Animate Tiny Animal Undead [PEACH]

[kinem]

Animate Tiny Animal Undead (Andead)
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 0, witch 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (10 gp black onyx pebble)
Range touch
Target one Tiny or smaller animal corpse or skeleton
Duration permanent
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

This spell turns the body or bones of an animal of size Tiny or smaller into an undead resembling a zombie; it is called an andead. It has ½ d8 HD, 2 hp (or 1 hp if smaller than Tiny), no damage reduction or Toughness feat, and is Neutral in alignment, but otherwise follows the rules for the zombie template including Str +2, Dex –2. Despite these limitations, this spell is popular among novice necromancers because of its simplicity to learn and its relatively cheap material component.

The andead will obey the caster's commands but there are only a small number of commands that the andead is able to understand and obey:

- guard this place:
Attack all creatures within line of sight other than the caster or specific andead created by the same caster within sight or in sight when the order is given, up to a maximum total of 9 other andead. If more andead are in sight, they will not be able to keep track and will attack each other. If a creature to be attacked passes through the area, the andead will follow it and try to catch and attack it, though they will change targets randomly if additional targets are within sight.

- go there; stop; follow me; guard me here (attack any who attack me; the andead won't follow and guard under the same command); attack that creature.

It only obeys the last command given. If the caster is disguised or has substantially changed (such as being reincarnated in a different body) it will no longer recognize or obey the caster.

Unlike animate dead, this spell is an ongoing effect and can be dispelled, which kills the andead but leaves the body intact and able to be re-animated.

Also, if too many andead are close together, the magics will tend to interfere with each other. If more than 10 andead are within a 10' radius, then some of the spells will be dispelled (choose randomly) until there are no more than 10 left.

It remains otherwise animated until it is destroyed. If destroyed it cannot be reanimated again.

Regardless of the number of times this spell is cast, only a single undead from this spell may be controlled at any one time by a single caster. If one is animated using this spell while another is already animated, the original will become uncontrolled, though continuing to follow its last order.

It does not count against your HD limit of controlled undead. The undead can be created only from a mostly intact skeleton or corpse, and has the same stats in either case.

Feats that enhance or add qualities to undead that you animate do not work with this spell.

Sample creature:
ANDEAD RAT CR 1/10 XP 40
N Tiny undead
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+1 Dex, +2 size)
hp 2 (½ d8)
Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +2; Immune undead traits; Vulnerable dispelling
Speed 15 ft., climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.; staggered (single actions only)
Melee bite -1 (1d3–3)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Str 4, Dex 13, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD 6 (10 vs. trip)
Feats None; Skills None
Organization Solitary or guard pack (2-10)

Andead are created by the Animate Tiny Animal Undead spell. Unlike animate dead, this spell is an ongoing effect and can be dispelled, which kills the andead but leaves the body intact and able to be re-animated.

Also, if too many andead are close together, the magics will tend to interfere with each other. If more than 10 andead are within a 10' radius, then some of the spells will be dispelled (choose randomly) until there are no more than 10 left.

If andead are guarding an area, they will attack anyone who enters, other than the caster who animated them.

[Debihuman]

This probably shouldn't be a permanent spell for 0 level. I'd recommend that it create a temporary undead creature. 1 hour per caster level and when the spell ends the creature turns into a pile of bones again. Otherwise it seems fine.

Debby

[kinem]

Thanks for the comment, Debi.

If it's temporary, the undead can't be used as guards. Though in that case I could allow more than one to be controlled at a time, to make up for it. The other main limit is the material component. Note that in PF 0-level spells can be cast at will, so it needs a limiting factor.

I considered making the previous one die if a new one is animated, but then I realized that could be used for unlimited range instant communication, and I don't want that.

Still, I don't like the idea of a temporary spell. I can't see wanting to cast a spell like that. If you're a necromancer, you want undead minions. Not just defeating your enemies; any old fighter can do that! Necromancers don't just care about winning fights. They care about having an army of undead minions! Even if it's just one for the moment, or if you have to leave them just as guards and can't give them new orders. If all effects are temporary you might as well be a fighter or play a 4E wizard which is the same thing :smalltongue:

I could make it a first level spell but that would largely prevent sorcerers from taking it and generally discourage adventurers from taking it.

