Shrink item, flying, and high density objects.

[Stannum (IV)]

Hello. I was putting together spells for wands for a rogue recently, and I noticed that the spell Shrink Item does not have a weight limit on the item. Not having a science course this year, I decided to dust off one of my good periodic tables and see what this might allow for shrunk volumes of heavy metals. It works out to about 7000 pounds for lead (at CL 5), and even more for gold and platinum (though in what situation, aside from transportation, that much gold and platinum would be more useful shrunk that spent, I do not know) (Interestingly enough, the metals priced in the SRD are go down in density as they go down in price). The spell specifically reduces weight to 1/4096 the original weight, making it easy to carry around. At first, I was simply going to see if I could use this to overburden ships while they were at sea (5 days out from port, to be precise). But I started thinking about what could be done with dropping large chunks of metal from a distance of 500ft up or so. It seemed an appropriate topic for a thread. So here is a thread, if anyone else has thoughts on the uses of many tons of metal in a convenient, palm-sized package. Specifically, if anyone knows where the statistics for the price of lead might be found, the reflex save DC for a large chunk of metal being dropped on someone (and the resulting cratering effect, depending on velocity), or the maximum height a character can reach with common methods of flight, those would be appreciated.
-Stannum (IV)
Short time reader, first time thread starter.

[Fyermind]

One pound of lead costs 5 cp according to page 278 of draconomicon. Hope this helps

Edit: Also used as an improvised weapon (such as when thrown) very heavy items deal 5d6+1d6/200 lbs over 400 lbs.

when it comes to just dropping them, they deal 1d6 per 200 lbs + 1d6 per 10 feet beyond the first, and no damage for under 10'.

[Darrin]

There is no Ref save to avoid a falling object in Core (however, many DMs may come up with something as a house rule if you surprise them with this tactic).

If you have Heroes of Battle, then you can use the Aerial Bombardment rules, which gives a Ref save DC 15 to avoid all damage.

The falling object rules caps damage at 20d6, so there's no need to create anything heavier than 4000 lbs (200 lbs per 1d6).

[Curmudgeon]

There is no Ref save to avoid a falling object in Core (however, many DMs may come up with something as a house rule if you surprise them with this tactic).
Really? Pieces from a collapsing ceiling may be avoided with a DC 15 Reflex save; see Dungeon Master's Guide on page 66. If you can avoid all the parts of an entire ceiling falling around your location, you probably can avoid a single falling object.

This saving throw matches the supplemental rule about avoiding falling objects in Heroes of Battle.

[Fyermind]

That reflex save is annoying, which is why I included the improvised weapon rules. If you throw the item rather than dropping it, you can deal considerable (uncapped) damage with it, and target AC rather than a set DC 15 reflex save. It might also allow precision damage....

[Darrin]

Really? Pieces from a collapsing ceiling may be avoided with a DC 15 Reflex save; see Dungeon Master's Guide on page 66. If you can avoid all the parts of an entire ceiling falling around your location, you probably can avoid a single falling object.


If there was any indication that the rules on page 66 were directly related to an unrelated section 237 pages later, or that the rules on page 303 mentioned anything about "see the section on Cave-Ins and Collapses in Dungeon Terrain", then I might find this a compelling argument. Treating a falling object as if it were a Falling Block Trap (DMG p. 72) could also work, but this involves not a Ref save but an attack roll (which isn't mentioned on page 303 either). In either case, this is much closer to the DM creating an ad-hoc houserule to satisfy common sense and clarify something that the Falling Object rules on page 303 don't adequately address.



This saving throw matches the supplemental rule about avoiding falling objects in Heroes of Battle.

It does not match. The Ref save DC 15 to avoid a collapsing ceiling is for half damage. The Ref save to avoid aerial bombardment is to negate all the damage.


That reflex save is annoying, which is why I included the improvised weapon rules.


Annoying and arbitrary. Avoiding a 2' anvil has the same Ref save as avoiding a 20' x 40' boat.



If you throw the item rather than dropping it, you can deal considerable (uncapped) damage with it, and target AC rather than a set DC 15 reflex save. It might also allow precision damage....

The Aerial Bombardment rules are closer to this. You make an attack roll against a square (AC 5), and apply penalties for improvised weapon, range (using a 50' increment), and the maneuverability class of the bomber. No precision damage (you're aiming at a square, not a creature's physiology). For objects dropped above 250', the rules say treat them as "indirect hits (see below)", but there's nothing about indirect hits mentioned in any subsequent text, so I have no idea how objects dropped above 250' would work any differently. Attacks that miss scatter using the Missing with a Thrown Weapon diagram (PHB p. 158), but unfortunately there's no mention about what to do with objects that are larger than 5' x 5'. A huge object (15' x 15') would scatter a maximum 5', guaranteeing a hit on your target square, and throws some doubt on the appropriateness of a Ref save to avoid damage.

[Stannum (IV)]

Would they still get a reflex save if both my character and the object were invisible (assuming they cannot see invisible)? Also, would one be able to affect the shrunk item with spells as if it were its adjusted size, and/or would that void the requirement of nonmagical item for the shrink item spell?
I did the math and looked a few things up and found that, unless one gets to heights where one must use teleport spells or fly for many hours, if not days, prevents drag, or otherwise messes with the object beyond what I have considered, the most that one can hope for in terms of impact effect is a few tens of pounds of TNT. I assume there are already better ways to deliver that much explosive power with 5th-level spells or days of effort (Although dropping 28300lbs of lead (40ft^3, CL 20) from the edge of space results in about 1.5 tons of TNT in kinetic energy at impact, if one encases it in force or otherwise prevents erosion from friction and heat. Pretty good investment of 1415 gold pieces worth of lead, some spells, and some travel time, if one could aim it)
Thank you all for answering my questions.

[Chess435]

Amusingly, you can use said rules to make a reflex save vs. Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies. :smallamused:

[TuggyNE]

Amusingly, you can use said rules to make a reflex save vs. Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies. :smallamused:

With sufficient rocks, this doesn't work very well. :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

From what I can piece together using all the various "stuff falls on you" rules, it's a DC 15 reflex save against a dropped item. If it's stuff falling over a large area (somewhat arbitrary here) then it's save for half damage, if it's something falling on just you it's save for no damage. So if a boat is falling on you it's DC 15 for half damage, and if it's an anvil it's DC 15 save for no damage. I guess I'd rule it as "if there's a space next to you that's not getting hit, reflex save for no damage, otherwise save for half" but that's just an interpretation.

As far as scattering goes when you miss, that's based on the usual thrown weapon rules. If it drops within one range increment, it scatters 5'. If it falls two range increments, it scatters 10'. Three, 15'. And so on.

Either way, a giant lead ball shrunk down and dropped would be formidable indeed... if they don't have evasion. Just make it big enough to use the "falling cave ceiling" rules and you should easily do 10d6 or more damage even when they make their saves.

JaronK