High strengths and ripping off limbs? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Zaxus

2013-01-01, 04:22 AM

Hello! I'm building a character right now that's going to end up being large with a 69 strength score.

I was wondering if there were any rules anywhere for ripping limbs off by sheer strength, and not from damage. I've found threads dealing with damage or critical hits and severing limbs, and there seem to be is there are no rules other than homebrew or 2.0 for that. However, I haven't really seen anything covering using a character's strength to do the same thing.

Since my character can push/drag 5,376,000 lbs, there should be a way of popping limbs off of still living creatures, right?

If there isn't, can anyone think of something that wouldn't be too unbearably painful for my DM? I was thinking a strength check vs. the higher score between their str and/or con (representing either muscular or skeletal resistance, respectively) or the victim's fortitude, or something to that extent. Perhaps giving bonuses to the victim based on size or hit dice?

As a related note, is there anything that prohibits my character from merely taking a large, heavy object that, say, is as big or bigger than that creature's square and heavier than it can lift, and then placing it on another creature, thus instantly incapacitating it with no way to defend itself? I can't think of anything that would require me to make a roll to hit them or anything that they could really do not to be hit by it if I just gingerly put it on them, since, IIRC, creatures can't move to other squares with reflex saves or just in general when it isn't their turn.

Edit: Oh right! Forgot to mention that any kind of precedent for ripping off limbs helps. Like, an entry for a monster that does something similar buried somewhere... Just something that could give me an idea on how to do it mechanically that is already established somewhere in the rules.

Twilightwyrm

2013-01-01, 04:54 AM

There are two possibilities. First, an extended grapple check (think Beowulf vs. Grendel). Assuming you can grab, and pin your opponent, your DM can let you make some sort of check to pull the creature's limb off. This brings up a potential issue of balance however, as if you are in a position to pull off a creature's arm, why not just pull off its head instead? This is why I would recommend instead, or in combination with this, option two: a called shot. It comes from the Pathfinder site, but the rules here can be reverse engineered to work in 3.5: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/calledShots.html
This way you can grapple them, pin them, and then, assuming you can do 50 or more damage to that body part, sever it. (The grapple modified to deal this damage should carry the penalty for the associated called shot, making breaking, say, a person's arm, easier than breaking their neck)

Zaxus

2013-01-01, 05:23 AM

Thanks for the reply. I've seen the "50 points of damage to a body part and severing it" thing before when I was looking around for this. However, I feel that's more for, say, slicing off an arm with damage than just ripping it off with strength. I specifically don't want to do that. I want to pull it off.

I had already planned on having to grapple first. I was on the fence on whether to require me to pin or not in order to do this. If i decided to make pinning optional, I was also thinking about giving me my full strength score when trying to do this while pinning an opponent and only getting half my strength in a regular grapple, since I think it is more difficult to try and pull something apart while holding it up than using the ground and your weight as leverage. Plus, you'd get you use muscles in your whole body on the ground while pinning, whereas in a grapple you're using mostly your arms and shoulders and pulling in opposing directions, so it just seems that it would be generally harder.

Perhaps I would have to be grappling or pinning them, and then make an additional grapple check that if they successfully counter-grappled or escape artist they'd be able to escape. Since I'm trying to pull them and not just hold them, it kind of makes sense for them to slip out if I screw it up. Then, if they fail the grapple, there would be some kind of check with my strength vs. their... something. That something is what I'm really curious about. Perhaps their str+con+hd?

As for it being an instant death... I see this as less abusable than getting, say, an assassin's death attack that you can use on any type of creature, getting the DC above a 70, and then not needing to study an opponent for three rounds. There are plenty of instant kill moves that are readily and easily abused.

However, If we need to tone it done a bit... for what it's worth, I think you probably shouldn't even be able to rip a creature's head off without ripping both it's arms off, first. It would probably struggle too much and give way too high of a negative for that to be possible. It would be desperately resisting you not only with the inherent strength of it's upper body, but damn well near everything it had. Plus, unless you're pinning it, you could probably only get one arm off at a time. So you'd have to take around least two rounds either way to kill it like this, maybe more. Not too different from reaping mauler... but more brutally awesome (and likely to work...).

