access to pathfinder modern (guns, grenades, grit, etc.), and the land masses/continents/history of this setting is our land masses/continents/history.

Eldan

2012-12-31, 04:23 PM

It's an epic creature. I still maintain it's what happens if you tell a giant fanboy with no restraints to stat up his dream version of an elf.

Also, yes, dragons. I don't think it would have to teleport away. It could just take human form.

In fact, I'd say anything both intelligent and able to take a humanoid form would do really well. Rakshasa would end up very interesting. On average more charismatic than the most charismatic human, highly intelligent, shapeshifters and sorcerers. Much of what dragons would do, minus some of the unkillability.

Unusual Muse

2012-12-31, 04:49 PM

Definitely Mind Flayers, especially if they manage to create a viral video that turns everyone who watches it into their mindless thrall.

Too late! :smallsmile:

Phelix-Mu

2012-12-31, 05:29 PM

Anything with mind-affecting or fear effects would be quite formidable, since all of our tech does little to protect us from the weaknesses of our own minds. So I will second the succubus/mind flayer/unbodied telepath votes.

Personally, I've always wanted to unleash angry ents/man-eating treants/etc on humanity. Sadly, most of the carnivorous plant creatures aren't particularly tree-like. On the other hand, monsters that look like harmless plants would be formidable. Big surprise feature. I'm thinking yellow-musk creeper...nice early edition vintage right there. A Little Shop of Horrors feel, if you would.

Finally, evil lycanthropes/vampires/monster with contagious template/spawn ability are all going to cause mass havoc.

Beelzebub1111

2012-12-31, 07:23 PM

Depends on what you mean by fear.

I'd be freaking the hell out if a Destrachan bust through a wall. They simply END materials. They can break up weapons by yelling at them. imagine being in a city street, cops all around guns pointed at this thing that is taring up the street and cars with its voice, it turns and blasts them with a cone of energy that breaks all the metal on them, guns falling apart, their cars shattering, even the buckles on their uniforms. it runs away, confused down a manhole into the sewers...plotting.

A nightwalker would be another great one. a shadowy giant doing whatever the HELL it wants because who's going to stop it? It can summon dread wraiths! It can crush anything just as much as pick it up. It can kill people by pointing at them. Paralyze you with fear by looking at you. What's worse? it can hide. It is a 20ft tall giant with a +18 to hide. Excuse me while I go wet myself.

A Pit Fiend simply can not be killed on our world. Radiation or no the only things that can hurt it are Good-Aligned Silver weapons. Sure you could tear it to bits, blow it up with artillery, Drop a nuke on it, doesn't matter. It'll still get back up again.

A purple worm. Because Tremors.

Agent 451

2012-12-31, 07:31 PM

Where can i find that template?

I think this is what you are looking for. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)

Rubik

2012-12-31, 07:55 PM

This (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20) is both somewhat apt and hilarious.

Darthteej

2013-01-01, 12:39 AM

To anyone who says dragons, I have two words:

Fighter Jets.

Gigas Breaker

2013-01-01, 12:44 AM

What about the Wightocalypse?

The Glyphstone

2013-01-01, 12:49 AM

To anyone who says dragons, I have two words:

Fighter Jets.

Two counter-words:

What Age?

Great Wyrms can get up to 19th level sorcerer spellcasting. If you can't mess up as many fighter jets as you want with 9th-level spontaneous casting from both the Wizard and Cleric lists, let alone being a giant energy-breathing flying armored lizard, something is very, very wrong.

Morcleon

2013-01-01, 01:13 AM

Two counter-words:

What Age?

Great Wyrms can get up to 19th level sorcerer spellcasting. If you can't mess up as many fighter jets as you want with 9th-level spontaneous casting from both the Wizard and Cleric lists, let alone being a giant energy-breathing flying armored lizard, something is very, very wrong.

One counter-counter word:

Range.

Unless the dragon optimizes to a rather high level (or runs away), then the sheer range advantage will kill it. Most air-to-air missiles have effective ranges measured in miles (or km!), which far outdistances pretty much anything in D&D short of teleport, divinations, and similar

Darthteej

2013-01-01, 01:17 AM

The great thing about GitP is that I don't have to type out long posts. I imply what I mean and someone who agrees explains it for me.

I'm like a forum bard :smallamused:

Though I would also like to point out the factor of speed. Mach 2 vs 200 ft/6 seconds natch.

Rogue Shadows

2013-01-01, 10:15 AM

One counter-counter word:

Range.

I don't think a single missile actually deals enough damage to kill a dragon of sufficient age, especially a Red which would be immune to a not insignificant amount of the damage, and also have some DR to protect it, nevermind any buffs it might have on, etc.

(And I doubt the military would go for Macross Missile Massacre right off the bat; they'd start with just one)

Remember that the main gun of an M1A1 Abrams main battle tank only deals something like 5d6+10 damage, if I remember my d20 Modern right. Which sounds pathetic, sure, 'til you remember that most people only have between 1-4 hit points, and most trained soldiers in a given army (i.e., 1st-level warriors) only somewhere between 1-10, assuming the 10 HP represents a warrior with a 14 CON and max hit point roll. So an M1A1 actually at bare minimum is enough to render even a tough, trained soldier with 10 HP at -6 hit points at minimum (probably represents being caught in the backblast or the shell missing but the shrapnel from whatever it impacted, or whatever a "glancing blow" would count as from an M1A1), and something like -15 (i.e., very dead splatter) on average.

