Focused Specialist Conjurer vs Generalist Wizard [Archive]

killem2

2012-12-30, 11:03 AM

I've read quite a lot about both of these and they seems to come up quite often, mostly because I assume Conjuration is one of the most powerful schools for damage dealing and Generalist Wizard overall seems to be THE versatile wizard.

In the end, is there a huge difference in power or just how that power is actually turned into wins and loses?

Piggy Knowles

2012-12-30, 11:15 AM

In my own experience, focused specialists are better at low levels, when total spells per day is a major concern. At higher levels, the versatility offered by the generalist makes it the better option.

This is especially true for the focused specialist. What three schools do you drop? Abjuration seems like an easy choice if you've got a cleric in the party, but Mind Blank is a singularly useful spell that the cleric doesn't pick up, and if you plan to take advantage of planar binding then you'll NEED this school. Enchantment means no Mind Rape, Feeblemind, Irresistible Dance, etc. Evocation loses things like Contingency and Forcecage. Illusion gives you the best non-AC defenses in the game, not to mention Simulacrum. Necromancy means no Shivering Touch, no Animate Dead, Clone, Magic Jar, etc. Sure, there are workarounds for most of these, but high level wizards are all about having the ultimate answer to any potential problem, and keeping all of this open is, in the end, probably going to be more useful than a few extra castings per day.

I'd say the tide starts turning away from the focused specialist around level 9, and shifts solidly toward the generalist's favor around level 13 or so, but YMMV.

Deophaun

2012-12-30, 11:17 AM

A first level generalist wizard is likely only going to have 2 1st-level spells he can cast per day. A first level focused conjuration specialist will have four. This pattern will repeat every time the wizards gain access to a new spell level (3rd level Generalist will have 2 2nd-level spells, 3rd level Specialist will have 4).

It is recommended that parties have four encounters per day.

That should answer your question.

Seer_of_Heart

2012-12-30, 11:42 AM

You can easily have enough spells if you're an elven generalist domain wizard, that would get 1 extra highest level spell slot and 1 domain spell slot.

Deophaun

2012-12-30, 11:47 AM

You can easily have enough spells if you're an elven generalist domain wizard, that would get 1 extra highest level spell slot and 1 domain spell slot.
But it seems you would have to be an elf, in which case, you've already lost. :smallwink:

Piggy Knowles

2012-12-30, 12:03 PM

Again, that's a much bigger deal at low levels than it is at high levels. But at higher levels, when you have more than enough spells to last each encounter (and various ways of breaking the assumed number of encounters per day into sad little pieces, not to mention of refreshing spells), the generalist's versatility will be what really saves the day. Hence my own experience that, pre-level 9, you're pretty much always going to want a specialist, and post-level 13, you're pretty much always going to want a generalist.

Seer_of_Heart

2012-12-30, 12:24 PM

But it seems you would have to be an elf, in which case, you've already lost. :smallwink:
What do people have against elves here :smallannoyed:? Elves are personally my favorite race.

Amnestic

2012-12-30, 12:37 PM

What do people have against elves here :smallannoyed:? Elves are personally my favorite race.

At a very simplistic level: Overabundance ("There's an Elf for that!") and generally not terribly interesting racial background (tree huggers).

Urpriest

2012-12-30, 01:47 PM

At a very simplistic level: Overabundance ("There's an Elf for that!") and generally not terribly interesting racial background (tree huggers).

In addition to the Con penalty, when a class's HD are generally insufficient to give decent hp without a good Con bonus.

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-12-30, 02:24 PM

As long as you're banning evocation, there's still shadow evocation. Comes online later for contingency, but it is an option. Necromancy and Enchantment are terrible things to lose, either. Transmutation can cover a good amount of Fort save or X and Illusion covers the Will save or X.

Seer_of_Heart

2012-12-30, 02:38 PM

In addition to the Con penalty, when a class's HD are generally insufficient to give decent hp without a good Con bonus.

