Challenge: Gimme 3 Simple Fixes for 3.5 Monk [Archive]

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Phelix-Mu

2012-12-31, 04:56 PM

Eldan

2012-12-31, 04:59 PM

Is "full manifesting as a psychic warrior" a simple fix?

Phelix-Mu

2012-12-31, 05:08 PM

Darrin

2012-12-31, 05:15 PM

While I remain somewhat unconvinced (largely for sentimental reasons:smallwink: ), please tell me the points on which you think you could raise the monk class a bit in the standings via up to three relatively simple tweaks/rules changes.

Simple? Full BAB, Flurry as a Standard or Full Action, add Wis to attack and damage at some point.

RFLS

2012-12-31, 05:20 PM

1. Let a monk use his extra flurry attacks as part of a standard attack action.

2. (Lumping these together) Give him a d10 hitdie and full BAB.

3. Do the following things with his Wisdom modifier-

Let him use Abundant Step a number of times per day equal to his Wis modifier.
Apply his Wis modifier to all Str and Dex checks.
Apply his Wis modifier up to 1/2 his class level as an enhancement bonus to his unarmed strikes.

Honestly, though, there's a lot you could/should do to fix the class. What I've suggested would probably bring it to high t4 or t3, but it's pretty crude.

Gigas Breaker

2012-12-31, 05:45 PM

Hmm, I guess if that is all you are adding and you aren't removing anything. Interesting. Psionic flavor may not work in all campaigns, but this would dramatically improve combat potential. Would you keep the psywar power list, since some powers in that list aren't particularly easy to mesh with unarmed combat?

I think he's referring to the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona. Monastic training is the prereq and then you choose a psionic class and levels in that class stack with monk levels for unarmed damage, flurry, and AC bonus. It's a pretty cool feat.

Tokuhara

2012-12-31, 05:47 PM

Fixing Monk you ask? Why yes it IS Monkday...

To fix Monk, you need pretty (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) much (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sensei) this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) to fix it properly.

Phelix-Mu

2012-12-31, 05:54 PM

Alright, my bad for not saying that 3.5 fixes are highly preferred. Some of the PF stuff looks good/better, but might be hard to reverse engineer back to 3.5.

Also aware of the Tashalatora. It is an excellent feat, but not really a fix to monk, since it really just makes the dip more attractive; after Tash, you change your main class to the manifesting one.

Tokuhara

2012-12-31, 05:59 PM

Alright, my bad for not saying that 3.5 fixes are highly preferred. Some of the PF stuff looks good/better, but might be hard to reverse engineer back to 3.5.

I was just saying that Pathfinder's Quinngong Sensei monk is pretty much how to fix 3.5's monk. Flurry of Blows is better worded so it doesn't make players wanna rip our hair out, Wisdom to-hit and to Damage, and internally modular mid-to-late game abilities. And the ki pool? Treat it like Power Points

JaronK

2012-12-31, 06:04 PM

Three point fix (and yes, this will sound like the others):

1: Full BAB. Monks are a martial class.

2: Flurry gives you additional attacks for standard action attacks, full attack actions, and attacks of opportunity. It also continues to progress, so you get a third flurry attack eventually (let's say at 17?). Monks are supposed to be mobile, so having their main attack method not work when they move is silly.

3: Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, and Quivering Palm are now 1/encounter instead of 1/day or week. Wholeness of Body is specifically once per combat encounter, which is to say a real threat must fight you for these abilities to work. These abilities are nice, but nothing impressive... Casters can do these once per encounter without problems anyway, so why can't Monks?

That's a good start, anyway.

JaronK

Starbuck_II

2012-12-31, 06:10 PM

Alright, a challenge for all you who are experts on tiers and such. The consensus on many-a-forum is that the monk class is poorly designed, difficult to optimize, sub-optimal, fit only for a dip, what have you. While I remain somewhat unconvinced (largely for sentimental reasons:smallwink: ), please tell me the points on which you think you could raise the monk class a bit in the standings via up to three relatively simple tweaks/rules changes. Please don't refer me to unarmed swordsage, a nice alternative to be sure, but not what I'm looking for. Feel free to link me to other threads/sites with proposed changes, but not handbooks.

Thanks and good luck.

Let Monks cast as Wilders (Wis based) but only up to 6th (1/2 PP value shown so start with 1+ bonus, after they gain 6th level powers they still only go up in PP not powers). Use Wilder Power list.
They can surge like Wilders: renamed Ki Focus.
They get the benefits of Surging Euphoria as well.
Energy Ray reflavored as Hadoken!

ranagrande

2012-12-31, 06:19 PM

Gildedragon

2012-12-31, 06:47 PM

Full BAB and Wis to hit & damage are the easiest, flurry as a standard action isn't necessarily the best option.
I'd go for allowing monk bonus feats to be stances or maneuvers from ToB
Or adding the PF Quigong monk ki powers

dspeyer

2012-12-31, 06:54 PM

Swordsage, PsyWar, and Cloister Cleric for the occidental ones :-)

Seriously, though, there are two easy things and one hard thing that monk needs to be viable:

[easy] Fix the mechanics: Full BAB, faster and less penalized flurry

[easy] Make it SADder: wis to attack and damage should suffice

[hard] Give it interesting, useful, scaling abilities. Maybe cherrypick Psychometabolism, Diamond Mind and Setting Sun for flavorful abilities and make them at-will class features.

Larkas

2012-12-31, 07:19 PM

Isn't really about the monk specifically, but relates closely to it: give them bandages/brass knuckles/tattoos they can enchant like regular weapons, at regular cost. And allow them to enchant their clothes as if it were armor.

Phelix-Mu

2012-12-31, 07:37 PM

Take "Table 2-3: Voluntary Poverty" from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Make the benefits of that table class features for the Monk at the levels indicated without requiring the Vow of Poverty feat and without the special restrictions on items and wealth.

This sounds kind of crazy. Not to mention, doesn't stack well. The no-equip monk will be good, but after a certain level, all that free stuff isn't so useful, since half the benefits will be eclipsed by better equipment. Detaching it from the VoP will remove the (Su) flaw to the whole voluntary poverty thing (i.e., exalted feats are Su, so you lose the benefits in antimagic zone blah blah), which is nice. I did customize a neutral version of VoP for my game, since it doesn't make much sense that only good-aligned people can benefit from non-reliance on wealth.

Three point fix (and yes, this will sound like the others):

1: Full BAB. Monks are a martial class.

2: Flurry gives you additional attacks for standard action attacks, full attack actions, and attacks of opportunity. It also continues to progress, so you get a third flurry attack eventually (let's say at 17?). Monks are supposed to be mobile, so having their main attack method not work when they move is silly.

