Will This Work?

[Karoht]

The party I'm in now has two Vampires. And they are beginning to cause some serious trouble. We're considering options to deal with them, but the violent options are still on the table for the most part.
***Thought Experiment Idea***
So one idea I had was Planeshift the two of them to the elemental plane of water. If they are fully submerged for 3 rounds, they're dead, at least as I understand it. But, I don't feel like going to the plane of water with them, lest they rip me to shreds, underwater.

So the plan is, use my Trickery Devotion to walk up and offer to Planeshift them back to our current sanctuary. They accept and are therefore willing targets. And instead the Trickery Devotion (whom I can cast spells through) shifts them to the plane of water rather than me with them.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Aside from any other considerations regarding your ability to get the vamps there, it depends on your DM's view of the plane: Is the Elemental Plane of Water considered to be "running water"?

"Running water" isn't defined in the D&D 3.x / PF / d20 rules, but it generally means a river, stream, or similar. Dictionary definitions (Websters, MacMillan) vary between rivers and streams, and piped water.

The 3.5 DMG (pg 157) says that the plane of water is "a sea without floor or a surface" - not a river or stream. However, the entry continues, saying that the oceans are "perpetually in motion, wracked by currents and tides" - is that "running water"?
Me, I'd say not - it's not a river, it's a current. Your DM may say otherwise.

[mattie_p]

Even if the plane of water isn't "running water," do they have a means to get back?

[elonin]

Just shift them to the positive energy plane.

[LanSlyde]

Just shift them to the positive energy plane.

I second shifting them to the plane of the Sun. Either that or send them to Elysium, I'm sure the Burning Hate would welcome them.

[Story]

Are you kidding? Undead love the PEP. The only real drawback to them by RAW is lowered turn resistance.

[Karoht]

Plane of the Sun might work, the only catch there is that one or both of them have some item which grants them immunity to sunlight.
Penultimate Penumbra is the spell the items are based on.

DM seems to think that the Plane of Water would be sufficient to kill them, but I'll run the whole 'running water' thing by him again just to make sure.

If not I could always teleport them to the bottom of a deep and wide river.


Someone also mentioned that if one obtains a natural swim speed, one is immune to the effects of the water. I haven't had a moment to look that up yet.

[Amnestic]

Just shift them to the positive energy plane.

I'm fairly certain that one of the quirks of the (poorly written?) rules is that planeshifting undead to Positive Energy Plane doesn't actually hurt them, despite what one might think.

[Story]

In fact, by RAW it heals them without the normal drawbacks. So they can potentially acquire infinite temp HP given enough time.

[mattie_p]

In fact, by RAW it heals them without the normal drawbacks. So they can potentially acquire infinite temp HP given enough time.

But can they get back? If not, problem solved.

[LanSlyde]

In fact, by RAW it heals them without the normal drawbacks. So they can potentially acquire infinite temp HP given enough time.

RAW yes, undead shifted to the PEP can earn infinite temp hp. However, any dm worth his chair would throw books at you if you tried citing that in a real game.

Undead don't gain hp from Positive Energy. :smallfurious:

[Story]

Technically, the healing effect of the PEP isn't positive energy. And positive energy doesn't hurt undead unless it says it does. Much more annoyingly, negative energy doesn't heal undead unless it says it does either.

[mattie_p]

And the whole fort save thing (which undead are largely immune to).

Of course, players should adhere to the rules (among other things) of character creation, the first of which is to check with their DM for any house rules or campaign standards that vary from the rules (Page 6, PHB).

[Slipperychicken]

If you don't want their loot, Shift them into the Sun. Remember, Plane Shift can bring you anywhere on any plane.

Read up on your DM's interpretation of outer-space hazards. That might let you Shift them somewhere quiet in space (3 centillion light years away from the campaign's planet?), then use Divinations to find them, buff to resist outer-space, and pick their loot up after they're dead.


EDIT: You also don't need Trickery Devotion. When casting Plane Shift, you can simply choose not to send yourself with them.


Target: Creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands
[...]
You move yourself or some other creature to another plane of existence or alternate dimension. If several willing persons link hands in a circle, as many as eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination.

[Karoht]

If you don't want their loot, Shift them into the Sun. Remember, Plane Shift can bring you anywhere on any plane.

Read up on your DM's interpretation of outer-space hazards. That might let you Shift them somewhere quiet in space (3 centillion light years away from the campaign's planet?), then use Divinations to find them, buff to resist outer-space, and pick their loot up after they're dead.Actually, loot wasn't a consideration, but this is too good an idea to pass up.



EDIT: You also don't need Trickery Devotion. When casting Plane Shift, you can simply choose not to send yourself with them.
It's partly in character, and partly just trying to play it safe. My character is a very very squishy Sorcerer. Both of these vampires have tried and failed to Dominate and Drain my character at least once. So if for some reason, they get some vibe about some trickery at play, I'd rather NOT be within arms reach of either of them if possible.


The actual plan is to go walk over to a tree and cast the Trickery Devotion, then Tree Shape myself into a tree. Transfer control into the Devo, walk up to them, offer to give them a lift home, teleport/planeshift out the 'willing' targets.
In the event it fails, I'm a tree with nondetection up. Commence backup plan from there.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

How are their will saves? Since you know what items they get sunlight protection from you could use a targeted shatter in the middle of the day.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, you have made sure the DM agrees with your interpretation of willingness, right? He might give them a save against it otherwise.