I thought every elf had fairie mysteries initiate as their first level feat as part of their backstory

How do you do blue text?

Snowbluff

2012-12-30, 02:43 PM

At a very simplistic level: Overabundance ("There's an Elf for that!") and generally not terribly interesting racial background (tree huggers).

Every -blade class is an elven class.

I guess the difference in back story between Eternal Blade, Warblade, and Duskblade is lost to you. Except for each one being a lost art... dammit. :smalltongue:

I thought every elf had fairie mysteries initiate as their first level feat as part of their backstory

How do you do blue text?

The top line of the editor, there is an with a black box under it. Click the arrow to the right of that.

Not that you need to. FMI is a really good feat. Easily a good option for a Grey Elf.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-30, 02:47 PM

Snow Elves in Frostburn are neither treehuggers nor do they suffer a Con penalty. Grey Elves and Fire Elves are still among the most optimal Wizard races even without the Elf substitution levels.

It's generally accepted that if you're making a generalist wizard, you're using the elf generalist sub level. Without that you're always going to be better off specializing or using domain wizard.

Conjurer has other benefits besides spells/day. You can get the Abrupt Jaunt ACF in PH2, which is useful throughout your entire career as it allows you to automatically avoid attacks, among other things. You can trade Scribe Scroll for Augment Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants), although any Wizard can trade it for Improved Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) and still get one of the Wizard 5 ACFs in CC. If you want both Abrupt Jaunt and Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants), you can (reasonably) spend a feat on Obtain Familiar (CA) and trade that one for Rapid Summoning.

Seer_of_Heart

2012-12-30, 02:48 PM

Yep other varieties maybe not so much but its wonderful on grey elves, and on almost every other type. It makes all int based classes SAD, the other stats are barely necessary.

elonin

2012-12-30, 03:09 PM

Another reason to specialize is that it helps a bit with narrowing down your spell selection. I'm unorganized enough that my wizard's spell books end up being bloated.

Morcleon

2012-12-30, 03:59 PM

Every -blade class is an elven class.

... >.> (http://dndtools.eu/classes/bloodstorm-blade/) :smallamused:

that you need to. FMI is a really good feat. Easily a good option for a Grey Elf.

FMI (when allowed) should always be the first feat taken by anything focused on Int, especially the squishier ones. Which means you can semi-dump Con, although having it too low is bad for your Fort save.

Snowbluff

2012-12-30, 04:02 PM

... >.> (http://dndtools.eu/classes/bloodstorm-blade/) :smallamused:

Morcleon, that PrC requires Ironheart maneuvers. Warblades are the natural entry and it is obviously part of the Elven plot to confuse you.

Also, I forgot Revenant Blade. And Bladesinger.

Morcleon

2012-12-30, 04:07 PM

Morcleon, that PrC requires Ironheart maneuvers. Warblades are the natural entry and it is obviously part of the Elven plot to confuse you.

Also, I forgot Revenant Blade. And Bladesinger.

What (http://dndtools.eu/classes/blade-bravo/) about (http://dndtools.eu/classes/incarnum-blade/) these (http://dndtools.eu/classes/shining-blade-of-heironeous/) PrCs (http://dndtools.eu/classes/invisible-blade/)? :smallwink:

Arcanist

2012-12-30, 04:14 PM

I'd personally rather go with FS-Conjurer. Infinite CL Gate is just to much to pass up :smallamused:

Seer_of_Heart

2012-12-30, 04:15 PM

I'd personally rather go with FS-Conjurer. Infinite CL Gate is just to much to pass up :smallamused:

What is this:smalleek:? Explain to me the trick used here please

Arcanist

2012-12-30, 04:58 PM

What is this:smalleek:? Explain to me the trick used here please

In Dragon Magazine issue #325 the was a feat that allowed a specialist theurge (like a conjurer) to add there Wizard CL to there Divine half for the sake of spells they specialize in (in the given example all Conjuration spells) now the trick is adding in levels of Ur-Priest which states

to determine the Ur-Priests caster level add the Ur-Priest level to half whatever caster level the Ur-priest belong to

With the way it is worded you gain a cl for each cl of Ur-Priest you have and your Ur-Priest gains a cl for every 2 you gain resulting in an infinite loop. :smallsmile:

The only Drawback is you are required to specialize .

