Crystalline Creatures (3.5 template)

[Frathe]

Crystalline Creature
Crystalline creatures dwell deep underground, in silent environments of crystal trees and flowers that mimic the world above. Their diet consists solely of gems; they can subsist on basic, abundant quartz but prefer delicacies like rubies, sapphires and diamonds when they can get them. Crystalline creatures are tougher and better armored than the mundane creatures they resemble.

Creating A Crystalline Creature
"Crystalline" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature native to the Material Plane except aberrations (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A crystalline creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
The creature's type changes to elemental and it gains the earth subtype. Unlike most elementals, crystalline creatures eat, sleep, and breathe. Size is unchanged. Weight increases by x3. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points.

Armor Class
Natural armor improves by +4.

Damage
Crystalline creatures gain new natural weapons based on the creature's size and type and the weapon's type, as detailed in the table below. If their previous natural weapon dealt higher damage, use the higher value.

If the base creature has no natural attacks, it gains slam attacks.
{table=head]Size|Claw or Talon|Gore or Sting|Bite|Arm or Tentacle|Slam or Slap|Swarm

Fine|1d2|1d2|1|1|1|1d6 per CR/2 + 1
Diminutive|1d3|1d3|1d2|1d2|1d2|same as Fine
Tiny|1d4|1d4|1d3|1d3|1d3|same as Fine
Small|1d6|1d6|1d4|1d4|1d4|n/a
Medium|1d8|1d8|1d6|1d6|1d6|n/a
Large|2d6|2d6|1d8|1d8|1d8|n/a
Huge|3d6|3d6|2d6|2d6|2d6|n/a
Gargantuan|4d6|4d6|3d6|3d6|3d6|n/a
Colossal|5d6|5d6|4d6|4d6|4d6|n/a
[/table]

Abilities
A crystalline creature's Constitution increases by +6, its Strength increases by +2, and its Dexterity decreases by -2.

Special Qualities
A crystalline creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following special qualities. It gains the special abilities for its listed HD range plus all previous ones.
{table=head]Hit Dice|Damage Reduction|Special Abilities
1-3|—|—
4-8|2/bludgeoning or steel or mithral or adamantine|—
9-12|5/bludgeoning or mithral or adamantine|Gleam
13 or more|10/bludgeoning or adamantine|—
[/table]

Gleam (Ex): as the spell flare but may target multiple creatures; use 10 + 1 per HD for Fort save; may only be used if a light source to reflect is present; 3/day; CL 10

Darkvision out to 60 feet + 10 ft per size category.

Damage reduction (see table).

Immunity to poison, gases, and petrification.

Elemental type does not grant immunity to sleep effects (creatures who were immune stay immune; creatures who were not immune do not become immune)

Vulnerability to sonic damage (takes +50% damage).

Not affected by spells that target only humanoid creatures, such as enlarge person

Because of their extra weight, treated as a size larger for bull rush and grapple

If the base creature already has one or more of these special qualities, use the better value.

If a crystalline creature gains damage reduction, its natural weapons are treated as equivalent to adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Environment
Any underground area.

Variants
Gem Variants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14488195&postcount=36)

Challenge Rating
Same as the base creature +2 (minimum 3).

Alignment
Any.

Level Adjustment
Same as the base creature +2.

[Frathe]

I'm not sure what the CR and LA adjustments should be. I think, because the change to Con causes differences that scale with HD, that maybe it should vary by HD.

[AmberVael]

A suggestion for you- rather than giving a static bonus to the creature's natural weapon damage, why not increase it by an effective size category or two? It works out about the same in terms of added bonus, but also helps cut down on modifiers to keep track of, as you can just change the die once and be done with it.

As a random nitpick, I'm not sure 'wielding' natural weapons is a thing. Wielding is for something you can put down, and generally you don't want to put down your teeth or claws. :smalltongue:

I think I might call this Level Adjustment 2 rather than 3. It does have some nice bonuses, but there's not enough big stuff to really push it up to 3. Compare to Half-Fey (fiend folio) and Phrenic, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) which are generally considered to be worth their level adjustment.

I'd imagine you were comparing it to Half-Dragon, which is generally agreed to be a bit overpriced in terms of LA.

[Frathe]

A suggestion for you- rather than giving a static bonus to the creature's natural weapon damage, why not increase it by an effective size category or two? It works out about the same in terms of added bonus, but also helps cut down on modifiers to keep track of, as you can just change the die once and be done with it.



Like the monster feat Improved Natural Attack?




As a random nitpick, I'm not sure 'wielding' natural weapons is a thing. Wielding is for something you can put down, and generally you don't want to put down your teeth or claws. :smalltongue:



I worried about this, believe it or not, but thought it didn't really matter. :smallsmile:



I think I might call this Level Adjustment 2 rather than 3. It does have some nice bonuses, but there's not enough big stuff to really push it up to 3. Compare to Half-Fey (fiend folio) and Phrenic, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) which are generally considered to be worth their level adjustment.

I'd imagine you were comparing it to Half-Dragon, which is generally agreed to be a bit overpriced in terms of LA.

Ah, yes, I was going off the Half-Dragon, which had a similar bonus to natural armor.

Thank you for responding!

[lunaramblings]

Hey. Cool concept. Just for giggles, I am going to compare it in line to the Mineral Warrior Template from Underdark.




Creating A Crystalline Creature
"Crystalline" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature native to the Material Plane except aberrations (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A crystalline creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or skill points.


