Of Aboleths and their taking out of the water.

[AsteriskAmp]

Due to a number of circumstances I've found out there is a good chance my party will be facing an aboleth in temporal proximity. Rather than countering the many wizzardly and annoying abilities they have; I'm more interested in the creative pre-emptive solution of pulling it out of the water somehow and having a portrait of my character next to its hanged on a stick slowly suffocating fish body.

I've however ran against a wall in the sense that it appears pulling it out of the water offers no actual benefit. Whilst some descriptions list it going into a coma of sorts when pulled out; I cannot for my life find any implementation of this event. And while the idea of having it's corpse on a harbour fish hanger is rather amusing on its own; I would much prefer for it to be his comatose self.

So my question is: Is there any place where the effects of pulling the fish out of the water are detailed? or should I just have to do with its corpse.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's in Lords of Madness, appropriately enough. I don't want to look it up right now, but take me at my word when I tell you it takes entirely too long to be remotely considerable as a viable combat tactic.

Dragging an aboleth out of the water will significantly hamper its mobility, but it'll still be extremely dangerous and have access to all it's abilities for far longer than it'd take to conduct a single battle. Nevermind the ridiculously dangerous circumstances that surround just trying to get the creature out of water. Have you read the slime and mucus cloud abilities? Grabbing this thing is a -bad- plan.

[AsteriskAmp]

It's in Lords of Madness, appropriately enough. I don't want to look it up right now, but take me at my word when I tell you it takes entirely too long to be remotely considerable as a viable combat tactic.

Dragging an aboleth out of the water will significantly hamper its mobility, but it'll still be extremely dangerous and have access to all it's abilities for far longer than it'd take to conduct a single battle. Nevermind the ridiculously dangerous circumstances that surround just trying to get the creature out of water. Have you read the slime and mucus cloud abilities? Grabbing this thing is a -bad- plan.Recitation to drag it's reflex to further hell and Quickened control water to move the water away (throw in dust of dryness if needed). Liberal application of wall of stone (through use of friendly druid) to keep it caged on the water clean floor and then changing the room while the beast is trapped in.

Return after a few hours and point and laugh at the thing. I needed to know if it could die, even after a few days.

[Namfuak]

Reading the suffocation rules and using the aboleth from the srd, suffocating an aboleth would take an average of 19 rounds to knock the aboleth unconscious.

10 rounds of holding breath (Con modifier +5 x2)
9 rounds to fail the fort save (on average) (DC 10 to start, +1 per round, aboleths have Fort +7 so assuming an average roll of 10.5 it takes a DC of 18 to fail)

Most likely, the battle will be over before the fort saves even start, since aboleths only have ~76 health, which is not a huge amount for a level 7 party. Of course, this does not take into account other advantages to having the aboleth out of the water, such as making it easier to see for spells and no penalties on ranged attacks.


Recitation to drag it's reflex to further hell and Quickened control water to move the water away (throw in dust of dryness if needed). Liberal application of wall of stone (through use of friendly druid) to keep it caged on the water clean floor and then changing the room while the beast is trapped in.

Return after a few hours and point and laugh at the thing. I needed to know if it could die, even after a few days.

I just read the respiratory system description in Lords of Madness. It's not entirely clear whether an aboleth actually would suffocate if it were pulled out of water. They apparently breath their mucus cloud, which is thickened by the water, though they can breath out of water. If I were using this and not the SRD aboleth, I would probably rule that trapping it in a small container would allow it to create a breathable environment for itself to wait in until the spells subsided. Apparently, the aboleth would go immobile eventually. I guess this strategy would work if you really wanted to make the aboleth pay for whatever reason.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay then. At 2 points of dex damage per hour out of water (LoM pg 17) it'd take 6 hours for the aboleth to be rendered immobile. It will never die from being left out of water and entering "the long dream" state negates starvation and thirst.

The plan you've described won't work though. Aboleths have a listed land speed and he'll bash his way through that stone wall or go around it to get back to the water.

Double check your master villian's list. Never leave an enemy alive unless you want it to come back and bite you in the butt. Hard.

Edit: the more recent version of the aboleth described in LoM doesn't begin to "drown" for being out of the water, in spite of the aquatic subtype. They don't actually breath water, the mucus is what carries oxygen into their bodies.

[Unusual Muse]

Solid Fog, Vortex of Teeth.. nom, nom, nom!

[AsteriskAmp]

Okay then. At 2 points of dex damage per hour out of water (LoM pg 17) it'd take 6 hours for the aboleth to be rendered immobile. It will never die from being left out of water and entering "the long dream" state negates starvation and thirst.

The plan you've described won't work though. Aboleths have a listed land speed and he'll bash his way through that stone wall or go around it to get back to the water.

Double check your master villian's list. Never leave an enemy alive unless you want it to come back and bite you in the butt. Hard.

Edit: the more recent version of the aboleth described in LoM doesn't begin to "drown" for being out of the water, in spite of the aquatic subtype. They don't actually breath water, the mucus is what carries oxygen into their bodies.Drag, there goes the master Aboleth slaying plan; I guess its back to good old filleting of the fish.

Solid Fog, Vortex of Teeth.. nom, nom, nom!No Wizard or Sorcerer; nearest thing is my Cleric of Mystra with Anyspell and Greater Version.

