Tiers

[OrlockDelesian]

Can someone explain the meaning of tiers?
I see a lot of people in this forum talking about them, and I have no idea what they are :P

[docnessuno]

Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

Why each class is in it's tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh dear, another one of these threads...

Okay, in brief:

The Tier system was set up as more a set of guidelines, describing the approximate ability for a given class to be effective in multiple ways.

Tier 1 basically means he can break the game completely in multiple ways, often simultaneously. For example, a Wizard who is sufficiently paranoid can pretty much be immune to anything short of DM Fiat by around level 9. That same wizard can fill any party role, or has a spell which can duplicate it. For example, the spell Knock replaces the Boxman, the spell line Summon monster lets him make disposable decoys, trapspringers, and instant beatstick. Orb of X spell series lets him deal out damage output if he really wants to.

By contrast, Tier 6 means they aren't effective even in the one area they are supposed to be effective in. Example: Truenamer.

[DeltaEmil]

Tiers explained in all their details. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7667912&postcount=2)

[Rubik]

In before, "Tiers don't exist, despite the fact that they're utterly self-evident."

[Morph Bark]

Do you happen to have signatures turned on? Oh, y'know, just asking. No, no, just curious, no real purpose, really.

[Flickerdart]

The one thing to note about Tiers is that they're not about which classes can be optimized to be the best (which is a common misconception held by those that never read the relevant material). Tiers are about versatility and power regardless of build and optimization level. It is possible to move a class up or down the system with sufficient degrees of optimization, so having a, say, rogue who is contributing as much as a sorcerer is not impossible, and a wizard that intentionally makes very bad choices can slide all the way down into uselessness.

Neither are Tiers reserved only for arena matches. They measure how much a party member is able to contribute to the party. Yes, if the wizard casts half of his spells to buff the fighter, then the fighter can kick butt, but without the wizard, the fighter would be struggling, while the wizard could just cast some offensive spells instead and still finish an encounter, or turn himself into a dragon and mix it up in melee combat if he feels like it.

The same game test is often employed as evidence of a class's Tier ranking - of a number of varied situations, how many can this class contribute to effectively? Classes at Tier 4 or below will be unable to contribute to many, because they have a very narrow focus and/or too little power to manage anything but a very specific role slice - one that the higher tiers utterly eclipse them in while still being useful for other things, usually.

Another common argument against the Tier system is that lower tier classes can just use gold to buy magic items (usually custom) and stay relevant using those, but magic items aren't a class feature unless you're an Artificer (which is a T1 class). The rule of thumb is - if a Commoner with your WBL can do the same thing, then it's not a feature of your class.

[Worira]

By contrast, Tier 6 means they aren't effective even in the one area they are supposed to be effective in. Example: Truenamer.

Truenamers are considered untiered, actually.


In before, "Tiers don't exist, despite the fact that they're utterly self-evident."

http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/2/2b/Tires_don_exits_shirt.png

[The-Mage-King]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/2/2b/Tires_don_exits_shirt.png

...
THIS IS WHY WE NEED A LIKE BUTTON! I should go start a petition in the meta-forum forum...

[toapat]

The rule of thumb is - if a Commoner with your WBL can do the same thing, then it's not a feature of your class.

IE: why mountain Hammer only counts in combat, not outside of combat.

Other thing to note would be that tiers also do not represent mobility of a given class. A monk will always be Tier 5, but a paladin can reach Tier 3 equivalent, for instance

[Rubik]

IE: why mountain Hammer only counts in combat, not outside of combat.

Other thing to note would be that tiers also do not represent mobility of a given class. A monk will always be Tier 5, but a paladin can reach Tier 3 equivalent, for instanceYou can push the monk to tier 3 without too much issue, assuming you use ACFs and funky things like enhancing your unarmed strikes with the right weapon qualities (since your whole body is basically an unarmed strike).

However, optimizing most classes will push them up a bit.

[Juntao112]

You can push the monk to tier 3 without too much issue, assuming you use ACFs and funky things like enhancing your unarmed strikes with the right weapon qualities (since your whole body is basically an unarmed strike).
Is the beard included for the purpose of this discussion?

[toapat]

You can push the monk to tier 3 without too much issue, assuming you use ACFs and funky things like enhancing your unarmed strikes with the right weapon qualities (since your whole body is basically an unarmed strike).

However, optimizing most classes will push them up a bit.

1: Magic Items specifically do not count unless your class feature is directly replicated by them, then they count against you
2: the only ACF i see worth using is one that turns you into a Wildshape druid, which ends up being brutal

[Gavinfoxx]

2: the only ACF i see worth using is one that turns you into a Wildshape druid, which ends up being brutal

Tier 3 Monk?
Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn.

[Flickerdart]

IE: why mountain Hammer only counts in combat, not outside of combat.
Mountain Hammer is a class feature of the ToB classes, and still most definitely counts in their favour.

[Rubik]

1: Magic Items specifically do not count unless your class feature is directly replicated by them, then they count against youThere's no other class in the game that can enhance unarmed strikes as effectively as the monk, because nobody else has the caveat stating that any body part can be used as a weapon. Thus, you don't get full use out of weapon abilities like Ghost Touch (which allows you to be both ethereal and material simultaneously, and as a non-action). That, and flurry allows you more use out of, say, the throwing enhancement, since you get more strikes per round.

You can enhance through items, but you can also do such via other means, such as kensai and Ancestral Relic (assuming you spend 300 gp on making yourself masterwork during character creation -- doable as per RAW, due to counting as a manufactured weapon...which is also something nobody else can do).

