Notion to balance Wizards/Clerics

[visigani]

All Wizards are restricted to a single school. Enchanters may only cast enchantment spells. Illusionists may only cast illusion spells. Transmuters may only cast transmutation spells... and so forth.

They can still cast any spell from a scroll, wand, or staff.


Clerics begin play with two domains, and may only cast spells from those two domains. At level 5, 10, 15, and 20 they acquire additional domains. The first two domains must be from the portfolio of their deity (if they have one), but may select any others at later levels so long as those domains are not directly directly opposed by the deities standard domains (cannot choose fire if your deities portfolio includes water, and so forth).

No bonus spells for high ability scores.

[Amidus Drexel]

Interesting idea. Your transmuters and conjurers are still going to be ludicrously powerful.



Clerics begin play with two domains, and may only cast spells from those two domains. At level 5, 10, 15, and 20 they acquire additional domains. The first two domains must be from the portfolio of their deity (if they have one), but may select any others at later levels so long as those domains are not directly directly opposed by the deities standard domains (cannot choose fire if your deities portfolio includes water, and so forth).


This I haven't heard before, although it sounds a lot like how Ardents learn powers.

[limejuicepowder]

Clerics are completely shot to hell - I think that is way too strong of a nerf. At level 1, they can only cast 2 different spells (and what about 0-level? Not that they really matter). But more than that, they have very little choice in what those spells are. With this change I would put them in low t3.

Note that low t3 isn't a bad place to be, but getting them there by removing virtually all of their options is a bad route to take, IMO. The low(er) levels especially would be exceedingly boring. If this was done I would probably boost the cleric's skill points to 4/level and give them a bonus feat at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, etc.

The problem with limiting wizards to a single school has been said before, many times: the schools aren't even close to equal. A conjurer or transmuter would be able to break the game nearly as easily as if there was no change at all.

I think a much easier and more balanced change is to just take away spells of 7th level or higher. Casters keep the same spell progression and same spell slots (high level slots would be for metamagic), they just wouldn't get auto-access to the most insane spells. At the DM's option, spells of that level could be introduced as artifacts of a sorts.

[Matticussama]

I agree with Amidus Drexel, you're still going to have trouble with Transmuter and Conjurer Wizards. I think the proposed Cleric fix would be pretty neat. In the end, though, you might just be better off restricting casters to the more specialized classes. Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, etc. They do pretty much what you want your specialist wizards to do, but with more supporting features that make the class more interesting than just a specialist Wizard.

Of course, if you really want to make the idea work, just ban some of the obviously more broken Transmutation and Conjuration spells and it would probably be fine.

[LanSlyde]

All Wizards are restricted to a single school. Enchanters may only cast enchantment spells. Illusionists may only cast illusion spells. Transmuters may only cast transmutation spells... and so forth.

They can still cast any spell from a scroll, wand, or staff.


Clerics begin play with two domains, and may only cast spells from those two domains. At level 5, 10, 15, and 20 they acquire additional domains. The first two domains must be from the portfolio of their deity (if they have one), but may select any others at later levels so long as those domains are not directly directly opposed by the deities standard domains (cannot choose fire if your deities portfolio includes water, and so forth).

No bonus spells for high ability scores.

All your doing with clerics is forcing people to be godless. Now instead of adhering to a specific deity people will be adhering to ideals so they can choose the domains that most closely depict those ideals.

... oh wait. You made clerics Ardents.

The idea behind wizards is interesting. But if I ever played in your game I would go diviner and pester the DM with divinations until I ran out of spells.

[Randomguy]

What about druids?

[limejuicepowder]

What about druids?

What about them? They aren't that good

[Amnestic]

What about them? They aren't that good

Heh.

I think the simplest solution would be "there are no druids. All druids are wildshape rangers or Spirit Shaman*". Whether it's the best solution remains to be seen.

*SS are the spontaneous druid casters, right?

[limejuicepowder]

Heh.

I think the simplest solution would be "there are no druids. All druids are wildshape rangers or Spirit Shaman*". Whether it's the best solution remains to be seen.

*SS are the spontaneous druid casters, right?

Spirit shaman are the spontaneous druids....sort of. They have an awesome casting mechanic, actually - the only sucky part is they need wisdom and charisma, to a certain degree.

Each day, they choose a number of spells off of the druid spell list. After that, they can cast those spells spontaneously. Besides a little bit of MAD, they get the best of both worlds.

[visigani]

Transmuters, so long as they have access to the more problematic spells, will always be a pain in the arse. To some extent the same is true of Conjurors.