[Pandiano]

Drag, there goes the master Aboleth slaying plan; I guess its back to good old filleting of the fish.
No Wizard or Sorcerer; nearest thing is my Cleric of Mystra with Anyspell and Greater Version.

So you are royally screwed if you are not significantly higher in level or your DM plays these intelligent and devious creatures way too harmless or you'll fight an especially stupid one.
How would you drag a huge and heavy aboleth out of his lair that is usually connected to other caverns with water? These things are intelligent and know their weaknesses and paranoid and NEVER without slaves ever. And secured all their lairs with muliple programmed images, that they cast at will to waste your ressources.
Hope for your DM to be nice, otherwise you'll be food/enslaved/enslaved food or at least lose your prey.

Don't let your druid dive after them, thats a trap!
Do you have true seeing? To trap a 6500 pound huge monster with a myriad of illusions around and slaves attacking could be tricky.

But please post a report of your session, I hope you'll come up with a creative way to kick that things .... tail I guess :-)

[Deophaun]

And secured all their lairs with muliple programmed images, that they cast at will to waste your ressources.
Blindsight is only a second level w/s/d spell (third level cleric). That takes care of that problem. Magic circles of protection take care of domination. That just leaves the water and scumification.

[Acanous]

Blindsight won't help, the thing has a move speed of greater than your range, and it can just wait out the duration while staying invisible and untargettable.
The longer you're in it's lair, the more time the minions have to set up traps behind you, then come to the Aboleth's aid.

The circles do help, but the save bonus probably won't be enough for the party meat wall, who will be dominated once the circle wears off. Just in time to kill you in your sleep.

I really can't stress how deadly an Aboleth can be when played properly.
But then again, there's DM's that will have an Aboleth be foiled by a boat, so you get varying degrees of danger.

[Deophaun]

Blindsight won't help, the thing has a move speed of greater than your range, and it can just wait out the duration while staying invisible and untargettable.
It helps you ignore the permanent images. That's huge. That means you don't run into traps. You don't think you're walking through a dungeon corridor when, in fact, you're in the middle of a bog. You see these traps when you're six squares away from them, not after you've already blundered in. How can you possibly say that doesn't help?

See invisibility is also a level 2 spell, btw. Range of vision. Once your blindsight has pierced the permanent image, you can see anything invisible behind it. The biggest hurdles are, as I said, the water and scumification.

Aboleths are only death if you do not know you're going to be facing one. That's why they aren't obvious in their dealings. If you do know you'll be facing one, and you still die, it's your fault.

[AsteriskAmp]

So you are royally screwed if you are not significantly higher in level or your DM plays these intelligent and devious creatures way too harmless or you'll fight an especially stupid one.
How would you drag a huge and heavy aboleth out of his lair that is usually connected to other caverns with water? These things are intelligent and know their weaknesses and paranoid and NEVER without slaves ever. And secured all their lairs with muliple programmed images, that they cast at will to waste your ressources.True sight, domain spell; range true sight, chained range true sight casted through Dweomerkeeper supernatural spell and Divine Metamagic. Wall of stone thanks to druidic ally. Control Water. Profit.

Not that it matters seeing as the absence of water is not exactly productive.


Hope for your DM to be nice, otherwise you'll be food/enslaved/enslaved food or at least lose your prey.Unlikely; if we manage to get it into the Ranger's range he can do his hp on skirmish damage alone ignoring any buffs I cast beforehand or quicken at the start.

Alternatively I've looked into some particular surprises for the Aboleth in case I am the one that is pitted against it. Worst case at all; Plane Shift is a Mantle spell and I have enough spell slots to use it in place if something goes awry.

Don't let your druid dive after them, thats a trap!
Do you have true seeing? To trap a 6500 pound huge monster with a myriad of illusions around and slaves attacking could be tricky.Not thinking of letting that happen and read above.


But please post a report of your session, I hope you'll come up with a creative way to kick that things .... tail I guess :-)I'll do so. But the more I read into killing this thing the more it seems I shall temporarily have to make myself a wizard and outright throw spheres at it.

Blindsight is only a second level w/s/d spell (third level cleric). That takes care of that problem. Magic circles of protection take care of domination. That just leaves the water and scumification.Control Water or Dust of Dryness.


Blindsight won't help, the thing has a move speed of greater than your range, and it can just wait out the duration while staying invisible and untargettable.
The longer you're in it's lair, the more time the minions have to set up traps behind you, then come to the Aboleth's aid. True Sight is minute per level; worst case we have Rope Trick casted through Anyspell.


The circles do help, but the save bonus probably won't be enough for the party meat wall, who will be dominated once the circle wears off. Just in time to kill you in your sleep.+4 Tyche's Touch and +3 Recitation and +5 Bardic Music. We have no party wall so to speak; the closest thing is a fleshraker for whom I have range resurgence prepared.


I really can't stress how deadly an Aboleth can be when played properly.
But then again, there's DM's that will have an Aboleth be foiled by a boat, so you get varying degrees of danger.The party's is both optimised for slaying anything with hitpoints and composed of veterans, so the lethality may be reduced. But I AM aware of the horrors that this creature supposes.