I stand corrected: it actually say "level" not caster level.

Darth Stabber

2012-12-30, 05:08 PM

A first level generalist wizard is likely only going to have 2 1st-level spells he can cast per day.

Try 3 first level spells per day (int bonus). 4 if you can start with a 20 int. Get an 18 and be a grey elf or deep imaskari. If you go with a grey elf generalist you can start with 5.

Combining elven generalist with domain wizard is unlikely to ever be allowed, since they both require you too give up specializing. The two abilities are written differently, thus creating ambiguity, but most GMs who know what they are doing are going to drop the banhammer on that idea pretty quickly.

Seer_of_Heart

2012-12-30, 05:14 PM

They don't require you to give up specialization only one does. Although a DM can ban it on account of double dipping, but it is at least RAW legal. An imperfect but decent analogy is making a bet with someone that you will not ride your horse and then proceed to sell the horse.

Deophaun

2012-12-30, 05:52 PM

Try 3 first level spells per day (int bonus).
Try 2 first level spells per day (int bonus).

And as already stated, if you're an elf, you've already lost. I have a euthanasia plan for first level elves, so at level 3, a FS Conjurer will have four second level spells, and your grey elf generalist will be decomposing. That's hardly optimal.

Darth Stabber

2012-12-30, 07:34 PM

Try 2 first level spells per day (int bonus).

And as already stated, if you're an elf, you've already lost. I have a euthanasia plan for first level elves, so at level 3, a FS Conjurer will have four second level spells, and your grey elf generalist will be decomposing. That's hardly optimal.

You're right about int bonus, though you can still get 4 at first level. Deep imaskari, 18 before racial modifiers gives you 20 int. 20 int gives you 2 bonus spells. Add in the extra spell from spell clutch and the one from wizard and that gives you 4. Specialize or domain and you bring that up to 5. And the best part? You're not an elf.

Deophaun

2012-12-30, 07:44 PM

You're right about int bonus, though you can still get 4 at first level. Deep imaskari, 18 before racial modifiers gives you 20 int. 20 int gives you 2 bonus spells. Add in the extra spell from spell clutch and the one from wizard and that gives you 4. Specialize or domain and you bring that up to 5. And the best part? You're not an elf.
Now, let me ask you a question:

A first level generalist wizard is likely only...
How likely is this build? :smallwink:

Additionally, Spell Clutch's usefulness drops off precipitously, and you're still stuck at level 2 of only having 2 second level spells, compared to the FS Conjurer's 4, a pattern which only gets worse for the generalist as you approach 9th.

As for domain spells: hit or miss per level. Sometimes you get a wonderful spell at your level, sometimes you get a consolation prize.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-30, 07:54 PM

You can leave specialist/domain spell slots open and cast any spell you know from them via Uncanny Forethought.

Dragonborn + Grey Elf or Fire Elf is probably the strongest +0 LA race available for a Wizard.

Morcleon

2012-12-30, 07:55 PM

Darth Stabber

2012-12-30, 08:10 PM

Now, let me ask you a question:

How likely is this build? :smallwink:

Additionally, Spell Clutch's usefulness drops off precipitously, and you're still stuck at level 2 of only having 2 second level spells, compared to the FS Conjurer's 4, a pattern which only gets worse for the generalist as you approach 9th.

As for domain spells: hit or miss per level. Sometimes you get a wonderful spell at your level, sometimes you get a consolation prize.

Conjuration and transmutation are pretty spot on most levels. They are almost all spells you would want one or more of. Storm domain isn't great, but it gives you 3 druid spells (which aren't great, but storm of vengeance is fun).

