[PF] Improving the Fighter (House Rules)

[Cambrian]

Was looking for ways to improve the ability of the fighter in PF with some house rules. I have no illusions of making the class competitive with tier 1/2 classes but hopefully these changes should let the class at least remain competitive with tier 3/4 classes.

The thoughts I've had so far are to:

Change skills to 4+int. effectively doubling the skills a fighter has access to. 2+ int is fine for wizards/witches since they will always have a decent Int score. For a fighter that will never have a high int 2 skills/level is crippling.

Add Acrobatics to the class skill list. Jump was rolled into acrobatics; it's ridiculous to deny a fighter access to it.

Remove the Combat Expertise Requirement for many feats. Combat Expertise is feat tax, and the 13+ int req puts an unnecessary strain on fighters (3 less points for point buy)

Add a pounce feat. Ex. Bounding Charge (req. Spring attack, Fighter Level 8+; may make a full attack on a charge)


Would these changes be enough/too-much? They would obviously improve the fighter's lot but is it enough to make a fighter appealing? Would these changes invalidate other classes (like the Ranger/Barbarian)? What are everyone's thoughts on these or other possible changes?

[Feralventas]

None of those are going to break or significantly empower the fighter more than the current options available are likely to. I'd suggest granting them Master Craftsman as a freebie at 3rd level and Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th.

A Fighter's main tools are their weapons and armor, and granting them the ability, with downtime and money, to create and customize tools for the situations they're likely to face will do far more for improving their ability to face a given challenge than a couple extra skill-points that could be gained Through these feats or spending one of their other ones on Craft Wondrous Item could essentially invalidate through simply gaining a better boost to the same skill.

That said, there's already some Archetypes that improve Fighter's skills per level, so making them 4+int as default is easily within reason, and I'd suggest considering that said archetypes be buffed to 6+int accordingly.

The combat expertise requirement demanded that fighters boost int a bit, meaning they'd Get the skill-points you're giving them if they wanted to have any of the feats from that line. Giving them the extras as class skills rather than demanding it as part of a feat-tax should be fine.

Barbarians also get a pounce as they're intended to be the mobile, hard-hitting combatant while the Fighter tends to be more aimed at the Technical fighter or Method combatant. Then again, there's a Mobile fighter archetype so clearly Paizo's not concerned with it and neither should you be. It'd probably be better than Vital Strike at least.

Hope your games go well.

[Cambrian]

None of those are going to break or significantly empower the fighter more than the current options available are likely to. I'd suggest granting them Master Craftsman as a freebie at 3rd level and Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th.

A Fighter's main tools are their weapons and armor, and granting them the ability, with downtime and money, to create and customize tools for the situations they're likely to face will do far more for improving their ability to face a given challenge than a couple extra skill-points that could be gained Through these feats or spending one of their other ones on Craft Wondrous Item could essentially invalidate through simply gaining a better boost to the same skill.
I like this idea. It would add to what the fighter does outside of adventuring which is another shortcoming of the class. Many other classes can find useful things to do with the down time in preparation for the next adventure where the fighter has little outside of what you make them RP.


That said, there's already some Archetypes that improve Fighter's skills per level, so making them 4+int as default is easily within reason, and I'd suggest considering that said archetypes be buffed to 6+int accordingly. Would definitely do just that.


The combat expertise requirement demanded that fighters boost int a bit, meaning they'd Get the skill-points you're giving them if they wanted to have any of the feats from that line. Giving them the extras as class skills rather than demanding it as part of a feat-tax should be fine.It's unfortunate since the intelligent fighter (like Roy) is an interesting twist beyond the typical stupid meatbag. But because it comes at a cost it's rarely worth doing since fighters already need high Str/Dex and Con. Unless it's high point buy (or they roll well) the fighter will likely have higher priorities and be denied those options. It makes the technical fighter aspect less viable which is strange since tripping someone well doesn't seem to demand a relatively strong int (the equivalent to what is needed to cast 3rd level spells).


Barbarians also get a pounce as they're intended to be the mobile, hard-hitting combatant while the Fighter tends to be more aimed at the Technical fighter or Method combatant. Then again, there's a Mobile fighter archetype so clearly Paizo's not concerned with it and neither should you be. It'd probably be better than Vital Strike at least. This was my main concern with the pounce idea. It seems like the barb would be the most put out by enabling the fighter in such a way. Having spring attack as a requirement was to make this an investment in a more mobile combat style.


Hope your games go well.
Thanks! I appreciate the response.

[WinWin]

The issue with the fighter class...and their beatstick variants:

The best description I have seen, succinctly states that they have plenty of horizontal development, but limited vertical development.

Other classes gain paradigm shifting abilities as they level that can significantly alter the way the game is played, wheras the Fighter is still doing the same thing they were doing at level 1, albeit more efficiently.

To make things more difficult, the fighter lacks the ability to deal with advanced challenges on the merits of their class features. Want to punch a ghost? Deal with Mongol Archers riding Pegasi? Counter a teleporting fiend that drops a blasphemy every 12 seconds? Participating in any of these challenges either requires that the other members of the party utilise their resources on the fighters behalf, or significant DM fiat in the form of magical gear, plot contrivances and/or sub-optimal monster behavior, all so the fighter player gets to feel as though they are contributing.

This is not as much of an issue if the campaign is centred around beating up goblins, orcs and their larger cousins. If you want to play a more fantastic game...you may as well add Fairy Godmother (su) and Artifact Sword to the fighters list of class features. That way, the other players don't get to complain about the unfair treasure distribution and NPC intervention stacked in the fighter's favour as they hit higher levels.

[Cambrian]

Completely agree with you WinWin. My intentions weren't to bring the fighter up to the level of the stronger classes but to hopefully give them a little more depth so they weren't limited compared to classes that fill similar roles.

The changes I offered obviously don't solve the issues of a flying enemy. I've thought of offering templates to certain classes to add a bit of vertical ability (though it would be an initial jump with no advancement) but it doesn't help someone who wants to play something less out there. Usually a fighter is taken by someone who wants to play something less fantastical so this option often fails both to meet the players wishes and the desired intention.

I honestly don't know what exactly would allow a fighter to contribute meaningfully without defying the simple martial nature of the class. It's not so bad if a character has to take a back seat for the odd combat encounter (as the Pegasus example would) but often in order to challenge other more "vertical" characters more elaborate encounters need to be created and it becomes difficult to meet everyone's interests while providing a fun challenge.

[gartius]

add perception to class skills-fighters are generally guards so they should be good at spotting things.

the following ideas are from the warblade in TOB

you also have the flexibility of weapon training. As a result you spend an hour each day to change any feat that designates a specific weapon (for example weapon focus)

uncanny dodge at lvl2, improved uncanny dodge at lvl 6