However, this (in some respects) really makes some casters shine. Abjurationists, Enchanters, and definitely Illusionists suddenly become much more potent than they were before when compared to other casters.

[docnessuno]

So, is there any (non-fluff) reason to play a wizard over a sorcerer with this house rule in place?

[navar100]

All Wizards are restricted to a single school. Enchanters may only cast enchantment spells. Illusionists may only cast illusion spells. Transmuters may only cast transmutation spells... and so forth.

They can still cast any spell from a scroll, wand, or staff.


Clerics begin play with two domains, and may only cast spells from those two domains. At level 5, 10, 15, and 20 they acquire additional domains. The first two domains must be from the portfolio of their deity (if they have one), but may select any others at later levels so long as those domains are not directly directly opposed by the deities standard domains (cannot choose fire if your deities portfolio includes water, and so forth).

No bonus spells for high ability scores.

In other words: I hate spellcasters but I can't bring myself to outright ban them so I'm going to make them as difficult as possible to play one so that no one will want to play one such that the players ban them themselves.

[Morcleon]

All Wizards are restricted to a single school. Enchanters may only cast enchantment spells. Illusionists may only cast illusion spells. Transmuters may only cast transmutation spells... and so forth.




In other words: I hate spellcasters but I can't bring myself to outright ban them so I'm going to make them as difficult as possible to play one so that no one will want to play one such that the players ban them themselves.

Eh, it's not that bad. Play a shadowcraft mage. Get Arcane Disciple (luck). Get all the spells anyway. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

Eh, it's not that bad. Play a shadowcraft mage. Get Arcane Disciple (luck). Get all the spells anyway. :smalltongue:

What. Why is this sarcastic? It's the exact same thing I would do... except I would dip into Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and/or Warmage to fill out my list for similar investment. Munch my spell slots to cast spells I can't cast. :smalltongue:

[Morcleon]

What. Why is this sarcastic? It's the exact same thing I would do... except I would dip into Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and/or Warmage to fill out my list for similar investment. Munch my spell slots to cast spells I can't cast. :smalltongue:

Because the OP is asking for balance (as stated in the title). :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

Because the OP is asking for balance (as stated in the title). :smallamused:

FTFY

Tier 3 lists are balanced! ::::D I just have 3 of them.

[Morcleon]

FTFY

Tier 3 lists are balanced! ::::D I just have 3 of them.

Balance is in the eye of the beholder entity to which said balance is matched. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

Balance is in the eye of the beholder entity to which said balance is matched. :smalltongue:

Oh yes. By the by, did you here? I've been promoted to the Avatar of PC-dom.

[Morcleon]

Oh yes. By the by, did you here? I've been promoted to the Avatar of PC-dom.

Yay, senpai got an upgrade! *clap clap clap* ^_^

[Amidus Drexel]

So, is there any (non-fluff) reason to play a wizard over a sorcerer with this house rule in place?

Within the more powerful (or at least, larger) schools, there are enough good spells that a sorcerer would not necessarily be able know all of them. Also, the ability to use metamagic feats easily is still a point in the wizards' favor.

[Snowbluff]

Within the more powerful (or at least, larger) schools, there are enough good spells that a sorcerer would not necessarily be able know all of them. Also, the ability to use metamagic feats easily is still a point in the wizards' favor.

On the other hand, building a Cha SAD build is easier with Sorc than making an Int SAD build with Wizard. Also, more spells per day, and if you don't have more spells per day, you have more schools available.

Even if the Wizard banned spells he could Mimic with Shadow spells, shadow spells suck. Really bad.

Sorcerer Unique spells are just better in most situations. Wings of Flurry is jsut one of the best spells around.

Mailman is a Sorcerer. Even with the Feat/ACF tax to use MM effectively, being able to use it spontaneously is just better.

Versatile Spellcaster without dipping or staying in Wizard for 5 levels. If you have spellbook (from Magical Training or Wizard), you don't need to be a Wizard for the spells known.

Wait... why do I play wizard ever? Oh right, you get spells 1 level earlier. Assuming the Sorc didn't dip into a full list class.

EDIT: Wow, I did even get into the innate benefits of Spontaneous Casting. Sorc is quite at home never have to worry about the **** DM taking away his spellbook, counterspelling is a breeze, and you never have to count out how many of each spell you need at the beginning of the day.

[Amidus Drexel]

On the other hand, building a Cha SAD build is easier with Sorc than making an Int SAD build with Wizard. Also, more spells per day, and if you don't have more spells per day, you have more schools available.

Even if the Wizard banned spells he could Mimic with Shadow spells, shadow spells suck. Really bad.