In contrast, the Mineral Warrior template simply adds the Earth subtype and is apparently open to any type, including abberations.




Armor Class
Natural armor improves by +4.

Mineral Warrior only gets +3 Natural Armor.


Damage
Any natural weapon of a crystalline creature gains improved damage, as if the creature's size had increased one category (see the monster feat Improved Natural Attack). Manufactured weapon attacks gain no bonus.

Mineral Warrior doesn't get this, but does get a weird smite-like ability to add Con to the attack roll and 1 damage per Racial Hit Die. Both are cool. But I like the Imp. Nat Attack better. Also, are you trying to say they get the Improved Natural Attack as a bonus feat for each of their weapons, or were you just trying to describe how the ability works?



Abilities
A crystalline creature's Constitution increases by +6, its Strength increases by +2, its Charisma increases by +2, and its Dexterity decreases by -2.

+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 to all the mentals. I am not sure I understand where the Cha bonus comes from on your template, it seems that a crystalline creature would be less emotive, and also strange looking, which to me suggests that if anything they should get a penalty to Cha, rather than a bonus.


Special Qualities
A crystalline creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following special properties.
{table=head]Hit Dice|Damage Reduction
1-3|—
4-8|—
9-12|5/adamantine
13 or more|10/adamantine
[/table]

Darkvision out to 60 feet.

Damage reduction (see table).

Immunity to dazzling effects.

Immunity to poison, gases, petrification, and mind-affecting attacks.

Vulnerability to sonic damage (takes +50% damage).

Spell resistance equal to the creature’s HD (maximum 20).

If the base creature already has one or more of these special qualities, use the better value.

If a crystalline creature gains damage reduction, its natural weapons are treated as equivalent to adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

The Mineral Warrior get DR 8/Adamantine out right. Yours caps a little higher, but starts out lower.

Yours get a slew of immunities and resistances that the Mineral Warrior doesn't, though honestly I am not sure where some of them come from. Where are the Spell Resistance and all of these immunities coming from? It seems like in the fluff you are describing basically an underground ecosystem of crystalline creatures. I am not sure where all the immunities fit into that? It would make more sense to me if they were created by some sort of evil wizard experiment, rather than just an ecosystem deep under the world.

Abilities
Same as the base creature.

Environment
Any underground area.

Challenge Rating
Same as the base creature +2 (minimum 3).

Alignment
Any.

Level Adjustment
Same as the base creature +3.[/QUOTE]

Overall, I think +3 is kinda high. Mineral Warrior is only +1. The immunities are similar to those of a warforged or a necropolitan, both of which are technically +0 though the Necro costs you a level when you complete the ritual.

At best I would peg it as a +2, though depending, I could see it as a high +1, especially if you reconsider some of the Spell Resistances and Immunities.

[Tanuki Tales]

I am not sure I understand where the Cha bonus comes from on your template, it seems that a crystalline creature would be less emotive, and also strange looking, which to me suggests that if anything they should get a penalty to Cha, rather than a bonus.


I'd wager it's because the creature becomes more pretty to look at, being made of living crystal and all.

[Frathe]

Hey. Cool concept. Just for giggles, I am going to compare it in line to the Mineral Warrior Template from Underdark.

I'm glad you like the idea!






Mineral Warrior doesn't get this, but does get a weird smite-like ability to add Con to the attack roll and 1 damage per Racial Hit Die. Both are cool. But I like the Imp. Nat Attack better. Also, are you trying to say they get the Improved Natural Attack as a bonus feat for each of their weapons, or were you just trying to describe how the ability works?

It's just for description; otherwise I would say they got the feat. I've changed the description to try to make it clearer.



+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 to all the mentals. I am not sure I understand where the Cha bonus comes from on your template, it seems that a crystalline creature would be less emotive, and also strange looking, which to me suggests that if anything they should get a penalty to Cha, rather than a bonus.


Troll Bräu's guess about this is correct. They look pretty!



The Mineral Warrior get DR 8/Adamantine out right. Yours caps a little higher, but starts out lower.

Yours get a slew of immunities and resistances that the Mineral Warrior doesn't, though honestly I am not sure where some of them come from. Where are the Spell Resistance and all of these immunities coming from? It seems like in the fluff you are describing basically an underground ecosystem of crystalline creatures. I am not sure where all the immunities fit into that? It would make more sense to me if they were created by some sort of evil wizard experiment, rather than just an ecosystem deep under the world.


Well, I could change the fluff. For example, they could inhabit a strange crystalline demiplane, a slightly... off mirror of the real world, created by the experiments of a powerful ancient wizard (not necessarily evil).

Let me try to explain the immunities, though. They're immune to dazzling effects because the light is reflected and refracted into harmlessness by their crystals. I considered having them actually reflect light based attacks back at the attacker, but that seems kind of gimmicky. They're immune to poison and the like because they're made of crystal, not flesh, and because the prismasaurus, the main crystalline creature I could find to base this on, is. I think it's obvious why they can't be petrified; they're already basically made of a type of stone. Higher HD crystalline creatures are made of harder crystals and gain resistance to all but adamantine weapons because they are made of a substance that's basically living diamond (the hardest type of crystal), and that can't be cut or harmed by the likes of mere iron or steel. I guess to be realistic, those ones probably should be vulnerable to bludgeoning, sonic, elemental, and magic damage.

