The debate of planar binding outsider beasts

[silverwolfer]

So I have asked three different places this question and got three different answers. Can you bind, Outsider creatures that only have animal level intelligence ?

[Cog]

So I have asked three different places this question and got three different answers. Can you bind, Outsider creatures that only have animal level intelligence ?
You can, though negotiating for services will be difficult and relatively abstract, likely requiring Handle Animal or some sort of appropriate communication spell.

What was the reasoning for not being able to?

[silverwolfer]

If they can't understand what you are saying, they can't do what you say.

Aka , a abyssal or celestial beast(animal), which would clearly have no real save against you , could not follow what you tell it , because it wouldn't understand fully what you want from it.


Am making a player made castle, and I want to bind a few lower intelligent creatures to stay in a spot till the end of time type thing.

[Deophaun]

Am making a player made castle, and I want to bind a few lower intelligent creatures to stay in a spot till the end of time type thing.
Elementals are good for this. But keep in mind, the conditions must be something they can complete, otherwise they're only bound for 1 day/level. Telling an elemental "Guard this room forever" is only going to last a few days. Saying "Kill the first thing that enters this room" could last anywhere from a couple rounds to the end of the multiverse.

[silverwolfer]

Hmm, then how do master wizards and evil master minds bind creatures that are to dumb to resist, till the end of time?

[Fyermind]

Planar binding + mind rape?
Edit: Planar binding perform simple task for me + make the creature forget what the task is and believe it's true goal now is to serve you (see houself from harry potter but only you can free it effect)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm, then how do master wizards and evil master minds bind creatures that are to dumb to resist, till the end of time?

They don't. Creatures that are that dumb are terrible guards.

He's better off crafting intelligent magical traps with useful or clever spell combinations. He otherwise uses mindless creatures that can't be decieved into betraying him. In both cases, the guardian is absolutely loyal.

Dealing with intelligent (even minimally so), independent creatures is reserved for fowarding the mastermind's machinations in the world outside of his fortress of solitude and personal amusements. In which case the creatures being conspired with or used like pawns are generally expendable or otherwise more dangerous to keep around longer than they're immediately useful than it's worth.

[Alleran]

Hmm, then how do master wizards and evil master minds bind creatures that are to dumb to resist, till the end of time?
They don't. Stupid minions are like putting up a giant "EVIL WIZARD HERE AT THE LOW LOW PRICE OF ONE HIGH-CR ENCOUNTER" sign for the next gang of murder-hobos to walk past.

Either make deals with the intelligent ones and have them order around the minions they control, always outside your Sanctum Sanctorum, or intimidate some average-INT minions for your own benefit with deals that they will find pleasing (e.g. if you want a succubus minion/harem, just promise them a steady supply of souls or mortals that they can suck dry and deliver to their Abyssal masters in exchange for their services... and keep them on a demiplane, just to be safe). And always, always ensure that you have at least three ways to return from death if you are ignominiously slain by the adventurers mentioned above.

[Erik Vale]

There should be a speak with animals spell somewhere. The question is wether you can persuade the dm it works with animal outsiders.
Or you find some way to boost it's intelligence to three. Then you just have a stupid but sentient one.

[Alleran]

There should be a speak with animals spell somewhere. The question is wether you can persuade the dm it works with animal outsiders.
Or you find some way to boost it's intelligence to three. Then you just have a stupid but sentient one.
Or cast Awaken. It's a 3d6 INT, but the creature is automatically friendly towards you, and will serve you in specific tasks and desires if you communicate what you want to it. And yes, that's the rules text of the spell.

[molten_dragon]

Aka , a abyssal or celestial beast(animal), which would clearly have no real save against you , could not follow what you tell it , because it wouldn't understand fully what you want from it.

Actually, the celestial and fiendish templates both give the creature a minimum intelligence of 3, which is high enough to be considered sentient. So while it would still be pretty dumb, it could understand what you want.

[Jeraa]

Actually, the celestial and fiendish templates both give the creature a minimum intelligence of 3, which is high enough to be considered sentient. So while it would still be pretty dumb, it could understand what you want.

Unless you are playing Pathfinder, where the Celestial/Fiendish/Entropic/Resolute templates don't change the base creatures ability scores at all.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Typically, silverwolfer, what you're describing (abyssal or celestial beasts of minimal intelligence, who are dumb to resist, serving you mindlessly) is best served by the Summon Monster line of spells. If you need them to happen at a specific time, use time-delayed traps. If you need them on command repeatedly, make these traps self-resetting.

Typically, this only serves as an effective kill room at the lower levels; otherwise, typically the best way to go about it is repeating traps of Planar Binding and Magic Circle Against X in a room full of Wights, so the creatures you summon become dumb (but not mindless), as undead created in such a way are typically easier to command (and more permanent) than intelligent servants. Again, a strategy best reserved for kill rooms.

[WinWin]

Planar Binding summons creatures with the Outsider or Elemental type.

animals with the celestial or fiendish template become magical beasts.

In PF, the celestial blessed, demon possessed or devil bound templates do not change the base creature type.

The PF simple templates, Celestial and Fiendish, do not reference a change in type. The text does suggest they can be summoned using Planar Ally though.

Share language, tongues and other spells can facilitate communication. Animals unable to grasp certain concepts could have their intelligence temporarily increased via the use of other magic.

Obviously the intent was for summoned celestial animals to be controllable, the rules do not provide a simple method to go about this. Even spells like Telepathic Bond require the creature has it's intelligence be increased before it can be effected.

[molten_dragon]

Unless you are playing Pathfinder, where the Celestial/Fiendish/Entropic/Resolute templates don't change the base creatures ability scores at all.

Didn't consider that. I tend to assume people are talking 3.5 unless they say otherwise, but I guess that's becoming less and less true over time.