So I actually imagine that an anti-air missile wouldn't actually deal all that much more damage (say, twice that much: 10d6+20, at least some of which is Fire and therefore negated against a Red, but which is still absolutely absurd amounts of damage for something that isn't magical), and the Red certainly has the hit points to take it.

Mind, it'd probably hurt like a mother, but then the dragon gets its heal on. It's hit by another missile, heals again, and then GTFO's via teleport (or etherealness, or what have you) until it can figure out what's happening and how to counter.

-------------------

EDIT
Actually, now that I think about it, looking at an X-Wing from the Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook probably isn't a bad place to start (if not necessarily end) for a jet fighter's missiles.

A proton torpedo from an X-Wing deals 9d10x2 damage (untyped). That's 90 damage on average, 180 damage maximum. That...sounds about right for a missile: it's on average nearly four times as destructive as the average result of an M1A1 Abrams' main gun hitting something. The Red can actually survive several maximum-damage hits. How many of these do jets carry? I think it's something like 4-6? And they're not going to all be launched at once, not at first. So, yeah, the Red takes a few, can heal each time, but can't see where the attacks are coming from, realizes its outclassed, and flees, which it is much better at doing than the jet fighter thanks to teleportation and etherealness (and being able to hide in a volcano).

Certified

2013-01-01, 11:02 AM

Based on the notes provided, Dragons purging the world, I think with rare exception we should rule out extraplaner creatures since they wouldn't be in the world for the most part, so no Devils, Demons, or other Outsiders, this may also rule our ghosts, and creatures with the shadow subtype.

Depending on the level of havoc one wants there are some great choices already mentioned:

Sticker Shock:
Rust Monsters, just a single one or a nest in a major city is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

Ooze, any given ooze can mean a bad day for anyone. They tend to have a fair number of immunities and wreck just about anything they touch. This may work much like the rust monster for higher CRs.

Kaiju Theater, any of the plus size beauties is an instant classic. Be it dinosaur, or purple worm. Again, we go urban for maximum destruction.

Undead, pick a flavor anything that has a create spawn ability. Here you can go small, suburban towns, remote areas, or go big city. Depending on how you want to play this one there can even be some self regulation, with a Litch or Vampire taming the hordes as it were. (The Bronx is now dominion of Count Orlok and his zombie hordes.)

Adventurers, if we're talking everyone except Dragons and their relatives that means you also get all your hearty bands of adventures. What happens the first time they see garbage truck? If you're from this world and hear the phrase "What foul sorcery is this?!" Run! Of course this may latter turn into an asset for you mortal normal folk. As seen in Beastmaster 2.

Ballooning Costs:
Mind Flayers, this is your long term planner, assuming they survive the initial arrival because there's no way people don't assume Ebil when looking at Lovecraftian horrors.

Goblins, as seem to have a taste for explosives. (This replaces Kobalds since they may not have been transported due to Draconian relations)

Giants, while it may not be the most obvious of choices these bad boys may easily take control of small areas. Assuming they pop into a remote enough area they can bunker down as they see escalating force from the home team. With their intelligence they also become cable of using our weapons against us. This may start off as simple tactics, using a bus as a tower shield and lobbing tanks but it can get worse, if they have time to adapt.

Science Officer

2013-01-01, 11:23 AM

I say dragons. Never mind exterminating magical spells or breath of fire, or whatever weapons humans might retaliate with. Dragons are intelligent, long-lived, and covet gold above all else. There is great potential for them in the modern world. Take a note from Shadowrun.

Lofwyr is a Great Western Dragon, and a prince of Tir Tairngire. His scaly, winged form may be more than 20 metres long, he might breathe fire and possess a dragon's tremendous natural magical talent, but that's not what makes him powerful. He is the solitary share-holder and owner of Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industry Co., and making him the single wealthiest individual on the planet. S-K is a AAA-prime mega-corporation, with more resources, personnel, and facilities than most governments.

In D&D, a dragon's lair might be a lonely mountain or deserted dungeon, its treasure lying about in gold coins and trinkets, but in the modern world a dragon's lair is an imposing skyscraper and it's treasures stocks, bonds, patents, and futures.

awa

2013-01-01, 11:27 AM

Certified

2013-01-01, 11:44 AM

actually i would say most giants would not last long. most are fairly dumb and clumsy and not so tough as to be able to withstand high powered rifles. human weapons are designed for use by humans they would need humans to modify weapons for them.

also very few are big enough to use a bus as a shield or throw a tank and those that are happen to be just the right size to be killed by a jet

This is why for giants to be a long term threat they would need to dropped into a more remote area. If w're talking Pathfinder only Hill Giants have below average Intelligence, with the majority being of average intelligence, with storm and cloud giants being above average. Though Storm Giants are listed as Chaotic Good and may not join in with the other giants and their fun. Additionally, the majority of giants are listed as Large size so firearms are a trigger guard away from being popped off by some meat rookers.