I am also assuming that a first level spell like this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/rite-publishing---3rd-party-spells/a/animate-skeleton) may be available, and I'm not trying to fill the same role with this spell.

A 0 level spell can also be used with the magical talent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-talent) trait.

[Debihuman]

Thanks for the comment, Debi.

If it's temporary, the undead can't be used as guards.

First, you can only control one at at time so it would be guard (singular). Second of all (and I can't believe I'm saying this): LOL! Just what would an undead zombie-like rat guard? A piece of cheese?!

Tiny and smaller Andead would be terrible guards. It has 2 hit points and a PC could step on it and kill it with an unarmed strike. It can run or it can attack but it can't do both. Plus, the only time it does any damage with its attack is if it makes a critical hit.

At a speed of 15, even the slowest PC will catch up to it quickly. Heck, nevermind a PC squishing one of these, a cat or dog would love these as toys! One bite from a dog destroys these. A dog does 1d4+1 damage with its bite and undead are destroyed at 0 hit points.

On the other hand, I could see a kobold shaman with this spell using it nightly to guard her dinner from other kobolds. Whether it is useful to the PCs is rather up to them. I always believe that more options are better than fewer options.

Srsly? This wasn't a joke?

Debby

[kinem]

First, you can only control one at at time so it would be guard (singular).

When uncontrolled they continue to follow their last orders; you just can't give new orders. So you could have a bunch of them guarding a place.

At the very least, if you find that your pet has been squashed, you know that someone was in that room. If you find a bite on someone you even know who it was.

An attack does a minimum of 1 point of damage, even if the STR penalty is larger than the die roll. They always do 1 damage on a normal hit. It's just written that way - as is the normal rat - because STR scores can change due to spells and such. If you cast Bull's Strength on it it's up to 1d3-1 damage, giving it a 1 in 3 chance of doing 2 damage instead of 1.

It's not meant to be a major part of a character's power, but it's something that a novice necromancer would learn.

[bobthe6th]

See, with destructive retribution, you can generate tiny negative energy fire balls. do able by first level.

start spamming them, with final orders like "do nothing in this bag," and now you have a bag of nd6 negative energy damage, costing 10gp for each die.
throw them 10ft up before they fall, and they will probably take enough falling damage to set them all off. Other answer is to put an alchemists fire in the bag, and peg some random thing with the mixture.

[Debihuman]

See, with destructive retribution, you can generate tiny negative energy fire balls. do able by first level.

This is why that spell should be temporary. So you can't have an army of exploding andead. This is why I never let PCs play evil characters.

Debby

[bobthe6th]

This is why that spell should be temporary. So you can't have an army of exploding andead. This is why I never let PCs play evil characters.

Well, they are paying 10gp a pop for them, and using two feats.

but really, thats why? That is a bad reason to ban evil characters. It might be a reason to ban necromancers, but there is no way Belklar is going to get an army of exploding rodents.

[kinem]

Bob, thanks for pointing that out. This was actually for Pathfinder (which has no corpsecrafter feats) but I want it to be compatible with 3.5 too.

I don't want it to be used that way, so I'll stipulate that corpsecrafter feats don't work with this spell.

[Debihuman]

Well, they are paying 10 gp a pop for them, and using two feats.

but really, thats why? That is a bad reason to ban evil characters. It might be a reason to ban necromancers, but there is no way Belklar is going to get an army of exploding rodents.

I ban evil characters because PCs are supposed to be heroes. Evil characters always want to take over the world and wreck havoc. Really what is that PC doing with an army of Undead creatures? Well, trying to take over the worldTM of course. It would start with an army of exploding zombie rats and go down hill from there.

As if 10 gp is hard to come by after one Monty Haul adventure. You've never played some older D&D modules did you?

Question: why can't Clerics use this spell or anyone with the Death domain? Good choice on changing duration to Permanent so it can be dispelled.

