REQUEST: The bane of dungeoneering, and how to avoid it

[_flint_]

A trend I have noticed in my DMs is that they seem to love dropping my above-average sized parties into into cramped, 5/10 foot coridoors.

As it stands right now, my main group has 5 melee only characters who clog up the hall in an attempt to all get a hit on anything that moves. On top of that, I can't do a damn thing because I play an archer and if i fire into combat, the DMPC throws a hissy fit. What ends up happening is i just give up and charge through to the back of the enemy swinging a scimitar simply because i can't do what i'm built to :smallfurious:

I am currently working on a backup character, and would like to be able to lessen to the problem rather than add to it. I am looking for builds that are useful at levels 2-3 but also viable late game. The problem to be that i have the potential to hurt someone if i happen to miss. I was thinking archivist, but am turned off by the high GP cost.

TL;DR: I am looking for a backup character in a party of 10, ECL 2-3. I need to be useful in the event that all of us are in the same 10 foot wide hallway during combat.

[Flickerdart]

Firing into melee is a -4 penalty if you want to avoid hitting friendlies, and can be negated entirely with the Precise Shot feat. So I'm not really sure what your DMPC is worried about...

As for positioning, someone with a reach weapon can attack through an ally's square, and a DC25 Tumble check allows you to tumble through an enemy's square.

[Deophaun]

On top of that, I can't do a damn thing because I play an archer and if i fire into combat, the DMPC throws a hissy fit.
Then kill the DMPC. Problem solved from your end.

But seriously, get with your other players, and then all of you gang up and kill the DMPC. What the heck is a DMPC doing there when you've got 10 party members?

[_flint_]

Firing into melee is a -4 penalty if you want to avoid hitting friendlies, and can be negated entirely with the Precise Shot feat. So I'm not really sure what your DMPC is worried about...

As for positioning, someone with a reach weapon can attack through an ally's square, and a DC25 Tumble check allows you to tumble through an enemy's square.

could i get the page number for that rule? I'm pretty sure my DM is doing something different from that. I've been taking the -4, so if that's true it would help things out

[Deophaun]

could i get the page number for that rule? I'm pretty sure my DM is doing something different from that. I've been taking the -4, so if that's true it would help things out
Page 140 in the PHB. Note: there is no rule that says you ever hit a friendly when firing into melee. The only time you risk hitting a friendly is if they are involved in a grapple.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going to agree that killing the DMPC should be the first thing on everyone's to-do list. There is never, ever a reason for a DMPC to exist in the first place, and in a party this size he's only going to make things worse for everyone.

If you must make a new character, I'd recommend some sort of spellcaster, probably a Bard focused on buffing the party (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284), particularly with Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830). A fairly standard build would be (Silverbrow) Human, Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8.

[_flint_]

I'm going to agree that killing the DMPC should be the first thing on everyone's to-do list. There is never, ever a reason for a DMPC to exist in the first place, and in a party this size he's only going to make things worse for everyone.

If you must make a new character, I'd recommend some sort of spellcaster, probably a Bard focused on buffing the party (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284), particularly with Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830). A fairly standard build would be (Silverbrow) Human, Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8.


Page 140 in the PHB. Note: there is no rule that says you ever hit a friendly when firing into melee. The only time you risk hitting a friendly is if they are involved in a grapple.

Thanks a lot to the both of you. Bard is fun, but so PHB1. Got anything more exotic?

[Lord_Gareth]

Beguiler is so PHB2 :p

[Flickerdart]

Beguiler is a great class, but its stealth skills are wasted when it's a member of a 10-man party stomping around. I'd recommend a wizard going into War Weaver instead - making single-target buffs multi-target and then casting them as a move action is something that is referred to in the wizarding word as "hella dope".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thanks a lot to the both of you. Bard is fun, but so PHB1. Got anything more exotic?

There's Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) , and then there's this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252815#4)....

But seriously, you'd be adding +4d6 fire damage to everyone's attacks at 3rd level, which goes up to +7d6 at 6th level and +9d6 at 8th level.

[dungeonnerd]

character thought: Ten party members is too many, you lose too much treasure.

Make an evil wizard/sorcerer. Plink away with magic missle (no miss chance when firing into melee) and buff the party until you hit level 5.

Then take fireball or lightning bolt.