J-H

2013-01-01, 12:29 PM

This is why for giants to be a long term threat they would need to dropped into a more remote area. If w're talking Pathfinder only Hill Giants have below average Intelligence, with the majority being of average intelligence, with storm and cloud giants being above average. Though Storm Giants are listed as Chaotic Good and may not join in with the other giants and their fun. Additionally, the majority of giants are listed as Large size so firearms are a trigger guard away from being popped off by some meat rookers.

That depends on the country. Damage dice aside, a competent rifleman can hit a giant's eye (assuming 2" diameter eye) at 50 yards, and I don't think the back of their retina has a natural armor bonus that'll stop a 2800fps .223 bullet from turning their brain into mush.

In addition to the illithid, dragons, and undead.

-A plague of Vargouilles would be bad.
-Trolls require fire or acid to keep down. Not easy for even light infantry units to handle.... even a fragmentation (the most common type) grenade doesn't count as doing fire damage.
-Basilisks could do some major damage in an urban area until flanked and killed from behind. Without magic, we don't have a way to un-petrify people, either.

Not too worried about cockatrices, stirges, and other flying creatures with a "normal" reproduction rate... too easy to bring down with a shotgun. The dire animals, similarly, can be hunted down like their normal equivalents over time. Just bring bigger guns or more of them.

Ashtagon

2013-01-01, 12:57 PM

Remember that the main gun of an M1A1 Abrams main battle tank only deals something like 5d6+10 damage, if I remember my d20 Modern right. Which sounds pathetic, sure, 'til you remember that most people only have between 1-4 hit points, and most trained soldiers in a given army (i.e., 1st-level warriors) only somewhere between 1-10, assuming the 10 HP represents a warrior with a 14 CON and max hit point roll. ...

d20 Modern tends to assume that a 1st level character is a high school senior, 2nd level is a university undergraduate or new employee in a low-skill job, and that most adults settled in a job early in their career are typically 3rd level.

That's still not going to survive a typical MBT main gun, but it is worth noting that d20 Modern nameless NPCs are typically higher level than D&D nameless NPCs. It does, however, mean that single hits with a gun typically get decided on the basis of the massive damage Fortitude save rather than on hit point damage.

'Able' Xanthis

2013-01-01, 02:00 PM

Aboliths have a genetic memory that reaches back to the creation of their race, in fluff. That has to be insanely powerful in it's own right. It may take them a few years to adapt but even our best Subs couldn't touch them, they can go too deep.

Devil's would actually love our society, as it is we live in a mostly lawful neutral society that leans slightly towards evil. The opposite could be true as our Lawful society changes so much they could just see it as an abomination of all they wish to create, and distort.

Goblin-kind populates so fast that it would take napalm runs to fully destroy.

Dryads and other nature spirits are a mixed bag. A Nymph may take a consort and empower the person, so peace is possible, but then we have hurt the earth in so many ways.

ShadowFireLance

2013-01-01, 02:06 PM

One counter-counter word:

Range.

Unless the dragon optimizes to a rather high level (or runs away), then the sheer range advantage will kill it. Most air-to-air missiles have effective ranges measured in miles (or km!), which far outdistances pretty much anything in D&D short of teleport, divinations, and similar

Uh...No.
Now see, If I was a Great Wyrm Red, I would already be the top force in the world, my Breath Weapon would be able to take down Large BattleShips with one blast, My Claws would be able to take down Pure Titanium, ANd I would have a loyal army of Half-Dragons.
Besides, You have to have a Impact to ignite the Missiles, I catch the Missle, Oh what son? (Immune to fire Damage, Which is mostly what Missiles Are...)
What now?

I say dragons. Never mind exterminating magical spells or breath of fire, or whatever weapons humans might retaliate with. Dragons are intelligent, long-lived, and covet gold above all else. There is great potential for them in the modern world. Take a note from Shadowrun.

Lofwyr is a Great Western Dragon, and a prince of Tir Tairngire. His scaly, winged form may be more than 20 metres long, he might breathe fire and possess a dragon's tremendous natural magical talent, but that's not what makes him powerful. He is the solitary share-holder and owner of Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industry Co., and making him the single wealthiest individual on the planet. S-K is a AAA-prime mega-corporation, with more resources, personnel, and facilities than most governments.

In D&D, a dragon's lair might be a lonely mountain or deserted dungeon, its treasure lying about in gold coins and trinkets, but in the modern world a dragon's lair is an imposing skyscraper and it's treasures stocks, bonds, patents, and futures.

Amen dude.

J-H

2013-01-01, 02:35 PM

Besides, You have to have a Impact to ignite the Missiles, I catch the Missle, Oh what son? (Immune to fire Damage, Which is mostly what Missiles Are...)
What now?
Wrong and wrong. Most AAMs and SAMs have a proximity fuse and explode when close enough to the target aircraft, and they do their damage primarily through concussion and shrapnel causing physical damage to the wings/engines/control surfaces of the aircraft, not by melting it.