Debby

[bobthe6th]

pff, if you can't make a evil character that isn't a crazy world destroying monster you aren't trying. Much like every good character is not an angel. Kinda limiting either way.



As if 10 gp is hard to come by after one Monty Haul adventure. You've never played some older D&D modules did you?

Debby

More if you are bleeding levelx10gp every time you want to cast a negative energy fireball, you will notice eventually. especially if you start dumping more damage, as in start throwing 100 critters at something, your burning 1000gp a pop. Yeah it will annihilate a target, but thats a lot of gold to do it.

[Debihuman]

Losing 100 gp or even 1,000 is hardly bleeding gp. Pfft. You've obviously never run through the original Village of Homlett. "The portable treasure in Hommlet, (a village of just 166 persons, not counting children), amounts to 134,324 gp."

Anyhow, we're getting off topic. While I was looking at this, I decided to convert the spell and critter to 3.5

Animate Tiny Animal Undead
Necromancy
Components V, S, M
Level: Clr 0, Sor/Wiz 0, Witch 0
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One Tiny or smaller animal corpse or skeleton
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell turns the body or bones of a dead Animal of size Tiny or smaller into an undead creature resembling a zombie called an andead. An andead gains the Augmented Subtype, has ½d8 HD, 2 hp (or 1 hp if smaller than Tiny), no damage reduction, no skills or feats, and is Neutral in alignment, but otherwise follows the rules for the zombie template including Str +2, Dex –2.

Andead can follow the caster and obey the caster’s commands or can remain in an area and attack any creature entering the place other than the caster. If the caster is disguised or has substantially changed (such as being reincarnated in a different body) it will no longer recognize the caster.

It remains animated until it is destroyed. If destroyed it cannot be reanimated again. Unlike animate dead, this spell is an ongoing effect and can be dispelled, which kills the andead but leaves the body intact and able to be re-animated.

Regardless of the number of times this spell is cast, only a single undead from this spell may be controlled at any one time by a single caster. If one is animated using this spell while another is already animated, the original will become uncontrolled, though continuing to follow its last orders (so it won’t attack the caster if left on guard duty).

It does not count against your HD limit of controlled undead. The undead can be created only from a mostly intact skeleton or corpse, and has the same stats in either case.

Feats that enhance or add qualities to undead that you animate do not work with this spell.

Material Component:A black onyx pebble worth 10 gp

Sample creature

Andead Rat
Tiny Undead (Augmented Animal)
Hit Dice: ½d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 15 feet (3 squares) (can’t run), climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
Armor Class: 13, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+1 Dex, +2 size)
BAB/Grapple: +0/-11
Full Attack: Bite -1 melee (1d3-3) or Slam -1 melee (1d3-3)
Attack: Bite -1 melee (1d3-3) or Slam -1 melee (1d3-3)
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Single actions only
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 13, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: None
Feats: None
Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 1/8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: None

Single Actions Only (Ex): Andead have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round. An andead can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge.

Debby

[drack]

Well, they are paying 10gp a pop for them, and using two feats.

but really, thats why? That is a bad reason to ban evil characters. It might be a reason to ban necromancers, but there is no way Belklar is going to get an army of exploding rodents.

Not to mention your level one fireball is still only 1d6, why not just go for burning hands :smalltongue: (mind you the undead still needs to die, so it still takes an action to use each of them)

Bob, thanks for pointing that out. This was actually for Pathfinder (which has no corpsecrafter feats) but I want it to be compatible with 3.5 too.

I don't want it to be used that way, so I'll stipulate that corpsecrafter feats don't work with this spell.