One thing I will admit: I don't have any good reason for the spell resistance or immunity to mind-affecting effects. I just copied those from things I was basing this on, Fiendish creatures and the prismasaurus, respectively. I should probably get rid of those.



Overall, I think +3 is kinda high. Mineral Warrior is only +1. The immunities are similar to those of a warforged or a necropolitan, both of which are technically +0 though the Necro costs you a level when you complete the ritual.

At best I would peg it as a +2, though depending, I could see it as a high +1, especially if you reconsider some of the Spell Resistances and Immunities.

Yeah, good call. I'll change that. As I said above, I was basing it on the (probably overpriced, to quote Vael) Half-Dragon.

[AmberVael]

Like the monster feat Improved Natural Attack?
Yes, exactly like that.


I worried about this, believe it or not, but thought it didn't really matter. :smallsmile:
It really doesn't. :smallwink:


They're immune to poison and the like because they're made of crystal, not flesh, and because the prismasaurus, the main crystalline creature I could find to base this on, is. I think it's obvious why they can't be petrified; they're already basically made of a type of stone.

In reading this, and looking at the template again, I think you might be well served to look at the Elemental and Construct types, and consider whether the template should grant one of those types, or alternately, take some inspiration from what kind of immunities those types grant.

[Frathe]

In reading this, and looking at the template again, I think you might be well served to look at the Elemental and Construct types, and consider whether the template should grant one of those types, or alternately, take some inspiration from what kind of immunities those types grant.

I like the idea of changing it to give Elemental type. It makes sense--these move, live and have motives, the same way elementals do, and like elementals, they are entirely composed of a single substance that isn't usually alive. And it would simplify the entry a lot, and give the immunities more of a basis in existing rules.

They could even be from an elemental plane resembling the 3.0e and earlier Quasi-Elemental plane of Mineral.

I wouldn't want to give it Construct type, because unlike constructs, these are still basically living creatures that eat and can be affected by death effects and the like.

UPDATE: I went ahead and converted the template to use the Elemental type. I just hope it doesn't have any consequences I'm missing.

[Debihuman]

DR 10/magic supersedes bludgeoning and adamantine unless I am mistaken. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have all three listed, unless it can only be hit by magical weapons that do bludgeoning damage and that are made of adamantine which is too nitpicky.

Debby

[Frathe]

DR 10/magic supersedes bludgeoning and adamantine unless I am mistaken. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have all three listed, unless it can only be hit by magical weapons that do bludgeoning damage and that are made of adamantine which is too nitpicky.

Debby

It's meant to be that any of those work. Maybe I misunderstood what was going on in what I based that part on, the d20srd Lich. Can Liches only be hurt with magical bludgeoning weapons? I thought it meant magical or bludgeoning.



Damage Reduction (Su)
A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

[AmberVael]

Damage reduction can come in either type- that is, either the damage must be both types, or it can be one or the other type.

For example, the entry for Balor shows it having Damage Reduction 15/Cold Iron and Good, meaning you must have a good aligned, cold iron weapon to overcome its DR.

Bearded Devil, meanwhile, has Damage Reduction 5/Silver or Good, which means you can bypass its DR with silver weapons, or with good aligned weapons.

So for your damage reduction, you just want to replace "and" with "or." I would advise it to just be DR x/Bludgeoning or Adamantine though, don't throw magic in the mix there.

[Debihuman]

You have to decide between "and" and "or" with your damage reduction. If you separate them with an "or" it means that if you hit it with bludgeoning weapon, it takes full damage. If you hit with an adamantine weapon it takes full damage and if you hit it with a magic weapon, it takes full damage.

If you put "and" there instead it means you have to have a bludgeoning, adamantine, magic weapon in order to hit it.

You cannot use commas in this instance because it's not clear what you are trying to say.

Debby

[Frathe]

Okay, if that's how it works, then I understand the distinction. I think I'll do "Bludgeoning or Adamantine", as Vael suggested.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Let me just start off this commentary by saying this template is really cool. I really like the concept of a purely crystal PC. However, I usually play Pathfinder instead of 3.5, so forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions about the system.


Armor Class
Natural armor improves by +4.

4 NA is quite a bit at low level, but not much at high level; perhaps you could scale it, or have it change depending on what kind of crystal the creature is?


Damage

I would have thought a crystalline creature would gain its own slashing natural attacks (slashing with a jagged edge of a crystal), in addition to (or instead of) capitalizing on natural attacks it already has, if it has any.


Abilities
A crystalline creature's Constitution increases by +6, its Strength increases by +2, its Charisma increases by +2, and its Dexterity decreases by -2.

I think here is where it would be helpful to make distinctions for different types of crystals. Perhaps a diamond crystalline creature would get a massive Charisma boost, unlike a quartz creature, but a gypsum (softer crystal) creature would get a dex boost for being more flexible. Also, have you considered also applying the construct template, removing the constitution score entirely?


If a crystalline creature gains damage reduction... I think you have a typo here. It should either read "When a crystalline creature gains damage reduction" or "If a crystalline creature gains damage reduction from a source other than its racial abilities".

[Frathe]

Let me just start off this commentary by saying this template is really cool. I really like the concept of a purely crystal PC. However, I usually play Pathfinder instead of 3.5, so forgive me if I make any incorrect assumptions about the system.


I'm glad you like the template! Don't worry, from what I hear PF and 3.5 are pretty much the same mechanics-wise.



4 NA is quite a bit at low level, but not much at high level; perhaps you could scale it, or have it change depending on what kind of crystal the creature is?

