Building for the Long Haul (3.5)

[Amphetryon]

Most of the time, people seem to play D&D within a certain range of levels, and need Characters that are solid only within a majority of that range; the fact that a given Character build doesn't come online until 6th level and loses steam after 9th is of small consequence if the DM is running a campaign from level 6 - 10, for example. But, what if. . . .

Assume you have a DM and a group of 3 other Players (edit for clarity: besides yourself) whom you can trust to commit to the long haul. The DM wants to run a game from 1st level until one or more Characters hit 21st, and you're all on board. The DM has given a 32 point buy for Characters, isn't allowing LA or Monstrous HD, is enforcing Multi-class penalties modified such that your 1st level is your Favored Class regardless of Race, and has banned all forms of Leadership, Feat retraining and Psychic Reformation. She's asked, and you've all agreed, that everyone choose a different starting Class (and 4 different Specialist Wizards, or Druids with different ACFs, don't qualify as "different starting Class"). Other than that, all official WotC books are allowed with the Gentlemen's Agreement that nobody is going to try for Pun-Pun, the d2 Crusader, or other builds known to snap 3.5 in half.

What would you make to try to stay relevant for the vast majority of the game's levels? What would you hope the rest of your team looks like?

[Norin]

Making a simple combination:

1 Cleric or druid (Tank\healing\buffing)
1 Wizard (BFC\utility\buffing\blast\etc)
1 Factotum (or Rogue) (Skillmonkey\face\utility\some damage)

That's the firs thing that pops into my head.

If you want to be more fair to the last guy in the group you could do well with a party of all tier 1's too:

1 Cleric
1 Druid
1 Wizard

At least this last option will have the chars shine from mid to high\epic levels. Maybe the Druid will outshine the 2 others a bit at low-levels?

[Archmage1]

Well, it honestly depends on what the others are going for
if the others(and assuming the other players are decent at optimization)
are going for wizard, archivist, cleric, then I would probably try to convince the wizard player to go wizard. And hire a fighter for temp work.
If they are going more t3 characters, then I would probably go for warlock(which is never really relevant, but can be fun), or one of the partial casters

If you are not optimizing to a massive degree, the multiclassing penalties are not that bad, and most of the t3+ characters are ok without it.
And if you do suck for a level or 2...
it happens. Just make sure that everyone does not suck at those levels.

[Amphetryon]

Making a simple combination:

1 Cleric or druid (Tank\healing\buffing)
1 Wizard (BFC\utility\buffing\blast\etc)
1 Factotum (or Rogue) (Skillmonkey\face\utility\some damage)

That's the firs thing that pops into my head.

If you want to be more fair to the last guy in the group you could do well with a party of all tier 1's too:

1 Cleric
1 Druid
1 Wizard

At least this last option will have the chars shine from mid to high\epic levels. Maybe the Druid will outshine the 2 others a bit at low-levels?
What's the 4th Player build? "You have a DM and 3 other Players" indicates the people present besides yourself.

[Norin]

Oh, what i would make as far as my own char to play?

I thought you meant a party of 3. Hah.

I think i would go with a pure tier 1 class. They keep up from 1 to epic even without multiclassing or prc'ing out. Probably Wiz or Druid.

[Amphetryon]

Oh, what i would make as far as my own char to play?

I thought you meant a party of 3. Hah.

I think i would go with a pure tier 1 class. They keep up from 1 to epic even without multiclassing or prc'ing out. Probably Wiz or Druid.

That gives the party 2 Wizards, which is verboten.

[Norin]

That gives the party 2 Wizards, which is verboten.

Sorry, a bit tired here. :smalleek:

That last post was in answer to what char i would play myself, not knowing what the rest of the party was composed of.

[Piggy Knowles]

Totemist is a nice 1-20 build that I'd be happy to play under these rules. Maybe go for a warforged keep-on-truckin' style totemist a la Rusty.

The changeling factotum/artificer I'm playing is a lot of fun and would have been good at low levels, too.

A Song of the White Raven-focused bard/crusader is one that I've never played in an actual game, but I've statted out and seems like it would play well at all levels.

(Can you tell I like skill/utility focused builds?)

[Chilingsworth]

I'd probably play a redux of what I'm playing now: a beguiler/wizard/ultimate magus. I've played him from levels 1-5 with no complaints so far.

That or a Bard/sublime Chord, or even just a straight up bard.