[Winter_Wolf]

Based on my recall of Lords of Madness, an aboleth can't die from being out of water, it goes into "the long dreaming". According to same source, many aboleth consider the long dreaming a fate worse than death. If it gets rehydrated somehow, it comes out of its coma. You could (and probably should) kill them if you find them dried out and comatose, though. In a way, you'd kind of be doing it a favor. Though I'm sure it would rather you push it back in the water so it can enslave half of you and reduce the other half to slime. It would enslave/kill you if it could, so don't get all merciful on it just because it's like an earthworm on a summer sidewalk on a sunny day.

An aboleth out of water is dangerous, but it has limited mobility (watch out for funky aboleth feats, though). Between meeting one on land and doing battle there, and going against one in its preferred environment, I'd definitely opt for the land encounter, but some kind of anti-psi field and distance attacks are the ideal bet in any case.

[AsteriskAmp]

Based on my recall of Lords of Madness, an aboleth can't die from being out of water, it goes into "the long dreaming". According to same source, many aboleth consider the long dreaming a fate worse than death. If it gets rehydrated somehow, it comes out of its coma. You could (and probably should) kill them if you find them dried out and comatose, though. In a way, you'd kind of be doing it a favor. Though I'm sure it would rather you push it back in the water so it can enslave half of you and reduce the other half to slime. It would enslave/kill you if it could, so don't get all merciful on it just because it's like an earthworm on a summer sidewalk on a sunny day.

An aboleth out of water is dangerous, but it has limited mobility (watch out for funky aboleth feats, though). Between meeting one on land and doing battle there, and going against one in its preferred environment, I'd definitely opt for the land encounter, but some kind of anti-psi field and distance attacks are the ideal bet in any case.If grinding existed as such, I'd be waiting for my sixth level slot to start properly using my Initiate of Mystra feat and doing what I did with an Ulitharid, seating on it while mocking him (goodbye scroll though).

Having it dried for children to have portraits next to it was one of my original plans, but it appears it doesn't noticeably help against it at least in immediate terms, so faster disposition options take precedence specially when I suspect it may not be a plain aboleth.

At the time I'm going over Sandstorm to see ways to dehydrate things without having to wait a day for it to go limp.

But it appears I'll have to resort to good 'l blasting and Over-over-weaponising the already powerful Ranger and the Druid (go go arrowhawks with range and chain buffs!)

[Twilightwyrm]

I wouldn't bother pulling it out of the water, as the mucus cloud would take far too long to dry up, and even then it would just form a cocoon around itself. Rather, I suggest one of two options:

1) Freeze the mucus glands. The aboleth has two mucus glands which it uses to both breath and, iirc, generate the mucus surrounding its body. Freezing both would have the same effect as freezing your windpipe, causing it to suffocate underwater, while you watch it die from a safe distance.

2) Barrage it with salt. Aboleths have no "skin" as such, with only the mucus cloud protecting them from the surrounding enviroment. Therefore, if exposed to the right amount of salt, the aboleth would suffer the same fate as a slug (even sea slugs suffer this fate, meaning that the aboleth naturally living in salt water wouldn't actually be any protection). Since it lacks skin, the salt in the water (or more likely mucus) around it would displace the water in its body, resulting in massive dehydration and death.

[AsteriskAmp]

I wouldn't bother pulling it out of the water, as the mucus cloud would take far too long to dry up, and even then it would just form a cocoon around itself. Rather, I suggest one of two options:

1) Freeze the mucus glands. The aboleth has two mucus glands which it uses to both breath and, iirc, generate the mucus surrounding its body. Freezing both would have the same effect as freezing your windpipe, causing it to suffocate underwater, while you watch it die from a safe distance.

2) Barrage it with salt. Aboleths have no "skin" as such, with only the mucus cloud protecting them from the surrounding enviroment. Therefore, if exposed to the right amount of salt, the aboleth would suffer the same fate as a slug (even sea slugs suffer this fate, meaning that the aboleth naturally living in salt water wouldn't actually be any protection). Since it lacks skin, the salt in the water (or more likely mucus) around it would displace the water in its body, resulting in massive dehydration and death.Are there mechanics for either of those tactics?

Because the reason I get to play something as Dwomerkeeper and our druid gets a Fleshraker is the same reason we have massive holes on what can be done and what logically could be done; a DM playing strictly by RAW (with the exception of diplomacy in which he uses Burlew's rules).

[killem2]

If he plays by RAW, Shivering Cold this things ass with the cleric? I don't know how many hit dice this thing is going to have, but even at max HD and using the 4th level ability score increases it could get +4, but I believe it loses out some for getting really big.

Yes, its cheesy, but technically it is RAW.

[Zeb]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acanous
Blindsight won't help, the thing has a move speed of greater than your range, and it can just wait out the duration while staying invisible and untargettable.
It helps you ignore the permanent images. That's huge. That means you don't run into traps. You don't think you're walking through a dungeon corridor when, in fact, you're in the middle of a bog. You see these traps when you're six squares away from them, not after you've already blundered in. How can you possibly say that doesn't help?

Programmed image :This spell functions like silent image, except that this spell’s figment activates when a specific condition occurs. The figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal elements, including intelligible speech.

Blindsight (Ex)
Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object.

Blindsight does not defeat programmed image.

You need trueseeing

[AsteriskAmp]

If he plays by RAW, Shivering Cold this things ass with the cleric? I don't know how many hit dice this thing is going to have, but even at max HD and using the 4th level ability score increases it could get +4, but I believe it loses out some for getting really big.

Yes, its cheesy, but technically it is RAW.Only banned spell after quickened range chain shivering touch followed by range chain shivering touch managed to eliminate 14 enemies.