That might be a good idea; I could have it scale with HD. That's part of what the DR is for, though.



I would have thought a crystalline creature would gain its own slashing natural attacks (slashing with a jagged edge of a crystal), in addition to (or instead of) capitalizing on natural attacks it already has, if it has any.


And I might just change it to do that. It probably makes more sense that way.



I think here is where it would be helpful to make distinctions for different types of crystals. Perhaps a diamond crystalline creature would get a massive Charisma boost, unlike a quartz creature, but a gypsum (softer crystal) creature would get a dex boost for being more flexible. Also, have you considered also applying the construct template, removing the constitution score entirely?


Vael suggested that above, actually, but I thought Elemental would be a better fit. After all, they aren't constructed! Then again, I suppose they are rather golem-like in their composition. And using Construct might simplify things. But part of the fluff was that they eat gems, and constructs don't eat. :smallfrown:
EDIT: Wait a moment, elementals don't either.

I like your idea of different types of crystal with different ability modifiers. More work for me, though. :smalltongue: I might make up a table and paste it in there, and have these subcategories the same way the different half-dragon types are all subcategories of the Half-Dragon template.



I think you have a typo here. It should either read "When a crystalline creature gains damage reduction" or "If a crystalline creature gains damage reduction from a source other than its racial abilities".

I'm just using the format the d20SRD does; except for the word crystalline, my line is exactly the same as a line in the Fiendish Creature template. I think it's meant to mean the same thing as when would. And because it's Hit Dice based, crystalline creatures aren't guaranteed to get any DR at all, so it arguably should be if.

[lunaramblings]

Hi Frathe. So I was doing some NPC building this evening and was using the Feral Template, which I think might be a good basis for comparison. Again gonna break it down in line.

Yes it is sorta on the bubble of 3.0/3.5 but as it was never updated, it is still totally good to go by the rules.



Armor Class
Natural armor improves by +4.

The Feral template gives +6 Natural Armor, also gives a boost in land speed of +10.



Damage
Any natural weapon of a crystalline creature gains improved damage, as if the creature's size had increased one category (similar to the monster feat Improved Natural Attack). Manufactured weapon attacks gain no bonus.

Gains 2 claws. Damage based on size as appropriate. Also grants several special attacks based on their hit dice, specifically not Racial.

1-3: Improved Grab
4-7: Pounce
8-11: Rake
12+: Rend

I consider this far and away better than the pseudo-improved Natural Attack feat. Which really only pays off in a meaningful way if you have multiple natural attacks to benefit it, otherwise it is essentially a bonus feat. Also only usable by creatures with natural attacks in the first place, which eliminates the vast majority of PC races. I mention this as LA really only impacts PCs.



Abilities
A crystalline creature's Constitution increases by +6, its Strength increases by +2, its Charisma increases by +2, and its Dexterity decreases by -2.

The Crystalline creature definitely wins out here. +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis. Basically you end up with a net of +2 compared to +8.



Special Qualities
A crystalline creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following special properties.
{table=head]Hit Dice|Damage Reduction
1-3|—
4-8|—
9-12|5/bludgeoning or adamantine
13 or more|10/bludgeoning or adamantine
[/table]

Darkvision out to 60 feet.

Damage reduction (see table).

Immunity to dazzling effects.

Immunity to poison, gases, and petrification.

Vulnerability to sonic damage (takes +50% damage).

If the base creature already has one or more of these special qualities, use the better value.

If a crystalline creature gains damage reduction, its natural weapons are treated as equivalent to adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Ok, they don't get DR or the immunities, but they do get scaling Fast Healing, which I prefer over DR personally as it can't be circumvented by magic and such as easily. Also scaling Dark Vision.

At this point I am leaning toward the Crystalline template being a very high +1. None of the immunities are particularly common, gases probably being the most useful, poisons are generally pretty easily dealt with as the DCs arent generally sky high. Maybe I am just a little crazy, but I really think that this could pass as a high +1.

[Frathe]

Gains 2 claws. Damage based on size as appropriate. Also grants several special attacks based on their hit dice, specifically not Racial.

1-3: Improved Grab
4-7: Pounce
8-11: Rake
12+: Rend

I consider this far and away better than the pseudo-improved Natural Attack feat. Which really only pays off in a meaningful way if you have multiple natural attacks to benefit it, otherwise it is essentially a bonus feat. Also only usable by creatures with natural attacks in the first place, which eliminates the vast majority of PC races. I mention this as LA really only impacts PCs.

As I said above, I'm going to replace the feat-like mechanic with a slashing natural weapon that will apply even to PC races that don't start out with natural weapons. Of course, I can't do something quite as simple as the Feral template did, because I can't rely on the resulting creature making sense as something with two claws (think of a crystalline octopus), or any specific arrangement of natural weapons.

Now that I've seen the Feral template, I might add comparable special attacks that are tied to hit dice.



Ok, they don't get DR or the immunities, but they do get scaling Fast Healing, which I prefer over DR personally as it can't be circumvented by magic and such as easily. Also scaling Dark Vision.

Well, fast healing doesn't make a whole lot of sense as an ability for a creature made of crystal. I could convert the Darkvision to scale, though; what does it scale with? Hit Dice or size?



At this point I am leaning toward the Crystalline template being a very high +1. None of the immunities are particularly common, gases probably being the most useful, poisons are generally pretty easily dealt with as the DCs arent generally sky high. Maybe I am just a little crazy, but I really think that this could pass as a high +1.