Big gun.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/GAU-8_meets_VW_Type_1.jpg

The 30mm (~1.2" caliber) autocannon on an A-10 Warthog fires depleted uranium (extremely dense) armor-piercing slugs that are able to eat their way through 10"+ of modern armor plating. Since a very strong guy with a non-magical spear can punch through dragon's scales (DR 15), the A-10 rounds would definitely beat the natural DR of a dragon... and the A-10 fires over 60 rounds per second. A one to two second burst should kill a dragon.

Beelzebub1111

2013-01-01, 03:46 PM

-Trolls require fire or acid to keep down. Not easy for even light infantry units to handle.... even a fragmentation (the most common type) grenade doesn't count as doing fire damage.
The military does have flamethrowers.

A drider holed up in an abandoned building, a goonies style gang of kids being dared to spend the nite inside, and the kids are picked off one by one in the darkness.

A Yrthak would wreck so much havoc. just destroying EVERYTHING.

A team of four Elder Elementals would just be an unstoppable storm of destruction and terror.

'Able' Xanthis

2013-01-01, 04:29 PM

Trolls aren't that hard to kill. Enough Molotov Cocktails and the thing just dies. The real danger is the things that are using mechanics we can't bypass as easily.

Blink dogs and displacer beasts would be a nightmare, as they are both able to do something that we can't accurately predict in a feasible way. Blink dog literally side-step space and displacer beasts are foil most conventional methods of fighting the standard panther, an animal that they closely resemble.

As I have mentioned before the Aboliths would be bad too. They are able to wait out the initial knee jerk by just being somewhere that we can't go, and their mucus is a freaking nightmare waiting to happen. They could stealth their way to out of the way coastal communities and gain huge followings using the combination of psionic and arcane abilities they can gain to create cults like the Deep Ones do in Lovecraftian Mythos.

The real threat would be the Adventurers. I'm talking about the wizards who have literally plans for plans failing plans that were planed to fail, and the group of friends that s/he empowers and cares for because they were with him/her from the beginning. These guys could, and most likely have, fight entire countries without breaking a sweat, and I'm talking a sub-optimal adventuring party with a level 20 fighter and such. Granted that fighter is possibly the scariest thing to an infantryman who finds that their guns don't harm this thing that moves faster than eyes can reliably track and carries a sheild of some unknown metal that he can BLOCK FIFTY-CAL SNIPER ROUNDS with once every six seconds. Yeah, when taken into that kind of look I shudder at the build I have created, and I'm not that good at optimizing.

Morcleon

2013-01-01, 06:16 PM

Also, any adventurer with a Starmantle Cloak. We have no magic weapons. :smallamused:

Eldan

2013-01-01, 06:20 PM

We have area damage, though. Grenades should cover that, or flamethrowers.

TuggyNE

2013-01-01, 06:30 PM

Ooze, any given ooze can mean a bad day for anyone. They tend to have a fair number of immunities and wreck just about anything they touch. This may work much like the rust monster for higher CRs.

Ehhh, oozes would just split up a couple times after getting hit by bullets, and then croak. They're not immune to damage.

Blink dogs and displacer beasts would be a nightmare, as they are both able to do something that we can't accurately predict in a feasible way. Blink dog literally side-step space and displacer beasts are foil most conventional methods of fighting the standard panther, an animal that they closely resemble.

The real threat would be the Adventurers. I'm talking about the wizards who have literally plans for plans failing plans that were planed to fail, and the group of friends that s/he empowers and cares for because they were with him/her from the beginning. These guys could, and most likely have, fight entire countries without breaking a sweat, and I'm talking a sub-optimal adventuring party with a level 20 fighter and such. Granted that fighter is possibly the scariest thing to an infantryman who finds that their guns don't harm this thing that moves faster than eyes can reliably track and carries a sheild of some unknown metal that he can BLOCK FIFTY-CAL SNIPER ROUNDS with once every six seconds. Yeah, when taken into that kind of look I shudder at the build I have created, and I'm not that good at optimizing.

Well, I'm pretty sure LG blink dogs wouldn't be terribly interested in causing havoc. xG adventurers, either, which leaves the question mostly up to the relative populations of Good, Evil, and Neutral adventurers and whether we can negotiate for allies fast enough.

Morcleon

2013-01-01, 06:31 PM

We have area damage, though. Grenades should cover that, or flamethrowers.

And a ring of evasion and an amulet of lesser vigor? Any well equipped high-level adventurer is nigh-invincible in our world, unless you can trick them.

Nameless Ghost

2013-01-01, 07:01 PM

Certified

2013-01-01, 07:36 PM

Ehhh, oozes would just split up a couple times after getting hit by bullets, and then croak. They're not immune to damage.

It's true they lack a lot of the stopping power, at least the grey ooze doesn't. The damage with an ooze though isn't so much once people get around to fighting back, but more the property damage caused before hand. Oozes and Rust Monsters are possible of decimating infrastructure depending on where thy appear.

While we're talking about off monsters the Otyugh still makes for a great sanitation device. "Oh no, this beast is in our sewers!" "The water has never been cleaner at the filtration plant."