3: Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, and Quivering Palm are now 1/encounter instead of 1/day or week. Wholeness of Body is specifically once per combat encounter, which is to say a real threat must fight you for these abilities to work. These abilities are nice, but nothing impressive... Casters can do these once per encounter without problems anyway, so why can't Monks?

1.) I can probably be convinced of full BAB. It is pretty much strictly melee, even if it's main abilities are more geared toward all-around combat ability (high ac, fast movement, all good saves). Still, needs to be able to kill.

2.) When combined with full BAB, this sounds particularly overpowered. Granted you didn't suggest the wis-mod to attack and damage, but the high level monk would be looking at +17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2 for a full attack with flurry. Just giving pounce special ability seems more balanced than allowing flurry as a standard action or with AoO.

[easy] Fix the mechanics: Full BAB, faster and less penalized flurry

[easy] Make it SADder: wis to attack and damage should suffice

[hard] Give it interesting, useful, scaling abilities. Maybe cherrypick Psychometabolism, Diamond Mind and Setting Sun for flavorful abilities and make them at-will class features.

Alright, so here is the meat of the issue. To paraphrase JaronK, "if casters can do it, why can't monk?" It doesn't follow logically that one class should be able to do what some other class can. Granting any melee class a quasi-spellcasting ability is cool, a la the qinggong monk from PF, but I'm not sure that is "balancing" the class against the others as just admitting that we all like magic more than beating things round after round. If we stick to ToB maneuvers and such, then I guess that is fair, but why not just more bonus feats? Especially if we weigh it vs ranger, full BAB, flurry, plus some sleightly more pertinant class abilities (I like adding wis to str and dex-based checks and skill checks, High Jump, Purity of Body that isn't needlessly gimped, some form of more Abundant Step)...I dunno. Lots to consider.

Eldan

2012-12-31, 07:44 PM

I was basing my idea on the Tashalatora. But honestly, the monk's flavour already reads pretty supernatural to me.

Basic suggestion for a chassis:
Drop Abundant step, immunities, wholeness of body, Quivering palm. Add psychic warrior manifesting, change power list if necessary.

Your class can now do pretty much everything the monk could before, just better. You may need to fix Flurry of Blows, too.

ranagrande

2012-12-31, 07:58 PM

This sounds kind of crazy. Not to mention, doesn't stack well. The no-equip monk will be good, but after a certain level, all that free stuff isn't so useful, since half the benefits will be eclipsed by better equipment. Detaching it from the VoP will remove the (Su) flaw to the whole voluntary poverty thing (i.e., exalted feats are Su, so you lose the benefits in antimagic zone blah blah), which is nice. I did customize a neutral version of VoP for my game, since it doesn't make much sense that only good-aligned people can benefit from non-reliance on wealth.

You misunderstand... I mean to give monks all the benefits of VoP without restricting their access to items and equipment in any way.

Morph Bark

2012-12-31, 08:03 PM

If you're interested in slightly less simple fixes (or complex ones), there are some in the Homebrew Tier Compendium (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701). I am also currently going over Fighter Fixes, and may later on tackle Monk Fixes in similar manner.

Phelix-Mu

2012-12-31, 08:04 PM

You misunderstand... I mean to give monks all the benefits of VoP without restricting their access to items and equipment in any way.

No, I understood, but, as I said, half of the benefits of VoP are eclipsed by what you could buy, so after the point where you can afford the better items, the VoP benefit is superfluous. It's like giving a person no need to drink water, then giving them a special allowance with which to buy water (or more accurately, water+, aka beer?).

JaronK

2012-12-31, 08:42 PM

No, because what happens then is the VoP bonuses cover your stats nicely, and then your wealth covers other things (like magic items that let you fly, for example).

JaronK

dspeyer

2012-12-31, 08:48 PM

Alright, so here is the meat of the issue. To paraphrase JaronK, "if casters can do it, why can't monk?" It doesn't follow logically that one class should be able to do what some other class can. Granting any melee class a quasi-spellcasting ability is cool, a la the qinggong monk from PF, but I'm not sure that is "balancing" the class against the others as just admitting that we all like magic more than beating things round after round. If we stick to ToB maneuvers and such, then I guess that is fair, but why not just more bonus feats? Especially if we weigh it vs ranger, full BAB, flurry, plus some sleightly more pertinant class abilities (I like adding wis to str and dex-based checks and skill checks, High Jump, Purity of Body that isn't needlessly gimped, some form of more Abundant Step)...I dunno. Lots to consider.

I said interesting, useful and scaling. They don't have to resemble the lists I mentioned; those were just starting points. I like Enlightenment over Brawn.

Interesting means that when a player first plays the class, he says "how cool is that!" Numeric bonuses aren't interesting. Nor is evasion, because the rogue has had that forever.

Useful means that the ability will effect the character's success or failure. Immunity to mundane disease isn't useful, because hardly any campaigns include mundane disease.

Scaling means that the ability keeps up with the threats the monk faces. Most monk abilities do scale, but it's a common problem in mundane classes. Fighters suffer worst: since they take the best feats first, they actually get less each level, while the fraction of enemies that can ignore their earlier abilities increases.

JaronK

2012-12-31, 08:53 PM

Alright, so here is the meat of the issue. To paraphrase JaronK, "if casters can do it, why can't monk?" It doesn't follow logically that one class should be able to do what some other class can.

From a balance perspective, Monks and Casters should be able to do the same level of things... not the same things, but equivalent things. Otherwise they're not balanced. It's fine if casters cast fireball while monks hit things with their fists, but it's not fine if Monks hit things with their fists and casters raise an army of undead Monks that can do all that and more. Overall the classes should be relatively balanced in what they do.

JaronK

Treblain

2012-12-31, 09:40 PM

The Shadowmind

2012-12-31, 09:46 PM

It is more than 3.

The Monk's ac is lower than the expected level due to not being able be enchanted, making him a poor tank.
Fix- AC bonus starts at 2, and increases to 8 at a steady rate.

Monk's can't hit.
Common fix, increase to full BAB.

Low out of combat use.
Fix-Gain wildshape as the Wild Monk variant. Increase skill points to 6 per level.

Abilities do not work with each other
Fix-
For Flurry+Movement speed boost.May move up to 1/2 of your movement speed rounded down(min 5) feet as a swift action.

Purity of Body
-applies to supernatural and magical diseases as well.

Wholeness of Body
-add a Healing Lorecall like effect. Use 10 points of healing to instead remove the Dazed, Dazzled, or Fatigue Conditions. 20 Points for the exhausted, nauseated or sickened condition. Turn it to a swift action that can be performed even if you would normally not be able to take actions. Changed to 2xmonk to,(monk+wis mod)x3.

Diamond Soul
-changed to 15+monk level, and can be lowered/raised as a free action even when not on your turn.

Abundant Step
-changed to move action, 1+wis mod per day. Able to act afterward like a Blink Dog.

