What are the replacements for a Cleric in a Tier 3- game?

[INoKnowNames]

Wizards have the specialist grade classes, the Dread Necromancer, Warmage, and Beguiler. Covers most everything other than Conjuration and Transmutation based casters, which isn't the world's biggest loss. Druids have Wild Shape Ranger, which covers it pretty darn well.

I know Paladin is probably the answer to a Melee Cleric, and maybe Healer (with some leniency to a supportive spell list) for a Supportive Cleric, are there any other options for a lower tier Clericish character?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) , Adept, Crusader, even Healer if you get lots of prestige classes. You could also grab Divine Crusader with the Healing domain on just about anything.

[Diovid]

Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) with one or more of the following variants:

Healing Hymn (Complete Champion), Hymn of Fortification (Complete Champion), Inspire Turning (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), Repel Domination (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), Undead Bardic Knowledge (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft).

[Lord_Gareth]

Factotum, maybe?

[Gavinfoxx]

Shaman, Shugenja, maybe Ardent, Nightstalker.

[Darth Stabber]

Factotum/chameleon can cover it pretty well.

Crusader is a better melee cleric stand in than paladin, even without having actual spells. Just be prepared to spend some build resources on UMD.

Binder can heal fairly well.

Dread Necromancer in a party full of undead, or characters with tomb tainted soul.

Swordsage/shadowsun ninja in a party with at least one undead or tomb tainted member and one untainted member.

If you actually need serious in combat heals, only healer really qualifies, with crusader kinda working, but if you just need out of combat restoration the above works.

[Draz74]

Vitalist, if you don't mind adapting Pathfinder material. (Caveat: it's not fully detailed on d20pfsrd.com yet. :smallannoyed:)

Gimping a higher-tier class is probably the most common solution. Ardent, Egoist Psion (either of which can add the Sangehirn healing-focused PrC), and Favored Soul are all a little easier to "gimp" down to Tier 3 than Cleric or Druid is.

Incarnate has some cool healer-type tricks, but overall it's not a great Cleric substitute on its own. Usually, it ends up being a dip in some other class or something, like my build here:
1. Egoist 1 - Azure Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, Shape Soulmeld (lifebond vestments) - (Attraction →) Inertial Armor, Energy Ray, Vigor
2. Incarnate (good) 1
3. Egoist 2 - Psicrystal Affinity - Call to Mind, Detect Psionics
4. Egoist 3 - Ego Whip, Share Pain
5. Egoist 4 - Detect Hostile Intent, (Empathic Transfer →) Psychoportive Shelter
6. Egoist 5 - (True Healer); Share Soulmeld - Body Purification, Dispel Psionics
7. Egoist 6 - Serenity, (Body Adjustment →) Zone of Alertness
8. Egoist 7 - Psionic Open Chakra, Psychic Reformation
9. Crusader 1 - Psicrystal Containment - Iron Guard's Glare; Douse the Flames, White Raven Tactics, Shield Block, Revitalizing Strike, Foehammer
10. Soul Manifester 1 - (Energy Adaptation →) Planar Apotheosis, Psionic Divination
11. Soul Manifester 2 - Psionic Plane Shift, Psionic Revivify
12. Soul Manifester 3 - Practiced Manifester - Celestial Conduit, Psionic True Seeing
13. Soul Manifester 4 - Psionic Restoration
14. Soul Manifester 5 - Mend Wounds, Hustle
15. Soul Manifester 6 - Expanded Knowledge - Energy Conversion, Metaphysical Weapon
16. Soul Manifester 7 - Adapt Body, Stygian Ward
17. Soul Manifester 8 - Psionic Mind Blank
18. Soul Manifester 9 - Midnight Augmentation - Bend Reality, Psionic Greater Teleport
19. Soul Manifester 10 - True Metabolism
20. Egoist 8 - Greater Metamorphosis, Stygian Conflagration


Dragon Shaman can be a low-Tier-4 version of the Cleric.


If you actually need serious in combat heals, only healer really qualifies, with crusader kinda working, but if you just need out of combat restoration the above works.