Certified

2013-01-01, 07:38 PM

Who says that all adventurers would be immediately hostile? (y'know, assuming that these aren't PCs :smalltongue:). If almost the entire contents of the Monster Manual are being transported, then you'd have have good-aligned factions present too. There'd undoubtedly be some kind of trade and alliances and it'd almost certainly result in somebody ending up with +1 rifles and vorpal grenades (slashing damage after all).

In my original post I was assuming more of a learning curve and collateral damage caused by adventurers being an unfamiliarity with "this strange and hostile land we find ourselves in."

mattie_p

2013-01-01, 08:11 PM

It's true they lack a lot of the stopping power, at least the grey ooze doesn't. The damage with an ooze though isn't so much once people get around to fighting back, but more the property damage caused before hand. Oozes and Rust Monsters are possible of decimating infrastructure depending on where thy appear.

While we're talking about off monsters the Otyugh still makes for a great sanitation device. "Oh no, this beast is in our sewers!" "The water has never been cleaner at the filtration plant."

It depends. "It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity." Most metals used in the modern world are neither ferrous nor precious (as in silver and gold), but alloys of a multitude of metals. Rust monsters won't get far, I think.

Waker

2013-01-01, 08:52 PM

What do I think would make an interesting and dangerous creature to introduce to Earth?
Clockwork Horrors.
They are a race of quasi-sentient robotic lifeforms that have two goals: destroy organic life and harvest all available metal. They possess a hivemind to allow for instantaneous communication, have the ability to incorporate new technology (detailed in their description in Dragon Mag where they learn inter-planetary travel from examining a Neogi Ship), are immune to many weapons (biological, gases, EMP) and so on.
Not to mention that unlike many D&D setting, we have ample metal supplies just sitting around: scrapyards, construction sites, factories etc.

It depends. "It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity." Most metals used in the modern world are neither ferrous nor precious (as in silver and gold), but alloys of a multitude of metals. Rust monsters won't get far, I think.
And of course now we have to deal with Titanium and Tungsten Carbide Horrors.

Rising Phoenix

2013-01-01, 10:33 PM

Dryads and other nature spirits are a mixed bag. A Nymph may take a consort and empower the person, so peace is possible, but then we have hurt the earth in so many ways.

They can go eco-terrrorist... not much humanity can do against extreeme weather, super plagues etc and that's after the animal hordes...

Rogue Shadows

2013-01-01, 10:51 PM

The 30mm (~1.2" caliber) autocannon on an A-10 Warthog fires depleted uranium (extremely dense) armor-piercing slugs that are able to eat their way through 10"+ of modern armor plating. Since a very strong guy with a non-magical spear can punch through dragon's scales (DR 15), the A-10 rounds would definitely beat the natural DR of a dragon... and the A-10 fires over 60 rounds per second. A one to two second burst should kill a dragon.

Isn't the Warthog a close air support craft designed to attack things on the ground?

I'm not saying it can't attack a flying dragon, mind, just that it's not designed for it, not ideal for it, and probably not the first thing the air force would send after a dragon flying around. That's far more likely to be an F-22 Raptor, or similar air superiority fighter, which is equipped with a far more modest M61A2 Vulcan cannon:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/M61_Vulcan.jpg

While capable of 6,000 rounds per minute, no fighter can carry that much ordinance to make this practical. Vehicles equipped with a Vulcan fire in bursts (in fact, they are equipped with limiters that make them only capable of firing in bursts) of usually only a few dozen rounds per minute. The ammunition for the US Navy and Air Force both is the PGU-28/B, a semi-armor piercing high explosive incendiary round.

Basically, the Vulcan is still impressive in its own right, but unlikely to splatter an elder Red. Like my guesses about missiles, outlined above, I imagine an elder Red could survive for some time against an F-22's canons and missiles...just not effectively fight back immediately. However, it has more than enough time to flee, which is where the true strengths of a dragon kick in.

In the opening minutes of it arriving, it will flee, hide via shapeshifting or somesuch, establish a lair, and then focus on infiltration and figuring stuff out. Remember that even the stupidest of dragons, the White, is still as intelligent as an average human adult when it itself reaches full adulthood. Most dragons are MENSA-level geniuses on average.

'Able' Xanthis

2013-01-01, 11:13 PM

Well, I'm pretty sure LG blink dogs wouldn't be terribly interested in causing havoc. xG adventurers, either, which leaves the question mostly up to the relative populations of Good, Evil, and Neutral adventurers and whether we can negotiate for allies fast enough.

Err, I was just using them as an example. The Adventures are going to be majorly Chaotic Neutral, it is the most used in a poll I once read which I'll try to dig up.

Just a sec guys I read somewhere that this world is to use D20 Modern rules, may have misread something here. Please tell me you guys are wrong. Only one in like every one-hundred people in D20 Modern have the Hero classes anyone else is an Ordinary.

An ordinary character has:
• The standard starting ability score package
• Random starting hit points
• No action points
• No class features
• No levels in an advanced class

They start with the following stat line; 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

This could get messy.

Rogue Shadows

2013-01-01, 11:18 PM

Only one in like every one-hundred people in D20 Modern have the Hero classes

That many? I actually would have assumed it was substantially less...