Is M.A.D
-May use Wisdom instead of strength for hit, and may add Wisdom in addition to Strength for damage. Monk's may add their unarmed damage to natural attacks.

Acanous

2012-12-31, 11:11 PM

Make the monk a fixed list wisdom-based spontanious caster, with an upper limit of 6th level spells. The spells should be mostly buffs, with some decent debuffs, a couple movement based, and a sprinkling of direct damage. Transmutation, Illusion, and Conjuration should be the most commonly seen schools.

Then you have a wuxia-style monk who can Mirror Image and Blur, while flying and shooting flaming spheres from his hands.

If this is Pathfinder, the monk sacrifices Flurry of Blows, Diamond Body, and the ability to pick monk styles in order to have the casting. 3.5? Just slap it on.

WinWin

2012-12-31, 11:42 PM

Dungeonomicon Monk (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dungeonomicon_(DnD_Other)/Charactonomicon#Monk)

Basically, full BAB, reduced attribute dependancy (dex or wis) and awesome rules for fighting styles, which can be mixed and matched as they are unlocked.

Fyermind

2013-01-01, 12:21 AM

The problems are: Monks can't do anything useful and cool more than once, they can't hit, and everything they have stops being useful out of combat.

1) Monk abilities that are not constant run off the Ki Pool system like a ninja and gain Ki dodge type effects from the ninja.

2) The cool fist abilities allow you to bypass armor and natural armor at a rate that scale and is based on wisdom (sort of like the AC bonus) and pounce with flurry (only). A capstone (not sure what level) allows the to spend Ki points to make a touch attack flurry.

3) Monks get meditation based abilities that cost ki points and grant them divination effects useful out of combat.

Asteron

2013-01-01, 12:58 AM

I worked out a modest "fix" to the monk, but most of the ideas I had are already listed here.

Would I be able to post it since the monk is part of the OGL?

Draz74

2013-01-01, 04:02 AM

Honestly, "manifesting as a Psychic Warrior" is enough to fix the Monk all by itself.

But I also think it's very appropriate, helpful, and flavorful to give the Monk a copy of the Factotum's "Brains Over Brawn" feature, except with Wisdom instead of Intelligence. (I.e. "You may add your Wisdom bonus to all Strength and Dexterity checks, and to all Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks.")

For my third vote, we might as well fix Flurry so that it's not horrible. Make it usable, not only on a standard action attack, but also on a charge attack or a Spring Attack attack. Basically, make it a free action 1/round, as long as the Monk has made an attack of some sort.

I guess that's three already ... but I'm going to nominate a fourth. Because Monk weapons suck and pretty much don't matter, which is a shame. To fix this, allow the Monk to use its "Unarmed Damage" column for any Monk weapon ... but make Flurry attacks only usable with unarmed strikes (and possibly shuriken).

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-01, 10:02 PM

Abilities do not work with each other
Fix-
For Flurry+Movement speed boost.May move up to 1/2 of your movement speed rounded down(min 5) feet as a swift action.

Purity of Body
-applies to supernatural and magical diseases as well.

Wholeness of Body
-add a Healing Lorecall like effect. Use 10 points of healing to instead remove the Dazed, Dazzled, or Fatigue Conditions. 20 Points for the exhausted, nauseated or sickened condition. Turn it to a swift action that can be performed even if you would normally not be able to take actions. Changed to 2xmonk to,(monk+wis mod)x3.

Diamond Soul
-changed to 15+monk level, and can be lowered/raised as a free action even when not on your turn.
[/spoiler]

Purity of Body fix is self-evident, IMHO. It's stupidly, needlessly gimped by RAW. As a rule, don't grant immunity and then caveat it out of existence. I'll probably houserule this in future campaigns that I DM.

I REALLY like the fix for flurry by allowing 1/2 movement as a swift action (very shunpo-like, great flavor). Monks actually have a lot of room for more swift actions. Also avoids some of the problems that might arise by allowing a bunch of attacks as a standard action.

The Wholeness of Body thing. Yeah, it's practically useless as written, save for emergency healing at 0 hp. I would probably go with something more like the dragon shaman Touch of Vitality class ability, but based on wisdom, self only, class level x wis-mod. points per day (though this may be too much for high level monks...20x10=200 hp of healing...I guess that is roughly comparable to using heal on yourself 1/day...not to overpowered), with all of the cool effects immediately available (I think). I'd have to compare the dragon shaman list of additional curative effects with that of healing lorecall. IMHO, this all just feeds into the supernatural resilience thing that monks have going, pretty much ripped from real world kung fu stuff.

Not sure about the raise/lower SR as free action. I'm okay with boosting it a few points, but SR from pretty much any source has the "healing-resistance" drawback. Makes a strong boost to wholeness of body more plausible if we keep it difficult to raise/lower. I might err more on the side of "raise/lower SR as a move-equivalent action." Open to some argument here. It's basically a free feat, Reactive Resistance, and by the Complete Champion ranger ACF for bonus feats, we are still 4 bonus feats behind ranger (as long as we don't add some half-caster-ishness to monk, which has also been suggested).

Zman

2013-01-02, 11:08 AM

It may be a bit more Han 3 things, but it uses the Core Monk as its base chassis.

Zman's Monk Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14423013&postcount=1). It's part of a larger project to rebalance most class towards Tiers 2-4.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-02, 12:31 PM

AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 2nd level. This bonus increases by 1 for every two monk levels thereafter (+2 at 4th, +3 at 6th, +4 at 8th, +5 at 10th, +6 at 12th, +7 at 14th, +8 at 16th, +9 at 18th, and +19 at 20th level).

I believe the max AC bonus should be +10 at 20th level. Simple typo, or so I hope. The improvement to the AC bonus is formidable, but is twice what already exists. Combined with bracers of armour, this puts an AC of 60 and touch AC of almost 50 well within reach of a 20th level monk, which seems excessive (if pretty cool...this would make monks hard to hit even with rays). Speaking from a DM's point of view, anyway, this would be problematic, since monsters that could even stand a small chance of hitting the monk would be capable of a massive power attack against many other types of character classes. That's only at 20th level, though, and hitting characters at that level is already tricky.

I like the Ascetic Athleticism, but I feel that keying off Wis-mod instead of 1/2 monk level would be better, more attractive for monk dips, more in line with the similar factotum class feature. Also, broaden the list of skills to include all Str or Dex based checks and skill checks. This is key, because it lets high dex/low str monks (like a halfling) still have a plausible build for Imp. Trip, a feat which is really not worth much if you can't make that opposed strength check.

Greater monk flurry with a bow as a standard action sounds problematic. You should go back and straighten out how this would interact with the archery feats, such as Rapid Shot/Imp. Rapid Shot. I guess Manyshot wouldn't stack as well.