[toapat]

Tier 3 Monk?
Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn.

Of those:

Wild Monk: This ACF is doing basically all the heavy lifting.
Holy Strike: ~ +.1 tier
Invisible Fist: is about +.4 tier
Resistant body: Maybe +.1 tier. It isnt alot of resistance and it doesnt scale, the Cold Iron strike is better IMO


Mountain Hammer is a class feature of the ToB classes, and still most definitely counts in their favour.

just not for bashing down walls, expecially since they finally fixed the Material Rules

[JaronK]

There's no other class in the game that can enhance unarmed strikes as effectively as the monk, because nobody else has the caveat stating that any body part can be used as a weapon.

Well, except unarmed variant swordsage, of course.

JaronK

[Rubik]

Well, except unarmed variant swordsage, of course.

JaronKDon't they only get the improved damage scaling, and that's it?

[Amphetryon]

Don't they only get the improved damage scaling, and that's it?

They get Maneuvers as a Swordsage, which can greatly enhance Unarmed Strikes. I believe that was JaronK's point.

[Flickerdart]

just not for bashing down walls, expecially since they finally fixed the Material Rules
It can definitely be used to bash down walls. In fact, it's quite helpful in that endeavour.

[Qwertystop]

It can definitely be used to bash down walls. In fact, it's quite helpful in that endeavour.

I believe that the point was that your statement of "The rule of thumb is - if a Commoner with your WBL can do the same thing, then it's not a feature of your class." means that, for bashing down walls, Mountain Hammer does not count as soon as you reach a level at which an Admantine weapon is affordable.

[toapat]

It can definitely be used to bash down walls. In fact, it's quite helpful in that endeavour.

that specific instance is not counted in favor of Mountain hammer though, by your own words, because any chump with a measly pile of cash can replicate that effect. Again, because they patched the rules for Material hardness so that you didnt end up with situations like The Twinky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzaQjS1JstY) having a surface hardness of 180 instead of the proper 1 hardness.

Also: Adamantine Weapons are available at lvl 3. Lvl 2 if the party pools for a single pick

[Sgt. Cookie]

The Tier system should be treated like the manic scribblings of an insane wise man. Helpful at a glance, but look too deeply and you see that it's nonsensical gibberish.

[Juntao112]

And sometimes, when you look even more deeply than that, it becomes true again. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat's_Last_Theorem)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I noticed brilliantgameologists is down, so here are google cached pages:

Tier System for Classes (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:b0rgCHs5TUkJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D1002.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Why each class is in its tier. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0kOI3ikPeHoJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D5256.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Why Tier 1s are in Tier 1. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:V9nYbCgQLsIJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D4938.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Why Tier 2s are Tier 2s (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RKOGCFiIcRQJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D4919.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1xhKNtA8zQUJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D4890.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #2 of 2 (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SmjhrHe3jqMJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D4913.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vSxZ6fvfohkJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D4874.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ljtK-piTU0QJ:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D4869.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Why Tier 6s are in Tier 6. (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:97US1yXk-sEJ:brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D5052.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

[Gavinfoxx]

You forgot the base class reference and tier information thread, and I dont know how to do google cache searches since they changed it...

[Flickerdart]

that specific instance is not counted in favor of Mountain hammer though, by your own words, because any chump with a measly pile of cash can replicate that effect. Again, because they patched the rules for Material hardness so that you didnt end up with situations like The Twinky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzaQjS1JstY) having a surface hardness of 180 instead of the proper 1 hardness.

Also: Adamantine Weapons are available at lvl 3. Lvl 2 if the party pools for a single pick
Adamantine weapons only bypass hardness under 20. Mountain Hammer bypasses all hardness, even hardness 1 billion for some sort of theoretical superdense material. Adamantine, like you said yourself, is cheap enough that anyone who wants to really protect something can build in adamantine walls, floors, and ceilings, and doors, in which case your pick is an expensive paperweight.

[toapat]

Adamantine weapons only bypass hardness under 20. Mountain Hammer bypasses all hardness, even hardness 1 billion for some sort of theoretical superdense material. Adamantine, like you said yourself, is cheap enough that anyone who wants to really protect something can build in adamantine walls, floors, and ceilings, and doors, in which case your pick is an expensive paperweight.

Except that the way you get through an Adamantine Wall is electricity, not with a mining pick. Adamantine is also not cheap for structural work, as it is the most expensive material in the game. And if you really need something to cut through anything with? Kaorti resin or have a Wizard cast fabricate on his Wall of Force spell.

[Flickerdart]

Kaorti weapons don't bypass hardness, and electricity deals half damage to objects before hardness, so I'm not sure what you're trying to do there.

[toapat]

Kaorti weapons don't bypass hardness, and electricity deals half damage to objects before hardness, so I'm not sure what you're trying to do there.

if you are ignoring the rules for Material Hardness.

Adamantine would act similar to Aluminum, except even worse. The damage from a single Lightning bolt spell would melt an entire fortress made of the stuff.

kaorti Resin is extraplanar goo. It bypasses hardness by destroying the material it is being used on.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You forgot the base class reference and tier information thread, and I dont know how to do google cache searches since they changed it...

Google the url, or type site:brilliantgameologists.com (thread name)
Put your cursor over the correct search result, a » appears to the right of it.
Put your cursor over that, and a preview of the page appears to the right.
Find the blue "Cached" link at the top right of the preview.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

if you are ignoring the rules for Material Hardness.

