33 Feats...?

[Grinner]

I recently thought of something. It's probably been done before, but has anyone ever made a Elven VoP Fighter 20?

Doing the math, the character would get 11 fighter feats, 7 general feats, 4 Martial Weapon Proficiencies, 10 exalted feats, and another 2 feats from Flaws. Granted you need to spend 2 feats for Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, but that's still kind of ridiculous. Add in Chaos Shuffling, and that's 31 feats to do whatever you want with.

The character wouldn't necessarily have access to spellcasting, but with 33 feats, full BAB, and a d10 hit die, surely someone could do something moderately impressive?

[Big Fau]

Two things:


Fighter 20 is a trap.
VoP is a trap.


33 feats for DCFS is expensive (each spell has an XP cost), and since you have VoP you can't buy the spells. You'd have to violate the vow or have a teammate cast the spells for you, and casting the DCFS combo that many times is going to set someone back.


Even with 33 feats, it's still an Elf Fighter.

[2gig]

Wizard with the ACF to get Fighter bonus feat progression if you want to make this a little more ridiculous.

[limejuicepowder]

Make a character with the most amount of hit points, ever. Off of the top of my head he'd want....improved toughness, for sure. Unfortunately he can't take deformity (obese) 'cause it's "evil" to be fat, so I guess that leaves 33 iterations of toughness.

10 + 19d10 + 33 x 3 + 20 + (con mod) x 20

Since increases in constitution are retroactive, that makes it easy to calculate. 16 base + 5 increases + 5 book = 26 con, mod +8

average total of 384 hit points

I know someone can do better

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are ways to get more feats with more class dips. A Cleric or Wizard can still gain a feat for every 500 xp they spend, thus having far more feats and far more choices for what to spend those feats on than any noncaster can ever hope for.



Wizard with the ACF to get Fighter bonus feat progression if you want to make this a little more ridiculous.

This Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) only gets the Fighter's bonus feat list, he still only gets a bonus feat at his 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th class levels.

[Grinner]

33 feats for DCFS is expensive (each spell has an XP cost), and since you have VoP you can't buy the spells. You'd have to violate the vow or have a teammate cast the spells for you, and casting the DCFS combo that many times is going to set someone back.

I thought about that too, did some research, and found out that the Book of Exalted Deeds is surprisingly vague on the topic of poverty and hard currency. It's total cheese and completely TO, but a VoP character could make an argument for having a fat bag of gold at his side. Enough to buy castings of the Dark Chaos spells, at least.

[Kumori]

A Cleric or Wizard can still gain a feat for every 500 xp they spend, thus having far more feats and far more choices for what to spend those feats on than any noncaster can ever hope for.

I don't think I've heard of this.... Would you please tell me how?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think I've heard of this.... Would you please tell me how?

Heroics (SC, Wizard list, available via the Spell domain): Gain a feat.
Embrace the Dark Chaos (FC1): Trade that feat for any Abyssal Heritor feat, costs 250 xp.
Shun the Dark Chaos (FC1): Trade an Abyssal Heritor feat for any feat you qualify for, costs 250 xp.
When Heroics ends, you lose the feat it granted, which you no longer have so nothing is lost. You've gained a feat permanently for 500 xp.

[Kumori]

Heroics (SC, Wizard list, available via the Spell domain): Gain a feat.
Embrace the Dark Chaos (FC1): Trade that feat for any Abyssal Heritor feat, costs 250 xp.
Shun the Dark Chaos (FC1): Trade an Abyssal Heritor feat for any feat you qualify for, costs 250 xp.
When Heroics ends, you lose the feat it granted, which you no longer have so nothing is lost. You've gained a feat permanently for 500 xp.

Oh, so this would be the "Dark Chaos Shuffle" I keep hearing mentioned but have never really looked into. Didn't realize it was that easy...

[Fyermind]

Dark chaos shuffle doesn't start with heroics normally. It just takes a feat you have (for any reason) and switches it for another.

[toapat]

Dark chaos shuffle doesn't start with heroics normally. It just takes a feat you have (for any reason) and switches it for another.

Actually, It takes a Non-actively restricted feat you have and replaces it with another.

35 Feats is interesting concept, but there are 2 problems:

11 of those feats are actively restricted. you cant actually DCFS fighter bonus feats, as they specifically require that those feats have the line: Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat. No abyssal Heritor feat has that line, and so you cant shuffle

besides, i asked this a few months ago, got upto somewhere around 52 bonus feats

[Grinner]

11 of those feats are actively restricted. you cant actually DCFS fighter bonus feats, as they specifically require that those feats have the line: Special: A fighter may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat. No abyssal Heritor feat has that line, and so you cant shuffle

Citation? I'm not finding anything like that in the PHB.