Sadly there is a much bigger problem.
OK, I'm a happy little evel five now that the game is starting (that's not too high is it?). Surprisingly enough I have a whole 9000 gold burning a hole in my pocket. well I am a necromancer so naturally I'm gonne try to get some undeads. I start by tossing ~625 gold into getting me a nice pack of skeletal wolves because being Jim the necromancer, a kid who wants to do the right thing, but has always had a sick fascination for drowning and reanimating small animals, I'm naturally going to have animals. As it happens Jim's dad happened to raise dogs, dogs which now belong to Jim and the dark god that encourages his one bad hobby. So now that I'm down to 8375 gold I want more undeads, but I've hit my cap of HD. Luckily Jim has never liked being far from his undeads and thinks mean people that hurt him should die, so he spends his next 8370gold animating 837 little undeads and making a death horde always crawling about him with a nice readied action on all of them to each deal one damage whenever anything hits him. Luckily this is nothing compared to the 5000 damage/round that anyone attacking his 10th level elder brother would take

[kinem]

You wouldn't have that level of control over them. You could say "follow me and attack anyone who attacks me" and then it would not follow you, because it obeys only the last order, the one after the 'and'. And of course you can only give a new order to the most recently animated one.

It could be a problem though to have too many guard an area. Any suggestions?

[Debihuman]

Maybe you could treat them as a swarm (A swarm is technically 300 Tiny creatures).

You can only control one andead at a time, how does this work with Command Undead in Pathfinder? It strike me that you wouldn't be able to command the andead as normal undeaad and perhaps you you'd have to command each one separately. That would take a lot of rounds to do. I recommend that since each andead is 1/8th of a HD, you could command 8 per HD.

In 3.5: "T"he cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level."

At 5th level, the most andead that you can command is 40. Theoretically, you'd have to be 8th level before you could command 300 of them.

Debby

[drack]

How about being able to command one/CL and them lasting forever, and extras being uncommanded in the usual way in which they try to bite your face off. your level one gets a cool trick to make one, and the following out the last order is constructs, not undeads anyways.

And yeah I know there are a few drawbacks, but to give a more realistic version of the above it would be "protect", and to simplify matters they would probably be attached as globs onto each of the 25 wolves so that the caster could duck out of sight without being a carpet of rats. :smalltongue:

[Debihuman]

Luckily Jim has never liked being far from his undeads and thinks mean people that hurt him should die, so he spends his next 8370 gold animating 837 little undeads and making a death horde always crawling about him with a nice readied action on all of them to each deal one damage whenever anything hits him. Luckily this is nothing compared to the 5000 damage/round that anyone attacking his 10th level elder brother would take

You do realize it takes you 23 hours to animate 837 if you did absolutely nothing else. Since it only takes two hit points of damage to kill one, what happens if one of 'em gets killed prematurely such as it gets bit by an animal. Cuz dogs love bones and aren't smart enough not to play with an animated rat skeleton. Chomp. If you are in the thick of it, you go down with them....

Debby

[drack]

What's a day or two for hundreds of undeads? :smallconfused: similarly that's jut one more dog corpse to stash or later, and at the cost of one rat...

[kinem]

I think I figured out what I should do: Make a short list of commands, which are the only ones they can follow. Ex. Guard this place; go there; follow me; guard me here (won't follow); attack him.

I should also figure the swarm statistics and see how that works out.

[Debihuman]

It's not just one day. It's one day of every round doing it. No sleep either. No eating. No anything else. So, I doubt you'd ever really get the maximum number because you'd have assume nothing happened to any of them. So if your last command is to guard something and attack, wouldn't ones you lost control over attack the others? That would be amusing to say the least.

Debby

[drack]

So send those hundreds to defend a place and run through them as you retreat. :smalltongue: It's a touch silly either way as long as you can get hundreds.
Edit: yeah, as I said a day or two. one if you don't need sleep, two if you do. :smallcool:

[Debihuman]

Making a swarm is fairly simple just follow the Swarm directions.

See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype.

I'm no sure how it differs from Pathfinder.

A normal rat swarm has 4 HD.

Debby

[drack]

Yet there is a difference between a swarm (commanded as a whole, and when damaged enough breaks up and you loose control) and a swarm (controlled individually attacking as hundreds of creatures perhaps using aid another mechanics to boost attacks, and fighting until they have made an attack to destroy every last rat) :smallwink:

[kinem]

I made the following changes:

The andead will obey the caster's commands but there are only a small number of commands that the andead is able to understand and obey:

Guard this place (attack all but me who enter); go there; follow me; guard me here (attack any who attack me; the andead won't follow and guard under the same command); attack that creature.