Adamantine would act similar to Aluminum, except even worse. The damage from a single Lightning bolt spell would melt an entire fortress made of the stuff.

kaorti Resin is extraplanar goo. It bypasses hardness by destroying the material it is being used on.

[Citation Needed]

Kaorti Resin changes the crit multiplier to x4. Since inanimate objects are immune to critical hits, this does nothing to help them.

Trying to bring up real life physics in D&D is an act of futility at best and downright paradoxical at worst. Please, think of the catgirls.

[toapat]

[Citation Needed]

Kaorti Resin changes the crit multiplier to x4. Since inanimate objects are immune to critical hits, this does nothing to help them.

Trying to bring up real life physics in D&D is an act of futility at best and downright paradoxical at worst. Please, think of the catgirls.

Im going off of fluff and a little bit of mechanics as far as Kaorti Resin goes: It is spawned by malicious farlander beings in order to corrupt the Material plane. It is not entirely known the effects it has on the land where the Kaorti form a Cyst, and weapons that are formed from the material are particularly deadly to the natives.

as far as Physics: I didnt go into hard physics, so thats only a hospitalized catgirl. Its simply an extrapolation. Adamantine is the perfect weapon material. It essentially forms one perfect crystal, which means it transfers heat very rapidly. Lightning travels by having an extreme ammount of amperage, and so it generates alot of heat. It will dissolve a fortess of adamantine

[Fyermind]

Im going off of fluff and a little bit of mechanics as far as Kaorti Resin goes: It is spawned by malicious farlander beings in order to corrupt the Material plane. It is not entirely known the effects it has on the land where the Kaorti form a Cyst, and weapons that are formed from the material are particularly deadly to the natives.

as far as Physics: I didnt go into hard physics, so thats only a hospitalized catgirl. Its simply an extrapolation. Adamantine is the perfect weapon material. It essentially forms one perfect crystal, which means it transfers heat very rapidly. Lightning travels by having an extreme ammount of amperage, and so it generates alot of heat. It will dissolve a fortess of adamantine

This may be the way things work at your gaming table. That's awesome. I love it. It is not however RAW and directly conflicts with RAW for attacking objects with spells. I like it as a house rule (sort of) but please be sure to make the distinction as well.

[Augmental]

as far as Physics: I didnt go into hard physics, so thats only a hospitalized catgirl. Its simply an extrapolation. Adamantine is the perfect weapon material. It essentially forms one perfect crystal, which means it transfers heat very rapidly. Lightning travels by having an extreme ammount of amperage, and so it generates alot of heat. It will dissolve a fortess of adamantine

If an entire adamantine fortress could be destroyed by a single 3rd-level spell, there wouldn't be adamantine fortresses.

[toapat]

This may be the way things work at your gaming table. That's awesome. I love it. It is not however RAW and directly conflicts with RAW for attacking objects with spells. I like it as a house rule (sort of) but please be sure to make the distinction as well.


If an entire adamantine fortress could be destroyed by a single 3rd-level spell, there wouldn't be adamantine fortresses.

The entire section calls for houserules as according to logic. By logic, an adamantine Fortess is going to have a hell of a time with lightning and fire.

By RAW, you can light a cabin on fire and it will never burn down without the "by Logic" clause

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Im going off of fluff and a little bit of mechanics as far as Kaorti Resin goes: It is spawned by malicious farlander beings in order to corrupt the Material plane. It is not entirely known the effects it has on the land where the Kaorti form a Cyst, and weapons that are formed from the material are particularly deadly to the natives.And this has what to do with the price of tea in china?

The rulebook states that the only mechanical effect is to change the crit multiplier to x4. Anything else is a house rule.


as far as Physics: I didnt go into hard physics, so thats only a hospitalized catgirl. Its simply an extrapolation. Adamantine is the perfect weapon material. It essentially forms one perfect crystal, which means it transfers heat very rapidly. Lightning travels by having an extreme ammount of amperage, and so it generates alot of heat. It will dissolve a fortess of adamantineWhich, again, has absolutely nothing to do with the way D&D world reality works. So again, this doesn't work. Unless you can cite a source which states that lightning is particularly effective against Adamantine, you follow the rule of '[most elemental flavors including lightning] deals half damage before hardness to objects'.

It doesn't matter how it would work with Real Life Physics, it matters what the rules in the book are.

However, if you assume that it forms one perfect crystal, then actually lightning would be the worst thing to use on it, as it would be the ultimate lightning rod and Faraday Cage. It wouldn't take ANY damage from lightning in that case.

You'd do much better with Sonic, if you assume it is crystalline. Unfortunately for you, it isn't. But at least sonic damage isn't halved before being applied to hardness, so it would actually be more effective.

[toapat]

Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with the way D&D world reality works. So again, this doesn't work. Unless you can cite a source which states that lightning is particularly effective against Adamantine, you follow the rule of '[most elemental flavors including lightning] deals half damage before hardness to objects'.

It doesn't matter how it would work with Real Life Physics, it matters what the rules in the book are.

However, if you assume that it forms one perfect crystal, then actually lightning would be the worst thing to use on it, as it would be the ultimate lightning rod and Faraday Cage. It wouldn't take ANY damage from lightning in that case.

You'd do much better with Sonic, if you assume it is crystalline. Unfortunately for you, it isn't. But at least sonic damage isn't halved before being applied to hardness, so it would actually be more effective.

Although DnD does not obey Physics entirely, it can be easily assumed that the magic used to create lightning fully obeys physics on impact, lest the spells have no effect whatsoever, because it is still superconducting.