Dissonance

2013-01-01, 11:36 PM

Why is everyone discounting the cooperation between level headed folk of two worlds and skipping right on over to the fighting?

the OP stated that this would be taking place 8 years after the initial world transition. most creatures should have adapted by now, or died out. humans and other creatures would be integrated into the society. Heck I'm pretty sure at this point a few military forces would have enlisted a wizard to help with intel / strategy / planning / enchanting / and so forth. So it's not like it is a completely one sided battle. Then your forgetting that almost ALL of the adventurers are here as well. The first few years would be minor havoc and chaos as they acclimated to a whole new world, but with the amount of plane shifting shenanigans that go on in an average D&D day, this would be a cakewalk. After these various persons have been reasoned with we now have at our disposal a rather large pool of talent whose background literally includes "We fight the monsters." I could even see some of the smarter adventurers keeping these "otherworldly monster fighting techniques" secret and selling their services to the local military to remove any monster problems.

Sure it won't be all nice and perfect with roses and sunshine, but we would survive. Heck with the advent of magic and the turning of the laws of physics and such on it's head, I can see a few canny modern humans using this as a means to an end previously unattainable.

Back on topic, I can say that a kami would be absolutely devastating to our society. guardians of nature with very little to guard will guard what they have all the more fiercely, not to mention we would already be on bad if not hostile terms with them thanks to our efforts on this world. One strong kami could shut down all operations in a few hundred miles, which would account for a massive loss of resources. Or the businesses could manipulate and escalation between the kami and military forces resulting in carnage on a massive scale. leaving either the military obliterated and the kami pissed, or the kami dead and the military suffering heavy losses. Either way, it's gonna suck.

DeltaEmil

2013-01-01, 11:37 PM

The scariest monster in all of D&D that would enter our world and use our most numerous ressource are shadows.

We have 6-7 billion humans living on this world.

One shadow will turn them into 6-7 billion shadows in less than a month.

The goal of the adventurers would be to stop the shadows from turning the inhabitants of our world into shadows and then to invade D&D-world with 6-7 billion new shadows, or more precisely, to seal the gate or reverse the process that enabled the shadows to cross into our defenseless world in the first place. Once the shadows have managed to enter our world, the adventurers must sadly destroy the gate, trapping us with the myriads of shadows devouring us, because it's better for the D&D-world to survive at least, then to die together with its impotent twin of Earth.

J-H

2013-01-02, 12:03 AM

Isn't the Warthog a close air support craft designed to attack things on the ground?

I'm not saying it can't attack a flying dragon, mind, just that it's not designed for it, not ideal for it, and probably not the first thing the air force would send after a dragon flying around. That's far more likely to be an F-22 Raptor, or similar air superiority fighter, which is equipped with a far more modest M61A2 Vulcan cannon:

A dragon flying 200 ft per round is going less than 60 miles per hour, so it's no harder to hit than a moving tank, AFV, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II

Wikipedia says that A-10s usually carry a pair of Sidewinders (IR-based Air to Air missiles) for defense, so they do have the targeting & control systems necessary to engage a flying target.

Rogue Shadows

2013-01-02, 12:52 AM

A dragon flying 200 ft per round is going less than 60 miles per hour, so it's no harder to hit than a moving tank, AFV, etc.

While I acknowledge this as true, I still don't think that the Navy/Air Force's first aircraft of choice against a dragon is going to be a Warthog. It's going to be a Raptor or similar craft, which doesn't have the firepower to down an elder Red in less than about five or six rounds (not that the Navy/Air Force would have any reason to think this going in), more than enough time for the Red to decide to GTFO.

GreatWyrmGold

2013-01-02, 01:21 AM

I might be biased, but dragons are pretty much the scariest critters in D&D.

My namesake has spellcasting on par with the most powerful mages in the world, bonuses to mental attributes equal or above most peoples' ability scores, a breath weapon that can completely disable a person's muscles as well as one dealing an average of 132 damage and useable every 15 seconds on average (both affecting everything within a 70-foot cone), takes 20 points less damage from anything normal humans can throw at it, can give himself a luck bonus once a day which lasts at least 37 hours, can breathe water and swim, and has Foresight, not to mention enough power to take on two or three balors or pit fiends. Oh, and once it escapes the hypothetical attack by a fighter plane (its damage reduction pretty much lets it shrug off machine guns--not to mention conventional firearms in general, until you get to artillery-sized stuff--its fire immunity combined with DR takes some sting out of missiles, its armor class is the answer to life, the universe, and everything [which is pretty darn high], and it has over 700 HP), it can integrate itself into normal human society with ease. And that's assuming that it's a peaceful gold dragon who hasn't picked up a class level in over a millennium. And gold dragons born smart as an average genius. Even lesser dragons are darn scary, too--a hatchling white dragon is about as much a threat to a person as a black bear, despite being cat-sized, and can incapacitate a human (or several) in under a minute from its breath weapon alone. And whites are the weakest kind of dragon. A single older dragon is terrifying, but a bunch of dragons? A few thousand dragons, picked randomly from an average D@D world, probably includes at least one great wyrm dragon from each type. The world quickly becomes a contest among these dragons.
But there's no dragons? Oh well. There's a heck of a lot else.