Make sure you've got a good "bluff" skill and play the unknowing farmboy act. Wait until everyone is in melee. Fireball as many times as you can (bonus if you can get a metamagic rod of quicken for 2 in a round). That should take care of the enemies, the annoying DMPC, and most of the people stealing your treasure. Loot the bodies, move on to find a new group to run with. Repeat until rich.

Or build a character headed for levels in shadowdancer to get around the congestion and flank. Until then, you can always tumble through the enemy (DC25 isnt hard)

Another secondary character thought: play a character of whatever class that's basically a wealthy merchant. Refuse to fight, but take all the treasure to sell in your store (circumventing the 50% loss of price). Take 20-30% of the take for yourself, increasing the overall profit of the party from 50% to 70-80%. Bonus here if you are a wizard with only crafting feats and the related spells. Basically, you become indespensible because you provide them with more money and good weapon upgrades, and it's in their best interest to keep you alive, but you don't actually have to do anything in combat but watch disdainfully from a distance.

[Randomguy]

Another secondary character thought: play a character of whatever class that's basically a wealthy merchant. Refuse to fight, but take all the treasure to sell in your store (circumventing the 50% loss of price). Take 20-30% of the take for yourself, increasing the overall profit of the party from 50% to 70-80%. Bonus here if you are a wizard with only crafting feats and the related spells. Basically, you become indespensible because you provide them with more money and good weapon upgrades, and it's in their best interest to keep you alive, but you don't actually have to do anything in combat but watch disdainfully from a distance.

You mean an artificer?

[Flickerdart]

Another secondary character thought: play a character of whatever class that's basically a wealthy merchant. Refuse to fight, but take all the treasure to sell in your store (circumventing the 50% loss of price). Take 20-30% of the take for yourself, increasing the overall profit of the party from 50% to 70-80%. Bonus here if you are a wizard with only crafting feats and the related spells. Basically, you become indespensible because you provide them with more money and good weapon upgrades, and it's in their best interest to keep you alive, but you don't actually have to do anything in combat but watch disdainfully from a distance.
You have no guarantee anyone would want the treasure you find. It will sit in the store for weeks, months, or even years before it finds a buyer, since almost every magic item costs more than a house, and some eclipse the price of castles. While you are away, someone needs to take care of the rent, taxes, zoning permits, pay for shopkeepers, pay for guards to keep an eye on those shopkeepers, pay for accountants...ultimately, it's just a headache, and since your character doesn't contribute to combat, there's no reason to have him be in the dungeon itself as long as the party sends back "his" share. So such a character would not be present in the dungeon even if you could play one, because he'd be an NPC.

[_flint_]

character thought...

While i love the creative thinking, you have reminded me of some absurd restrictions i seem unable to escape:

-The characters cannot be evil
-We cannot be any creature that looks evil
-I'm playing with a tightly knit group of friends that get all betray-y feeling if you even cough in their direction
-They are all RAI inistead of RAW :smallyuk:
-I'm sure if i make a character that has any purpose other than in combat or roleplaying (such as making money) the DM will immediately adjust things so that it doesn't work/my fellow players would chastise me

Actually, I've discovered a third option: find a new gaming group

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, take the feat Mercantile Background (PGtF). If the party would sell junk loot for 50% of its value, buy it from the party for that price. You'll get a portion of that back when the cash gets split. Go sell that junk loot for 75% of its value. If your party of ten characters found 1,000 gp worth of junk loot, you would buy it for 500 gp, get 50 gp back when cash is split, and sell the junk loot for 750 gp. You pay 500 gp, you get back 800 gp, so when the rest of the party each gets 50 gp from that loot you'll be getting 300 gp from it, six times as much.

[dungeonnerd]

You have no guarantee anyone would want the treasure you find. It will sit in the store for weeks, months, or even years before it finds a buyer, since almost every magic item costs more than a house, and some eclipse the price of castles. While you are away, someone needs to take care of the rent, taxes, zoning permits, pay for shopkeepers, pay for guards to keep an eye on those shopkeepers, pay for accountants...ultimately, it's just a headache, and since your character doesn't contribute to combat, there's no reason to have him be in the dungeon itself as long as the party sends back "his" share. So such a character would not be present in the dungeon even if you could play one, because he'd be an NPC.