Adamantine, as it forms a single Perfect crystal (in DnD physics), would be extremely vulnerable to heat, because Heat nearly will superconduct through it. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-07-10)

Amperage is resistance, resistance generates heat.

Amperate is used to fuse and melt metal in the present day.

[Augmental]

The entire section calls for houserules as according to logic. By logic, an adamantine Fortess is going to have a hell of a time with lightning and fire.

By RAW, you can light a cabin on fire and it will never burn down without the "by Logic" clause

So you're saying that having an entire fortress made of adamantine melt into a puddle if it gets hit by one lightning bolt is the logical choice?

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not talking about physics of any sort. Just think about it; adamantine is supposed to be unbreakable by mortal means. Doesn't it seem slightly odd for it to be melt if exposed to a strong enough electric current?

[Qwertystop]

Although DnD does not obey Physics entirely, it can be easily assumed that the magic used to create lightning fully obeys physics on impact, lest the spells have no effect whatsoever, because it is still superconducting.

Adamantine, as it forms a single Perfect crystal (in DnD physics), would be extremely vulnerable to heat, because Heat nearly will superconduct through it. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-07-10)

Amperage is resistance, resistance generates heat.

Amperate is used to fuse and melt metal in the present day.

Wait.

So because it's nearly a superconductor (next-to-no-resistance/amperage), that means it has a lot of resistance and thus heat? I think I'm missing something here.

[toapat]

So you're saying that having an entire fortress made of adamantine melt into a puddle if it gets hit by one lightning bolt is the logical choice?

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not talking about physics of any sort. Just think about it; adamantine is supposed to be unbreakable by mortal means. Doesn't it seem slightly odd for it to be melt if exposed to a strong enough electric current?

Lightning certainly isnt mortal, and in DnD, Adamantine isnt invincible. As far as mortal means, sure that Adamantine fortress will be nice and sturdy for a long time. But when magic, divine powers, or the fact that you have a fortress of Theoretical ubermetal in a lightning storm, then faring well that structure will not do.

basically, in 3.5 Adamantine is the perfect metal for forging weapons out of (although typically Kaorti Resin is simply better for damage). the specific properties it would have though make it incredibly bad against things you normally use to work metal.


Wait.

So because it's nearly a superconductor (next-to-no-resistance/amperage), that means it has a lot of resistance and thus heat? I think I'm missing something here.

Let me rephrase that:

Crystal is extremely good at Conducting Heat, It is also very bad at carrying a current.
It is evident from spells such as Chainlightning that Lightning in DnD creates Amperage
We have no evidence to believe that DnD Adamantine is a High tempurature Superconductor of Electric Fields.

Thus, when Lightning strikes Adamantine, It creates a significant ammount of heat, which rapidly conducts away from the point of impact. The ammount of Heat this generates is going to be significantly more then the melting temperature in universe of adamantine

[Kazyan]

Since when have you been blockaded by an adamantine wall? Mountain Hammer is useful, sure, but you can buy an adamantine arrow and use it as a melee weapon for -4 to-hit, right there in the SRD. I can replicate most of MH's functionality for 61 gp. I seriously don't get why MH is seriously treated like it makes the Fighter+ a Tier 3 class, because that's not what does the trick.

[Rogue Shadows]

The Tier System: Undermined by adamantium!

[toapat]

Since when have you been blockaded by an adamantine wall? Mountain Hammer is useful, sure, but you can buy an adamantine arrow and use it as a melee weapon for -4 to-hit, right there in the SRD. I can replicate most of MH's functionality for 61 gp. I seriously don't get why MH is seriously treated like it makes the Fighter+ a Tier 3 class, because that's not what does the trick.

I will accept that Mountain Hammer has some form of function in the form of bypassing All DR, which is an incredible hassle without a party Artificer. Its out of combat utility is so short that it cant be counted at all, expecially since, as i pointed out, you no longer need Orbital superweapons to eat a Twinky (up until this year, the Material rules linked Hardness to Thickness).

[Story]

I think it's possible to get materials with hardness up to 80. Of course it probably won't come up unless you're fighting The Cube.

[toapat]

I think it's possible to get materials with hardness up to 80. Of course it probably won't come up unless you're fighting The Cube.

not outside of magic equipment, you can without epic i think get upto 85 hardness on magic fullplate Nope, magic armor only goes upto 40 hardness in the SRD

[Flickerdart]

By repeated castings of hardening or matter manipulation, it's possible to get hardness of whatever amount you want. Hell, simply being "magically treated" is enough to double an object's hardness, meaning that magic iron is 20.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Truenamers are considered untiered, actually.
This was the community's initial reaction.

Given the extremely mild amount of optimization needed to make the truenamer functional, you don't need to go outside of core plus ToM and you only need to pump intelligence and the truenaming skill, it's realistacally somewhere around tier 4-5. It can do many things, but it can't do them very well.

At full tilt, straddling-the-line-between-practical-and-theoretical optimization, it's probably mid to high tier 3.


@Toapat:

What are you on? Where in the world did you get the idea that adamantine is a "perfect crystal" in its structure? Why are you using a comic as an authoritative source on physics (especially given that the armor in that bit is a composite, not a single material and they got the physics wrong too, btw)? Finally, what changes to the material rules are you talking about? To the best of my knowledge those rules were never errata'd and even if they were it sure as hell wasn't last year. Are you trying to use DDO rules as your source again? Because that's NOT 3.5 RAW.