I do know traditional ways to murder it, my intent is mainly to see alternate ways like the use of the dehydration spell and likes to get rid of the thing in a non-standard manner (fleshraker druid and travel devotion Sword of the Arcane Order Ranger/Scout already do that pretty well with me Girallon Blessing them and the Dragonfire Inspiration Bard, Dragonfire Inspirating them Courage).

[Fighter1000]

Favored Enemy (Abberrations)
Trying to shoot a projectile weapon underwater wouldn't work, would it?
Neither would casting a spell with verbal components.
Just saying

[killem2]

Are there any spells that let you straight up freeze large amounts of water or boil it?

[AsteriskAmp]

Favored Enemy (Abberrations)
Trying to shoot a projectile weapon underwater wouldn't work, would it?
Neither would casting a spell with verbal components.
Just sayingDirect damage is not an issue; I know that the party can murder this thing without major issues with liberal application of true seeing and ST buffing and Resurgence just in case. Worst case I can do a rain of orbs or summon allips from a scroll to have the aboleth in a comma (even if this second strategy would be better reserved for level 13 when trying to take down big T for the XP).

The wall of X spells solve the issue of being able to cast above water while this thing swims down bellow.

What I'm looking for is non-standard ways to actually screw up with the creature. Dispel Water would be rather useful since it has no save and gets rid of the water in one go; Dessicate interaction with the Aboleth drowning is something I'm not sure how would work; Beads of Karma and Choking Sands could prove useful but I don't really know how they would interact.

Looking also for spells that are no save or have Ref saves that could help from Sorceror or Wizard 2 and bellow, or Cleric up to 6 because the aboleth normally have impenetrable Will and Fort but suck at Ref (though getting his defences low enough and phantasmal killing it is not out of the question either for its practicality.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

You might be able to freeze him. Frostburn puts foward a rate at which ice melts. IIRC, it's 3 points of fire damage for every inch of ice burned through. A generous DM might allow the reverse to function. The target of a cold spell that's under water is rimed with ice an inch thick for every 3 points of cold damage taken. The aboleth could maybe free itself with a strength check though.

The salt thing is bogus. There's not even a precedent for such a thing in the rules, much less any direct rules for it. A friendly DM might be willing to make the call that salt acts as a contact poison that deals some amount of dex damage or dehydration damage on exposure, but that'd be entirely in the realm of housrules.

[Spuddles]

Are aboleths actually that dangerous? Other than dominate 3/day, they seem fairly straightforward once you both figure out what you're up against and have the ability to pierce illusions at will.

Its mucous cloud requires you to both touch and inhale it for it to be dangerous.

The only thing that's really nasty is the slime ability, but if you know what you're up against, no biggie. Just carry a few scrolls.

[Pandiano]

Are aboleths actually that dangerous? Other than dominate 3/day, they seem fairly straightforward once you both figure out what you're up against and have the ability to pierce illusions at will.

Its mucous cloud requires you to both touch and inhale it for it to be dangerous.

The only thing that's really nasty is the slime ability, but if you know what you're up against, no biggie. Just carry a few scrolls.

That greatly depends on how intelligent your DM plays intelligent monsters.
If it sits there, fighting to death in a futile atempt to eat you, no, not very dangerous.
If it has domimated itself some guards and knows when to redraw into its dark lair underwater once it sees that you can pierce the illusions it becomes more difficult. Intelligent creatures do not tend to fight to death.
Also, if you don't know that you are up against an aboleth, why would you have your minute long illusion piercing buff on? Or protection from domimation?

[Wrathof42]

Only banned spell after quickened range chain shivering touch followed by range chain shivering touch managed to eliminate 14 enemies.


Sesh what level are you that you had the feats to pull this off? Also why sink so many feats into DMM's? I mean that's what at bare minumum 5-6 feats? Sheer action economy alone means some of those DMM's are going to waste. As far as the drying out goes it looks like RAW isn't on your side. I'd suggest (and I know it's not quite the same) a simple Flesh to X. Maybe if you're feeling like splurging it'd be fun to make it a valid target for shrink item somehow -read kill- and throw a permanency on it as well as a revive of somekind. You could then carry it around in a goldfish bowl for kicks. Note: Only do this if you can also render it powerless from a spellcasting perspective as well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are aboleths actually that dangerous? Other than dominate 3/day, they seem fairly straightforward once you both figure out what you're up against and have the ability to pierce illusions at will.

Its mucous cloud requires you to both touch and inhale it for it to be dangerous.

The only thing that's really nasty is the slime ability, but if you know what you're up against, no biggie. Just carry a few scrolls.

A bog-standard aboleth with no class levels is set at CR7. This means its window of encounter is between levels 3 and 11. Below that it's supposedly unbeatable, above and it's a triviality. At the point where it's supposed to be a level appropriate challenge that you can pass by expending around 20% of the party's resources, level 7, there's no way to reliably pierce those illusions without buying a scroll. The spells that can undo the slime ability will represent significant monetary investment if you need more than 1 scroll for that. And that dominate effect is nothing to scoff at. It can completely turn the tide on a battle if it sticks.

If you specifically know that you're going to face an aboleth and what its abilities are, then it's CR is about right. If you stumble into its sphere of influence by chance, it's dramatically under CR'd. If you prepare specifically for fighting an aboleth then it's probably one or possibly two CR's too high.