I've actually played the adventuring shopkeeper before - and while the problem with finding a buyer is accurate, the rest I found were easy enough to avoid or handle.

a) Pay for rent/employees/taxes - assuming that you're travelling back to town between dungeons to get new missions, easy enough. And if you aren't, then you have to hire an accountant until you have Word of Recall or a Teleport spell - but seriously, the expense for an accountant isn't very much.
b) pay for guards - immaterial; any city large enough to afford a magic shop should have guards. Alternatively, sign on as a fence for the Thieves Guild, get these for free (and probably out of some other costs).
c) zoing permits - again immaterial, unless you are trying to rezone an existing building away from it's express purpose.
d) "not contributing to combat" is /not/ the same as not contributing. Knock, fly, dispel, teleport, various buffs, etc. And, if nothing else, summon monster/undead for trap-sweeping.

Coming back to the issue of finding a buyer - most cities large enough to support a magic shop can afford magic items up to an equivilent price as +2. The guard and the adventurers guild will probably contract for the higher items (and if you give a modest discount, you'll end up with even more contacts to solve other issues). Really, it depends on /where/ you decide to establish this store - and generally, the bigger the town the better for you.

Of course, you could also spend the several weeks a year as a travelling caravan.

As for the "artificer" comment - I'm not familiar with that class, but if the shoe fits...

[EDIT] Also, if you take a profession (artist) or (sculptor) you can probably make minor improvements to the items, making them appear far more ornamental than they actually are, and allowing you to sell things to nobility that they wouldn't necessarily want otherwise - like the real-world wall-hanger weapons that were shoddily made but fetched staggering sums because of how pretty they were...

[Flickerdart]

Uh, you do realize that while you constantly pay your expenses, you get back funds intermittently - so you'll be losing money most of the time, while your WBL sits on a shelf doing nothing.

[dungeonnerd]

Uh, you do realize that while you constantly pay your expenses, you get back funds intermittently - so you'll be losing money most of the time, while your WBL sits on a shelf doing nothing.

Yes.

Again, it largely depends on /where/ your shop is. But it's possible to do - and a single moderate sale can pay expenses for the shop for a year, and if you do advertising (levels in bard, perhaps) you can drum up a good amount of business in a short amount of time. Tie in the fact that you're adventuring, and you can make business contacts in every town you visit. Eventually you can craft gates that teleport people between the towns, which you can charge per usage for, and convieniently they land right next to your shop. You've got social skills on that character sheet, put them to work!

He said he wanted something that is useful to the party and lessens the madness of combat. This does both. It's one character I've done, it works rather well, and it's fun. Is it optomized? probably not. Is it fun? To me, yes.

[Devas]

could i get the page number for that rule? I'm pretty sure my DM is doing something different from that. I've been taking the -4, so if that's true it would help things out

In this situation your target will also probably have soft cover from your allies being in the way (PH p.151), which adds +4 to its AC. Perhaps the GM is having you apply it as a penalty to your roll instead? You should definitely have him clarify that.


Page 140 in the PHB. Note: there is no rule that says you ever hit a friendly when firing into melee. The only time you risk hitting a friendly is if they are involved in a grapple.

This is true, unless the "Striking the Cover Instead of a Missed Target" variant rule (DMG p.24) is in effect, or it's a 3.0 campaign, where that was the default rule iirc.

[absolmorph]

Get a new DM.
Seriously.
Or, less drastic, talk to your DM and ask why the hell he's forcing 5 melee characters through 5-ft passages, and why he's having a DMPC yell at you for doing exactly what your character is supposed to do.
Because it doesn't seem like he's trying to make this anything but frustrating for the party.
That is, in the vernacular, "hella dumb".

If you're set on making a new character, I'm gonna second Flickerdart's suggestion of Wizard going into War Weaver. War Weaver is friggin' awesome.

[Fable Wright]

I'm just throwing ideas out here, but why not make a Totemist/Jaunter (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) build, going into Telflammer Shadowlord for use later on? Help your party's mobility problem by getting people where they need to go, and then later on you can Shadowpounce with a teleportation spell for each action on your turn. Given that, with the proper backstory (and being a Human with one flaw, or having two Flaws), you can be a Totemist 1/Jaunter 1, it's something to think about. If Flaws don't work, Psionic Warrior 1/Jaunter 1 does, but without retraining, it basically acts as a filler level that doesn't help much later on.