I can definitely see the argument for a high +1. I'm just not sure at this point, to be honest.

I'm also torn on if I should have the type change to Elemental or Construct. Any opinions on which one makes more sense?

EDIT: Now, after looking up the 4e shardmind and seeing that they are "Living Constructs," I'm heavily leaning towards using a slightly modified Construct.

[Frathe]

{table=head]Size|Claw or Talon|Gore or Sting|Bite|Arm or Tentacle|Slam or Slap|Hand or Fist

Fine|1d2|1d2|1|1|1|1
Diminutive|1d3|1d3|1d2|1d2|1d2|1d2
Tiny|1d4|1d4|1d3|1d3|1d3|1d3
Small|1d6|1d6|1d4|1d4|1d4|1d4
Medium|1d8|1d8|1d6|1d6|1d6|1d6
Large|2d6|2d6|1d8|1d8|1d8|1d8
Huge|3d6|3d6|2d6|2d6|2d6|2d6
Gargantuan|4d6|4d6|3d6|3d6|3d6|3d6
Colossal|5d6|5d6|4d6|4d6|4d6|4d6
[/table]

How does this look for revised natural weapons? It's loosely based on Half-Dragon's. I realize there's a lot of duplication of the numbers, but I thought it would easier to read and change this way.

Humanoids would receive the equivalent of 2 claws hands.

[Deepbluediver]

I like the idea behind this. For some reason, I picure it spreading like a disease, slowly converting every creature into living stone.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080724144437/wowwiki/images/d/d7/Crystalsong_Forest.jpg

A lot of the comments I was going to make have already been said by luna and Atilla, but let me try to chime in on a few things anyway.

The +2 bonus to Charisma: I'm on the fence about this one. Yes the creatures might be very shiny, but I've always played it so that Charisma really meant your force of personality. The king's general, victor of 100 battles, is covered in scars and worn looking from living a life always on the edge of death, but his very presence has a weight to it that attracts the attention of every in the room.

If you wanted to keep this, I might scrap the flat charisma bonus, and just give it boosts to Diplomacy, Bluff and/or Intimidate. If they are very sparkly and shiny and solid and heavy, maybe give them a penalty to Hide/Move Silently (or Stealth, if PF).

A +2 LA for a net gain of +8 to stats plus other bonuses, but I admit at not being very skilled in LA evaluation. The best argument I can make is that the LA system is kind of screwy, with no clear formula for many of the changes. If you make more of the features scale with HD, the static bonus becomes a better match for a wider range of CR (IMHO anway).

I was thinking about just going with an earth-subtype as well, but aparently this was already discussed and changed.
The only major changes, I think, are that crystaline creatures might be target by different spells (i.e. they can't be affected by things like "enlarge person" but they might be vulnerable to "Transmute Rock to Mud". They might (still) have an earth subtype.
Also, creatures made of stone are frequently heavier than similarly-sized non-rock counterparts; do your crystaline creatures have any changes to weight? If so, maybe they should also have penalties to jump/fly/swim checks, or a slower-than normal movement speed, or a bonus to something like a grapple and bullrush (if not a numeric bonus, then maybe they are treated as one size larger in some situations, as another poster mentioned).

I like the scaling DR; I think that many of the templates don't scale well, and I'd love to see MORE features that increased with either HD or CR (HD numbers for tougher creatures can get wonky, hence the change to CR of the base creature).
I would probably make the following tweaks.

1-3 :: nada (no change)
4-8 :: 2/bludgeoning or steel (i.e. wooden weapons, have no effect)
9-12 :: 5/bludgeoning or mithral
13 :: 10/bludgeoning or adamantine

That way it plays out like they get harder as they get bigger.
Maybe make them immune to nonlethal damage at some level as well.

Why are they immune to dazzling? I'm just not sure where this comes from. Maybe change it to something like "when in the presence of a crystaline creature in an area of bright light, any non-crystaline creature must make a Will save (DC 15) to avoid being dazzled for one round".

I understand the other immunitieis, but elementals also get an immunity to sleep affects and don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe. How much of this, if any, did you intend to include along with the change in type to elemental?


With regards to the natural-weapons damage table: if it's similar to other published sources then I assume the balance is similar. The only thing to keep in mind is that creature-size does not correlate exactly to Challenge rating; you might consider some alternative for small but high CR creatures.

I'm more concerned about every creature gaining natural weapons. I read the section on slashing with sharp-crystals, but from the description in your first post, I didn't think the creature changed shape that much.

There is a difference between scraping yourself on a sharp rock and being struck with actual claw-type weapons.
Exhibit A: http://terrystuff.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/lava-rock.jpg

Exhibit B: http://www.educationalbiofacts.com/images/CL324-Grizzly-Bear-Claw.jpg

Since being punched by a crystaline humanoid is pretty much the equivalent of being beaten with a stone, why not just let their unarmed strikes deal lethal damage?


Anywho, I think that's all I have to say atm. I'll check back in later if I come up with anything different.

[Frathe]

I like the idea behind this. For some reason, I picure it spreading like a disease, slowly converting every creature into living stone.

Well, I could take a stab a creating a disease that turned you into one. Nice picture, by the way. Where'd you get it?



A lot of the comments I was going to make have already been said by luna and Atilla, but let me try to chime in on a few things anyway.