All subject to party composition, of course.

Edit: semi-ninja'd.

[Deophaun]

Programmed image :This spell functions like silent image, except that this spell’s figment activates when a specific condition occurs. The figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal elements, including intelligible speech.

Blindsight (Ex)
Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object.

Blindsight does not defeat programmed image.

Programmed image creates an illusion as per Silent Image, except that the senses it includes is broader. However, besides that, it still has the limits of Silent Image, in that the effect has to be visualized by the caster. Blindsight encompasses an entire range of senses that aboleths do not have. Echo-locate it, electrosense it, smell how it doesn't funnel the ripe scent of the barbarian to your nose, and you'll be doing something the aboleth cannot accurately envision. It penetrates.

Just ask the grells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Programmed image creates an illusion as per Silent Image, except that the senses it includes is broader. However, besides that, it still has the limits of Silent Image, in that the effect has to be visualized by the caster. Blindsight encompasses an entire range of senses that aboleths do not have. Echo-locate it, electrosense it, smell how it doesn't funnel the ripe scent of the barbarian to your nose, and you'll be doing something the aboleth cannot accurately envision. It penetrates.

Just ask the grells.

Since aboleths absorb some of the memories and experiences of the people they eat then store this information in their eons long, eidetic racial memory that includes all the people their ancestors ate, I strongly suspect you're severely underestimating an aboleth's ability to conceptualize such details.

[Deophaun]

Since aboleths absorb some of the memories and experiences of the people they eat
I've never come across this. Are you sure you aren't confusing them with mindflayers?

I do know that accessing their racial memories is a slow process, so I'm not even sure how useful that would be for fulfilling the requirements of the spell even if that knowledge was there. Otherwise, I'm sure the racial memory would give them far more than 15 Int and three languages.

[Spuddles]

That greatly depends on how intelligent your DM plays intelligent monsters.
If it sits there, fighting to death in a futile atempt to eat you, no, not very dangerous.
If it has domimated itself some guards and knows when to redraw into its dark lair underwater once it sees that you can pierce the illusions it becomes more difficult. Intelligent creatures do not tend to fight to death.
Also, if you don't know that you are up against an aboleth, why would you have your minute long illusion piercing buff on? Or protection from domimation?


A bog-standard aboleth with no class levels is set at CR7. This means its window of encounter is between levels 3 and 11. Below that it's supposedly unbeatable, above and it's a triviality. At the point where it's supposed to be a level appropriate challenge that you can pass by expending around 20% of the party's resources, level 7, there's no way to reliably pierce those illusions without buying a scroll. The spells that can undo the slime ability will represent significant monetary investment if you need more than 1 scroll for that. And that dominate effect is nothing to scoff at. It can completely turn the tide on a battle if it sticks.

If you specifically know that you're going to face an aboleth and what its abilities are, then it's CR is about right. If you stumble into its sphere of influence by chance, it's dramatically under CR'd. If you prepare specifically for fighting an aboleth then it's probably one or possibly two CR's too high.

All subject to party composition, of course.

Edit: semi-ninja'd.

So in other words, as long as you aren't fighting something with more than 2x your CR and know they're coming, they're not tough.

Which means OP doesn't have much to worry about, unless it's an aboleth with 10 levels of wizard or something, in which case he should probably worry about those 10 wizard levels more than one more "lol melee sucks" ability.

[Deophaun]

At the point where it's supposed to be a level appropriate challenge that you can pass by expending around 20% of the party's resources, level 7, there's no way to reliably pierce those illusions without buying a scroll.
If you don't buy blindsight, arcane sight provides rock solid proof that you're dealing with illusions if you can make a reliable DC 21 spellcraft check in this instance (an illusionist will have no problems here, and most wizards probably need to roll no higher than a 5). No saving throw required. Level 5 casting for a wizard.

[hymer]

Just because the thing looks like an illusion of a minotaur doesn't mean there isn't a roper beneath it, you know. :smallsmile:

[Deophaun]

Just because the thing looks like an illusion of a minotaur doesn't mean there isn't a roper beneath it, you know. :smallsmile:
True, but regarding the rules of illusions, once faced with proof that an illusion isn't real, no saving throw is necessary. It doesn't matter what the illusion is hiding. In the case of figments (which is what a programmed image is), the illusion turns into a transparent outline. If a figment were covering an army of ropers, you'd see the ropers as soon as you disbelieved the illusion.

Glammers work a little differently (which is what you'd use to make a roper appear to be a giant hooka, for instance) in that the rules don't explicitly spell out what happens when you disbelieve besides knowing that the glammered subject is, in fact, the subject of an illusion.

[AsteriskAmp]

You might be able to freeze him. Frostburn puts foward a rate at which ice melts. IIRC, it's 3 points of fire damage for every inch of ice burned through. A generous DM might allow the reverse to function. The target of a cold spell that's under water is rimed with ice an inch thick for every 3 points of cold damage taken. The aboleth could maybe free itself with a strength check though.

The salt thing is bogus. There's not even a precedent for such a thing in the rules, much less any direct rules for it. A friendly DM might be willing to make the call that salt acts as a contact poison that deals some amount of dex damage or dehydration damage on exposure, but that'd be entirely in the realm of housrules.Unlikely, the DM is unlikely to divert from rules as written except to cover the most horrible exploits.