[Answerer]

If Flaws don't work, Psionic Warrior 1/Jaunter 1 does, but without retraining, it basically acts as a filler level that doesn't help much later on.
Eh, expansion would generally be quite useful for reach and damage, and if this corridor thing gets really bad... maybe reduction is warranted.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want something completely silly, make an overweight Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) with Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) and Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls). Standard action: manifest Expansion, increasing your weight by a factor of eight and putting you over 4,000 pounds. Move action: run 18 ft. up a wall and jump down onto as many as four opponents. You don't take any damage from the fall since you jumped down. Anyone you land on takes 20d6 damage per falling object rules (DMG p303), with no attack roll and no saving throw. Be sure you land on that DMPC as often as possible.

[Darrin]

I'd suggest taking a look at a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept. Take the Endure Exposure invocation to make sure everyone in the party is immune to your breath weapon, and then sit back behind the meatbags and breath a 30' line right through the front ranks. Add Entangling Exhalation for debuffing. If the DMPC gets too annoying, exclude him from the Endure Exposure treatment.

[Slipperychicken]

Kindly let the DMPC know to stop being such a whiny little snot, and let you do your job. You haven't hit an ally yet and never will, short of someone magically redirecting your arrows. Then proceed to do your job and be happy.

There ought to be rules for packing multiple characters into the same square. I suggest finding and using them, so your melee can be happy.

[Curmudgeon]

If you want something completely silly, make an overweight Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) with Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) and Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls). Standard action: manifest Expansion, increasing your weight by a factor of eight and putting you over 4,000 pounds. Move action: run 18 ft. up a wall and jump down onto as many as four opponents. You don't take any damage from the fall since you jumped down. Anyone you land on takes 20d6 damage per falling object rules (DMG p303), with no attack roll and no saving throw. Be sure you land on that DMPC as often as possible.
That's bogus, x2. You never hit anything in D&D without an attack roll, including a specific square on the ground, unless there's a statement to that effect (as there is in Magic Missile). And anyone can avoid damage from a falling object with a DC 15 Reflex save, no matter how large the falling object is (see Heroes of Battle, page 68).

[Vaz]

Shadow Jaunt and similar maneuvres; Teleport into Shadow; fire off a load of arrows. Find a Class with Hide in Plain Sight (the one which springs to mind is Ninja Spy 4 from OA who also provides several bonus like Sneak Attack, Poison Use, Evasion (helpful for when the DM puts a Line of avoiding-elemental-resistance dpwm said 5ft corridor), however I am sure there are plenty more classes with similar HiPS, or at least one earlier to get to (although you do also get free EWP Spiked Chain to gove you reach, trip etc allowong you to be ranged suppprt, melee support and an indirect ally buffer/enemy nerfer, giving you space to teleport away from Tripped Enemies, before unleashing your arrows into Proned enemies.

[Randomguy]

Maybe you should start giving some of your melee guys teleportation abilities, so instead of clogging up the hallway they teleport behind the enemy and flank them.

I know of 3 ways to get teleportation that can be used often enough for this: The fist way is to be a Horizon Walker and take the at will dimension door (every 1d4 rounds) ability. The second is through Blink Shirt, a soulmeld, which can be gotten from the Shape Soulmeld feat or through being a totemist.
The easist way is to get yourself Shadow Jaunt, which you can get through feats, swordsage levels or a Novice Shadow Hands of Shadow Jaunt (3000 gp) which let you teleport once an encounter.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't there an ACF that gives you burrow speed? I feel something like that could be useful in this case.

[Fable Wright]

Maybe you should start giving some of your melee guys teleportation abilities, so instead of clogging up the hallway they teleport behind the enemy and flank them.

I know of 3 ways to get teleportation that can be used often enough for this: The fist way is to be a Horizon Walker and take the at will dimension door (every 1d4 rounds) ability. The second is through Blink Shirt, a soulmeld, which can be gotten from the Shape Soulmeld feat or through being a totemist.
The easist way is to get yourself Shadow Jaunt, which you can get through feats, swordsage levels or a Novice Shadow Hands of Shadow Jaunt (3000 gp) which let you teleport once an encounter.
As I mentioned earlier, Jaunter is a prestige class that you can enter at level 2 that offers a good number of teleportation abilities each day. Carry around some unconscious mice, and you can teleport not only yourself, but your entire party around to make combat easier.