[GnomeGninjas]

Take a 2 level dip in feat variant rogue for 2 more feats.

[Slipperychicken]

1. Take first 8 levels as Factotum.

2. Font of Inspiration.

3. ???

4. PROFIT!!!

[toapat]

Citation? I'm not finding anything like that in the PHB.

Fighter:

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

Edit: Woops, found a flaw in DandD wiki, had a bit of homebrew buff in that fighter

[Amidus Drexel]

Citation? I'm not finding anything like that in the PHB.

The fighter's entry doesn't specify that line, but it does specify that all of a fighter's fighter bonus feats be, well, fighter bonus feats.


PHB, page 38
These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats

Edit: ninja'd

[Rubik]

If you really want feats, fighter 2/feat rogue 2/psychic warrior 2/erudite 1/wizard 1 gains 9 feats in 9 levels, not including armor and shield feats (in which case it gains quite a few more).

[Grinner]

Fighter:

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

Edit: Woops, found a flaw in DandD wiki, had a bit of homebrew buff in that fighter

I disagree, but I suppose it's just a matter of how you view feats.

Edit: By that, I mean to say that the feats must initially be drawn from the fighter bonus feat list, but by no means are obligated to remain as such. However, on a practical note, I don't think that the designers foresaw this scenario when they wrote that particular text.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, It takes a Non-actively restricted feat you have and replaces it with another.

We've already discussed this at length, you never addressed my final point: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261412&page=2#47)

"This Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject’s choice that it already possesses. The replaced feat need not have been an Abyssal heritor feat."
The target of the spell picks a feat he has, it does not differentiate where that feat came from, just that he has it. It even specifies that the abyssal heritor feat gained does not need to replace another abyssal heritor feat, that's a feat type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#typesOfFeats), it specifically states that it does not have to replace a feat of the same type. Feats are tagged with things like [metamagic], [item creation], [abyssal heritor], [aberrant], [general], etc., and fighter bonus feats are there too, but most of them are labeled [general]. Embrace the Dark Chaos doesn't care what type of feat you're replacing, it swaps in an [abyssal heritor] feat for a feat of any other type, including fighter bonus feats.

[toapat]

We've already discussed this at length, you never addressed my final point: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261412&page=2#47)

You are ignoring the problem.

The problem is not primarily Embrace the Dark Chaos there, It is that Fighter Bonus Feats outright say they HAVE to have the special of Fighter Bonus Feats. Where as it should be the tag of [Fighter] (which isnt in 3.5, that tag is only in PF), the special line is what matters here.

Specifically because we do not have any way to determine specifically how Specific Trumps Specific, the act of Embracing away a FBF causes the entire campaign setting to implode forever. of course, that is if you want to believe that you are correct in saying you can embrace any feat away, which Embrace specifically double checks so it doesnt do that

[Kumori]

I didn't intend to derail Grinner's thread into a rules debate, so could we maybe leave that in the other thread? It's not even necromancy if you want to continue it there...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You are ignoring the problem.

The problem is not primarily Embrace the Dark Chaos there, It is that Fighter Bonus Feats outright say they HAVE to have the special of Fighter Bonus Feats. Where as it should be the tag of [Fighter] (which isnt in 3.5, that tag is only in PF), the special line is what matters here.

Specifically because we do not have any way to determine specifically how Specific Trumps Specific, the act of Embracing away a FBF causes the entire campaign setting to implode forever. of course, that is if you want to believe that you are correct in saying you can embrace any feat away, which Embrace specifically double checks so it doesnt do that

That Fighter bonus feats must be drawn from a particular list is a general rule. Fighter bonus feats are one of the named types of feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#typesOfFeats). Embrace the Dark Chaos specifically states that the abyssal heritor feat gained may replace a feat of another type, which would include fighter bonus feats. That is where specific-trumps-general comes into play. Assuming that a given feat can only replace another feat of the same type, that would still be a general rule, and Embrace the Dark Chaos would still specifically overrule it.

[Grinner]

I didn't intend to derail Grinner's thread into a rules debate, so could we maybe leave that in the other thread? It's not even necromancy if you want to continue it there...

Don't worry about it. This sort of thing is to be expected when someone poses a hypothetical build.

[toapat]

That Fighter bonus feats must be drawn from a particular list is a general rule. Fighter bonus feats are one of the named types of feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#typesOfFeats). Embrace the Dark Chaos specifically states that the abyssal heritor feat gained may replace a feat of another type, which would include fighter bonus feats. That is where specific-trumps-general comes into play. Assuming that a given feat can only replace another feat of the same type, that would still be a general rule, and Embrace the Dark Chaos would still specifically overrule it.