Sorcerer Unique spells are just better in most situations. Wings of Flurry is jsut one of the best spells around.

Mailman is a Sorcerer. Even with the Feat/ACF tax to use MM effectively, being able to use it spontaneously is just better.

Versatile Spellcaster without dipping or staying in Wizard for 5 levels. If you have spellbook (from Magical Training or Wizard), you don't need to be a Wizard for the spells known.

Wait... why do I play wizard ever? Oh right, you get spells 1 level earlier. Assuming the Sorc didn't dip into a full list class.

Oh, sorcerer definitely looks nicer than it did before this proposed fix. Agreed on pretty much everything.

[Alabenson]

I've seen a large number of variations on this proposed nerf, and they all suffer the same problem; as has been pointed out, the spell schools are in no way equal, with the stronger schools being Tier 1 caliber all on their own.

The major problem with the Tier-1 classes is that there's no simple nerf that's going to bring them down to Tier-3. In order to accomplish that, one would have to go through their entire spell lists and nerf, alter, and/or ban each and every problematic spell. Otherwise, you're either going to render the classes unplayable or fail to have any material effect on their potential power.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Alabenson, your comment makes an interesting contrast with your sig.

"The major problem with the Tier-1 classes is that there's no simple nerf that's going to bring them down to Tier-3...If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it."

:smalltongue:

[Alabenson]

Alabenson, your comment makes an interesting contrast with your sig.

"The major problem with the Tier-1 classes is that there's no simple nerf that's going to bring them down to Tier-3...If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it."

:smalltongue:

In this case, brute force would be grabbing some guy and making him go through the various spell lists for you :smalltongue:.

[Morcleon]

In this case, brute force would be grabbing some guy and making him go through the various spell lists for you :smalltongue:.

"If violence wasn't your last resort, then you failed to resort to enough of it." :smallcool::smallwink:

[navar100]

I've seen a large number of variations on this proposed nerf, and they all suffer the same problem; as has been pointed out, the spell schools are in no way equal, with the stronger schools being Tier 1 caliber all on their own.

The major problem with the Tier-1 classes is that there's no simple nerf that's going to bring them down to Tier-3. In order to accomplish that, one would have to go through their entire spell lists and nerf, alter, and/or ban each and every problematic spell. Otherwise, you're either going to render the classes unplayable or fail to have any material effect on their potential power.


That's presuming there's a "problem" with Tier 1 in the first place and Tier 3 is the epitome of Everything That Is Right With The World And Everything Else Sucks Donkey.

For some people, there's nothing to fix at all. Wizards and Clerics play along with Fighters and Paladins and have no problems whatsoever, and the Wizard is not a blaster nor is the Cleric a healbot.

For those who do have a problem that they need to fundamentally change how the game works, just admit to yourself already you hate 3E and play some other game. 3E is not going to change for you, so you need to get over it and change the game you're playing.

If you just want to slightly alter, that's different. You can have a campaign with no wizards, only sorcerers, and make sure the concept of Gate or Time Stop does not exist if it bothers you so much. Divine Metamagic also does not exist. On the other end, perhaps use Tome of Battle instead of the PHB warriors, though probably keep barbarian. If don't want/like Tome of Battle, allow feat retraining and house rule armor does not impede movement if you're proficient and special material does not change armor designation for proficiency, i.e. mithral platemail is still heavy armor despite acting like medium armor.

Paizo did the work for you and made Pathfinder. If that does not satisfy your irkdom of 3E, the problem is still you. You still need to admit to yourself you just hate the 3E system already and find some other game more to your liking. As you play that other game, there is no need for you to hang around the 3E forums just to rant and bash 3E to vent your rage. Those of us who like 3E/Pathfinder are tired of hearing it. You'll never change our mind about the system. We like it, and if that bothers you, tough noogies.

All references to "you" is colloquial, not Alabenson specifically.

[toapat]

That's presuming there's a "problem" with Tier 1 in the first place and Tier 3 is the epitome of Everything That Is Right With The World And Everything Else Sucks Donkey.

For some people, there's nothing to fix at all. Wizards and Clerics play along with Fighters and Paladins and have no problems whatsoever, and the Wizard is not a blaster nor is the Cleric a healbot.

For those who do have a problem that they need to fundamentally change how the game works, just admit to yourself already you hate 3E and play some other game. 3E is not going to change for you, so you need to get over it and change the game you're playing.