I think you also misprinted the name of Ascetic Diversity in the list of bonus feats, writing "Intuitive Diversity" instead.

Am liking the adding Wis mod to Initiative. I love the racial feat for halflings that works in a similar way.

Giving the monk a free magic weapon for unarmed strikes is also cool, but problematic, as it frees up a significant amount of character wealth (amulet of mighty fists is bizarrely overpriced). I suppose other monk weapons still need to be enchanted. You did stick with the medium BAB, though, so I guess this is acceptable.

I prefer the 10/chaotic DR at 20th level, seems more appropriate to theme, and 10/- is very strong. 10/chaotic is still unusual enough to avoid the useless nature of the existing 10/magic.

All in all, an interesting rebuild.

Mato

2013-01-02, 12:48 PM

Unarmed Swordsage.

Wait, three fixes not two words. >.<

Zman

2013-01-02, 12:50 PM

Yes, that was a typo, should be +10 AC at 20th level. Max realistic AC is 10+10+6+8+8+5+5 comes up to AC52 Optimized for AC with +6 Atribute Items and +5 RoP and +5AoNA, seems reasonable to me compared to what other classes can get. Heavy Armor Shielded Fighter hits 47. Considering the lower Damage output it seems ok.

As far as most of the rest goes, giving the monk a leg up in wealth is a must considering the difficulty in getting other enhancements on his fists.

Thanks for the read and catching a few mistakes.

Edit: Yes, you can flurry wih a bow. Now, multishot and rapid shot won't stack.

Zman

2013-01-02, 12:55 PM

{Scrubbed}

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-02, 12:56 PM

Unarmed Swordsage.

Wait, three fixes not two words. >.<

Specifically interested in fixing core monk, not similarly flavored other classes. Some campaigns don't allow ToB, so revising the class or adding some easy fixes for houserules still serves a purpose.

Also, to Zman, I'm specifically interested if flurry with sling eliminates the issues with the standard slow reloading for sling, which I first became aware of from another thread on this forum. Sling is a highly underrated weapon, IMHO, and it would be cool to use monk and flurry as a springboard for a functional sling-build.

Gigas Breaker

2013-01-02, 12:57 PM

Give the monk the kensai's class features.

Full BAB.

Snap Kick and Intuitive Attack as level one bonus feats.

Zman

2013-01-02, 01:01 PM

The sling flurry build was part of my intent, and I believe that it works as listed. If others degree, I'll explicitly list it.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-02, 01:10 PM

Zman

2013-01-02, 01:13 PM

I assume "Intuitive Attack," which is listed in several fixes so far, would be revised to be non-exalted. Otherwise, the (Su) nature of the feat, not to mention the alignment restriction, is problematic. Was a mundane version of the BoED feat ever reprinted anywhere? (I'm thinking Eberron, where there were a number of feats reprinted with varying definitions.)

Ahh, another good catch. I'll need to rewrite a non exalted version as part of the class.

We probably should move discussion of my fix to its thread, unless you are looking at it to fit the bill for your needs.

Mato

2013-01-02, 01:51 PM

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I browse at work and by tab explosion, often missing something not even on the same page I'm reading. And I don't post here often, but thanks for reminding me why with your warm welcome back.

Answerer

2013-01-02, 02:09 PM

Three simple, separate fixes, each in one line:

Rename Psychic Warrior "Monk."
Rename Swordsage "Monk."
Rename Cleric "Monk."

The Shadowmind

2013-01-02, 02:11 PM

As other people said, a wisdom based Brains over Brawn could help, and would add Wisdom to initiative, and make reduce MAD further.

I would get rid of the monk weapon requirement for flurry,and just allow it for all weapons. Quick draw, rapid reload, point-blank shot, and Precise Shot being added to the monk bonus feat list. Then change so a monk can replace the normal damage die of a monk weapon with the unarmed damage amount instead, and the ki-strike abilities apply to the monk weapons.

Replace Slow-fall, replaced with:
Roll with it: The monk can take 10 on tumble checks, and the distance reduction from tumble increases at the rate slow fall does now.

For wholeness of body, your suggestion of class level x wis-mod seems at a decent amount. The spending healing points to remove conditions instead was a attempt at making a Iron Heart Surge ability that didn't cause RAW debate headaches.

I would give Reactive Resistance to anyone that has a permanent form of spell-resistance, otherwise it can be more of a weakness than a strength.

DMVerdandi

2013-01-02, 03:40 PM

1. Give them casting. Moreover, give them choices. Cast from either cleric, druid, or sorcerer spell list as a sorcerer. Ki is the power source, so they are neither arcane nor divine spells.

2.Replace flurry of blows with pounce.

3. Give them weapon aptitude. In most martial arts media I have seen, a martial artist generally has quite the improvised weapon ability. Put anything in their hands and it's deadly.

Phelix-Mu

2013-01-02, 05:38 PM

Replace Slow-fall, replaced with:
Roll with it: The monk can take 10 on tumble checks, and the distance reduction from tumble increases at the rate slow fall does now.

Interesting idea. This is definitely more pertinent than the existing Slow Fall, which is humorously not useful in most circumstances (like falling 10' from a wall). Personally, I prefer the Wall Walker ACF from Dungeonscape, which is extremely useful combined with the high movement speed of monks.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-06, 04:43 PM

Self-serving bump. Monk has been in the headlines recently, and this thread actually had some suggestions on stuff to improve it (which indirectly implies what was wrong in the first place).

Help the anti-monk anger by linking to your homebrew monk fixes, as well. I've read a couple so far, and I'll be gearing up in a week or so to fix the situation in my own houserules.

Also not 12 pages plus of stuff to sort through. Not yet anyway.

Carth

2013-02-06, 04:46 PM

Standard action flurry
Bolt on PsyWar manifesting
Bolt on entirety of soulknife, including BAB, and allowing fists to use mind blade abilities - yes, even throwing them, you can be Dhalsim!

Still probably a T3, it's basically just a Psywar with some pizzazz.