[Deophaun]

Any tier 3 would work straight 20.

[Ignis6669]

I would want to play a Cloistered Cleric/Contemplative with Spontaneous Domains. I've done it before and it's kind of fun.

I think it would be neat if the rest of the party looked something like this:
Wizard or Psion (I like blasters because they're fun to play with.)
Rogue or Factotum (I'm not good at sneaky stuff)
Monk or Fighter or Ranger (Really, anything that'll take a punch to the face for me while I stand back and cast my spells)

I know that it's not the most OPTIMIZED team build, but I've played with something similar before and it was a bunch of fun. The Caster blew a bunch of stuff up, while the monk threw people around (Though, to be fair, he was a werewolf). I used my spells mostly to control the battlefield (I was a cleric of Obad-Hai, so I scoured the splat books looking for Nature themed spells. Which meant a good number of spells for changing the layout of the land), but I was known to keep a few people alive as well. And the Sneaky guy mostly was good for... Well, sneaking I guess. :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

Warblade 20 or Crusader 20 - Tank
Rogue 2 / Swordsage 18 - Skill monkey / Mobility fighter, get able learner and craven
Elven Generalist Wizard 20 - all the utility and BFC
Cleric 20 - Second tank / Recovery / Buffs

- Really the wizard may feel a bit slow at level 1, but focus on spells like enlarge person and such to buff others. A longbow will fill in the rest of his low level actions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Illumian (Krau/anything) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Mindbender 1/ Incantatrix 4+, two flaws, Able Learner, Versatile Spellcaster, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, and any metamagic feat by 3rd level. Specialize in Conjuration with Enchantment and Evocation banned, use Martial Wizard to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, get Abrupt Jaunt instead of a familiar, use the Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will for Incantatrix. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend Beguiler spell slots two at a time to spontaneously cast Wizard spells you've learned. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) and can take Able Learner, which allows this Int-SAD character to be the party's skillmonkey/trapmonkey.

Cleric 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 5/ Morninglord 9, a fairly standard build that can do anything a Cleric is normally capable of plus destroy undead like a boss. A good alternative would be a LN Cleric of Zarus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=1) 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, starting out with the Strength and War domains and gaining the Oracle, Law, and Destiny domains throughout his career.

Druid 20, self explanatory. Greenbound Summoning at 1st level is highly recommended, but it borders on snapping 3.5 in half due to the crowd-controlling power of Wall of Thorns.

DFI Savage Bard into Sublime Chord with Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) (if available) and/or Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, and eventually an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW).

[Flickerdart]

Crusader 5/Soldier of Light 2/Divine Crusader 2/Prestige Paladin 2/Contemplative 1/Ordained Champion 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5. Mixes it up in melee while the going is still good, picks up massive save bonuses as soon as spells really start to hit hard, and then rapidly ramps up to 9th level spells (I think - if not, then replace some RKV and OC levels with more DC levels) from an ever-increasing list. PrCs don't count for MC penalties, so it's good on that front.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm actually running my group through a long-haul game right now. Their party is a Binder 4, Cloistered Cleric 4, Sorcerer 4, Swordsage 4, Warblade 4. The Sorcerer plans on grabbing War Weaver levels at some point, but aside from that, they're staying single-classed.

[Talionis]

I would want to run in tier 3 or even tier 4. For a long haul game you don't want your role players to feel too narrow and you wouldn't want each character to do it all on his own.

Biggest thing I would worry about is becoming bored with the game, so I personally would want to play a character with some Chameleon and Incarnum, but Binder would be another similar direction where you have a character that is flexible and can do a lot of different things. You could vastly alter the way you play your character from day to day.

Summoner would also be a similar idea because you could summon different stuff all the time. Summoner might also replace a fighter as the "meat shield".

But with better players, I would try to challenge the PC to pick characters with lots of options, but without being a tier 1 or two.

[Amphetryon]

For those who didn't specify, what Feats and - where appropriate - Skills would you pick up to keep yourself relevant throughout the journey as well as in the end-game in this setup?

[koboldish]

I would play a Shadowcraft Mage. The class only really starts working at 9th level or so, but you are a wizard before that, which works well enough. The class never really loses any steam for a long time.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, weather playing a bard of an ultimate magus, I'd definately take able learning and lots of knowledge skills (plus spellcraft and concentration.)