Also, it's bad form to use physics as part of your argument for several reasons but it's particularly egregious if you're going to get the physics wrong.

Electricity moving through a superconductor generates next to no heat and that heat is dispursed much faster than in non-superconductive metals. If adamantine is a perfect crystal, and consequently a superconductor, it should be immune to electric attacks, not vulnerable to them.

[toapat]

What are you on? Where in the world did you get the idea that adamantine is a "perfect crystal" in its structure? Why are you using a comic as an authoritative source on physics (especially given that the armor in that bit is a composite, not a single material)? Finally, what changes to the material rules are you talking about? To the best of my knowledge those rules were never errata'd and even if they were it sure as hell wasn't last year. Are you trying to use DDO rules as your source again? Because that's NOT 3.5 RAW.

Also, it's bad form to use physics as part of your argument for several reasons but it's particularly egregious if you're going to get the physics wrong.

Electricity moving through a superconductor generates next to no heat and that heat is dispursed much faster than in non-superconductive metals. If adamantine is a perfect crystal, and consequently a superconductor, it should be immune to electric attacks, not vulnerable to them.

1: The specific way adamantine functions is as though it was a single crystal of metal. perfectly shapable and workable. The specific comic is to illistrate why the entire fortress would melt.

2: The material and Hardness rules were errata'd in the last 6 months to match the more logical houserule everyone used anyway. DDO doesnt even use the material rules except in calculating how quickly acid spells or hitting skeletons obliterates (and i mean obliterates) your equipment, where acid does 100% damage to armor - hardness.

3: I was not saying Electrical superconductors, i was talking about thermal conductivity. And i said Near superconduct.

[Flickerdart]

The official errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) for the Dungeon Master's Guide was released in 2004. Is there some other Wizards of the Coast website that I am not aware of with a newer version?

[toapat]

The official errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) for the Dungeon Master's Guide was released in 2004. Is there some other Wizards of the Coast website that I am not aware of with a newer version?

new last minute stuff for the book reprints, the most obvious being a change to one of the lines in the material rules that corrects the fact that hardness multiplied with thickness. Most people didnt notice that specific rules bumble because Logic put up a Someone Else's problem on the wording so you ignored the problem.

[Flickerdart]

new last minute stuff for the book reprints
That's not a source. That's, at best, hearsay, unless and until you can demonstrate that such errata exists.

Even if the rule was changed, it doesn't prevent the three methods of boosting hardness that I listed on this very page. Magic iron is impermeable to adamantine weapons, as well as anything that's been treated with enough castings or manifestings of the two abilities.

[toapat]

Even if the rule was changed, it doesn't prevent the three methods of boosting hardness that I listed on this very page. Magic iron is impermeable to adamantine weapons, as well as anything that's been treated with enough castings or manifestings of the two abilities.

Magical means for boosting hardness were not errata'd (as those were intentional), the completely Mundane Twinky that can shrug off Intensified Meteor Swarms was (as that was a massive wording error).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Where is this supposedly eroneous rule about hardness being a function of the thickness of the object? It's not in the PHB, those rules for the hardness and hp's of objects have the hardness as a fixed value and the hp's as a function of thickness. The listed hardness and hp's for each of the special materials in the DMG also conform to this setup.

If you knew anything about crystals, you'd know that particularly tight-knit crystal formations make an object brittle. If adamantine was a perfect crystal, like diamond for example, then a sharp blow across the grain of the material should have it sheer very cleanly. Adamantine would be utterly worthless for bludgeoning weapons. Instead it somehow gains preturnatural momentum that transmits perfectly into any medium.

Thinking of -any- D&D special material as conforming to RL physics is an excersize in utter folly.

Electrical and thermal conductivity are the same thing, unless I'm mistaken. Even if I'm wrong about that, I'm dead certain there's a direct corelation between the two that means an electrical superconductor also conducts heat extremely well.

Your argument for adamantine's vulnerability to electricity is made of such utter fail that I'm beggining to wonder if you do these things as a form of trolling. :smallconfused:

Edit: looked into it. For metals at least, there's functionally no difference between electrical and thermal conductivity. Both are a function of the free moving electrons in the molecular structure of the material. Adamantine would conduct electricity and heat equally well.

[Eldest]

Thus, when Lightning strikes Adamantine, It creates a significant ammount of heat, which rapidly conducts away from the point of impact. The ammount of Heat this generates is going to be significantly more then the melting temperature in universe of adamantine

Everything up to this bit is good. The Adamantine, if it functions as you say and is a superconductor and somehow takes an enormous amount of heat despite being a superconductor, would then spread that heat out evenly throughout the adamantine. So unless you got enough heat in there to melt the entire thing, all added through one lightning strike, it's not happening.

Please don't make me come back in the morning and do the math on this.

[JaronK]

Wow, what's up with this Adamantine nonsense? Its response to Lightning Bolt is covered by RAW: Lightning Bolts deal half damage to objects.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm As such, it's very hard to damage adamantine with a lightning bolt. You'd have to do over 40 damage base just to scratch it.

And yes, Mountain Hammer is quite useful. It's trivial to make hardened walls of greater than 20 Hardness... casting Wall of Iron and then Augment Object (Stronghold Builder's Guide, page 41) instantly gives you 20 Hardness, and if the caster can hit a DC 22, that Wall of Iron can be Dwarvencraft Quality (24 Hardness). Frankly, I imagine any decent prison or serious defensive wall should be constructed in this way (Wall of Stone at Dwarvencraft Quality + Augment Object also works). I mean, as long as you've got a 9th level Cleric or Wizard available (or an 11th level Druid), you can do this pretty much free (the Cleric might want to cast Divine Insight first to hit that DC 22). Plus, the usual prison scenario generally involves losing your weapons first. But of course, the ToB classes weren't placed only for Mountain Hammer.