Just cherry-picking the top-CR, non-draconic, Material Plane creatures, in the Monster Manual, we have the Tarrasque, nightcrawlers, nightwalkers, some constructs, truly horrid umber hulks, nightwings, beholders, storm giants, liches, the strongest hydras, and the leaders of various monstrous races. The Tarrasque would terrify whatever damned land it wound up in until the world found a way to trap it, because it is impossible to kill without wish and not a lot easier to incapacitate without some sort of magic, barring nuclear bombs which will keep it down for about a second and a half before it regenerates back to positive HP. Nightshades are dang scary; assuming that they didn't simply crap their pants at the sight of these things of shadow (Frightful Presence is probably deserved by a majority of higher-level monsters), their spell-like abilities alone can start plagues no one has heard of , cast globes of darkness around, make them invisible, etc. Umber hulks cause confusion; get a cluster in one place and they're likely not getting driven out without some sort of remote-operated destructive devices (which instantly makes them a lot less scary). Beholders are supergeniuses on average, can kill four people a round unless they make their save (20% chance for an average person) and incapacitate four or five more in addition to having a bite that incapacitates an average person instantly, storm giants thanfully tend towards Good but can wreak devastation with their spell-like abilities (or their massive strength--almost equal to the mightiest of dragons), liches are wizards which terrify anyone within 60 feet and can paralyze people with a touch (in addition to 11 or more levels of the power which makes wizards and their ilk Tier 1, and magic items to match), hydras are dumb but nigh immortal if you don't remove the heads and destroy the stumps (making them the least scary thing listed here), and the leaders mentioned in the MM have several class levels in addition to terrifying natural abilities.
And then there's incorporeal undead with create spawn, rust monsters, oozes (who aren't scary in a direct confrontation but are terrible on water supplies and infrastructure), outsiders and inevitables caught on the Material Plane, any of these creatures with advanced hit dice, templates, or class levels...

Let's face it, if we can't strike a deal with the adventurers, metallic dragons, storm giants, etc, quick, humanity won't last 8 years.

Vahktang

2013-01-02, 03:24 AM

Well, intelligent monsters can be bribed, not only with gold, gemstones, etc, but the even more valuable stuff: plutonium.
<evil grin>

Unintelligent characters can be treated like any other unintelligent calimity: poorly.

And more interesting monsters:
Angels? "Hey, how come everybody isn't being good? Oh, yeah? Have some of this."
Beholders? Possibly the dalek of the D & D world.
Formians. Imagine a nest someplace.
Lycanthopes. Spread of disease, etc. Fully human. Nukes won't work because they're in the general population.
Kraken. Wicked Smart. Increase the strength of a hurricane, anyone?
As a matter of fact, many of the sea critters could be big problems before they would be even noticed.
Any spawn creators would be Big Trouble.

And a lot of the monsters would end up on a SYFY movie of the week.

Eldan

2013-01-02, 08:40 AM

I'm tempted to run this as a game. Fantasy monsters taking over the modern world.

Though perhaps not with D&D rules. Shadowrun might fit nicely, or M&M.

GreatWyrmGold

2013-01-02, 10:47 AM

Well, intelligent monsters can be bribed, not only with gold, gemstones, etc, but the even more valuable stuff: plutonium.
<evil grin>
Depends on the individual. I'd bet 5 silver pieces that there'd be a red dragon or something out there who was too cruel or confused to accept any such deal.

Unintelligent characters can be treated like any other unintelligent calimity: poorly.

In theory. In practice, they're often about as vulnerable as a hurricane and perhaps as destructive.

And more interesting monsters:
Angels? "Hey, how come everybody isn't being good? Oh, yeah? Have some of this."
Beholders? Possibly the dalek of the D & D world.
Formians. Imagine a nest someplace.
Lycanthopes. Spread of disease, etc. Fully human. Nukes won't work because they're in the general population.
Kraken. Wicked Smart. Increase the strength of a hurricane, anyone?
As a matter of fact, many of the sea critters could be big problems before they would be even noticed.
Any spawn creators would be Big Trouble.

And a lot of the monsters would end up on a SYFY movie of the week.
Well, thankfully in the OP's campaign the solars and formorian queens are probably being left out. As to the rest...well, yeah.
But seriously, what's with the abbreviation? What is it? "Sifee?"

Rogue Shadows

2013-01-02, 10:51 AM

But seriously, what's with the abbreviation? What is it? "Sifee?"

Just call it the Wrestling Channel.

Ashtagon

2013-01-02, 10:52 AM

But seriously, what's with the abbreviation? What is it? "Sifee?"

Sadly, it's actually the brand name for a certain television channel.

Rogue Shadows

2013-01-02, 10:57 AM

Sadly, it's actually the brand name for a certain television channel.

