Tier 1-2 Fighter/Rogue Gestalt

[Jyton]

I hit post when I meant to hit preview, my apologies.

The (premature) original post is bellow, spoilered because, well, it's a spoiler! I'll finish this and edit it accordingly soon tomorrow!

I'm starting a new campaign in the same world with the same group that just ended their last campaign at level 20 by, essentially, beating up the evil empire and splitting it into quarters to rule by their former characters into posterity. The characters in the new campaign will be a Wizard/Archmage specializing in Conjuration barring Evocation and Illusion, a Cleric with the Illusion Domain, this Fighter/Rogue Gestalt, and a fourth yet-to-be-determined class that won't be out adventuring with the group, but will be supplying them with high-power magic items and equipment to make up for his nonattendance. I use the high WBL values, and tend to run higher power campaigns in general. In particular I do my best to throw things at the group that can challenge T1 classes.

The Gestalt will be both the skill monkey and the meat shield for the party. The goal here is to bump him up to a point where he can play with the big boys.

Notes

Note 1; This is not an attempt to "fix" the fighter, popular as that is. If anything, it's an attempt to break it, so he can compete on a Wizard's level. By level 20, he should be able to decide "NONE SHALL PASS!" and be able to back that up.

Note 2; This group has been gaming together for a long time, and we all understand that we come together to have fun and to tell a story. We play hard, I hit them hard and they hit back hard. They haven't tried to "break" the game and I don't anticipate they will now, but the changes to this class should help the Gestalt be as able to do so as the Wizard, should he choose to, hence the 30 (Yes thirty! Read on) bonus ability increases among everything else.

Here are the changes I'm considering making. I realize that giving him all of them, unaltered, could seriously complicate the class, however he's being played by my most experienced player. I'm not really concerned with how complicated it gets, mostly I want your opinions on if this is enough? Too much? Without Further ado;


BELLIGERENT SCOUNDREL

Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10

Starting Wealth
{table=head]Class|Starting Wealth|Average


Belligerent Scoundrel|5d6 x 10 gp| 175 gp[/table]

Class Skills

The Belligerent Scoundrel's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Note that this combination of the fighter and rouge skill lists is almost all of the skills, with the exclusion caster focused skills. I don't have a problem with this as he is supposed to be, after all, both the skill monkey and the fighter.

Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier


{table=head]Level|Base AttackBonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Feats|Bonus Ability Score

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +1 Increase

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +2 Increase

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feats | +1 Increase

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +1 Increase

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feat | +1 Increase

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +2 Increase

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feat | +1 Increase

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +1 Increase

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feat | +1 Increase

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +2 Increase

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feat | +1 Increase

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +1 Increase

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feat | +1 Increase

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +2 Increase

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feat | +1 Increase

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +1 Increase

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feat | +1 Increase

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +2 Increase

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Gestalt Traits |1 Bonus Feat | +1 Increase

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Gestalt Traits |2 Bonus Feats | +1 Increase[/table]

[PEACH]

Unless Gestalt traits is code for "spellcasting progression," this ain't T1 and is very unlikely T2. No amount of bonus feats or +1 to stats will change that, and I know it's not fully posted.

[TuggyNE]

It is, simultaneously, too much and not enough. It's not going to be T1/T2, as mentioned, because it doesn't have spellcasting or manifesting (or even maneuvers directly). However, the copious bonus feats and skills mean that it can switch between several different combat styles and even do things out of combat, and the ability bumps give it a fair bit of raw power, so it probably comes out as a rather overpowered T3. It won't break the campaign, but it will outshine any other mundane fairly easily. Which, in context, means it will be able to contribute but not set the pace.

Fluff-wise, though, I have no idea how on earth you could possibly justify +25 to ability score(s?).

[Jyton]

Ahhh... I posted this by mistake, "Gestalt traits" is placeholder, I guess I'm really too tired to be working on this right now, I'm sorry guys. I'll be fixing this, so check back!

Edit: I've got most of the fluff in my head, I'll write it out as I get to it, again, my apologies.

[Zman]

This is moderately overpowered Tier 3 Melee Skill Monkey. It lacks the sheer power to be Tier 2 and the power and versatility to make Tier 1 while still invalidating other classes which IMO is the worst combination.

It boils down to the Wizard will be warping reality at a whim while you are "hittin things with a sword" and "using skills".

[danzibr]

Until we see what these "gestalt traits" are I don't think this is even as strong as the warblade. That's a lot of bonus feats and ability score increases, but warblade.

[Yitzi]

As others have said: It's not tier 1-2 unless it
A. Can break the game
B. Gets a choice how to break the game. (Tier 1 makes this choice regularly, tier 2 has to make the choice when picking their build.)

Honestly...if you want a tier 1-2 fighter/rogue, go get yourself a game of Exalted and play a Solar.

[Lans]

Instead of giving it a crap load of bonus feats, break them off into different styles/paths and give a list of them.

I would do the same with the stat increase so instead of being able to get +25 to one stat, he would get something like +6 to 4 stats, or 8/6/4/4.

Let him reduce skill DCs for non opposed roles by 1 or 2 a level for all skills, and give him bonus skill tricks

Then assuming you add the rogue stuff it should be a durable tier 3.