JaronK

[docnessuno]

Wow, what's up with this Adamantine nonsense?

It's another example of TaTT (Rules as Toapat Thinks). He is a nice guy but has the annoying habit to uphold his own vision of D&D rules (often quite weird, and widely agaisnt the commonly accepted ones) and believe them to be the sacred truth regardless of any counter argument.

[JoshuaZ]

Even being a decent conductor lets one get away with being heated a surprisingly large amount, even when one is a flammable object if one has a high ignition temperature. Large sheets of magnesium can have a blowtorch on them and they won't burn because the heat will disperse too rapidly. This is why there have even been engines with magnesium casings.

Running electricity through a decent conductor shouldn't generally do much at all. And that's even before we get to issues like the melting point. Tungsten has a melting point of around 3400 celsius (around 6000 F). This is why it is part of why it is used in rocket nozzles. And there are alloys of it that have even higher melting points. There are other metals that have melting points that are almost as high. Running massive electrical current through a rod of metal (even a steel rod), and if it a sheet of metal it will have even less resistance.

This is before as others have already pointed out that superconductors don't work that way, and have less resistance, and conduct heat better. Note by the way that if you just mean "superconductor" to just describe heat conduction then this is a highly non-standard use of language: superconducting is generally used just to describe the electrical conductivity properties.

Also, Schlock Mercenary, while a well-written comic is not a guide to either real life physics or D&D physics.

[Malimar]

The Tier system should be treated like the manic scribblings of an insane wise man. Helpful at a glance, but look too deeply and you see that it's nonsensical gibberish.

And sometimes, when you look even more deeply than that, it becomes true again. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat's_Last_Theorem)
Like with pie!

[Morph Bark]

Like with pie!

Relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKB4h9gvmm0).

[Rogue Shadows]

Like with pie!

Yay, Doctor Horrible!

So...here we are, arguing about conductivity and thermalness and adamantine.

Here's what I know about electricity:
- Yay Nikola Tesla!
- Boo Thomas Edison!
- Silver is the element that is best at conducting electricity! Followed by copper, then gold, then aluminum. We just use copper for wiring, etc., because it's absurdly cheaper than silver.
- Pure water is an insulator (i.e., not conductive at all)! The thing that causes to conduct electricity is all the impurities and crap in it, but pure water is an insulator.
- Salt water is a hundred times better a conductor than fresh water (NB "fresh," not "pure"), but it's a million times worse than silver.

...and...I'm out.

[JoshuaZ]

- Silver is the element that is best at conducting electricity! Followed by copper, then gold, then aluminum. We just use copper for wiring, etc., because it's absurdly cheaper than silver.


There are a few other properties of copper that make it preferable. Copper has a slightly higher melting point and is less dense. The first makes some problems less likely to occur, and the second is important for things where you care a lot about the total mass. Silver has a marginally higher heat capacity though, which would be one advantage. Copper is also harder than silver, and for most purposes that's a negative (you want to make wires out of something soft if you can). Silver also tarnishes badly which reduces conductivity and can do so in an unpredictable way. Overall, the advantage is arguable, and a plausible argument can be made that copper is actually better in this context. There are other, more technical issues that also come into play, but you'd have to ask an electrical engineer about those.

Note that in some contexts where one needs very specific conductivity properties, silver or gold is used. One common example is circuit boards. Gold is used more frequently than silver in this context because of the tarnishing issue.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Although DnD does not obey Physics entirely, it can be easily assumed that the magic used to create lightning fully obeys physics on impact, lest the spells have no effect whatsoever, because it is still superconducting.

Adamantine, as it forms a single Perfect crystal (in DnD physics), would be extremely vulnerable to heat, because Heat nearly will superconduct through it. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-07-10)

Amperage is resistance, resistance generates heat.

Amperate is used to fuse and melt metal in the present day.

This made me laugh. Come back when you have at least taken a high school level course on physics before trying to apply it to D&D. Hearsay and Conjecture do not replace fact and law.

You are welcome to think whatever you like, but as for me... I'll actually follow the rules in the rulebook rather than come up with some arbitrary house rule, mmkay?

[Story]

And yes, Mountain Hammer is quite useful. It's trivial to make hardened walls of greater than 20 Hardness... casting Wall of Iron and then Augment Object (Stronghold Builder's Guide, page 41) instantly gives you 20 Hardness, and if the caster can hit a DC 22, that Wall of Iron can be Dwarvencraft Quality (24 Hardness). Frankly, I imagine any decent prison or serious defensive wall should be constructed in this way (Wall of Stone at Dwarvencraft Quality + Augment Object also works). I mean, as long as you've got a 9th level Cleric or Wizard available (or an 11th level Druid), you can do this pretty much free (the Cleric might want to cast Divine Insight first to hit that DC 22). Plus, the usual prison scenario generally involves losing your weapons first. But of course, the ToB classes weren't placed only for Mountain Hammer.


Paragnostic Apostle increases the hardness by 2 as well.

[RFLS]

Although DnD does not obey Physics entirely, it can be easily assumed that the magic used to create lightning fully obeys physics on impact, lest the spells have no effect whatsoever, because it is still superconducting.