Spell clutch isn't all it's cracked up to be, but it makes a big difference at low levels, the point at which wizard is weakest. It also has a semi spontaneous quality, since it retains a spell you cast instead of giving you a slot. At higher levels when it doesn't matter: you're a wizard and reality is your butt monkey.

You can leave specialist/domain spell slots open and cast any spell you know from them via Uncanny Forethought.

Dragonborn + Grey Elf or Fire Elf is probably the strongest +0 LA race available for a Wizard.

Once you are dragonborn, you no longer qualify for elven generalist

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-30, 08:15 PM

Once you are dragonborn, you no longer qualify for elven generalist

I don't think so (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b):

Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids
with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes
they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For
all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a
dragon and a member of her original race.

Darth Stabber

2012-12-30, 08:17 PM

I don't think so (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b):

I stand corrected.

Story

2012-12-30, 08:33 PM

If you're starting at level 3 or higher, you can bypass the CON penalty by going Necropolitan. Though at low levels, the 3k EXP and 3k GP cost will make you start off much weaker until you can catch up.

Golden Ladybug

2012-12-30, 09:18 PM

A focused specialist Conjurer is probably going to have more juice than the Generalist at almost every level, and is going to (obviously) be taking and using a lot more Conjuration Spells than the Generalist is likely to have on tap. And they also have Abrupt Jaunt.

So, it comes down to Power (FSC) vs Versatility (GW).

This falls down when we realize that the Focused Specialist has banned Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy/Abjuration, is pretending he didn't ban the former with Illusion Spells and summoning creatures with Charm and Charm-Like effects whenever he needs the middle. So, he's got Versatility and Power. And Abrupt Jaunt.

The Generalist can't really compete unless they start using Elven Domain Generalist tricks.

FMI (when allowed) should always be the first feat taken by anything focused on Int, especially the squishier ones. Which means you can semi-dump Con, although having it too low is bad for your Fort save.

Well...if you're comfortable with the roleplay requirements of the feat, or you can get your DM to waive or change them, then I completely agree with you.

But, as written, there are going to be a fair number of games where Faerie Mysteries Initiate isn't appropriate for the table.

Morcleon

2012-12-30, 09:25 PM

Well...if you're comfortable with the roleplay requirements of the feat, or you can get your DM to waive or change them, then I completely agree with you.

But, as written, there are going to be a fair number of games where Faerie Mysteries Initiate isn't appropriate for the table.

True. You could just tell them that it's a feat that gives Int to HP without any of the fluff. :smalltongue::smallamused:

Story

2012-12-30, 09:58 PM

I think a bigger problem is that it's from Dragon Magazine. I've done some questionable optimizations, but using Dragon material just feels dirty.

Can this be combined with Keen Intellect?

Snowbluff

2012-12-30, 10:01 PM

I think a bigger problem is that it's from Dragon Magazine. I've done some questionable optimizations, but using Dragon material just feels dirty.

Yeah, but it gets better. You eventually can't feel it after a while.

Morcleon

2012-12-30, 10:03 PM

I think a bigger problem is that it's from Dragon Magazine. I've done some questionable optimizations, but using Dragon material just feels dirty.

Can this be combined with Keen Intellect?

Yeah, Keen Intellect works, as it and FMI modify different things.

And I agree with Snow. It gets better. Also, think of it as broadening your horizons. :smallsmile:

Darth Stabber

2012-12-30, 10:42 PM

there are some things in dragon that don't rip balance to shreds. Tibbits are fine, as are diopsids. The bloodline feats for sorcerers are good, as are some of the fighter feats. Most of what's in the dragon compedium is just fine, as a gm I'll allow anything in there other than spell templates and dvati.

killem2

2012-12-31, 01:28 AM

Whoa, this thread has exploded lol.

I started the thread just because I am curious, but when I play D&D I do like to have a contingency plan. If I die, and don't have a way to res my character, my DM of this session allows a reroll = to your previous ecl - 1.

Both wizards types are fascinating to me.