Gavinfoxx

2013-02-06, 04:47 PM

Menzath

2013-02-06, 05:14 PM

Person_Man

2013-02-06, 05:26 PM

1) Make it into a prestige class where you get all of the abilities in 10 levels. Like this:

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special |Unarmed Damage| Fast Movement
1st | + 1 | + 2 | + 2 | + 2 | Ki Strike (magic, standard action full attack), Fast Movement, AC Bonus | 1d8 | +10
2nd | + 2 | + 3 | + 3 | + 3 | Purity of Body, Slow Fall (any distance), Bonus Feat | 1d8 | +10
3rd | + 3 | + 3 | + 3 | + 3 | Evasion | 1d10 | +20
4th | + 4 | + 4 | + 4 | + 4 | Ki Strike (lawful, extra attack), Wholeness of Body | 1d10 | +20
5th | + 5 | + 4 | + 4 | + 4 | Diamond Body, Bonus Feat | 2d6 | +30
6th | + 6 | + 5 | + 5 | + 5 | Abundant Step, Improved Evasion | 2d6 | +30
7th | + 7 | + 5 | + 5 | + 5 | Ki Strike (adamantine, extra attack), Diamond Soul | 2d8 | +40
8th | + 8 | + 6 | + 6 | + 6 | Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Bonus Feat | 2d8 | +40
9th | + 9 | + 6 | + 6 | + 6 | Quivering Palm, Perfect Self | 2d10 | +50
10th | + 10 | + 7 | + 7 | + 7 | Empty Body | 2d10 | +60
[/table]
2) Scale everything up. d10 hit die, 8 Skill points per level, full BAB, light armor proficiency (and everything functions normally in light armor), Slow Fall starts as Slow Fall at any distance, Flurry (which I roll into Ki Strike in the above chart) simply grants extra attacks (without penalties) at your highest BAB whenever you make a full attack action, you can make a full attack action as a Standard Action, Improved Unarmed Strike starts at d8 damage and you can wear enchanting wrappings or gauntlets or whatever which impart magical enhancements at the normal magic weapon cost, Fast Movement stacks with other movement bonuses, Wholeness of Body gives you a healing pool equal to your Monk level * Wisdom bonus, Abundant Step is a Move Action that can be used Wis bonus times per day, Diamond Soul can be turned on or off as an Immediate Action and grants SR = Hit Dice + 10, Quivering Palm can be used Wis bonus times per day (though if a creature passes a Save, they're immune for 24 hours), Empty Body can be turned on and off as an Immediate Action.

3) Any Monk class ability can be traded out for any Monk alternate class feature, racial substitution level, or Pathfinder Archetypes, and Pathfinder Monk bonus feat options. You can mix and match between them however you like, as long as you don't trade out the same ability more then once.

Number 3 is perhaps the most important. A lot of fun and interesting things have been written in an attempt to save the Monk. Just let players Lego them together however they like.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-06, 05:28 PM

Hmm how about add Wis mod to Con for HP as well as on attack and damage rolls. Also add to any effect they make with a duration and to wholeness of body multiplier.
Pounce.
Un-gimp slow fall to be at any time and add a massive boost to all jump/balance/tumble checks.

Interesting HP suggestion. I'd go more for the DR/- that a number of suggestions offer, instead of higher HP. Damage avoid is pretty much the general monk theme, and between increasing the monk AC bonus and possible DR/-, more HP seems excessive. Over 20 levels, 20xWis Mod could be a whole lot of HP, too.

Pounce is fairly straightforward. Would be cool.

Many have suggested Brains over Brawn but with Wisdom for Str/Dex skills and Str/Dex checks. I'd also implement a scalable bonus to acrobatics checks, maybe 1/2 monk level. This rocks my world, because I go for a Int-based monk (usually Carmendine Monk, but Kung-Fu Genius is more flexible), and the usual more skills of many monk fixes with generous bonuses to a bunch of useful skills. Mmm, I do love a skills-based build. I will try factotum at some point, and love it, I'm sure.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-02-06, 05:51 PM

1) Add in a Pounce effect to be able to make a full attack and a full move. Alternately, grant Flurry bonus attacks on a standard attack.

2) Full BAB

3) Change Quivering Palm to Ki Strike (Universal), his unarmed attacks now bypass all DR. Change Abundant Step's ability to "Once per encounter, the monk's movement is considered to be a teleportation effect".

Alienist

2013-02-06, 09:30 PM

I don't have it written out or anything, but my fix is to give them casting from cleric domains, in the style of Divine Crusader but 1-20. One or two at first, but they would gain more as they level, or enter classes that grant domains to get more. Monks are religious, even the eastern, kung-fu kind D&D monks are meant to be; there isn't any reason why they can't have casting. Domain spell lists can get them Magic Fang, Fly, Enlarge Person, and other spells that answer common monk complaints, but they would just have a handful of tricks, not a full spell list.

Since it's already part of the system, it fits in seamlessly and offers new options for monks through existing material: easy entry into Sacred Fist and other caster PrCs without multiclassing, exchanging domains for devotion feats from Complete Champion, access to Turning tricks through the Fire/Earth/Air/Water domain abilities, and is still compatible as ever with ToB, psionics, and other options.

YES. This, very much this. Starting at 4th level, and getting access to the next level of spells every 2 levels. You get the ninth level spell at 20.
Instead of spell slots, you can spend Stunning Fist attempts (sorry Improved Grappling, you suck) (heck, toss Improved Grappling in as a freebie while the monk is medium sized or smaller)

As a nod to game balance, they can't use any spell which requires XP in any of it's variations. (So no Miracle, Wish, Gate, Major Creation etc)

Caster Level is Monk level -3

Although competence bonuses don't normally stack, allow the competence bonuses from Reserve feats to stack for the purpose of reducing this -3 penalty to caster level only.

At levels 8, 12, 16 if the Monk serves a deity (not a concept or pantheon) add another domain from that deity's portfolio if one is available.

At level 9, and every two levels thereafter, give the Monk a free feat which can only be spent on Reserve feats, cannot be shuffled away, and cannot be retrained except to another Reserve feat. He must still qualify for the reserve feats normally (e.g. if it requires a 5th level spell then it can't be taken before level 12)

After 4th level, the Monk may learn metamagic feats, but not feats which reduce the cost of metamagic, or those with a negative level adjustment. For the purpose of metamagic and casting times the Monk is a spontaneous caster. Lacking spell slots, the Monk must pay additional stunning fist attempts equal to the level adjustment (E.g. casting an Extended spell from his domain list would require three stunning fist attempts).

----

Design note: one of the things this instantly does is to throw some variety into the mix. Otherwise Monks end up very cookie cutter. With the above fix, two Monks serving different deities are going to play and feel quite different.

----

However, the question wasn't how to make the Monk GOOD, but how to fix it:

BAB and hit dice are not a problem if you give him the above casting (but see below)

(0) Proficiency with all simple, exotic and improvised weapons (the first is to end the arguments, the other two are a flavour thing)

(1) At level 3, the Monk can perform Move Actions as Swift Actions instead (sadly this still doesn't let us move and flurry in the same round). Additionally, his unarmored speed bonus also applies to his five foot step distance (there ya go).

(2) Still Mind - not just enchantments, any mind effecting or controlling spells or effects that duplicate spells. Additionally, add the Monk's Unarmored AC bonus to the +2 save bonus. Additionally, whenever the Monk meditates he regains one Stunning Blow attempt per hour in addition to the other benefits (if any), though this cannot take him over the normal maximum.