Except:

Fighter Bonus Feats specifically and permantly restrict themselves.

Embrace specifically checks when floating in the recipient that the "feat slot" being targetted is legal. Fighter bonus feats are not legal targets for Abyssal heritor.

Fighter Bonus Feat is Not a Feat Tag/Feat Descriptor. it is a specific line homebrewed into that SRD for the convienience of the reader.

[ranagrande]

Cloistered Cleric 1/Erudite 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 3/Samurai 1/Swashbuckler 1/Divine Crusader 1/Sovereign Speaker 9/Contemplative 1

9th level divine casting and 49 Feats (2 from flaws, 4 for your elf, 7 regular feats, 11 from VoP, 3 from Cloistered Cleric, 3 from Erudite (two bonus feats, one of which is Psicrystal Affinity, which gives you Alertness) and one for each level after. For Divine Crusader, choose a domain that gives a feat as its granted power. For all other domains, choose more with feats as granted powers or trade the domains for Devotion feats.)

I'm sure we can still do better though...

Edit: I only used 19 levels!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Except:

Fighter Bonus Feats specifically and permantly restrict themselves.

Embrace specifically checks when floating in the recipient that the "feat slot" being targetted is legal. Fighter bonus feats are not legal targets for Abyssal heritor.

Fighter Bonus Feat is Not a Feat Tag/Feat Descriptor. it is a specific line homebrewed into that SRD for the convienience of the reader.

Nowhere does it state that feats occupy a 'slot' on your character, like an item or a rune or a gem or similar would for other games. Feats are gained instantaneously, the source of the feat determines what type of feat can be gained at the time but nowhere does it even imply that any such restriction persists after a character has the feat. Please cite your rules source that says otherwise, or stop making up rules.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Toapat, we've had this discussion before. As I recall, your argument was veritably shredded.

You failed on every level to prove your claim that fighter bonus feats are checked at any point after they're initially chosen.

Your opponents (of which I was one) showed a number of sources and citations that either disproved your position or supported the standard interpretation of the dark chaos shuffle.

Why do you insist on trying to spread this disinformation?

The dark chaos shuffle probably shouldn't work that way, but it does. Deal with it.

If you absolutely must drag up this nonsense again, the old thread isn't past the 6 week deadline for necromancy and I'd be happy to PM a mod to keep it open if it was.

[toapat]

*snip*

The only thing you proved was that someone either in editing or of the big three decided feats do not need a currency.

The arguments were specifically innane banter asto "Oh, but its completely Irrelevant to the point" despite setting very hard definition that the Fighter's Bonus Feat class feature is constantly on, and that Embrace specifically checks Both that the target Qualifies when it is first cast, and when the feat is bestowed upon the target.

Technically, Because You can not have a floating feat of any sort without a class feature that specifically allows such, the Game automatically terminates the spell. This specific internal timing instance of Embrace i did not overlook, but lampshaded in the first instance, wherein if it was assumed this was the proper presentation of the spell, then the spell would not work at all.

But, because the Spell specifically calls out 2 scans: Once, when the spell is being cast, and once when it is cast on the target, it must be assumed that the second scan, which checks that you can, in fact, perform the specific choice of actions you are doing, is performed as a final action within the spell, and that it mearly confirms that all actions taken by the spell are legal.

If one such action is to replace a Fighter's Bonus Feat, the Fighter's Bonus feat flags the Abyssal heritor as an illegal feat choice. Because the spell is the only thing during this time that is allowed to resolve, the Illegal flag is not able to be confirmed unless the second scan of the spell is specifically moved to be the final action taken by the spell, and the spell Fizzles because it defines itself as terminating.

If, and Once the spell has specifically resolved, The game Explodes because there is no feat currency in the game, and the fighter's bonus feat has just erased the Abyssal heritor Feat.

Without an Abyssal Heritor Feat, you have no feat to target with shun.

[Erik Vale]

Heroics (SC, Wizard list, available via the Spell domain): Gain a feat.
Embrace the Dark Chaos (FC1): Trade that feat for any Abyssal Heritor feat, costs 250 xp.
Shun the Dark Chaos (FC1): Trade an Abyssal Heritor feat for any feat you qualify for, costs 250 xp.
When Heroics ends, you lose the feat it granted, which you no longer have so nothing is lost. You've gained a feat permanently for 500 xp.

Oh, thats it. Suscribing it for later use when I want books thrown at me.

[toapat]

Oh, thats it. Suscribing it for later use when I want books thrown at me.

technically the Heroics method does work. its anything designated to be a lifted Fighter's Bonus Feat