Adamantine, as it forms a single Perfect crystal (in DnD physics), would be extremely vulnerable to heat, because Heat nearly will superconduct through it. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2011-07-10)

Amperage is resistance, resistance generates heat.

Amperate is used to fuse and melt metal in the present day.


Let me rephrase that:

Crystal is extremely good at Conducting Heat, It is also very bad at carrying a current.
It is evident from spells such as Chainlightning that Lightning in DnD creates Amperage
We have no evidence to believe that DnD Adamantine is a High tempurature Superconductor of Electric Fields.

Thus, when Lightning strikes Adamantine, It creates a significant ammount of heat, which rapidly conducts away from the point of impact. The ammount of Heat this generates is going to be significantly more then the melting temperature in universe of adamantine


1: The specific way adamantine functions is as though it was a single crystal of metal. perfectly shapable and workable. The specific comic is to illistrate why the entire fortress would melt.

2: The material and Hardness rules were errata'd in the last 6 months to match the more logical houserule everyone used anyway. DDO doesnt even use the material rules except in calculating how quickly acid spells or hitting skeletons obliterates (and i mean obliterates) your equipment, where acid does 100% damage to armor - hardness.

3: I was not saying Electrical superconductors, i was talking about thermal conductivity. And i said Near superconduct.


new last minute stuff for the book reprints, the most obvious being a change to one of the lines in the material rules that corrects the fact that hardness multiplied with thickness. Most people didnt notice that specific rules bumble because Logic put up a Someone Else's problem on the wording so you ignored the problem.

I'm just going to go in order-

1. Amperage isn't resistance. Amperage is current. It's a measure of how many electrons are moving past a given point per unit of time. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere)

2. Resistance (since there seems to be confusion here, too) is a measure of how resistant a given material is to the flow of electrons through it. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistance)

3. Crystals don't tend one way or another in thermal conductivity, really. If anything, I'd suspect that they're poor conductors of heat due to their rigid structure having a hard time accepting increased kinetic energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat) to one particular area of the crystal. [Citation needed]

4. You seem to be confused as to what a crystal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal) is. They tend not to be very malleable.

5. On your statement about material and hardness rules - [Citation needed]

I think I hit the big ones, but I'm just going to go through and get everything, in case there's still some confusion. By description, Adamantine is a metal. I doubt anyone's debating that. Now, metals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal) tend to be good at two things- conducting heat and conducting electricity. Being good at conducting electricity necessitates a low resistance. You seem to be under the impression that Adamantine always forms a crystal. I'm going to explain why, if it's a metal, this is wrong. Metals in general tend to have what's known as a sea of electrons. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_bond) This sea consists of their outermost electrons, known as delocalized electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delocalized_electron), which have no one atom that they're associated with. This sea of electrons is what makes metals good conductors of heat and electricity. Crystals, on the other hand, tend to be formed with what are known as ionic or covalent bonds (these are separate types of bonds; the distinction is that they are not metallic). These bonds have discrete, quantifiable connections between given atoms, molecules, or ions. Crystals in particular have a defined shape and a rigid molecular structure. This means that they are not malleable. Note that. Crystals are not malleable. I'm not aware of a malleable crystal, nor am I aware of a metal that settles in a crystalline formation.

I'll let other people explain why you're wrong per RAW, but that's the majority of the reasons physics provides for you being wrong. Please, if you try a counter argument, do the following:
1) Read a physics book.
2) Cite your sources.
3) Don't make poor assumptions.

Like with pie!

Was going to say this if someone else didn't XD


Here's what I know about electricity:
- Yay Nikola Tesla!
- Boo Thomas Edison!
- Silver is the element that is best at conducting electricity! Followed by copper, then gold, then aluminum. We just use copper for wiring, etc., because it's absurdly cheaper than silver.
- Pure water is an insulator (i.e., not conductive at all)! The thing that causes to conduct electricity is all the impurities and crap in it, but pure water is an insulator.
- Salt water is a hundred times better a conductor than fresh water (NB "fresh," not "pure"), but it's a million times worse than silver.

...and...I'm out.

It's okay, you still know more than Toapat :smallmad:

[toapat]

3. Crystals don't tend one way or another in thermal conductivity, really. If anything, I'd suspect that they're poor conductors of heat due to their rigid structure having a hard time accepting increased kinetic energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat) to one particular area of the crystal. [Citation needed]

4. You seem to be confused as to what a crystal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal) is. They tend not to be very malleable.

5. On your statement about material and hardness rules - [Citation needed]

These specifically:
3: Crystals tend to be bad at conducting heat from outside themselves. They are exceptional at transfering it when it is inside.
4: Adamantine acts like a theoretical perfect material for working into weapons. It functions typically as a single perfect crystal, In RL, yes crystals are typically brittle, except for the recently invented Superdiamond.
5: Its not a significant error, and it only comes up if people know about it and have a **** DM. It shouldnt have been that way.

[RFLS]

These specifically:
3: Crystals tend to be bad at conducting heat from outside themselves. They are exceptional at transfering it when it is inside.
4: Adamantine acts like a theoretical perfect material for working into weapons. It functions typically as a single perfect crystal, In RL, yes crystals are typically brittle, except for the recently invented Superdiamond.
5: Its not a significant error, and it only comes up if people know about it and have a **** DM. It shouldnt have been that way.

3. [Citation needed]
4. [Citation needed]
5. [Citation still needed] (http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/OBJECTION.jpg)

EDIT: I like that your entire argument is predicated on IRL physics, but the instant it's convenient, you disregard how real world physics works. It's an....interesting tactic, to say the least.