Sesh what level are you that you had the feats to pull this off? Also why sink so many feats into DMM's? I mean that's what at bare minumum 5-6 feats? Sheer action economy alone means some of those DMM's are going to waste.Human and Flaws; doable at level 9.

As far as the drying out goes it looks like RAW isn't on your side. I'd suggest (and I know it's not quite the same) a simple Flesh to X. Maybe if you're feeling like splurging it'd be fun to make it a valid target for shrink item somehow -read kill- and throw a permanency on it as well as a revive of somekind. You could then carry it around in a goldfish bowl for kicks. Note: Only do this if you can also render it powerless from a spellcasting perspective as well.Flesh to X gives a Fortitude save; Aboleths tend to have good Fort and Will. I also suspect the encounter is not en Aboleth but Aboleth with levels of stuff on top, something which will probably give it better saves.

So in other words, as long as you aren't fighting something with more than 2x your CR and know they're coming, they're not tough.

Which means OP doesn't have much to worry about, unless it's an aboleth with 10 levels of wizard or something, in which case he should probably worry about those 10 wizard levels more than one more "lol melee sucks" ability.Initiate of Mystra on a class that can cast Anti-Magic Fields and has Dispel as an spontaneous conversion. It's not the wizard that worries me but the way to get rid of the Aboleth in the most efficient manner which allows further fun with it; other than having the mucus for any future underwater adventure.

[hymer]

@ Deophaun: Fair enough. Still, to combat it, the DM just has to invent a spell like Nystul's Magical Aura that works on things other than items. Once it exists (if something like it doesn't already), the illusion aura is no longer proof that what you're looking at is an illusion.

[ko_sct]

A wish spell could be used to teleport an aboleth out of water, but at 28k a scroll, I doubt that's a cost-effective way of killing a CR7.....

It's honestly quite hard to get one out of water, maybe luring him into a teleportation circle ? (that's still nearly 5k gold for a scroll....

[AsteriskAmp]

A wish spell could be used to teleport an aboleth out of water, but at 28k a scroll, I doubt that's a cost-effective way of killing a CR7.....

It's honestly quite hard to get one out of water, maybe luring him into a teleportation circle ? (that's still nearly 5k gold for a scroll....
Dispel Water and Control Water followed by a wall of stone or iron.

[Deophaun]

@ Deophaun: Fair enough. Still, to combat it, the DM just has to invent a spell like Nystul's Magical Aura that works on things other than items. Once it exists (if something like it doesn't already), the illusion aura is no longer proof that what you're looking at is an illusion.
Not entirely sure on that. When dealing with magic, there's no way that you can have full proof of anything. Did you just step through an illusory floor, or did you just fail a Will save against a pattern to make you think you stepped through an illusory floor? Both are possible, but the rules state that stepping through an illusory floor does constitute proof that the floor is, in fact, illusory. Obviously, proof is not defined as 100% certainty, just high confidence.

But, let's take the current Nystul's magic aura. An aboleth could cast that on an existing stone wall to make it generate an aura of illusion. The problem is, Nystul's is a level 1 spell, and if you're using arcane sight or even detect magic, it's giving off a visible effect. It's a DC 21 Spellcraft check to identify it, specifically, as Nystul's magic aura, which is the same target for identifying the aura of a programmed image. You can't win that way.

The true use for your custom spell would be to suppress the illusion's aura entirely, which definitely would defeat the tactic. But, the problem is, this isn't an official spell, the aboleth would have to know it, and it would be the case of a DM inventing something to screw with a prepared party. Unless the party has the chance to discover the existence of such a spell in the aboleth's possession ahead of time, I'd rule it a case of questionable DMing.

[Twilightwyrm]

Are there mechanics for either of those tactics?

Because the reason I get to play something as Dwomerkeeper and our druid gets a Fleshraker is the same reason we have massive holes on what can be done and what logically could be done; a DM playing strictly by RAW (with the exception of diplomacy in which he uses Burlew's rules).

With all due respect to your DM, the RAW in D&D is largely...incomplete. Because the books are written with a certain standard knowledge base in mind, they purposefully take a number of things for granted, things that it just assumes the players would know and therefore automatically apply in their game. The "dead" condition would be a good example of this, since by RAW being dead doesn't actually do anything to your character, other than causing their soul to leave their body (and since RAW does not describe the effects of one's soul leaving their body, well...). Another example would be fish. Sure, RAW describes several races that resemble fish, others whose primary diets or economies come from catching fish, and even allows for Profession (Fisherman). And yet, with the exception of sharks and octopi (and piranhas in later books), strictly by the RAW fish do not exist. Neither, for that matter, do the various microorganisms that allow the human body to function, or any number of other obvious, assumed, yet not specified material.
If your DM wants to allow class mechanics to function by the RAW, that's fine, but they cannot feasibly play D&D as it is set up without allowing for those things that are assumed to be part of the game, even if that is technically the RAI, rather than the RAW. And, unless they have stated otherwise, the general elements of chemistry and biology fall under this.

[hymer]

@ Deophaun: Would the wizard know the DC of the check? There's no hard rule on that that I know of. It could be more like:

DM: Roll Spellcraft.
Player: I get 28.
DM: It radiates illusion.

Probably best that way, since just casting detect magic would get you the spell's level since the DM told you the DC.
You can't cast NMA on a wall, btw, but that's neither here nor there. If you could, you could Heighten it to be the level you'd want if you know DCs when you roll Spellcraft checks.