Newly created andead by the same caster will not draw attacks by existing andead who are set to guard a place.

It only obeys the last command given.

Also, if too many andead are close together, the magics will tend to interfere with each other. If more than 10 andead are within a 10' radius, then some of the spells will be dispelled (choose randomly) until there are no more than 10 left.

[drack]

Sounds better, though being as accustomed to powergamers as I am I'd still suggest capping the max someone can have following their commands, or have them defend against the caster too if they get too many. After all this just means that they nee to space them out, not that they can't keep a thousand in one tunnel. :smalltongue:

[Debihuman]

If they randomly dispell,you can't make a swarm (you need 300 not 10)

Debby

[drack]

so long as you release them and set them to guard they're no longer sustained by the spell, they just become normal undeads. :smalltongue:

[Debihuman]

This is why you cannot have a swarm of them: "Also, if too many andead are close together, the magics will tend to interfere with each other. If more than 10 andead are within a 10' radius, then some of the spells will be dispelled (choose randomly) until there are no more than 10 left."

A swarm is treated as a single creature and takes up one square so they'd be in too close proximity to maintain as a swarm since there would only be 10 left in the square as the other randomly dispelled and became dead not undead.

"Unlike animate dead, this spell is an ongoing effect and can be dispelled, which kills the andead but leaves the body intact and able to be re-animated."

A dispelled andead is a dead lifeless creature though you could animate it again.

Debby

[drack]

It seems you mistook my meaning in the last one
This is why you cannot have a swarm of them: "Also, if too many andead are close together, the magics will tend to interfere with each other. If more than 10 andead are within a 10' radius, then some of the spells will be dispelled (choose randomly) until there are no more than 10 left."Ys that was added after the mention of the warm to which I mentioned that you could still have that many undeads in a tunnel and till pull the same stuff with them...

A swarm is treated as a single creature and takes up one square so they'd be in too close proximity to maintain as a swarm since there would only be 10 left in the square as the other randomly dispelled and became dead not undead.

"Unlike animate dead, this spell is an ongoing effect and can be dispelled, which kills the andead but leaves the body intact and able to be re-animated." Yes, and as soon as you make the second, the first is no longer subject to the ongoing effect, but instead a normal uncontrolled undead, meaning it's not subject to dispellng anymore

A dispelled andead is a dead lifeless creature though you could animate it again.

Debby

[kinem]

If they randomly dispell,you can't make a swarm (you need 300 not 10)

Debby

That's right. I decided against the swarm idea; too powerful for the spell.

[Debihuman]

It seems you mistook my meaning in the last one
I did not misunderstand you. You seem to be of the opinion that you can command them to do things that they are incapable of doing.

They cannot be in close proximity to one another so you cannot use a lot of them to pull anything of weight. At most, you can have 4 in a square and so you have 2 squares with 8 and 2 more in another square an none within 10 feet of any them or they'd risk being dispelled.

These are Tiny Undead with Str of 4 which means a maximum load for one of these is 20 pounds and while doing this can only move 5 feet while carrying that much weight. This is not exactly useful.

What good is having a 1,000 andead in a tunnel? It's not like they are difficult to avoid since they can only move 15 feet a round and cannot attack in the same round that they move. Plus it's not like they can all get close to you at once without becoming dispelled and turning into a dead rat.

So you pick one up, put it in a cage or backpack, and carry it with you. You dispel any of the undead that get within 10 feet of it (and you since you are carrying it), turning them into dead rats.

If the andead you're carrying gets dispelled, you drop the dead rat, pick up the nearest anded, and put it in your cage or backpack. Lather, rinse, repeat until you get to the end of the tunnel. Presumably there are 10 remaining andead that survived the experience plus the one you are carrying. You can attempt to dispel the rest or just fight them.

Odds of getting bitten are low since they have -1 melee attack and have to beat your AC. Even if it does bite, unless it rolls a critical hit it does 1 point of damage. 4 PCs at levels one should have no problem with this scenario.

So you gain 50.000 xp for killing 1,000 andead in one tunnel. Congrats. Explain to me how that isn't horribly broken?