Isn't there an ACF that gives you burrow speed? I feel something like that could be useful in this case.
Underdark Knight, from Complete Champion grants Earthglide at high levels, and I think there was a Scout ACF that granted Climb speeds, but I can't think of any low level Burrow speed abilities.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Alter Self into a White Dragon Wyrmling will give you a Burrow Speed of 40 ft. for 10 minutes per level (you need some shenanigans to get the Dragon type;, but Dragonwrought Kobold or Essense of the Dragon spell will work perfectly) slap that into a Gish build.

1-Alter Self-> White Wyrmling
2-Burrow and move behind enemy lines
3-Tear faces
4-????
5-Profit.

[_flint_]

Alter Self into a White Dragon Wyrmling will give you a Burrow Speed of 40 ft. for 10 minutes per level (you need some shenanigans to get the Dragon type;, but Dragonwrought Kobold or Essense of the Dragon spell will work perfectly) slap that into a Gish build.

1-Alter Self-> White Wyrmling
2-Burrow and move behind enemy lines
3-Tear faces
4-????
5-Profit.


I'd suggest taking a look at a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept. Take the Endure Exposure invocation to make sure everyone in the party is immune to your breath weapon, and then sit back behind the meatbags and breath a 30' line right through the front ranks. Add Entangling Exhalation for debuffing. If the DMPC gets too annoying, exclude him from the Endure Exposure treatment.

I like both of these. Alternatively, i could be a druid and badger shape

[Deophaun]

I like both of these. Alternatively, i could be a druid and badger shape
Keep in mind, you cannot burrow through stone. What's your dungeon made out of? Probably stone...

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If you go Druid make sure to look at the rootwalker varient from dungonscape.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Crap Deophaun is right, you cannot tunnel through stone unless explicitly stated and none of the core dragons can, maybe there is another dragon that can; but I don't remember any of those, though once you get 5th level spells the Xorn's Movement spell gives you eartglide which is awesome.

[_flint_]

Crap Deophaun is right, you cannot tunnel through stone unless explicitly stated and none of the core dragons can, maybe there is another dragon that can; but I don't remember any of those, though once you get 5th level spells the Xorn's Movement spell gives you eartglide which is awesome.

I'm pretty sure the earth elemental progression from SS gives earthglide at 1st.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes; but SS savage progressions must be taken till the end before getting into another class, and they are usually pretty bad.

[_flint_]

Yes; but SS savage progressions must be taken till the end before getting into another class, and they are usually pretty bad.

yeah, very few are worth it. Earth elemental's one of the better ones. I might even be able to convince my DM to let me stop at 3rd level seeing as i will be equivalent to a small(tiny) elemental at that point.

[killem2]

1. The DMPC hate here is unwarranted and has no factual basis. While yes THIS DM is an idiot, not all of us are, please don't lump all the DMPC with that trash.

2. From the sounds of it, go deep into conjuration and summon all your own little nasties to the party before melee can get a chance :D

[_flint_]

1. The DMPC hate here is unwarranted and has no factual basis. While yes THIS DM is an idiot, not all of us are, please don't lump all the DMPC with that trash.

2. From the sounds of it, go deep into conjuration and summon all your own little nasties to the party before melee can get a chance :D

It's funny, I am actually doing a ranger "every animal companion possible" build. at around 15th level, combat will be hellish

[_flint_]

What kind of gimmicks can I do with hide in plain sight?

[Deophaun]

1. The DMPC hate here is unwarranted and has no factual basis.
A) It's a DMPC, so it is trash by definition, regardless of who's running it or how. B) It's a DMPC in a party of 10. C) It's a DMPC in a party of 10 in a dungeon full of narrow corridors. So yes, it is warranted.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What kind of gimmicks can I do with hide in plain sight?

1 level dip into shadowdancer
3 level dip into Umbral Disciple (MoI)
Dark template LA1 1(ToM or C:TTotW, second one being better since it is Su as opposed to Ex)
Shadow Template LA 2 (LoM)
1 level warlock dip with the feats instinctive darkness and blend into shadows (DotU).

[absolmorph]

A) It's a DMPC, so it is trash by definition, regardless of who's running it or how. B) It's a DMPC in a party of 10. C) It's a DMPC in a party of 10 in a dungeon full of narrow corridors. So yes, it is warranted.