Unfortunately, there's a lot more to out-of-combat restoration than just Hit Point healing. Most or all of your suggestions besides Healer (and, to some extent, most of my suggestions too) are missing some of the Cleric's flexibility in removing various status conditions or afflictions. :smallfrown:

[Darth Stabber]

Dragon Shaman can be a low-Tier-4 version of the Cleric.



Unfortunately, there's a lot more to out-of-combat restoration than just Hit Point healing. Most or all of your suggestions besides Healer (and, to some extent, most of my suggestions too) are missing some of the Cleric's flexibility in removing various status conditions or afflictions. :smallfrown:

Forgot about dragon shaman, yeah, it can cover a lot of bases (poorly).

Ultimately things that aren't HP can be covered by UMD + wands/scrolls adequately. Most are available as bard spells, and many can also be covered by factotum, not as well as cleric or healer, but healer sucks at everything else (until it gets gate), and we are assuming cleric is banned.

[Draz74]

That reminds me. Does Healer get access to the Align Weapon spell?

This spell is about the only non-terrible means of overcoming alignment-based Damage Reduction at the levels that it starts to show up significantly. (There are CR 9 nasties with DR 10/chaotic and 10/lawful in the Monster Manual.) And unfortunately I haven't figured out any way to access it besides the Cleric spell list (and/or UMD).

[JellyPooga]

I know it uses the Druid spell list, but the Spirit Shaman covers the "anti-undead" role pretty well...at least for incorporeals.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I know it uses the Druid spell list, but the Spirit Shaman covers the "anti-undead" role pretty well...at least for incorporeals.

Casting from the Druid list gets you Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a), which is better at fighting off undead than most Clerics who prestige. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend and put Unguent of Timelessness on your spell foci so it lasts 365 times longer, or a little over five days per caster level. The unguent never wears off and they can be reused indefinitely.

Then there's Moon Bolt, which can easily trivialize vampire encounters.

[Darth Stabber]

That reminds me. Does Healer get access to the Align Weapon spell?

This spell is about the only non-terrible means of overcoming alignment-based Damage Reduction at the levels that it starts to show up significantly. (There are CR 9 nasties with DR 10/chaotic and 10/lawful in the Monster Manual.) And unfortunately I haven't figured out any way to access it besides the Cleric spell list (and/or UMD).

To my knowledge they do not (though I don't own the book). But there is a non-terrible way of overcoming the DR: mountain hammer.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That reminds me. Does Healer get access to the Align Weapon spell?

This spell is about the only non-terrible means of overcoming alignment-based Damage Reduction at the levels that it starts to show up significantly. (There are CR 9 nasties with DR 10/chaotic and 10/lawful in the Monster Manual.) And unfortunately I haven't figured out any way to access it besides the Cleric spell list (and/or UMD).

Stone Power/Shards of Granite bypasses ALL forms of DR.

To the OP, what are you trying to 'replace', exactly? One of the problems with Cleric is they are pretty much a 'do anything you want and get away with it' class. There are few classes that can do all the things that a Cleric can do, hence why it is listed as a Tier 1 class.

The Healer gets monumentally better when you use Spontaneous Divine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant, then pick up the PrC Sovereign Speaker from Faiths of Ebberon to pick up domains to cover the rest of your bases. Since you get all of your domain spells with Spontaneous Divine, and Sovereign Speaker is pretty much dedicated to getting a boatload of domains, you end up with a solid 'spells known' list.

[TaiLiu]

If you actually need serious in combat heals, only healer really qualifies...

Shugenja can work well as an in-combat healer.

[Darth Stabber]

Shugenja can work well as an in-combat healer.

I keep forgetting about shugenja, but that class hovers the line very closely between 2 and 3.

[Fable Wright]

Adepts, on their own, are a low tier 4. Eberron lets them add a Domain to their spell list, making them a decent enough class; it's certainly a low-power option, but it's there. They've got decent SoS/SoD spells, decent blasting, and decent buffs; they're in tier 4 because they have a lot of versatility in what they can do, but not a lot of raw power. In other words, they're in there for the same reason as the unmodified Ranger. Add in a few feats and a solid domain/prestige class, though, and I think that they could be optimized into moderately strong characters.