(3) Slow Fall - remove all references to walls.

(4) Purity of body - resistance to all diseases, including magical and supernatural ones (since they're the only ones that actually matter) - consider swapping this and the immunity to poison power, since players are more likely to run into poisons at low levels. Additionally, the Monk starts each day with Monk Level in temporary hit points.

(5) Wholeness of body - add unarmored ac bonus to the multiplier, so (2+ AC bonus) x (Monk level).

(6) Abundant Step: add Dimension Door to the list of spells known (effectively a free 4th level domain spell) (also thus allowing the monk to spend stunning fists to Abundant step). Increase number of stunning fists per day by 1.

(7) Diamond Body, as written, additionally increase the temporary hit points the Monk starts each day with to 2 x level

(8) Quivering Palm: instead of 1/week, increase the number of stunning fists by 1, and allow the monk to spend stunning fists attempts to use the quivering palm ability as originally written.

(9) Empty Body: increase the number of stunning fists by 1, and allow the monk to spend stunning fists attempts to use the Empty Body ability as originally written (e.g. one use allows Monk level rounds of Etherealness, spread out however the monk wants over the course of the day).

------

Okay, so the question of making the Monk good in combat is interesting.
Give them some more options:

Fighting defensively: when the Monk makes a Flurry of Blows attack they can fight defensively. Instead of taking a -4 to hit penalty, they sacrifice one of the strikes from the Flurry. The dodge bonus to AC is 2 (the normal bonus) + the attack bonus from the blow that was given up.

E.g. An 8th level Monk can fight defensively with a +7 bonus by giving up one of the +5 attacks from their flurry, or at +2 by giving up the +0 attack.

NB: at level 1 you can sacrifice one attack to gain a net of +0 to your AC, but only if you really want to ...

Fighting with precision: when the Monk makes a Flurry of Blows attack they can fight more accurately. They sacrifice one of the strikes from the Flurry. They gain a bonus to all other attacks in that flurry equal to half the attack bonus from the blow that was given up.

Fighting with power: when the Monk makes a Flurry of Blows attack they can fight more forcefully. The Monk Power Attacks as per the feat, but instead of taking a to hit penalty to their attack rolls, they sacrifice one of the strikes from the Flurry. The bonus to damage is the attack bonus from the blow that was given up.

Fighting with wrath: when the Monk makes a Flurry of Blows attack against an opponent of a diametrically opposed alignment, they may sacrifice a strike from the flurry to negate that creatures DR for one round.

Fighting with exploiting weakness: when the Monk makes a Flurry of Blows attack against an opponent of a diametrically opposed alignment, they may sacrifice a strike from the flurry to give that creature a penalty to all saves for one round equal to the attack bonus from the blow that was given up.

Fighting with lethality: when the Monk makes a Flurry of Blows attack against an opponent of a diametrically opposed alignment, they may sacrifice a strike from the flurry to increase their crit range for that flurry by an amount equal to their unarmored AC bonus. It also increases your automatic miss range from 1 to 1 + Unarmored AC Bonus. The increased crit range applies only to attacks you make as part of the flurry, but the increased automatic miss range applies to all attacks you make until the start of your next turn.

The Monk can use more than one of these techniques at a time, sacrificing additional attacks from the flurry.

----

For even more awesome, chose one of the following spells to add to the Monks spell list at the indicated levels:

5: true strike or protection from chaos
7: spiritual weapon or invisibility
9: lightning bolt or fly
11: fire shield or freedom of movement
13: hold monster or break enchantment
15: antimagic field or dispel magic, greater
17: mage's sword* or spell turning
19: shout, greater or mind blank

*Uses Wis instead of Int or Cha

Kuulvheysoon

2013-02-06, 10:12 PM

1- A Wisdom-based Brains over Brawn type feature

2- Change the base to a martial class (bigger HD (likely d10) and full BAB)

3- Do something about flurry - either change it to adding attacks/round or give Pounce.

4- Give manifesting as a Lurk (I like the symmetry of giving it 5 levels, like the duskblade), but with a completely redesigned list, combing through the bestmost appropriate of PsyWar, Lurk and Ardent.

ddude987

2013-02-06, 11:19 PM

1) Full BAB + larger Hit Die (d10?)
2) Partial psionic casting (like Ranger or Palidin casting)
3) Touch ups to class abilities to focus on one primary stat and make abilities relavent (ex: still mind to one save always, slow fall always instead of just near a wall)

Newoblivion

2013-02-06, 11:26 PM

I think that giving them a stance and maneuver progression should be enough. They can have a cross between the crusader and swordsage disciplines.

Also, maybe you can qualify stunning fist as turn undead to qualify for divine feats. It can be interesting.

Amphetryon

2013-02-06, 11:27 PM

Felyndiira

2013-02-06, 11:41 PM

Going for a slightly different focus:

1) Beginning at 7th level, as long as a monk has attacks of opportunities remaining, she may use them to deflect one attack that requires a touch roll using her fists and skill mastery. Whenever an opponent makes any attacks against you that requires an attack roll, you may oppose the attack by making an unarmed attack roll, treating the higher of this result and your natural AC score as your AC against the incoming attack. This may be used against touch attacks. You may not use this if you are denied your dexterity bonus to AC against the attacker.

Beginning at 11th level, a monk may use this ability to defend any allies that are standing within her reach.

2) Replacing Dimension Door, a monk may utilize a Dimensional Flurry of Blows attack a number of times a day equal to 3 + her wisdom modifier. Initializing the dimensional flurry of fists is a full action; she may make a flurry of blows and teleport up to the distance that would be granted by a dimension door ability (with a CL equal to her monk level) in the same round. She may divide the teleportation into increments to use before her first attack, between each attack, and after her last attack. In addition, the opponent is considered flat-footed against this attack.

A monk may expend a use of Dimensional Flurry of Blows to cast dimension door as normal.

3) A monk gains full BAB and d10 hit dice.

Muktidata

2013-02-07, 12:28 AM

1) Swordsage Maneuvers/Stance progression
2) Swordsage Maneuvers/Stance progression
3) Swordsage Maneuvers/Stance progression

/thread

Zman

2013-02-07, 12:34 AM

Zman's Monk Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14423013&postcount=1)

Simple fix aimed at keeping as much of he core class architecture intact.

Noctani

2013-02-07, 12:55 AM

1. Monks can use any monk weapon as an unarmed strike or the weapon, whichever is better. That's right! Throw those 2d10 shuriken.