A) No. This is a stupid assertion. Sometime DMs have a character in the party for a good reason and don't make things less fun for anyone.

B and C are valid points. But deciding that DMPCs are bad, no matter what, is a poor use of generalization. Saying "DMPCs are usually a bad idea and poorly implemented" might be more accurate.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you're all cramped in trying to raid the alien base, you're not using enough blaster bombs.

Wait, wrong game.

Hmmm...

If you're all cramped in trying to get through the dungeon, you're not using enough explosives.

[Deophaun]

A) No. This is a stupid assertion. Sometime DMs have a character in the party for a good reason and don't make things less fun for anyone.
There is no possible good reason. Any function a DMPC can perform can be performed by a companion PC in control of the players, except for railroading. And railroading is not a good reason.

[Acanous]

The only excuse I've had problems with arguing about DMPCs is that the DM wants to play, but nobody else is willing to DM. Ergo, he makes a DMPC.

Party of 10 though, come on, someone else cut this guy a break and take over, he's obviously frazzled.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's bogus, x2. You never hit anything in D&D without an attack roll, including a specific square on the ground, unless there's a statement to that effect (as there is in Magic Missile). And anyone can avoid damage from a falling object with a DC 15 Reflex save, no matter how large the falling object is (see Heroes of Battle, page 68).

You can move yourself into a square without making an attack roll, so no attack roll is ever required for it.

Heroes of Battle page 68: "The creature dropping an object makes a ranged attack roll against AC 5 to hit a square directly, applying any penalty for range increments... A creature can avoid damage from the attack by making a DC 15 Reflex save."

That creatures get a Reflex save to avoid the damage from an aerial bombardment attack is an exception to the general rule that falling objects automatically deal damage to anyone they come into contact with.

[Acanous]

in that case, wouldn't you still need a roll VS AC 5, granting them the DC 15 REF save?

I mean, at low levels and in tight quarters, it's still viable for a while. Plus it's really, really funny.

Hmmmm... Makes me wonder, actually. Can you take Ability Focus: Aerial Bombardment?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

in that case, wouldn't you still need a roll VS AC 5, granting them the DC 15 REF save?

I mean, at low levels and in tight quarters, it's still viable for a while. Plus it's really, really funny.

Hmmmm... Makes me wonder, actually. Can you take Ability Focus: Aerial Bombardment?

It's not an aerial bombardment, because that is limited to dropped objects. You are moving your own person onto your opponents from above, you do not need to make an attack roll to move yourself into a square, and since you're not dropping any objects they're not entitled to the aerial bombardment saving throw.

[Acanous]

It's not an aerial bombardment, because that is limited to dropped objects. You are moving your own person onto your opponents from above, you do not need to make an attack roll to move yourself into a square, and since you're not dropping any objects they're not entitled to the aerial bombardment saving throw.

By that logic, though, you're just moving yourself into an enemy square from above. They get an attack of opportunity, then the both of you count as squeezing, and neither of you take damage from the movement.

[Curmudgeon]

You can move yourself into a square without making an attack roll, so no attack roll is ever required for it.
Yes, you can do that -- if you have a movement mode (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_movementmodes&alpha=M) which allows you to do so. If you have a fly speed, you can move through the air under control. If gravity and wind are in control instead, you don't get to pick where you land; that's up to your DM. Of course, if you're moving you're required to follow the rules:
A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. So, absent some special ability which allows you to drop onto enemies for damage, that's disallowed by RAW.

[Darius Kane]

There is no possible good reason.
My personal experience (both as a player and as a DM) and most of the people I know tells me this is incorrect and a silly generalization.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

When you make a jump check you're intentionally causing yourself to land in a specific location. Jumping down is no exception, though it's a DC 15. So that replaces your attack roll.

I said you can run up the wall and jump down onto four opponents, not that you end your movement in their space(s).

[Deophaun]

My personal experience (both as a player and as a DM) and most of the people I know tells me this is incorrect and a silly generalization.
Running a DMPC is a lot like punching someone in the face. There are people who do, for whatever reason, like to be punched in the face, and they may even make a sport out of it. However, as soon as someone decides they don't want to be punched in the face anymore, the person hitting them has done something wrong.