The +2 bonus to Charisma: I'm on the fence about this one. Yes the creatures might be very shiny, but I've always played it so that Charisma really meant your force of personality. The king's general, victor of 100 battles, is covered in scars and worn looking from living a life always on the edge of death, but his very presence has a weight to it that attracts the attention of every in the room.

If you wanted to keep this, I might scrap the flat charisma bonus, and just give it boosts to Diplomacy, Bluff and/or Intimidate. If they are very sparkly and shiny and solid and heavy, maybe give them a penalty to Hide/Move Silently (or Stealth, if PF).

That seems reasonable. Straight from the SRD, though (emphasis mine):



Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.




A +2 LA for a net gain of +8 to stats plus other bonuses, but I admit at not being very skilled in LA evaluation. The best argument I can make is that the LA system is kind of screwy, with no clear formula for many of the changes. If you make more of the features scale with HD, the static bonus becomes a better match for a wider range of CR (IMHO anway).

I was thinking about just going with an earth-subtype as well, but aparently this was already discussed and changed.
The only major changes, I think, are that crystaline creatures might be target by different spells (i.e. they can't be affected by things like "enlarge person" but they might be vulnerable to "Transmute Rock to Mud". They might (still) have an earth subtype.
Also, creatures made of stone are frequently heavier than similarly-sized non-rock counterparts; do your crystaline creatures have any changes to weight? If so, maybe they should also have penalties to jump/fly/swim checks, or a slower-than normal movement speed, or a bonus to something like a grapple and bullrush (if not a numeric bonus, then maybe they are treated as one size larger in some situations, as another poster mentioned).

An increase in weight and grapple/bullrush would be logical, agreed. And I like the idea of enlarge person not working, transmute rock to mud dealing damage, and other spells having other modified effects.



I like the scaling DR; I think that many of the templates don't scale well, and I'd love to see MORE features that increased with either HD or CR (HD numbers for tougher creatures can get wonky, hence the change to CR of the base creature).
I would probably make the following tweaks.

1-3 :: nada (no change)
4-8 :: 2/bludgeoning or steel (i.e. wooden weapons, have no effect)
9-12 :: 5/bludgeoning or mithral
13 :: 10/bludgeoning or adamantine

That way it plays out like they get harder as they get bigger.
Maybe make them immune to nonlethal damage at some level as well.


I like the idea of them getting harder as HD increases (or CR, if I change to that). I'd just add the modification that 4-8 can be hurt by steel or harder (so mithral or adamantine would work), 9-12 could also be hit with adamantine, and so on like that. I realize you most likely meant that, but right now you technically couldn't hurt a 4-8 with adamantine (only steel or bludgeoning).

And I'll probably try to add more scaling features. I'm glad you like the DR.



Why are they immune to dazzling? I'm just not sure where this comes from. Maybe change it to something like "when in the presence of a crystaline creature in an area of bright light, any non-crystaline creature must make a Will save (DC 15) to avoid being dazzled for one round".

I understand the other immunitieis, but elementals also get an immunity to sleep affects and don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe. How much of this, if any, did you intend to include along with the change in type to elemental?

As I said above, they're immune to dazzling because the light reflects off them. It seems to confuse people, though; maybe I should just give higher HD or CR creatures a special dazzling attack that can only be used in bright environments instead.

I probably did want these to eat and sleep, so I would have to have a few exceptions to their type. Neither of the two type options I was considering (Construct or Elemental) eat, sleep or breathe, so either way I would have to make modifications.



With regards to the natural-weapons damage table: if it's similar to other published sources then I assume the balance is similar. The only thing to keep in mind is that creature-size does not correlate exactly to Challenge rating; you might consider some alternative for small but high CR creatures.

I'm more concerned about every creature gaining natural weapons. I read the section on slashing with sharp-crystals, but from the description in your first post, I didn't think the creature changed shape that much.

There is a difference between scraping yourself on a sharp rock and being struck with actual claw-type weapons.
Exhibit A: http://terrystuff.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/lava-rock.jpg

Exhibit B: http://www.educationalbiofacts.com/images/CL324-Grizzly-Bear-Claw.jpg

Since being punched by a crystaline humanoid is pretty much the equivalent of being beaten with a stone, why not just let their unarmed strikes deal lethal damage?


Anywho, I think that's all I have to say atm. I'll check back in later if I come up with anything different.

Yeah, I suppose to be safe I should add exceptions and qualifiers to the natural weapons table for creatures under a certain size but over a certain CR, and maybe for swarms too.

Remember, these guys have pointyish crystals all over, so it's not quite like getting punched by a smooth rock. I do see your point, though; however, an Medium unarmed strike would do quite a lot less damage than a crystalline claw, even if that was lethal damage (1d3 vs. 1d8). Instead, I might create a Hand or Fist category for the table, that's equivalent to the lower-damage bludgeoning sections like Slam or Slap.

EDIT: Change of plans, I realized that they couldn't both keep the original creature's shape and have spikes of any significant size. I'm going with a texture more like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/QuartzUSGOV.jpg
As a work of the U.S. federal government, the image is public domain.Now the increased damage will come from increased hardness.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Well, I could take a stab a creating a disease that turned you into one. Nice picture, by the way. Where'd you get it?

Unless my eyes deceive me, that's a screenshot from the latest World of Warcraft expansion. Dread Wastes zone, no? No other game has textures that blocky and yet still detailed. Besides, I think I killed a couple... dozen...hundred or so quest mobs there.