If it helps, the sources we use:

Official Wotc Books: 3.0 (if not updated to 3.5), 3.5, Online Articles.
Dragon Magazine
Dungeon Magazine

We roll stats: 5d6 drop low 2.

No evil alignments.

LA and Racial HD are allowed. (Though, for this class, prob not advised :P)

We use flaws, we use traits.

We allow the lesser planetouched and anthropamorphic animals

What do you all think of the Spell gifted trait?

Thanks for all the responses, great info!

Morcleon

2012-12-31, 01:32 AM

Spellgifted is generally not good unless you're going with a killer gnome-style shadowcraft mage and can afford to over-specialize in illusions. To most other casters, you'll need more than just one good school to be effective.

killem2

2012-12-31, 01:42 AM

As far as races go, Tinker Gnomes seem pretty cool, pure power I suppose the halfling/human with extra feat is prob best though.

I rolled up these stats:

17
14
12
10
15
18.

Endarire

2012-12-31, 01:53 AM

Spellgifted is useful with the feat Practiced Spellcaster since PS mitigates the CL penalty from Spellgifted.

Story

2012-12-31, 02:23 AM

If anthropomorphic animals are allowed, why not just go Bat Druid? +6 Wisdom at LA 0 is just ridiculous, and once you hit level 6, the low move speed won't matter at all.

Edit: Do you get to choose which roll goes to which stat, or are you stuck with the 18 in charisma? You can make powerful Charisma casters too, but it takes more effort.

killem2

2012-12-31, 02:33 AM

Story

2012-12-31, 03:00 AM

Cloistered Cleric? It will take longer before you can completely trivialize your movespeed, but 24 Wisdom is nothing to sneeze at.

Of course, if you're an anthropomorphic animal, playing a Druid makes more sense thematically, but that's already ruled out.

Darth Stabber

2012-12-31, 05:29 AM

As far as races go, Tinker Gnomes seem pretty cool, pure power I suppose the halfling/human with extra feat is prob best though.

I rolled up these stats:

17
14
12
10
15
18.

If I were you I would go deep imaskari conjuration domain wizard.
str10, dex17, con15, int18, wis14, cha12
after racial modifiers
str10, dex15, con15, int20, wis14, cha12

Conjuration domain gives you a good spell at every level, you keep the other schools, and you aren't an elf. Instead you are a mutant human who escaped from a demi-tippyverse city. You qualify for most of the good wizard prcs and maybe the good human stuff if you can talk your gm into it.

Runestar

2012-12-31, 05:43 AM

Focused Specialist continues to stay useful and relevant even at higher levels. The reason for this is because high-lv spells are often the key determining factor of any encounter. A specialist's extra high-lv slots means that he is able to continue casting those higher-lv spells long after a generalist mage has run out of them.

For example, a lv20 human wizard with 30int has 5 9th lv slots. After he casts them, he then has to fall back on his 8th lv spells, followed by 7th and so on.

Meanwhile, a lv20 human focused specialist with 30int has 7 9th lv slots. He will be casting 9th lv spells long after the 1st wizard has run out, and when he does run out and starts using 8th lv spells, the 1st wizard probably has run out of 8th lv spells and is using 7th lv spells, and so on.

Also, there are sweet-spots where focused specialist is particularly worth it (e.g.: lv17 wizard has 1 9th lv slot; 17th lv FS has 3), potentially allowing you to triple your spellcasting prowess.

Personally, I find that there is little point in a wizard knowing so many spells, when you only have so many slots to fill them with, and a typical player usually chooses the same few spells over and over again anyways (unless you are using abilities like uncanny forethought which let you spontaneously cast any spell you know. I wouldn't hesitate in giving up 3 schools known for more spells.

In summary, in any game I play, I would go focused specialist: conjuration every time. :smallcool:

Piggy Knowles

2012-12-31, 08:24 AM

Don't forget that Incantatrix, arguably the best wizard PrC around, requires yet another school dropped. So if you were a Focused Specialist, you're now talking about 4 schools.