2. At level 2 monks gain intuition. Intuition allows the user to use his wisdom modifier instead of his other modifier.
LVL 2 attack rolls
LVL 4 intelligence (skill pts)
LVL 6 damage rolls
LVL 8 special attack rolls
LVL 10 strength
LVL 12 dexterity
LVL 14 constitution
LVL 16 armor shield bonus
LVL 18 armor deflection bonus
LVL 20 untyped saves against spells

3. At level 5 a monk must decide to focus on taijutsu or kenjutsu.

Taijutsu users are treated as one size category larger than they actually are. Taijutsu users deal one additional damage per monk level in a grapple for each attack. Prestige classes giving increase unarmed damage also are treated as levels in "monk" for Taijutsu.

Kenjutsu users are proficient with all single handed martial weapons and all single handed martial weapons are treated as monk weapons which may be flurried. Kenjutsu users have learned to use their weapons as an extension of themselves. To calculate damage use the monk's unarmed strike. Use the weapon for determining the type of damage, and critical range.

If a monk is using a monk weapon: increase the weapon's critical multiplier and critical range by 1. This effect cannot be resisted by creatures immune to critical hits.
(kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)

Kasbark

2013-02-07, 03:21 AM

I use 3 simple fixes that allow the monk to be competitive with other melee classes (in Pathfinder, but they should work for 3.5 as well)

Keep in mind i have other house rules that bring full casters down a notch or 3, so they are not considered top notch in my group anymore.

Flurry of Blows is now a standard action.
Monks add their wisdom modifier to they damage when unarmed or using monk weapons.
Monk can wear armor up to leather armor without penalties.

Darius Kane

2013-02-07, 06:15 AM

Monk//Swordsage.

only1doug

2013-02-07, 08:06 AM

Anything that is possible to yank from the Monk Remix?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

That one? That's my favorite EXTENDED Monk Fix... but some of the stuff might be able to be described in a 'simple' way.

+1.

This is a good monk fix.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-07, 02:31 PM

1. Monks can use any monk weapon as an unarmed strike or the weapon, whichever is better. That's right! Throw those 2d10 shuriken.

2. At level 2 monks gain intuition. Intuition allows the user to use his wisdom modifier instead of his other modifier.
LVL 2 attack rolls
LVL 4 intelligence (skill pts)
LVL 6 damage rolls
LVL 8 special attack rolls
LVL 10 strength
LVL 12 dexterity
LVL 14 constitution
LVL 16 armor shield bonus
LVL 18 armor deflection bonus
LVL 20 untyped saves against spells

Those AC bonuses are going to be extreme. In addition to the standard +4 monk bonus, the +wisdom (with this much less MAD, expect it to be over +10).... And you've already counted wisdom score as dex score at level 12...

AC= 10 + Wis. Mod.(dexterity bonus) + 4 + Wis Mod. + Wis.Mod. shield + Wis.Mod. deflection + probably bracers of armour + amulet of natural armour=
AC of 67,

And that is a pretty easily achievable Wisdom Modifier of +10. +12 will yield a 75 AC. I guess it really rewards single-class monks.

Lans

2013-02-07, 04:26 PM

1 Bonus feats like fighter or psywarrior, with a list of monk bonus feats that prereqs are not needed for, and add anything vaguely monk related to the list.
2 Can wear light armor and keep his special abilities
3 Reduce action required for his abilities.

This should reduce mad, and give the monk something to do in combat

Person_Man

2013-02-07, 04:40 PM

For those who prefer a lower-powered game than Unarmed Swordsage/PsyWar is generally suited for (and hopefully we'll avoid arguments over whether such preferences work within 3.5 or not):

1) Full BAB.
2) Decisive Strike variant becomes standard.
3) Steal Re-purpose the CA Ninja's Ki Pool with a more martial feel.

Note that Decisive Strike is a Full Round Action (and not part of a full attack action like Flurry of Blows). So you can't get an extra attacks from a Haste effect, Two Weapon Fighting, Snap Kick, natural attacks, etc. And Decisive Strike doesn't scale above 11th level. Thus generic Flurry of Blows is sometimes mathematically superior to Decisive Strike (especially at high levels), unless you can reliably generate multiple attacks of opportunity every round.

Amphetryon

2013-02-07, 04:54 PM

Note that Decisive Strike is a Full Round Action (and not part of a full attack action like Flurry of Blows). So you can't get an extra attacks from a Haste effect, Two Weapon Fighting, Snap Kick, natural attacks, etc. And Decisive Strike doesn't scale above 11th level. Thus generic Flurry of Blows is sometimes mathematically superior to Decisive Strike (especially at high levels), unless you can reliably generate multiple attacks of opportunity every round.

Oh, I know, it's less powerful than some of the other "fixes" listed here. For a vocal minority on the various 3.5 forums, I get the impression that would be called a 'feature' rather than a 'bug,' though.

Takes all kinds, etc.

flare'90

2013-02-07, 05:04 PM

Noctani

2013-02-07, 06:09 PM

Those AC bonuses are going to be extreme. In addition to the standard +4 monk bonus, the +wisdom (with this much less MAD, expect it to be over +10).... And you've already counted wisdom score as dex score at level 12...

AC= 10 + Wis. Mod.(dexterity bonus) + 4 + Wis Mod. + Wis.Mod. shield + Wis.Mod. deflection + probably bracers of armour + amulet of natural armour=
AC of 67,

And that is a pretty easily achievable Wisdom Modifier of +10. +12 will yield a 75 AC. I guess it really rewards single-class monks.

You're right.

Perhaps this would be more acceptable?

LVL 2 attack rolls
LVL 4 intelligence (skill pts)
LVL 7 damage rolls
LVL 11 special attack rolls
LVL 14 strength
LVL 17 dexterity
LVL 20 constitution

What do you think about having the monk choose between bare fists (taijutsu) and weapons (kenjutsu)?

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-07, 06:57 PM

You're right.

Perhaps this would be more acceptable?

LVL 2 attack rolls
LVL 4 intelligence (skill pts)
LVL 7 damage rolls
LVL 11 special attack rolls
LVL 14 strength
LVL 17 dexterity
LVL 20 constitution

What do you think about having the monk choose between bare fists (taijutsu) and weapons (kenjutsu)?

Hmmm, I do like some of this. If it were me, I'd go with a limited series of monk abilities (like invocations), and make one that specifically makes one better with grappling, one that makes one's attacks count as bigger, one that gives one grappling bonuses. I think there was one guy that used a similar system, calling them "katas."

Is there an index of monk fixes somewhere? All this coolness of homebrew...I may need to do some cherry picking.

So, here is my list of things that definitely go into the package for what I am thinking of for my fix...comments welcome:

1.) Full BAB. Low level monks shouldn't be missing more than any other martial class, especially since we want flurry to be useful early on.

2.) Early on, monks gain the ability to move 1/2 their movement speed as a swift action. Depending on implementation of katas or some other common use for swift actions, this may need to be revisited to maintain a viable action economy round-to-round. This is more broadly useful than pounce, while being narrower than standard action flurry, which feels too cool, at least until later on. I may have to assess if this movement provokes AoO or if the monk can use tumble as part of the swift action.