[Deepbluediver]

Unless my eyes deceive me, that's a screenshot from the latest World of Warcraft expansion. Dread Wastes zone, no? No other game has textures that blocky and yet still detailed. Besides, I think I killed a couple... dozen...hundred or so quest mobs there.

Crystalsong Forest, actually, but good eye anyhow. It's one of the Northrend areas. A google image wsearch will find you plenty more.


Well, I could take a stab a creating a disease that turned you into one. Nice picture, by the way. Where'd you get it?
Nah, the template is fine as is. I'm pretty sure that a stone-inducing disease is the plot of some movie/tv show/manga/novel, but I just kind of like the idea of a campaign searching out the cause and cure for some disease.


That seems reasonable. Straight from the SRD, though (emphasis mine):

Charisma is the hardest stat to define, and it's mostly personal opinion, I admit that, but it seems that any benefit from being shiny would be countered by the inherent weirdness of the situation of a crystaline creature. Still, it's your fix and you can do what you want.


I like the idea of them getting harder as HD increases (or CR, if I change to that). I'd just add the modification that 4-8 can be hurt by steel or harder (so mithral or adamantine would work), 9-12 could also be hit with adamantine, and so on like that. I realize you most likely meant that, but right now you technically couldn't hurt a 4-8 with adamantine (only steel or bludgeoning).

Yeah, that's what I meant. I normally stick the basic, simple things, so I'm not familiar with the more complex forms of DR.

[Debihuman]

Crystalline Humanoids would just get 2 slams like other templated Humanoids, it doesn't make sense to add an attack that doesn't otherwise exist especially since it does the exact same damage as a slam. Perhaps you should state this:
If the base creature has no natural attacks, it gains slam attacks.

Debby

[Frathe]

Crystalline Humanoids would just get 2 slams like other templated Humanoids, it doesn't make sense to add an attack that doesn't otherwise exist especially since it does the exact same damage as a slam. Perhaps you should state this:
If the base creature has no natural attacks, it gains slam attacks.

Debby

Oh, thanks, I didn't know about that. I was wondering how you were supposed to template Humanoids. That makes more sense.


I've made most of the changes that were suggested. Did I miss anything, or does anyone have more suggestions?

[Frathe]

Does anyone have ideas for more special abilities?

[TuggyNE]

Does "no immunity to sleep effects" override a base creature's immunity (i.e., crystalline elf)?

Not sure why you don't just add the (earth) subtype, rather than mentioning that it's affected by spells as though it had it.

[Frathe]

Does "no immunity to sleep effects" override a base creature's immunity (i.e., crystalline elf)?

No, that's just meant to override the Elemental type sleep immunity. I'll add a note to be clearer.



Not sure why you don't just add the (earth) subtype, rather than mentioning that it's affected by spells as though it had it.

Because creatures of the earth subtype usually have burrow speeds and are connected to the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Strictly speaking, I should say that spells that affect "earth or stone creatures" affect them, because (for example) stone golems don't have the earth subtype but would be affected by certain spells like stone to flesh, while a Blue Dragon that does have the Earth subtype would not be affected.

[TuggyNE]

No, that's just meant to override the Elemental type sleep immunity. I'll add a note to be clearer.

That's roughly what I figured.


Because creatures of the earth subtype usually have burrow speeds and are connected to the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Fair enough, although since those are only general principles, it's not that big a deal I'd think to make an exception.


Strictly speaking, I should say that spells that affect "earth or stone creatures" affect them, because (for example) stone golems don't have the earth subtype but would be affected by certain spells like stone to flesh, while a Blue Dragon that does have the Earth subtype would not be affected.

Stone golems have a specific (and unusual) interaction with stone to flesh that probably shouldn't be mimicked by any other creatures except in truly exceptional cases. I don't think this is one of those cases, because the crystalline creature already is living, unlike the golem.

[Frathe]

Fair enough, although since those are only general principles, it's not that big a deal I'd think to make an exception.

Stone golems have a specific (and unusual) interaction with stone to flesh that probably shouldn't be mimicked by any other creatures except in truly exceptional cases. I don't think this is one of those cases, because the crystalline creature already is living, unlike the golem.

Yeah, those both make sense. Stone to flesh probably shouldn't work (and I don't need to specify that it doesn't), and I'll add an earth subtype.

[Frathe]

Here's an attempt at using the template!

1st-Level Quarzon* Warrior

Size/Type: Medium Elemental (Augmented Humanoid, Earth, Elf)
Hit Dice: 1d8+3 (7 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+0 Dex, +3 studded leather, +1 light shield, +4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+7*
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Elven traits, crystalline traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +0, Will -1*
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +2, Search +3, Spot +2
Feats: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Environment: Underground caverns or crystalline forest
Organization: Solitary (wanderer), bands (2-8), or village (30-100 plus 20% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and 3 7th-level captains)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Gems
Alignment: Usually good or neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +2
*Crystalline humanoids are commonly called "quarzons"

This one is an elf with the template applied.

Suggested Quarzon character names: Heliodor, Sardonyx, Cornelian, Amethyst, Peridot, Zircon, Chalcedony

[TuggyNE]

Size/Type: Medium Elemental (Earth)
Hit Dice: 1d8+6 (10 hp)

Shouldn't it still have the Elf subtype, to make sure bane weapons and the like still function*? Also, something's wonky with the HP.