The reason I'm somewhat concerned about your ploy is simply that Arcane Sight, by your ruling, renders a whole host of spells useless, most of them higher level than AS is (and AS can be permanencied). I'd expect the PCs (or for that matter NPCs) to at least confirm their strong suspicion with some testing before it's considered proven that something with an aura of illusion is actually entirely illusory.
As for 'nothing's certain where magic's concerned', I agree. It just seems to me to add to how you can't be sure that an illusion aura means there's this specific illusion there. Especially if you just came across (say) a wand of magic missile that radiated illusion magic when you checked for it. But then this whole thing turns into a case of the less you know, the better off you are.

As for the aboleth being prepared for AS being used against it, well, I don't think that's unfair if AS is as powerful as it is in your ruling. Most aboleths that have gotten killed probably had this kind of problem. The ones still alive are likely to be aware of this specific achilles heel of theirs.
And all the illusionists in a world like this would be falling all over each other to come up with a reliable counter. The spell wouldn't be too obscure.
I don't think changing AS from your I-Win button into my I-know-where-to-go-to-Win button is bad DMship.

But then again, AS probably lasts one encounter per casting, so the wizard could run out of them soon enough.

[AsteriskAmp]

With all due respect to your DM, the RAW in D&D is largely...incomplete. Because the books are written with a certain standard knowledge base in mind, they purposefully take a number of things for granted, things that it just assumes the players would know and therefore automatically apply in their game. The "dead" condition would be a good example of this, since by RAW being dead doesn't actually do anything to your character, other than causing their soul to leave their body (and since RAW does not describe the effects of one's soul leaving their body, well...). Another example would be fish. Sure, RAW describes several races that resemble fish, others whose primary diets or economies come from catching fish, and even allows for Profession (Fisherman). And yet, with the exception of sharks and octopi (and piranhas in later books), strictly by the RAW fish do not exist. Neither, for that matter, do the various microorganisms that allow the human body to function, or any number of other obvious, assumed, yet not specified material.
If your DM wants to allow class mechanics to function by the RAW, that's fine, but they cannot feasibly play D&D as it is set up without allowing for those things that are assumed to be part of the game, even if that is technically the RAI, rather than the RAW. And, unless they have stated otherwise, the general elements of chemistry and biology fall under this.In terms of combat mechanics fish do not exist; otherwise consumptive field would make dynamite fishing in preparation for combat a fantastic strategy.

Neither do those bacteria for intents of targeted spells; I cannot even target limbs which are assumed to exist.

Whilst the dead condition and drowning are the most clear examples, in terms of combat RAI or adding in biology and physics makes catgirls cry rather than make the game more sense. While defining dying could cause even more problems and requires the common sense approach (or spell phylactery revivification for the cleric and a combo of revenance and revivify on the others).

But then again, AS probably lasts one encounter per casting, so the wizard could run out of them soon enough.
Can be permanencied, the Dweomerkeeper has it as an at-will.

[hymer]

@ araveugnitsuga: Its spammable nature is another good indication it isn't supposed to be the bane of illusions. I was talking about the specific encounter, though; dweomerkeepers get it at level 7 (I think) at which time a CR 7 aboleth is probably no longer the BBEG. And they probably haven't had it permed yet, either. So in this specific case, it probably will cut into party ressources in a meaningful way.

[AsteriskAmp]

@ araveugnitsuga: Its spammable nature is another good indication it isn't supposed to be the bane of illusions. I was talking about the specific encounter, though; dweomerkeepers get it at level 7 (I think) at which time a CR 7 aboleth is probably no longer the BBEG. And they probably haven't had it permed yet, either. So in this specific case, it probably will cut into party ressources in a meaningful way.Not necessarily, spammable or not means nothing to what it is intended to do; that is a particular interpretation. Arcane Sight will let you detect the presence of magic, an notice it has an aura of illusion; that's rather suspicious of something and would lead to one actively trying to disbelieve or just outright ignoring it.

[hymer]

Arcane Sight will let you detect the presence of magic, an notice it has an aura of illusion; that's rather suspicious of something and would lead to one actively trying to disbelieve or just outright ignoring it.

I agree. Deophaun's position (as I read it) is that Arcane Sight basically makes you see right through illusions that can be disbelieved, since an "arcane sight provides rock solid proof that you're dealing with illusions" (I'm quoting him a bit further up), and when you have proof, there's "No saving throw required." That's what I'm objecting to.

[Deophaun]

@ Deophaun: Would the wizard know the DC of the check? There's no hard rule on that that I know of. It could be more like:

DM: Roll Spellcraft.
Player: I get 28.
DM: It radiates illusion.
There are two things we need to disentangle here. One is the Spellcraft check granted by Arcane Sight, which is DC 15 + spell level. That lets you determine the school of magic the effect belongs to. It gives you no other information than that.

The second is the Spellcraft check to identify a spell that's already in effect, provided you can see or detect said spell. This is part of the Spellcraft skill. DC is 20 + spell level.

So, on a DC 21, your arcane sight tells you that a wall generated with a programmed image radiates magic from the school of illusion. You don't know it's a programmed image, but if you have a good dungeoneering check and know you're dealing with an aboleth, it's a good bet.