Slipperychicken

2012-12-31, 11:34 AM

Already been said, but bears repeating. Uncanny Forethought and loads of spells known lets Generalists win the game much harder than FS Conjurers, from both the ability to have any spell at any time, and to cut casting times. Also lets you laugh at any Sorcerers you run into. You are Schrodinger's Wizard, so have fun winning.

Story

2012-12-31, 01:54 PM

How do you exploit Uncanny Forethought? How many slots do you typically leave unprepared? Is the full round action and -2CL ever a real drawback?

Also, I don't think Pearls of Power work on unprepared slots.

Bonzai

2012-12-31, 05:23 PM

I just finished a campaign where I played a Focused Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Thuamaturgist 3. I have to say that it was the most fun I've had playing a wizard that I've ever had. Normally when I play a wizard, it's a generalist, and I spend an inordinant amount of time worrying out spell selection so that I can cover all the parties needs. With this build I got to focus on a few key things, and was amazed at how versatile those things could be. I gave up Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy.

Summons? I took the unearthed Arcana substitution level, so they are a standard action to cast. Combined with master specialist 10, I can summon them as a swift action 3 times a day. I also took Nexus method from living greyhawk, so I can spontaneously cast summon monster which adds to versatility.

Damage? Conjuration has some very nice area of effect spells. Many of them also ignore sell resistance. I don't miss evocation at all in that regard.

Battle field control? Conjuration is aces here. Evards, Caustic Mire, fog spells, etc... Offensive and defensive teleports. It has it covered.

Utility? Conjuration is no slouch. However, you noticed that I still have abjuration, divination, illusion, and transmutation available to cover the bulk of it.

So yeah, there is very little drawback to being a focused conjurer.

Runestar

2012-12-31, 08:23 PM

So yeah, there is very little drawback to being a focused conjurer.

I think it is more like conjuration is really one of the few schools versatile enough to be worth giving up 3 schools of magic, and whose spells are useful enough to be worth memorising multiple times.

Transmutation would be a close second; I can't imagine myself going focused necromancer or enchanter.

Deophaun

2012-12-31, 08:29 PM

Transmutation would be a close second; I can't imagine myself going focused necromancer or enchanter.
At that point, you're looking to bring the wizard into line with a Tier 3. You could focus specialize into pretty much any school and still have an effective character. You could even give up conjuration, transmutation, and illusion.

But yes, in these cases you are not getting back the value you've given up.

Slipperychicken

2012-12-31, 08:34 PM

How do you exploit Uncanny Forethought? How many slots do you typically leave unprepared? Is the full round action and -2CL ever a real drawback?

It's quite broken in and of itself; allowing Wizards to cast spontaneously removes the primary drawback of the Wizard class: You have an answer to everything, but need to anticipate it a day in advance. UF spits on that and puts your whole spellbook on your fingertips.

I played a Wizard with Uncanny Forethought. I left as many spells as possible (Int mod) left open for UF, and if I wanted a CL-dependent spell (long-duration buffs, damage, etc), I'd prepare it normally. So the -2 CL wasn't ever an issue.

The Full-Round/Standard actions thing, by RAW, doesn't care what the normal casting time is; you cast it as a Full-Round action, even if the actual casting time is much longer. Of course, abusing that probably won't sit well with your DM.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-12-31, 10:14 PM

A (focused) specialist with Uncanny Forethought can leave (focused) specialist spell slots empty and use them to cast spells from non-specialist schools.

You can always pick up Practiced Spellcaster to negate the -2 caster level, and exploit the Spellgifted trait at no additional cost. Note that Spellgifted is also more beneficial to a (focused) specialist than to a generalist.

An Elf Generalist does get quite a few more spells known at each level gained, but a (focused) specialist can pick up Collegiate Wizard (possibly via a Human or Strongheart Water Halfling bonus feat) and know just as many spells.

There are times when Focused Specialist or even specializing at all is a bad idea, such as when taking prestige classes which force an additional prohibited school (Red Wizard, Incantatrix).

killem2

2013-01-01, 01:45 AM

Ok I think I am convinced with the Conjurer.