If playing a bard or sublime chord, I'd song of the heart, melodic casting, lyric spell, and versatile spellcaster. (My DM doesn't allow BOED, so no words of creation.) I'd also maximize perform, obviously, and definately heavily invest in UMD. Some of my spells would include inspiational boost, plus sonorous hum, harmonic chorus, and hymn of praise/infernal threondy as apporpriate. Also, Grease, mirror image, haste, and dragonsight. Sublime Chord spells would include enervation, cloudkill, teleport, black tentacles, polymorph, and gate.

If playing an ultimate magus, I'd keep my search and disable device ranks maxed in addition to the knowledge skills, spellcraft, and concentration. Also tumble and possibly UMD. For feats, I'd take a selection of metamagic feats appropriate to the specific character, plus maybe a crafting feat or two, and maybe combat casting to allow me to finish the build with abjurant champion.

Spells would include beguiler spells up to at least 4th level, plus a batman-ish wizard mix.

[Piggy Knowles]

For those who didn't specify, what Feats and - where appropriate - Skills would you pick up to keep yourself relevant throughout the journey as well as in the end-game in this setup?

With skill monkey builds, I always calculate the total number of skill points I'll get throughout my career. Then I make a list of what skills (and skill tricks) I'd like to have, and any benchmarks to hit within that. From there I cut and trim until I hit the right skill total. When divvying up in levels, I like to max out opposed roll skill checks at each level, while making "dumps" into skills that really just need to hit reliable benchmarks. Often I'll save the next "dump" for the next time I take a level in a class with a whole bunch of skills. This helps me keep my skills relevant at levels that actually matter.

For example, I mentioned above that I'm really enjoying my current factotum/artificer. Here is my planned skill load-out for him:


MAX:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, UMD (184 ranks total)

OTHER SKILL BENCHMARKS:
Autohypnosis 1 rank, balance 5 ranks, concentration 1 rank, craft (alchemy) 10 ranks, disable device 10 ranks, disguise 5 ranks, gather information 5 ranks, knowledge (arcana) 1 rank, knowledge (local) 5 ranks, knowledge (religion) 1 rank, open lock 5 ranks, search 18 ranks, sleight of hand 12 ranks, spellcraft 1 rank (80 ranks total)

SKILL TRICKS:
Assume Quirk, Clarity of Vision, Conceal Spellcasting, Listen to This, Mosquito's Bite, Nimble Charge, Second Impression, Social Recovery, Spot the Weak Point (12 ranks total)

(276 skill ranks needed in all.)


For feats, I'm a little bit more flexible. I always plan out what feats are actually required first, then make a list of what else I'd like the character do, and think about how to plug each other feat in so that it comes around at a level that's useful.

Some characters have "must have" feats for reasons other than pre-requisites, of course. A stealth character, for instance, is going to want to have Darkstalker very early in his career (I like first level, when possible, so that I can sneak past guard animals that seem to pop up all over the place in low level games).

Again, using my factotum/artificer as an example, my first two feats were Able Learner and Darkstalker. I plan to take the Spymaster class toward the end of the game, because I want to use Magic Aura at will, so I've also taken Skill Focus (Bluff). There are some other feats that are more interesting, but if I've got to take it, I'd rather take it early. +3 to my bluff check is a pretty big buff at level 5, but barely makes any notice at level 15. So with no retraining allowed in this campaign, I took it at level 6, and bumped back some of my other feats a bit.

[Randomguy]

A few possible combinations:

Wizard, Cleric, Druid and Skillmonkey, where the skillmonkey is either a rogue, bard, factotum or beguiler.
The Druid tanks, the cleric either tanks or does Zen Archery.
The bard would probably be going into sublime chord for a level and then after that into Virtuoso (to keep advancing bardic music) and would use Dragonfire Inspiration to buff up the melee types.

Alternatively, swap either the druid or the cleric for a different class such as:
Fighter: Yes, there are a few good fighter builds that don't involve much multiclassing, such as the tripper, charger, Jack Be Quick, and dungeoncrasher.
Duskblade: These work pretty well at all levels.
Totemist: These also work pretty well at all levels, as someone else mentioned.

[Acanous]

Wizard
Cleric
Archivist
Factotum

done.

[Amphetryon]

Wizard
Cleric
Archivist
Factotum

done.

"Done" implies you have selected Feats, Skills, and (where appropriate) Spells for each Character. Those selections do not appear to have made it to the quoted post. Elaborate?