If you just want to slightly alter, that's different. You can have a campaign with no wizards, only sorcerers, and make sure the concept of Gate or Time Stop does not exist if it bothers you so much. Divine Metamagic also does not exist. On the other end, perhaps use Tome of Battle instead of the PHB warriors, though probably keep barbarian. If don't want/like Tome of Battle, allow feat retraining and house rule armor does not impede movement if you're proficient and special material does not change armor designation for proficiency, i.e. mithral platemail is still heavy armor despite acting like medium armor.

Paizo did the work for you and made Pathfinder. If that does not satisfy your irkdom of 3E, the problem is still you. You still need to admit to yourself you just hate the 3E system already and find some other game more to your liking. As you play that other game, there is no need for you to hang around the 3E forums just to rant and bash 3E to vent your rage. Those of us who like 3E/Pathfinder are tired of hearing it. You'll never change our mind about the system. We like it, and if that bothers you, tough noogies.

um, no.

the problem with T1 compared to most T5s, is that a T1 will be eclipsing the rest of the party, if the T1 class is not played both incredibly casually, and the person playing the Tier 1 class understands how to specifically obey rule 1 of DnD 3.5. Reactive God Wizard is a fine concept for a reason, Batman Wizard is not.

You also have to understand the details of the tier system.

[JaronK]

I actually have been working on a rebalancing project on my own for a bit that includes a version of this idea. The way I deal with the whole "Transmuters and Conjurers are obviously stronger" is that the schools are paired... Necromancy with Divination, Enchantment with Illusion, and Evocation with Abjuration. But Conjuration and Transmutation stand on their own. So Transmuters can only cast Transmutation spells, but Abjurers can cast Abjuration spells and Evocation spells. And of course all Wizards have to specialize. However, Wizards get all the advantages of the UA variant Wizards without trading anything (so Necromancers get better undead when they create them, Abjurers are great at dispelling, and so on). I also gave them the PHBII variant abilities, and even gave them the Esoterica abilities of the Master Specialist class at 7, 11, and 14.

Then I moved some spells around. All Fire, Cold, Electrical, and Sonic spells that deal damage as a primary function are now Evocation (Including the Orb line, for instance). All Force spells that aren't already in Evocation are now Abjuration.

Then I did some general tweaks, like saying that all Conjuration spells that create something in the long term are not Instantaneous. Spells that were that are now Permanent. Permanent Conjurations can be dispelled, can never be used as material components, and can never be enchanted.

And then of course I still had to fix up some of the worst offenders among spells.

Finally, I said that no PrC grants continued spellcasting at level 1. Classes that would have granted full casting now just miss the first level, while classes that grant partial casting but had casting at level 1 now give that casting at the first level where they otherwise wouldn't have done so (so a class that granted casting at 1, 3, and 5 now grants it at 2, 3, and 5).

But I haven't tested it out perfectly yet.

For Clerics, I removed their Turn Undead ability and gave them 5 domains (which must all fit with their alignment, deity, or concept). They now cast spontaneously from those domains, and get one prepared spell per level from the main Cleric list (so, backwards from normal with their spell slots). They get one domain power of their choice at level 1, a second one at level 5, a third at 10, a fourth at 15, and a fifth at 20. Any domain power that affects Turn or Rebuke Undead (like Sun domain) now grants Turn or Rebuke Undead instead of the normal ability if you didn't already have it. That at least brings Clerics down to T2, I think... but again, this isn't fully tested.

JaronK

[ahenobarbi]

Clerics are completely shot to hell - I think that is way too strong of a nerf. At level 1, they can only cast 2 different spells (and what about 0-level? Not that they really matter). But more than that, they have very little choice in what those spells are. With this change I would put them in low t3.


It's not like they could just pick Spell domain and cast all arcane spells.

[akahdrin]

When I saw limejuice say that druids aren't that good, I had to laugh.

They have a class feature that is better than most other classes which isn't even counting the fact that they have spells and wild shape on top of that.

Even when just using the vanilla druid from the PHB, they're still very strong. If other books are allowed you get venom fire, g's blessing, fleshrakers...etc.

A level 5 druid with a fleshraker pet and himself as a flesh raker with venom fire can dish out up to 18d6 a round in acid damage, not counting the other 4 claws, 2 bites, 2 tails, and rakes that go along with it.

Keep in mind, this is using wild shape and 1 spell which at this level lasts for 5 hours. Yea druids aren't that strong at all. If you want to talk about stupid things just look at a planar shepherd with plenty of leadership. Druids are a T1 class, and for good reason.

[Amnestic]

When I saw limejuice say that druids aren't that good, I had to laugh.

It was in bluetext, which appears to be the go-to colour for sarcasm on the forum.

TheMoreYouKnow.