Edit: Hmm... should perhaps have augmented humanoid in there too. And I guess by RAW, bane/favored enemy might not work anyway... that doesn't seem right.

[Frathe]

How's it now, tuggyne?

[TuggyNE]

How's it now, tuggyne?

Yeah, that's better, although the usual formatting is a bit more like "Medium Elemental (Earth, Augmented Humanoid, Elf)". (Give or take.) :smallsmile:

[Debihuman]

Yeah, that's better, although the usual formatting is a bit more like "Medium Elemental (Earth, Augmented Humanoid, Elf)". (Give or take.) :smallsmile:

Subtypes go in alphabetical order.

Medium Elemental (Augmented Humanoid, Earth, Elf)

Debby

[Frathe]

Optional Gem Variants:

Diamond Creatures
As crystalline creatures, but with an additional +2 to Cha, Con, and natural armor, and -2 to Dex. They also gain the Gleam special ability at 4 HD instead of 9. Add +1 to CR and LA.

Gypsum Creatures
As crystalline creatures, but with an additional +2 to Dex, and -2 to natural armor (so the base creature only receives +2 to natural armor).

Quartz Creatures
Same as standard crystalline creatures.

Birthstones

Garnet
+2 to Diplomacy

Amethyst
+2 to Intelligence, immunity to fear effects. Add +1 to CR and LA.

Aquamarine
Gains swim speed equal to base land speed. If the base creature had a Swim speed, use the faster of the two.

Diamond
See above

Emerald
+2 insight bonus to AC

Moonstone
Gains Gleam at 1 HD

Ruby
+1 to natural armor, +2 to Con. Add +1 to CR and LA.

Peridot
Immunity to mind-affecting effects

Sapphire
+1 to natural armor, +2 sacred bonus to AC. Add +1 to CR and LA.

Tourmaline
Gleam is replaced by Rainbow Pattern, as the spell of the same name; substitute Will save for Fort save

Citrine
+2 to Fort and Will

Zircon
+2 to Heal, +2 to Will

Unless otherwise noted, bonuses are racial.

[Frathe]

Anyone have ideas for more? I need both specific gems/minerals and what bonuses/penalties they would get to their abilities.

[Deepbluediver]

I unfortunately got to run atm, or I'd help out more, but here is a list of Precious and Semiprecious gemstones (http://www.gemselect.com/other-info/gemstone-list.php) that you can mine for ideas (ha. ha. ha. :smallsigh:)

If that's too expansive, maybe start with all the commonly named Birthstones (http://www.americangemsociety.org/birthstones). They include many of the most commonly-known gemstones, and frequently include a list of what categories each stone is supposed to embody.

[Frathe]

Birthstone gem variants are up! Any comments? They're based mostly on this website (http://www.americangemsociety.org/birthstones).

[Debihuman]

CR of your sample creature should be 3 as the Template specifically states CR 3 is minimum.

Debby

[TuggyNE]

Diamond Creatures
As crystalline creatures, but with an additional +2 to Cha, Con, and natural armor, and -2 to Dex. They also gain the Gleam special ability at 4 HD instead of 9.
[...]
Birthstones

Need some LA/CR adjustments on these, since there's enough of a power increase they may not be exactly the same as the normal template. (The quartz/gypsum varieties are close enough not to matter.) Diamond, in particular, is probably easily worth another +1.

[Frathe]

Debi: I fixed the sample's CR.

I added +1 to LA and CR for several of the gem variants. Any others need the adjustment? Do any of them not deserve it?

[TuggyNE]

Debi: I fixed the sample's CR.

I added +1 to LA and CR for several of the gem variants. Any others need the adjustment? Do any of them not deserve it?

Amethyst could maybe use it. Other than that, they seem ... reasonable? Probably ready for playtesting, honestly. :smallsmile:

[Byzantine]

I like this. It's got a nice theme and it's useful for making unique creatures. I'm personally not sure if the variants are required, but they're a good option to have around. I'd have to play around with the template a little to really get a feel for how well it goes with a PC, but overall, I think it's a good piece of 'brew.

As far as the bonus to bull rush and grapple, I'm thinking it might be easier to give them the Powerful Build racial feature. Replicated here for ease.

Powerful Build: The physical stature of a creature lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a creature is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the creature is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A creature is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A creature can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

I will let you decide if it fits with your concept of the template.

[Temotei]

First thing I thought of when I saw this was Adventure Time. :smallbiggrin:

Looks cool. I might use this in the future. I'll tell you how it goes if I do.

[Frathe]

I like this. It's got a nice theme and it's useful for making unique creatures. I'm personally not sure if the variants are required, but they're a good option to have around. I'd have to play around with the template a little to really get a feel for how well it goes with a PC, but overall, I think it's a good piece of 'brew.

As far as the bonus to bull rush and grapple, I'm thinking it might be easier to give them the Powerful Build racial feature. Replicated here for ease.

Powerful Build: The physical stature of a creature lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a creature is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the creature is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A creature is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A creature can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

I will let you decide if it fits with your concept of the template.

I'm glad you like it.

Thanks for the suggestion, but the bonus was meant to just simulate greater density, nothing else, and for my purposes it'd seem a little weird if they got to wield larger weapons and such.

[Frathe]

First thing I thought of when I saw this was Adventure Time. :smallbiggrin:

Looks cool. I might use this in the future. I'll tell you how it goes if I do.

Ah, Tree Trunks. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks! Yeah, I'd like to hear some playtesting. Still not sure if the LA is right.