Debby

[drack]

I had not thought to exploit that bit, but yes it's useful too. :smalltongue: No I was referring to that the primary balancing bit to necromancy is the HD cap of those you can influence the behavior of. There are countless ways to drop the cost of making them (not that it' usually worth it), but you'll rarely command more than another player of the same level could destroy, getting your thousand rats and using them as buffers to slow the opponents/absorb the damage that they could do to you while you rain fire on them in a manner of your choosing is the broken bit... :smalltongue:

[Debihuman]

I had not thought to exploit that bit, but yes it's useful too. :smalltongue: No I was referring to that the primary balancing bit to necromancy is the HD cap of those you can influence the behavior of. There are countless ways to drop the cost of making them (not that it' usually worth it), but you'll rarely command more than another player of the same level could destroy, getting your thousand rats and using them as buffers to slow the opponents/absorb the damage that they could do to you while you rain fire on them in a manner of your choosing is the broken bit... :smalltongue:

It's not worth making 1,000 since it is no cost to destroy them. Opponents could use use the andead that are already there against each other. It might slow opponents down but at low levels, the odds are the PCs would benefit more from the xp of andead than they would would from the xp of their maker.

I don't see andead slowing the PCs down very much at all. They'd spend a couple of hours at most dealing with the andead at most. 4 PCs can kill andead faster than an NPC can make them.

Debby

[drack]

And in a few hours how many PCs/NPCs can you kill if they're busy working their way over to you? :smallconfused:

[Debihuman]

At low level not many. NPCs can be tough, even a TPK. Andead with their puny hit points, speed, and size are not quite lame ducks but pretty close.

Debby

[drack]

In a few hours were you shooting arrows around the corner how many PC or guards could die was they attempt to cut through 1000 undeads. this gives you ~1000 attacks, allowing 50 auto-hits alone. An alternate if they have ranged attacks is to get some flying blokes and make them zombies around the corner, have them fly over your swarms to engage as you hide. That way you can replace your horde as they hack and get plenty more on the field. My overall point being that a thousand undeads of any sort is still quite a thing to have. :smalltongue:

[DracoDei]

Yet there is a difference between a swarm (commanded as a whole, and when damaged enough breaks up and you loose control) and a swarm (controlled individually attacking as hundreds of creatures perhaps using aid another mechanics to boost attacks, and fighting until they have made an attack to destroy every last rat) :smallwink:
Maybe sounds like a job for the homebrew Mob and Unit templates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179) (Not by me).

You wouldn't have that level of control over them. You could say "follow me and attack anyone who attacks me" and then it would not follow you, because it obeys only the last order, the one after the 'and'. And of course you can only give a new order to the most recently animated one.

It could be a problem though to have too many guard an area. Any suggestions?
That is a very strict definition of "last order" and should be spelled out.

How about being able to command one/CL and them lasting forever, and extras being uncommanded in the usual way in which they try to bite your face off. your level one gets a cool trick to make one, and the following out the last order is constructs, not undeads anyways.

1/level commanded and 3/level in existence? I don't think the instant long-range communication thing is much of a problem since even using morse code (actually you can get quite advanced with it depending on how good of time-keeping devices you have) the data rate is still not very good. I guess at the social rather than adventuring party level is helps a good bit.


Wikipedia-like cross-indexing of some of my undead, many of which are good to turn animals into (if only because it is low-key):

Sinister Spinal Cord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199098): Paralysis followed by it wrapping around the victim's throat to attempt a slow strangulation.

Zooming Brain: Fly past on barely controlled course damaging all mental abilities for a brief duration.

Fat Glob: Slow, weak, but LOTS of HD, and a fatigue effect if it hits.

Rolling Eyeball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6178899#post6178899): Scouts, spies, and roving patrols. Zero offensive capabilities unless taken from something with a gaze attack or eye-rays.

Floating Lungs: (based around the Shout spell). Feel free to suggest a better name...

Hopping Stomach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3301315): Spits acid. (Note to self: Remake this thread so I can add Acid Splash as an option for sufficiently small ones).