People are free to make bad decisions. Doesn't make the bad decisions good.

[Darius Kane]

Look. I understand you might had some bad experiences with DMPCs, I had too. But that doesn't make all DMPCs bad. Insisting that it does is just silly and incorrect.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Imagine you're back in elementary school, and there's this kid in your class who's a spoiled brat who thinks he's better than everyone else. The teacher of your class is his mom, and his dad is the superintendent, so he always gets his way and never gets in trouble and nobody can ever do anything about him no matter how bad he gets. That kid is the DMPC, he's every DMPC that's ever existed or ever will exist. Sometimes he's not quite so bratty and patronizing, but being not as bad today is not the same as being not bad. DMPCs are always bad, even if they're sometimes not as bad.

[Darius Kane]

I see. The bias here is strong. I'm just going to say that you're wrong and leave it at that. Evidently arguing is pointless.

[Metahuman1]

Play a Higenyoki (Or however you spell the OA shifts into a certain animal race.) Sparrow person Warlock. Focus on Crafting and when in dungeons stay in sparrow form. Make sure you've got plenty of Dex, then Cha, then Con, and the Precise shot feat along with your crafting feats.

You'll deal steady untyped damage from a distance, and periodically add some Debuffs with the right invocations, and you'll save the party money. (I'd also get an Item Familiar for Extra XP to spend on crafting and buying off the +1 LA. ) They'll love you, and if the DMPC gives you crap, tell him fine, unless and until he shuts up, you won't make him nice things. If he still refuses, get the rest of the party to gang up on him since after all, your helping the congestion problem, debuffing enemy's, doing steady safe reliable ranged damage, and getting them nice weapons and armors and other items.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Imagine you're back in elementary school, and there's this kid in your class who's a spoiled brat who thinks he's better than everyone else. The teacher of your class is his mom, and his dad is the superintendent, so he always gets his way and never gets in trouble and nobody can ever do anything about him no matter how bad he gets. That kid is the DMPC, he's every DMPC that's ever existed or ever will exist. Sometimes he's not quite so bratty and patronizing, but being not as bad today is not the same as being not bad. DMPCs are always bad, even if they're sometimes not as bad.

Take the personalities out of that, both kid's and parents'. The parents aren't necessarily unfair, the kid isn't necessarily bratty (even if the parents are unfair. Like a healer who the monsters never target but is generally a good addition to the party). But when you have a ten-PC party? Yeah, then it becomes "hay guyz, chck out my kewl caricter!".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take the personalities out of that, both kid's and parents'. The parents aren't necessarily unfair, the kid isn't necessarily bratty (even if the parents are unfair. Like a healer who the monsters never target but is generally a good addition to the party). But when you have a ten-PC party? Yeah, then it becomes "hay guyz, chck out my kewl caricter!".

There's a big difference between an NPC that follows and helps the party and stays in the background, and a bossy DMPC who's always putting himself out in front to be seen and finding an excuse to yell at the other PCs for no good reason. An NPC who follows and helps the PCs while avoiding the spotlight is not a DMPC.

[gartius]

going back to the OP-what is the party tactics? just run up as soon as you see an enemy?

possibly start suggesting to the frontline fighters to start playing more tactically-start doing a slow retreat into a room with more space allowing your group to use the full force of your people. Get some reach weapons and line up so that everyone gets to use the full force of their weaponry and abilities. Form a bulkward -highest AC at the front and fight defensively to make it higher that way you make your job easier by a long way.

in regards to shooting in combat, if you are in the back and you are shooting with your allies in the way then you will have to deal with 2 lots of - 4 penalties, one for shooting into combat and one for dealing with cover as you are shooting through your enemies giving a total of -8. this is mitigated by precise shot (for shooting into combat) and improved precise shot (for getting rid of cover)

at lvl 2-3 you cannot do anything about cover so you will have to keep taking that -4, if the DMPC complains point out you are better with the bow and you take into account all variables to mitigate any worries so that you do not shoot them in the back (which there are no rules for) so the DMPC has no reason to complain.

in regards to DMPCs are bad-the party size is 10-therefore DMPC is bad idea, if smaller group acceptable as long as they are not a MarySue.
interesting article if anyone is interested link here (http://www.exchangeofrealities.com/2011/02/08/the-danger-of-the-dmpc/)