Am I wrong in thinking that the tinker gnome from dragon lance seems like a pretty decent choice? -2 str, -2 wis, +2 dex +2 int, small size.

Though, strongheart halfling will let me have that extra feat.

I was thinking of going:

Unearth Arcane Variant: Rapid Summoning + Enhanced Summoning.

Take the spellgifted trait, also for feats take : Spell Focus Conjuration, Arcane Disciple (Summoner Domain), Practiced Spellcaster.

Unless you think it is worth the extra feat from the halfling, causing me to dump the +2 int bonus. I suppose it is only one extra spell slot at that point. I really like the idea of using sculpt spell, but what metamagic feat should I pick up in to qualify for it at level 3? (Just assuming the level ranges we are at now)

If I do this, I think I have a total CL for summon spells of 5, conjuration 4, and 4 for everything else.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-01-01, 01:56 AM

Arcane Disciple doesn't give you a domain's power, just the ability to cast the spells on that domain list. The Wizard 5 ACF in Complete Champion gives you a domain power, but you can't get it if you take UA's Enhanced Summoning.

If you want Enhanced Summoning, go Wizard 3/ Master Specialist X/ PrCs Y. I'd recommend Malconvoker.

If you want the CC ACF for the Summoner domain's granted power, use Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) instead and get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. You'll still get a Wizard bonus feat at 5th to trade for the domain power, regardless of what list you can pick that feat from.

Note that Arcane Disciple: Summoner can get you into Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm), which grants Augment Summoning for free if you don't already have it. When you hit 12th level your Planar Cohort can be a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm).

Story

2013-01-01, 03:23 AM

The feat Planar Touchstone lets you get any domain power, but it requires level 5. Or more specifically, Knowledge (The Planes) 8.

killem2

2013-01-01, 12:08 PM

I should give a bit more info.

Yes there is a dragonborn halfling druid, there is a half giant psychic warrior, a petal psion who is geared to be a diplomacy freak, a dragonborn celadrin sorcerer (who is wanting to become a double wand user), a ghost elf wizard who doesn't quite know the power of the wizard and chose spells based on their neatness and rp flavor rather than actual optimization. So we have three powerful magic users that really aren't tapping into the power. Maybe all three of them = 1 decent wizard.

The druid we have wants to be a healer/support type (Don't ask me why because I really don't know).

I have a cleric who is built for melee, and battlefield control but our melee is a bit light, and I know this DM is a melee heavy dm, and def loves his mooks.

I would like to be able to control those mooks, and I really love the idea of summoning my own creations.

Also, the melee we have is, well kind of a noob at d&d and I don't think it is really his interest, but he is the step son of the DM and I think he just wants him to be included with his step brother (the druid) as well.

So, tactically speaking, (and this dm is a tactical person), I kinda feel like I'd be left high and dry in melee lol, and even a cleric at level 1 can't take on the world lol, so I want this character to be ready for if I die.

Note that Arcane Disciple: Summoner can get you into Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm), which grants Augment Summoning for free if you don't already have it. When you hit 12th level your Planar Cohort can be a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm).

This is what I was doing the domain for, I didn't realize I don't get the power.

Darth Stabber

2013-01-01, 02:08 PM

killem2

2013-01-02, 02:22 PM

I just checked with my DM, he's ok with me dumping my cleric (since we have not started yet) and going with the conjurer.

I took the Magic Blooded (Spark Template) on a Strong Heart halfling.

I am going to take the rapid summoning ACF, and I think i am going to dive into Malconvoker. I am going to start off as a Spell-Gifted Focused Specialist Conjurer.

I like the idea of the sculpt spell MM feat, but what would you all pick to have that? Extend looks cool, maximize looks fun at higher levels to spawn tons of mooks.

I also like the Fiendish Summoning Specialist, but I have no idea where to start to find an addition evil monster before saturday for monster summon 1.

Slipperychicken

2013-01-02, 04:09 PM