I think he knows; I'm pretty sure he's referencing LittleKuriboh's Yu-Gi-Oh! Abridged

The Gilded Duke

2013-01-02, 11:07 AM

The truly scary thing I think would be Kenku. Kenku give +3 on aid other checks instead of +2. Each Kenku is 1.5x better at teamwork than any human ever. This can work with aiding other to attack, aiding other on skill checks, and even aiding other on crazy craft rolls. The Kenku don't need to take over by being scary in combat, they just need to be more useful to everyone, and more productive among themselves. Also they will take over the radio industry near instantly.

Kaeso

2013-01-02, 11:25 AM

I know I said dragons before, but I forgot the most horrifying creature that DnD has ever spawned...

...Pun-Pun :smallamused:

GreatWyrmGold

2013-01-02, 11:36 AM

I think he knows; I'm pretty sure he's referencing LittleKuriboh's Yu-Gi-Oh! Abridged
I was actually thinking of a line from Dr. Leonard Hofstadter of The Big Bang Theory. Unless I'm misremembering something.

'Able' Xanthis

2013-01-02, 11:43 AM

That many? I actually would have assumed it was substantially less...

It notes that most Heroes don't apply themselves, in other words there are about one in every Five Thousand who have the motivation to do something Great. This would change as soon as the sticky stuff hits the fan as when needs must humans reliably survive long enough to adapt.

Protection from Arrows when adapted to D20 Modern was applied to all PROJECTILES this is huge as when maximized and empowered stops the first one-hundred and fifty damage that is dealt by any ranged attack that comes at it. It's a level two spell that easily gets contingency; if this spell fails Instantly recast from X item. That is only if they get through the Wind Wall and Entropic Field. The only thing that would get though to the protection would be lucky shots and air to ground missiles, not the first thing we'd think about.

If we managed to live for eight years there was most likely a country in the other world that cast Change Alignment to Good on sleeping babies, an action I might add would make a totally Good country that would have many Good adventurers who will take it upon themselves to help the people who are staring at their weapons like they betrayed them.

That really wouldn't be abnormal to an adventurer, as in most of the campaigns I played in when I was younger a few of the guards in one village or another would always think that because they had a Cold Iron sword they could kill X monster because it's always killed Y monster. The commoners of the world just don't know what kills X or Y without doing it, from a logical stand point it's most likely because neither they nor the Adepts that help them have ranks in the right Knowledge.

It's the Chaotic Evil characters that stir the pot and Lawful Evil character who would plan.

Enchantment is hard to do on swords and shields, placing them on rifles and pistols has most likely only just started happening after eight years. We're talking about geniuses able to out think computers having to relearn how to make the wheel, it'd most likely take some time but they'd get it.

Rogue Shadows

2013-01-02, 11:50 AM

It notes that most Heroes don't apply themselves, in other words there are about one in every Five Thousand who have the motivation to do something Great. This would change as soon as the sticky stuff hits the fan as when needs must humans reliably survive long enough to adapt.

Even one in five thousand seems abnormally high...

If we managed to live for eight years there was most likely a country in the other world that cast Change Alignment to Good on sleeping babies, an action I might add would make a totally Good country that would have many Good adventurers who will take it upon themselves to help the people who are staring at their weapons like they betrayed them.

Ironically I would argue that casting change alignment on sleeping babies is an inherently Evil act, even if you're changing them to Good (maybe even especially).

Further, I'd like to point out that it's probably neutral countries that are most likely to survive the long run, as per Machiavelli's thoughts on the matter.

'Able' Xanthis

2013-01-02, 12:28 PM

Even one in five thousand seems abnormally high...

Only if you don't take into account that most Heroes are artists, designers, college teachers, and other exceptional people who never pass level six.

Ironically I would argue that casting change alignment on sleeping babies is an inherently Evil act, even if you're changing them to Good (maybe even especially).

Depends solely on the way you look at it, which could be seen in one of two ways. One, the caster is taking free will from child. Two, the caster is reenforcing the good in the child's soul, tampering not with free will but giving the child's moral compass a stronger leaning to Good. One is just mind control, while two is a behavioral aid. People will still go Evil just not as often.

Further, I'd like to point out that it's probably neutral countries that are most likely to survive the long run, as per Machiavelli's thoughts on the matter.

I wasn't making an argument on that point I was saying that Good aligned people are more helpful for helps sake. The would literally help others out just to help others out.

I would say if the Neutral countries are anything like the one I DM then they would have one heck of an advantage. The country I speak of has a Chaotic Good Sultan who has two viziers, a Lawful Good Artificer and a Lawful Evil Wizard who both work together to keep the Sultans harebrained ways from ruining the country they both love. They were called the Viziers of Sun and Moon, and this set up had been made for years and it always seemed to work. Both were so nationalistic it was a flaw for them.

The Artificer helps with technological and arcane reforms and keeps a few old contacts with adventuring companions of years ago. While he wasn't a Cleric in his own right he helped promote religion in his own way. The land they were on was rich with Planar Touchstones and he made those into attractions that one had to pay for, at the advice of the Wizard.

The Wizard actually controlled the criminal underground and was the diplomatic envoy. He'd leave the country in the hands of the Artificer to grow and bloom while he moved through social channels seeding a spy network and saying a few words at this ball or that to keep the 'barbarian outsiders' fighting one another.

THAT was one fun campaign.