On the other hand, Divine Bards are solid party buffers and support, have good healing abilities, and fit the support role really well, even if they aren't much like Clerics. With the variants mentioned higher up, though, and fluffing their performing as hymns for Perform (Singing), or inspirational sermons for Perform (Oratory), and they would fit really well. They're more like Favored Souls than Clerics off the bat, though.

Personally, I distrust Healer. Even if you remove Gate from the list, when you start adding on domains, the amount of broken spells added to the list increases dramatically. Similarly, I distrust any class that can get 9th level spells, including the specialist casters, because runestaffs and Arcane Disciple exists to add in the option to use a number of broken 9th-level spells. I much prefer Factotum as the Wizard substitute, as it can get up to 7th level spells, which is higher than any other class without 9th level spells. It also requires less bookwork, lets wizards be more adventure-y and embrace mundane solutions, like the archetypal fantasy wizard.

[Draz74]

To my knowledge they do not (though I don't own the book). But there is a non-terrible way of overcoming the DR: mountain hammer.


Stone Power/Shards of Granite bypasses ALL forms of DR.
You guys are right, these are important options that I was momentarily forgetting. I'm still not quite comfortable with them as the only means for a party to be able to overcome alignment-DR at certain levels, though.

Tome of Battle shouldn't be the only way to make viable melee at low-mid levels. A Horizon Tripper build, for example, is hosed without a Cleric to cast Align Weapon on him. (Yeah, getting a 3000-gp item to learn Mountain Hammer is a reasonably flexible investment ... but that only works 1/encounter, which isn't enough against a Slaad or Inevitable with DR 10/alignment and fast healing.)

And even my ToB characters usually don't have space in their build for Shards of Granite, even if they aren't traveling with a Cleric in the party.

And then there's archers. :smallsigh:


Personally, I distrust Healer. Even if you remove Gate from the list, when you start adding on domains, the amount of broken spells added to the list increases dramatically. Similarly, I distrust any class that can get 9th level spells, including the specialist casters, because runestaffs and Arcane Disciple exists to add in the option to use a number of broken 9th-level spells. I much prefer Factotum as the Wizard substitute, as it can get up to 7th level spells, which is higher than any other class without 9th level spells. It also requires less bookwork, lets wizards be more adventure-y and embrace mundane solutions, like the archetypal fantasy wizard.

Whoa, I'm not the only one who has advocated re-fluffed Factotums as Wizard substitutes? :smalleek:

Unfortunately it's not a substitution that works well at low levels. Especially Levels 1-2.

[Fyermind]

My solution is sharing the burden. A team including a Bard and a Crusader has in combat healing, access to UMD, buffing, and some spells on the bard list that remove negative effects.

The biggest hardship to me losing cleric is that one level dip for knowledge devotion, travel devotion, extra turning, and turn undead. I think that will be irreplaceable.

[Darth Stabber]

My solution is sharing the burden. A team including a Bard and a Crusader has in combat healing, access to UMD, buffing, and some spells on the bard list that remove negative effects.

The biggest hardship to me losing cleric is that one level dip for knowledge devotion, travel devotion, extra turning, and turn undead. I think that will be irreplaceable.

Turn undead is only useful for a narrow band of time in the early game, and even then rebuke is slightly better. Knowledge and travel devotions are effects that can be achieved by other means. And if you still want some rebuking, go with dread necromancer. It's tier 3, and if you can get the whole party to take tomb tainted soul, or become necropolitan, you have all the out of combat healing you can stand. And crusader healing affects undead normally since it's not positive energy. I am gming with a whole party that has the feat, and it works pretty well. And since I combine umd and upd the psion handles all the non-hp stuff with wands and scrolls. My tier rules are tier 3+ or lose enough caster levels to not get 9s with in 20 levels, which actually makes many partial progression prcs attractive.