Also, on a DC 21, if you pick up an aura that is generated by magic aura, you will know exactly that you are dealing with the magic aura spell. You won't be able to actually know what the aura is supposed to be unless you make a successful Will save, but you do know you are getting a false reading.

Does it make illusions obsolete? No. Illusions are effective where they do not call attention to themselves. Put an illusion of a tree in a forest, and no one will ever be the wiser. But once someone suspects an illusion, the facade drops without much resistance. This is why aboleths are secretive; if the party has figured out they're dealing with an aboleth before the engagement happens, the aboleth has already lost.

As for making arcane sight permanent, well, that's why you have dispel magic. Honestly, my players know better than to spend money on permanencied spells, or even divine metamagic persist shenanigans.

As for casting magic aura on a wall, the spell lets you target an object of 5lbs/level. You just need some covering and you can get it on the wall. Heck, merge a few barrels of oil or take a big bucket of lard, cast magic aura on that, and then spread. So, technically, you're right. Practically, it's not much of a hurdle.

[supermonkeyjoe]

I can't believe no-one has yet mentioned the best aquatic-killing spell in the game Water Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm)

More specifically the part that states
If the spell is cast underwater (or while the subjects are partially or wholly submerged in whatever liquid they are in), the subjects are borne toward the surface at 60 feet per round until they can stand on it.

You just need to be able to get an aboleth to fail a will save against a level 3 spell :smallfrown:

[hymer]

@ Deophaun: Thanks for clarifying that.

@ supermonkeyjoe: The reason nobody's mentioned it is probably because it's a touch spell. Just guessing, though.

[AsteriskAmp]

I can't believe no-one has yet mentioned the best aquatic-killing spell in the game Water Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm)

More specifically the part that states

You just need to be able to get an aboleth to fail a will save against a level 3 spell :smallfrown:Giving a rough estimate of his Will:
+11 (considering WotC loves giving enemies useless multiclasses) let's assume between two or three classes, worst case scenario with always picking up Will as a good save (5 levels to hit EL12 [since the module is by DM admission between 8-12] and this looks like the boss encounter):
+11+6+3=+20

Base save for the spell: 10+6+3=19
If I can cast it twenty times I could hope for the best. Unless there is some chain shenanigan and making him have to make the save more times. But if that was the case, something more elegant like save or dies could would become suddenly fantastic.

But sadly the aboleth doesn't actually lose much once outside the water, and the idea of using wall of stone and move water offers no save (or reflex on certain readings).

@ supermonkeyjoe: The reason nobody's mentioned it is probably because it's a touch spell. Just guessing, though.Range Spell makes it less of a massive threat to deliver. The will save is still a pain.

[SaintRidley]

I've never come across this. Are you sure you aren't confusing them with mindflayers?

I do know that accessing their racial memories is a slow process, so I'm not even sure how useful that would be for fulfilling the requirements of the spell even if that knowledge was there. Otherwise, I'm sure the racial memory would give them far more than 15 Int and three languages.

Normally, they don't. For Aboleths to add their prey to their own (and therefore the race's) memory, they need the Memory Eater feat, Lords of Madness pp. 22-23.

Benefit of the feat?


The aboleth processes and remembers countless memories of those it has eaten. It can make untrained skill checks in any skill, including those in which it has no ranks and that normally cannot be used untrained.
Normal: Aboleths receive only random flashes of memory that quickly fade while eating the flesh of an intelligent creature.

So, it's probably in racial memory, if an ancestor had the feat, but as noted, it takes a bit more time to do so. So unless the traps are often set and reset with the same parameters based on the memories of eaten landcritters, racial memory is of no use. If the present aboleth has the feat, then that's a bit more dangerous, since that kind of memory is more immediately accessible.

[Coidzor]

Since aboleths absorb some of the memories and experiences of the people they eat then store this information in their eons long, eidetic racial memory that includes all the people their ancestors ate, I strongly suspect you're severely underestimating an aboleth's ability to conceptualize such details.

Just for clarification, aboleths have Programmed Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/programmedImage.htm) at will, correct? That spell doesn't include anything that would defeat electro-sense(heat-sense, sure, but once you delve into electromagnetic fields, that's kind of a whole new level of ask your DM territory anyway), echo-location, or blindsight via sensing vibrations, ability to conceptualize such details be damned. It will defeat hearing or smell based blindsight though.

Programmed Image: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/programmedImage.htm)
Programmed Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Effect: Visual figment that cannot extend beyond a 20-ft. cube + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration: Permanent until triggered, then 1 round/level

This spell functions like silent image, except that this spell’s figment activates when a specific condition occurs. The figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal elements, including intelligible speech.

You set the triggering condition (which may be a special word) when casting the spell. The event that triggers the illusion can be as general or as specific and detailed as desired but must be based on an audible, tactile, olfactory, or visual trigger. The trigger cannot be based on some quality not normally obvious to the senses, such as alignment. (See magic mouth for more details about such triggers.)
Material Component

A bit of fleece and jade dust worth 25 gp.

Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense):
Blindsight And Blindsense

Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures and must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

[killem2]

OP: What kind of water mass is this thing in? Lake? Ocean? Sea? River?

[AsteriskAmp]

OP: What kind of water mass is this thing in? Lake? Ocean? Sea? River?I don't know. The party knows we are goign to face an aboleth in eventual vicinity and that it is probably the BBEG of the module, but we have no idea where it will happen.