Gut Snake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3295643&postcount=8): Undead intestines that fight with constriction, filth, and odor. Comment HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26636&page=16).

Empty Skin: Macabre, but not always aggressive. Freak your characters/players out without a single die rolled... Intelligent servants for the necromancer just starting to come into his true power.

Dark Hearts: Literally pulsing with negative energy these repair the undead near them, and damage the living.


Corpse Ripper: A spell that simplifies the creation of these.

[drack]

Maybe sounds like a job for the homebrew Mob and Unit templates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179) (Not by me).


1/level commanded and 3/level in existence? I don't think the instant long-range communication thing is much of a problem since even using morse code (actually you can get quite advanced with it depending on how good of time-keeping devices you have) the data rate is still not very good. I guess at the social rather than adventuring party level is helps a good bit.


Wikipedia-like cross-indexing of some of my undead, many of which are good to turn animals into (if only because it is low-key):

Sinister Spinal Cord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199098): Paralysis followed by it wrapping around the victim's throat to attempt a slow strangulation.

Zooming Brain: Fly past on barely controlled course damaging all mental abilities for a brief duration.

Fat Glob: Slow, weak, but LOTS of HD, and a fatigue effect if it hits.

Rolling Eyeball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6178899#post6178899): Scouts, spies, and roving patrols. Zero offensive capabilities unless taken from something with a gaze attack or eye-rays.

Floating Lungs: (based around the Shout spell). Feel free to suggest a better name...

Hopping Stomach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3301315): Spits acid. (Note to self: Remake this thread so I can add Acid Splash as an option for sufficiently small ones).

Gut Snake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3295643&postcount=8): Undead intestines that fight with constriction, filth, and odor. Comment HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26636&page=16).

Empty Skin: Macabre, but not always aggressive. Freak your characters/players out without a single die rolled... Intelligent servants for the necromancer just starting to come into his true power.

Dark Hearts: Literally pulsing with negative energy these repair the undead near them, and damage the living.


Corpse Ripper: A spell that simplifies the creation of these.


Units/mobs: Unit systems would help them, but aren't required

1/CL//3/CL: that would work too, though I'd caution against giving a necromancer too many such spells least they rack up as many undeads through simply using plenty of spell each with their own cap. Still as a DM I wouldn't be opposed to a few of these floating around.

Undead list: Ooh, these are pretty good, may be tempted to use them. Still they're a bit beyond this spell in terms of strength (well, some of them :smalltongue:). Anywho I think there was a necromancy homebrew indexing thread going around if you're interested... ah, here it was http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14469008#post14469008

[kinem]

drack, note that they only can follow a few listed specific kinds of orders, only one order at a time. Also, only the most recently created one can be given a new order. I don't think it'll be a problem.

It's a 0 level spell. It's not meant to be super powerful. It's meant to be flavorful and just useful enough to be worth dabbling in.

Maybe the given CR is too high. I see some monsters have a CR of 1/10, so I'll reduce it to that. That also makes 10 of them EL 1.

[drack]

Nah, I'm saying that the one order that you can leave uncontrolled with is the only potentially broken part, and I've been giving examples of why. :smalltongue:

[kinem]

drak, if uncontrolled, the only way they'll ever attack is if the last order was either "Guard me here" or "Guard this place". In neither case will they do the sorts of things you've been talking about. Also, if more than 10 get within 10' of each other the spells will start dispelling until there are only 10.

It's true that there could be a long series of rooms or areas (each at least 10' wide) which each have 10 of them in it. Maybe it could be done in a long cave. If you have 100 such areas for 1000 andead, animating them all would cost 10,000 gp, and only the caster could pass through without being attacked. If you have zombies fly over them, they are equally likely to try to climb up and attack the zombies as they are to attack anyone hacking them. A single animated skeleton could kill them all without taking damage, thanks to its DR. Honestly, if you could pull it off as a fortified tunnel, as much trouble as it would be, I'd say you deserve to be able to do it.