[TuggyNE]

Turn undead is only useful for a narrow band of time in the early game, and even then rebuke is slightly better.

Somehow, I suspect he was referring to DMM, or possibly Devotion feat powering.

[Fyermind]

Somehow, I suspect he was referring to DMM, or possibly Devotion feat powering.

Specifically to powering travel devotion. When I build archers, this almost always is one of their levels once they have their +6 BAB. (or earlier if I'm not using a full BAB base)

[Darth Stabber]

Specifically to powering travel devotion. When I build archers, this almost always is one of their levels once they have their +6 BAB. (or earlier if I'm not using a full BAB base)

Hustle. Gives you a move action for 3pp. It's on the psywar list.

[Fable Wright]

Whoa, I'm not the only one who has advocated re-fluffed Factotums as Wizard substitutes? :smalleek:

Unfortunately it's not a substitution that works well at low levels. Especially Levels 1-2.
Startling... I thought I was the only one. :smalleek:

And it works beautifully at low levels; beginning apprentices start with no magic, and have to scrape by on their wits alone, working hard to even learn a single cantrip. Since when could apprentices shoot cones of fire out of their hands, anyways? Does a knight taking a level in wizard and suddenly developing the power to shoot fire out of his hands make sense? You've got to work at it.

Sure, you don't feel much like a Wizard when you start out... but since when have apprentices ever had?

[akahdrin]

Ranger, Paladin, Bard, Rogue...anyone who you can cast cure or use magic device can use the wand just fine. If you have to heal mid fight, you've already lost =p

Any person not actively disabling or dealing damage is not useful in the group. You will always win more fights by just plowing through them and healing in downtime.

Having a cleric or anyone else early game isn't exactly good healing anyways. Limited by spells per day and the amount you heal is minor. Have everyone pitch in after the first little adventure and buy 50 charges of cure light wounds and you have 20-25 days of a low level cleric casting spells.

If it's later in the game and you're getting damage, that's the least of your concerns, real threats don't deal damage to you, but leave you disabled.

[dspeyer]

Favored soul with a sacred vow to never hurt anyone? Just healing, buffing and utility from a limited list.

Or there's homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168918)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm working on a homebrew class which is a 1.2 BAB divine casting class that uses the Shadowcaster template for their 'casting'. The mechanic of breaking down various domains into bite-sized chunks is taking me longer than anticipated, and I've been rather distracted with writing material for the FTB Wiki lately, but I haven't forgotten about it yet.

Basically, the class is designed to be initially modular, the deity you choose to follow will determine a large portion of your class abilities as well as which domain-fragment-thingies you have access to. A priest of a hippy-esque deity of sunshine and rainbows might have access to healing and maybe even some buffing, but probably not going to be tossing around death effects any time soon.

Unlike the 'cleric', this class does NOT have a 'cause-based' version. You follow a deity, that's where you get your powers from. Piss it off, powers get turned off.

[Darth Stabber]

Favored soul with a sacred vow to never hurt anyone? Just healing, buffing and utility from a limited list.

Or there's homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168918)

If you are just going to nerf spell lists, you may as well let the tier2s back in. Favored sould is easily tier2, and nerfing it's spell list is the same as allowing sorcerer and nerfing it's spell list. Infact the same can be said of tier1s, but they can still throw some weird curveballs.

[dspeyer]

Yes. Most tier2s can be made tier3s by cutting their spell/power lists with a fairly blunt axe and making sure to block anything strictly game-breaking (dmm).

However, sorcerer will never be a good cleric replacement, no matter how much you nerf it. :-)

[JaronK]

I find the Crusader replaces the Cleric's role in many games quite nicely. But Divine Bard and even Factotum can basically get the job done too. Binders can actually do it as well, but usually not until they can bind Buer.

JaronK

[Draz74]

Since several people have been advocating Divine Bard (which is an option I like), I'll just point out that the Bard's in-combat healing abilities become much more feasible with the Healing Hymn ACF from Complete Champion. Mass Cure Light Wounds in particular becomes a power-spell.