JellyPooga

2013-01-01, 05:29 AM

This is a perfect example of a called shot whilst grappling. Given that D&D doesn't really do called shots (at least, not officially), this is the kind of "kill shot description" you'd give in a grapple, i.e. whenever you reduce an opponent to -10 HP in a grapple you just say "I'm ripping his arms off".

I suppose a Death Attack (like that of the Assassin PrC) might also qualify. I mean, it's a pretty big ask to survive a good limp-ripping (severing, maybe, but ripping?), so the instant-kill clause of the Death Attack could work here.

Gavinfoxx

2013-01-01, 05:30 AM

It's easy to get someone to rip off someone's limb!

Just get them to -10 HP / Dead, and describe the final attack as ripping off a limb.

EASY!

Zaxus

2013-01-01, 05:35 AM

D&D characters tend to be immune to shock (save death from massive damage), and the only real instant death you'd get from having a limb ripped off would be from shock. There's doubtless been cases where people have had a limp ripped off from, say, a machinery accident and wandered around before collapsing from either shock or blood loss.

I don't think losing a limb necessarily equals instant death. You could say there might be a fort save, say, DC 15, the same as massive damage, but I'm not really asking for one.

I really want to use this on people who are still alive, not as a killing move.

Lonely Tylenol

2013-01-01, 05:36 AM

The "50 points of damage" rule can work very effectively for this, due to your high STR. You can pick up the Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance with a one-level dip in Warblade, Swordsage or Crusader (two if your DM is stingy about the RAW of "begins play with a first-level stance known" wording), or two feats if your build is locked in on levels, which will give you a Constrict attack that deals 2d6 + 1 1/2 your STR modifier on a successful grapple check. Now, instead of reaching for somebody, pinning them, and then tearing them limb from limb, you can grab them, and then (if you succeed on the grapple check) deal (with your STR modifier and nothing else) 2d6 + 43.5 damage. This alone is enough to pass the 50 damage threshold on average, but of course, anything you can do to increase the number helps in a big way.

This can be combined very effectively with a one-level dip in Barbarian, with which you grab the Spirit Bear Totem from Complete Champion, netting you the Improved Grab special ability. Now, you attack as normal (or with an enhanced maneuver from above), dealing your normal weapon damage (a fairly high threshold as it is), grab somebody as a free action with Improved Grab, and then tear off an arm or a leg with the Constrict attack you get as a consequence of Crushing Weight of the Mountain. All with the same action cost of a single attack.

Zaxus

2013-01-01, 05:41 AM

Lonely Tylenol

2013-01-01, 05:49 AM

Build is already set. I'm doing kind of a Hulky thing with a slash of bear with a changeling Artificier 5 / Barbarian 1 / Warhulk 10 / Fighter 3 / Bear Warrior 1, and using the Racial Emulation feat whilst altering self into a Goliath to qualify for the Mountain Rage Barbarian ACF. Feats are a lot of the knockback and knockdown things large creatures get, and they're pretty much full as well. The whole theme is to have a fairly regular strength and be smart while medium sized and a changeling, and then get incredibly strong (whilst getting correspondingly dumber) when I rage. The build itself has kinks to work out and it isn't done... but that isn't really what I need help with.

OK, I'll make this easy for you:

Drop the third level of Fighter, which grants you zero class features. Dip one level into any of the three Martial Adepts (Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage), and ask your DM if a dip that late in the game will allow you access to the Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance as your one stance (as opposed to a first-level stance). Unless you're trading out for Sneak Attack Damage, or you somehow need Skill Focus (Intimidate) for something that late in the game, you are literally trading nothing for something that helps you very much in getting to this goal. That gets you the Crushing Weight of the Mountain as described in the first paragraph, for the eye-popping cost of nothing.