3.) Brains Over Brawn for Wisdom. Possible scaling bonus to acrobatic skills, concentration, autohypnosis, and someone even said lucid dreaming, which is pure win for flavor.

4.) Some kind of modest increase to the monk AC bonus. It's not fabulous as-is, and I want to keep monks unarmoured, so ramping up the curve might be necessary.

5.) Fix all the stupid stuff, like slow fall, purity of body, diamond soul, still mind, wholeness of body, so they aren't situationally useful at best. Implement Tongue of the Sun and Moon at a much earlier level, move around some of the other stuff to make sense with what is useful when.

6.) There are a zillion fixes for Abundant Step, some good, some crazy, some not much better than the 1/day SLA as written. An earlier implementation of free Leap of the Clouds feat earlier on, to restore a small measure of 3.0 monk superiority.

7.) One of the seventy systems for enchanting unarmed strikes. Must do more reading on this.

neonchameleon

2013-02-07, 07:57 PM

I've put one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270754) to give it the abilities of a 4e monk on a more or less 3e power curve and structure.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-07, 08:25 PM

I've put one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270754) to give it the abilities of a 4e monk on a more or less 3e power curve and structure.

Some very nice ideas here. I particularly like the implementation of the flurry solution.

You didn't mention if the hit die changes. Hardened Body is ambiguous; you mean str instead of dex (that everyone gets) or wis (monk AC bonus)? As written, Precision Strike gives the option of removing strength dependency, while Hardened Body only gives the option of adding said dependency back on. There may be a more clear and precise way to word these powers. I like the alternate stat to Fort, but wishing it were strength or dex. Were you trying to avoid giving the character the same ability score mod to AC or att/dmg twice?

neonchameleon

2013-02-07, 09:25 PM

Some very nice ideas here. I particularly like the implementation of the flurry solution.

Thanks.

You didn't mention if the hit die changes.

I didn't think it needed to. The Monk isn't meant to be a beatdown class so d8 should be enough - the monk has the tools it needs to turn a rogue into kibble in a one on one fight. Honestly, the biggest ability protecting the monk's hit points is the free bull rush option either on the Power Fist or as an attack in the flurry - if your bull rush works then you should be able to avoid taking full round attacks against anyone without pounce. And if you aren't routinely taking full round attacks or attacks from the big guys you don't need a d10.

Hardened Body is ambiguous; you mean str instead of dex (that everyone gets) or wis (monk AC bonus)? As written, Precision Strike gives the option of removing strength dependency, while Hardened Body only gives the option of adding said dependency back on. There may be a more clear and precise way to word these powers. I like the alternate stat to Fort, but wishing it were strength or dex. Were you trying to avoid giving the character the same ability score mod to AC or att/dmg twice?

Hardened Body is designed so you can have a strong and fast monk, a strong and wise monk or a fast and wise monk. You're going to need any two of those stats so you're still a bit MAD and intentionally so. And I should probably tweak stunning fist to take strength or wisdom now I come to think about it.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-07, 10:05 PM

Thanks.

I didn't think it needed to. The Monk isn't meant to be a beatdown class so d8 should be enough - the monk has the tools it needs to turn a rogue into kibble in a one on one fight. Honestly, the biggest ability protecting the monk's hit points is the free bull rush option either on the Power Fist or as an attack in the flurry - if your bull rush works then you should be able to avoid taking full round attacks against anyone without pounce. And if you aren't routinely taking full round attacks or attacks from the big guys you don't need a d10.

Hardened Body is designed so you can have a strong and fast monk, a strong and wise monk or a fast and wise monk. You're going to need any two of those stats so you're still a bit MAD and intentionally so. And I should probably tweak stunning fist to take strength or wisdom now I come to think about it.

If it was all intentional, then well done. Your explanations are good. I'm not sure you made it quite to tier 3, though I'm certainly far from an expert. Other "tier 3" treatments have been far more expansive, adding DR, more buffs to AC, better damage progression, some add a list of invocation-like powers.

neonchameleon

2013-02-08, 09:43 AM

If it was all intentional, then well done. Your explanations are good. I'm not sure you made it quite to tier 3, though I'm certainly far from an expert. Other "tier 3" treatments have been far more expansive, adding DR, more buffs to AC, better damage progression, some add a list of invocation-like powers.

On thinking about it I missed Freedom of Movement. Level 8 looks boring (and almost dead). And casters get to cast it at level 7, so giving it to a monk as a permanent at level 8 should be about right.

I've not seriously added damage. What I've added is massive movement - the monk is meant to be the most mobile class in the game. So what they get vs spellcasters:

Level 1: +10ft and running up walls vs Expeditious Retreat.
Level 3: 20 foot leaps, wall running, and long jumping vs the ability to levitate and spider climb.
Level 5: 20 foot flying leaps (30 at L6) vs flight - OK, the caster's ahead here.
Level 7: Wind Walk vs Wind Walk and Dimension Door.
Level 8: Freedom of Movement (the wiz could cast at level 7)
Level 9: Walk through magic walls vs Passwall and Teleport. (Overland Flight hit by Wind Walk)
Level 11: Walk through any wall vs Shadow Walk
Level 13: Hmm... I need to lower the monk's Plane Shift level to 13 or 15.

But the monk is at this point pretty close to the abilities of a wizard who chooses to focus exclusively on movement. And still packs a punch - that's why I think Tier 3.

elvengunner69

2013-02-08, 01:28 PM

Full BAB and Sneak Attack! Martial Arts is a lot about pressure points and weaknesses of your opponents body. Seems like it would help

Barsoom

2013-02-08, 01:39 PM

* Starting at level 3, a Monk can turn creatures with the Chaotic subtype and rebuke creatures with the Lawful subtype the same way a Cleric turns or rebukes Undead. For the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes and special abilities, those count as Turn Undead attempts.

* Starting at level 4, a Monk gains the ability to prepare and cast a small number of Divine spells. The Monk uses the Paladin's spells-per-day progression, and the Cleric's spell list. As usual, the Monk can't cast spells with alignment descriptor opposite to his own.

* Starting at level 5, a Monk gains the ability to Smite chaotic creatures the same way a Paladin would Smite Evil, except the Monk uses his Wisdom modifier instead of his Charisma modifier. If the Monk accidentally smites a creature that's not chaotic, the Smite has no effect, but the attempt is still wasted.

flare'90

2013-02-08, 02:10 PM

This is more of a (more) Lawful version of Paladin, not something i would see a monk do.

It ties into theie alignment, but that is less fundamental to a monk than a paladin.

To clarify, a paladin could be described as a champion of an alignment, while a monk is lawful becuse it allows an internal calm. So a psionic progression is more fitting, imho.