[drack]

I mentioned using flying undeads or arrows to shoot back for that purpose, but oh well, it seem you will hear my words as you choose to hear them, though mayhaps I will try once more

1) make your undead in a tunnel spacing them 10/10'
2) lure enemy (for instance in a PVP game just ay "hi, I'm gonna kill you" and run
3) shoot arrows, cast spells at them if you can over your hordes without being caught
4) if they have long range stuff hunker down with some big flying creature corpses, make zombies, and send them over your minions. the bigger zombies will be able to do actual damage, and you'll have won simply because you have infinate HD of uncommanded undead that you have commanded

Now I was pointing out the one way the spell might be seriously exploited short of the xp gambit, whether you choose to take it or leave it is your call, my point was more that even were I running an epic tristalted game I would not allow such a spell because there will be people who will exploit it in such a manner. that and I was calling it a cool spell which naturally was the part that went unheard. :smallconfused:
3)

[kinem]

That wouldn't work. If it's one long tunnel, they'd all move to attack the enemy, end up near each other and get dispelled.

Also, if this is mid-level (and I assume it would be; a 1st level caster couldn't afford to do it) then a lightning bolt down the tunnel would be a good exterminator's tool.

I'm not saying they couldn't be used at all for defending a tunnel. I just don't think the bang for the buck is excessive.

Even if it worked, how would it be any better than having a deep pit in the tunnel and a fly spell to get over it?

drack, if you still think it needs work, how about making an actual suggestion to balance it without allowing instant communication?

If you said it's cool, well thanks :smallsmile:, though you mainly said other things.

[drack]

they are each guarding a 10' space so that they cannot move up to each other

A lightening bolt may, though it'll only go a short ways leaving plenty more and leaving you on lightening bolt less


"Even if it worked, how would it be any better than having a deep pit in the tunnel and a fly spell to get over it?"
Because I pass through my own undeads faster then my enemies do. :smallwink:

drack, if you still think it needs work, how about making an actual suggestion to balance it without allowing instant communication?

If you said it's cool, well thanks :smallsmile:, though you mainly said other things.

Other things were the parts that others were talking to me about, thus I replied. :smallconfused:

my second post:
How about being able to command one/CL and them lasting forever, and extras being uncommanded in the usual way in which they try to bite your face off. your level one gets a cool trick to make one, and the following out the last order is constructs, not undeads anyways.

the first reply to it:

1/level commanded and 3/level in existence? I don't think the instant long-range communication thing is much of a problem since even using morse code (actually you can get quite advanced with it depending on how good of time-keeping devices you have) the data rate is still not very good. I guess at the social rather than adventuring party level is helps a good bit.

My reply to that:
1/CL//3/CL: that would work too, though I'd caution against giving a necromancer too many such spells least they rack up as many undeads through simply using plenty of spell each with their own cap. Still as a DM I wouldn't be opposed to a few of these floating around.

[kinem]

drack, you said 10/10'. So now it's 1 per 10'? OK.

How long is the tunnel? If the caster is shooting arrows down it, it can't be much more than 500' long, so that's 50 andead. I guess it could be longer if he retreats as his enemies approach, but then they don't have to follow.

In any case, guarding an area wouldn't work that way. They would attack based on line of sight, not staying in their 10' area. I should make that clear so your feedback did help show the need to clarify it.

If the tunnel isn't straight and contains a lot of blind turns, many andead could still hinder a pursuit, but the same could be accomplished in other ways.

Being uncommanded = behavior change would allow instant communication, which I specified to avoid.

I'll change it a bit. How's this:

The andead will obey the caster's commands but there are only a small number of commands that the andead is able to understand and obey:

- Guard this place:
Attack all creatures within line of sight other than the caster or specific andead created by the same caster within sight or in sight when the order is given, up to a maximum total of 9 other andead. If more andead are in sight, they will not be able to keep track and will attack each other. If a creature to be attacked passes through the area, the andead will follow it and try to catch and attack it, though they will change targets randomly if additional targets are within sight.

- go there; follow me; guard me here (attack any who attack me; the andead won't follow and guard under the same command); attack that creature.

[drack]

That would work. :smallbiggrin:

[kinem]

OK, thanks.