You're already dipping Barbarian. Unless you are trading for Spirit Lion Totem (which is itself quite good), or you really need fast movement +10 ft. (you don't--grab continuous Boots of Run Really Fast Expeditious Retreat for 4,000gp instead), you can trade the fast movement for the Improved Grab feature of the Spirit Bear Totem, completing the other half of this strategy.

That just got your build both components for the cost of fast movement.

EDIT: Thought that post was in response to mine. In any case, that is the most hassle-free way to fit both components into the listed build. :smallbiggrin:

Zaxus

2013-01-01, 05:56 AM

Lonely Tylenol

2013-01-01, 06:03 AM

Yep.

I was, in fact, going for the lion totem, originally, but I like this better. Plus, that improved grab makes me think about swapping one of my feats out for fling enemy, again.

I honestly forget why I decided to go that 3rd level of fighter and not grab something fancy... *shrug*

I'm really happy with this. It gets the job done and gets it done well, even if not in the way I thought it would. Thanks for the help.

You're welcome. :smallbiggrin:

I actually learned a couple of useful tricks here; they won't be useful for the game I'm running, probably, but they're good to know. Actually, the called shot tricks would have been useful for all of the last two days of gaming, where the group I was DMing for invaded a town that had become completely taken over by a marauding force led by a vampire (who infected a large portion of the population). Hm... I'll have to file that away for future reference.

Zaxus

2013-01-01, 06:08 AM

My DM may hate me for playing this guy. At least he doesn't have too many improvements to survivability.

As a related note, is there anything that prohibits my character from merely taking a large, heavy object that, say, is as big or bigger than that creature's square and heavier than it can lift, and then placing it on another creature, thus instantly incapacitating it with no way to defend itself? I can't think of anything that would require me to make a roll to hit them or anything that they could really do not to be hit by it if I just gingerly put it on them, since, IIRC, creatures can't move to other squares with reflex saves or just in general when it isn't their turn.

I'm still really curious about this, though. I feel this would either work, or there's something glaringly obvious that I've overlooked.

Lonely Tylenol

2013-01-01, 06:15 AM

My DM may hate me for playing this guy. At least he doesn't have too many improvements to survivability.

I'm still really curious about this, though. I feel this would either work, or there's something glaringly obvious that I've overlooked.

The D&D MSRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Environment_and_Hazards) has this to say:

If the save fails by 10 or more, and the object is at least three size categories larger than the character, the character is pinned under the fallen object. A pinned character cannot move but is not helpless. The character can make a Strength check to lift the object off him or herself or an Escape Artist check (DC 20) to get out from underneath. The GM can modify the DCs for these checks based on the circumstances.

I mean, it's a D20 Modern rule, but applicable in this circumstance, where D&D 3.5 has no such rule (and I am unsure on Pathfinder, but will check). Basically, it falls on you to ask your DM unless I (or somebody else) can find something more conclusive.

Zaxus

2013-01-01, 06:19 AM

Hmm... This is similar really close to what I'm talking about. I'm guessing the save isn't applicable, because I'm placing it on them. I was more thinking about using the carrying capacity of my enemies as weapons against them.

If I place an item over their head that is heavier than their maximum load, and covers their whole square (or more), they should go prone (which this covers), and if it's heavier than their push/drag, they shouldn't be able to get it off, right? The escape artist makes sense. And I think the strength would be impossible if the item is heavier then they could lift.

If nothing more conclusive is found, this could totally work.

Kane0

2013-01-01, 06:28 AM

As a DM, this is the kind of wacky thing that one of my players likes to do. I'm normally pretty lenient with his antics so long as he acts in a way that I can deal with so I'd rule it something like so:

1. Establish a connection, like an unarmed attack or more likely a grapple. Some limbs may require a pin or some form of immobilization instead
2. Meet general requirements for severing the limb, eg. size category, strength, available and accessible limb, etc.
2b. If the player gets their turn during the meantime, they can attempt to escape the hold as normal.
3. The check. Most likely a Str check vs the targets Fort save, unless they have a higher Str or Con check modifier, in which case they do that.
4. In the event of a successful opposed check, the target loses said limb and takes all penalties associated.
4b. A failure would probably simply deal normal unarmed damage instead.