[toapat]

3. [Citation needed]
4. [Citation needed]
5. [Citation still needed] (http://www.geekosystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/OBJECTION.jpg)

EDIT: I like that your entire argument is predicated on IRL physics, but the instant it's convenient, you disregard how real world physics works. It's an....interesting tactic, to say the least.

You do understand that entire post makes you sound like an afluent jerk?

Crystals are bad at conducting heat outside of themselves because their surfaces are atomically smooth (relatively), and so they have minimized surface area in which to absorb or disperse heat. Fluids are much better because they can actively maximize their contact area, but they do not transfer heat internally very efficiently, because they are loose masses of molecules, not a single unified mass.

Adamantine can pierce anything that isnt specifically magically reinforced that is printed. Crystals are more efficient at holding a shape then anything, but they typically are brittle along planes easily mapped through their molecular structure. Adamantine would have no such planes due to an extremely complex molecular structure of fractal nature. It would also have a relatively low (for a crystalline solid) melting temperature, because it can be worked without vaporizing the nearest blacksmith.

It was patched, shut up

[Qwertystop]

Player's Handbook 1, table 9-9, copy printed in 2003. Material is also available on the SRD, so this is legal to post under OGL, but this way you can't bring out the "recently patched (even though it's a dead system)" argument.
{TABLE]Substance|Hardness|Hit Points
Paper or cloth|0|2/inch of thickness
Rope|0|2/inch of thickness
Glass|1|1/inch of thickness
Ice|0|3/inch of thickness
Leather or hide|2|5/inch of thickness
Wood|5|10/inch of thickness
Stone|8|15/inch of thickness
Iron or steel|10|30/inch of thickness
Mithral|15|30/inch of thickness
Adamantine|20|40/inch of thickness[/TABLE]

So, where do you see anything about hardness scaling by size?

[Kazyan]

You do understand that entire post makes you sound like an afluent jerk?

Crystals are bad at conducting heat outside of themselves because their surfaces are atomically smooth (relatively), and so they have minimized surface area in which to absorb or disperse heat. Fluids are much better because they can actively maximize their contact area, but they do not transfer heat internally very efficiently, because they are loose masses of molecules, not a single unified mass.

Adamantine can pierce anything that isnt specifically magically reinforced that is printed. Crystals are more efficient at holding a shape then anything, but they typically are brittle along planes easily mapped through their molecular structure. Adamantine would have no such planes due to an extremely complex molecular structure of fractal nature. It would also have a relatively low (for a crystalline solid) melting temperature, because it can be worked without vaporizing the nearest blacksmith.

It was patched, shut up

Everything you're saying about adamantine right now is building on your previous statements, except that everyone else has been rejecting those statements, not accepting them, so you have to defend your "crystal" idea instead of going deeper into the science. We don't care why the crystals are behaving like they do. You have yet to prove that adamantine is what you're claiming it is; you're just asserting stuff and entirely ignoring other explanations.

EDIT: Oh, and adamantine can't ignore obdurium (Stronghold Builder's Guide), which is nonmagical and has hardness 30.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You do understand that entire post makes you sound like an afluent jerk?You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means...


Crystals are bad at conducting heat outside of themselves because their surfaces are atomically smooth (relatively), and so they have minimized surface area in which to absorb or disperse heat. Fluids are much better because they can actively maximize their contact area, but they do not transfer heat internally very efficiently, because they are loose masses of molecules, not a single unified mass.Which has what to do with the price of tea in china?


Adamantine can pierce anything that isnt specifically magically reinforced that is printed. Crystals are more efficient at holding a shape then anything, but they typically are brittle along planes easily mapped through their molecular structure. Adamantine would have no such planes due to an extremely complex molecular structure of fractal nature. It would also have a relatively low (for a crystalline solid) melting temperature, because it can be worked without vaporizing the nearest blacksmith.Adamantine is a Metal, not a crystal. Your entire argument is completely invalid. I could rebut or refute the rest of your arguments, but since they don't apply, there's really no point. It's clear you have no clue what you are talking about. Even Wikipedia has better data than you, and that's a user-edited document.


It was patched, shut up
[Citation Needed]

Specifically, link us where it was 'patched'. Since you are trying to use it as supporting evidence, the burden of proof is on you. Considering you are using the wrong terminology to begin with, I'm not even sure you know what actually constitutes a 'source', so it should be interesting to see what you come up with.

[Kazyan]

Adamantine is a Metal, not a crystal.

Metals can be (but aren't necessarily) crystals. Crystal structure is pretty well-ordered in pure metals. Incidentally, this is why they are soft and alloys are hard--disruption of the crystal structure causing holes and such. Along the internal fault lines when metal is bending, it's similar to the difference between sliding across laminated paper and gravel.

[toapat]

[Citation Needed]

Specifically, link us where it was 'patched'. Since you are trying to use it as supporting evidence, the burden of proof is on you. Considering you are using the wrong terminology to begin with, I'm not even sure you know what actually constitutes a 'source', so it should be interesting to see what you come up with.

you could tone down the snark.

Its a completely different rules disfunction that is entirely unrelated. Specifically, it is an Error with the Hardness rules that if used, and it is no longer correct because of the printings this year, then does Mountain Hammer count, because it is performing something that the specific rules do not allow for, which is hardness exceeding any realistic measure.

The table Querty presented is also not where the dysfunction lies (the table is used because it is simply faster), its entirely in the text.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: I'm not surprised that this thread has to be locked, I'm just surprised about why. Thread locked for review of all the flaming.