[Phelix-Mu]

I normally think of petrification when I think of killing a vampire (though technically they aren't dead until you destroy the statue). In this case, you could send them to the second layer of Acheron, Thuldanin, where eventually they will get preserved by the planar traits of that layer. They could conceivably hitchhike out of the layer, though, so that is a problem.

Which is something else to consider. Unless you disable their movement, they could conceivably find an air pocket or some other feature of the Plane of Water. Not to mention that it actually would not be too difficult to create an air pocket of some size on the Plane of Water (subjective gravity, IIRC, which means that an air bubble remains stationary when created, as there is no "surface" toward which it will rise). Any source of fire energy enough to boil water (DM's discretion, since this is some iffy territory even for the applications of chemistry) will create water vapor, a gas, which will create an air pocket. Since the MM entry for vamps mentions "immersing a vampire in running water," if the vampire is able to keep some portion of its body out of the water (in an air pocket), then it's not immersed any more.

Good luck. Killing vamps is truly a pain, and vamps with significant class levels are an even bigger problem. Thus my usual petrification concept.

[Waker]

What are the classes and levels of everyone involved in this conflict?

[Rubik]

What are the classes and levels of everyone involved in this conflict?Given the standard LA of Monster Manual I vampires, he really ought to be considerably higher level than them (and thus, they won't be much of a threat). However, if the vampirism was only recently obtained, this might still be a problem.

[Waker]

Given the standard LA of Monster Manual I vampires, he really ought to be considerably higher level than them (and thus, they won't be much of a threat). However, if the vampirism was only recently obtained, this might still be a problem.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Not to mention knowing his class and level would let me know what resources he would have at his disposal. The "we're considering" also seems to imply that someone else in the party is irked as well.

[Phelix-Mu]

Agreed that more detail about resources/class abilities available to all involved parties would be useful. Can never be too careful with plots to destroy "allies," after all. Calls for due consideration.

[mattie_p]

Unless you are a wizard, in which case fire away.

[Waker]

Unless you are a wizard, in which case fire away.

What do you do if your target is another Wizard though? What do you do then mattie_p?

[Rubik]

What do you do if your target is another Wizard though? What do you do then mattie_p?You laugh, because all their ultimate cosmic power is eaten up by template LA.

[Karoht]

Also, you have made sure the DM agrees with your interpretation of willingness, right? He might give them a save against it otherwise.I did. They might get a Sense Motive, to figure out that I'm up to something. Otherwise it's business as usual *blink* water everywhere.



What are the classes and levels of everyone involved in this conflict?I'm a level 12 Sorcerer, Sage Arcane, with Razmiran Priest Archetype.
Barbarian 13 Orc Half Fiend Vampire Werebear. Yeah, don't ask about that one.
Summoner 12. Goblin Vampire. Who I am 100% certain does not have Plane Shift or really much in the way of methods of dealing with water on his spell list. He might Evolution Surge the Eidolon into having a Swim Speed (apparently that does something) but I'm not entirely certain how it will pertain to him.

[Slipperychicken]

And as with any PvP plot, make sure you're communicating covertly with the DM, so other PCs don't get to metagame their way out of it.


If the cosmology allows, you can also dump them into the Lunia layer of Celestia (MoP 134), several thousand miles deep in the Silver Sea, an infinite sea of holy water. Shifting them that far deep is functionally the same as the Plane of Water, but they take continuous holy damage till they poof out. Then you can pop in, locate their loot with Scrying or somesuch, cast Water Breathing, and pick it up :smallbiggrin: And don't forget XP for defeating them.

EDIT: The general rule for immersion is 10x the damage dealt by one contact/splash. Like a flask of acid dealing 1d6 and immersion dealing 10d6, lava with 2d6->20d6, and so on. So immersion in Holy Water should do 20d4 per round, since the flask deals 2d4. More than enough to dust your Vampires in a few rounds.

[Karoht]

And as with any PvP plot, make sure you're communicating covertly with the DM, so other PCs don't get to metagame their way out of it.


If the cosmology allows, you can also dump them into the Lunia layer of Celestia (MoP 134), several thousand miles deep in the Silver Sea, an infinite sea of holy water. Shifting them that far deep is functionally the same as the Plane of Water, but they take continuous holy damage till they poof out. Then you can pop in, locate their loot with Scrying or somesuch, cast Water Breathing, and pick it up :smallbiggrin: And don't forget XP for defeating them.

EDIT: The general rule for immersion is 10x the damage dealt by one contact/splash. Like a flask of acid dealing 1d6 and immersion dealing 10d6, lava with 2d6->20d6, and so on. So immersion in Holy Water should do 20d4 per round, since the flask deals 2d4. More than enough to dust your Vampires in a few rounds.
If I roll high enough on the Knowledge: The Planes check, my DM said I can locate stuff such as this and port them there.
As for metagaming, I fully expect a ton of that once this goes down. If it needs to go down.

[Waker]

I'm a level 12 Sorcerer, Sage Arcane, with Razmiran Priest Archetype. Barbarian 13 Orc Half Fiend Vampire Werebear. Yeah, don't ask about that one.
Summoner 12. Goblin Vampire. Who I am 100% certain does not have Plane Shift or really much in the way of methods of dealing with water on his spell list. He might Evolution Surge the Eidolon into having a Swim Speed (apparently that does something) but I'm not entirely certain how it will pertain to him.

Yeah, that first one makes me raise an eyebrow. As for the second one, his eidolon having a swim speed doesn't affect his weakness for water, since he isn't the one with the swim speed.
Anyways, in addition to the aforementioned strategies, you might want to also destroy their coffins when the opportunity presents itself. Under the defensive abilities, it notes that a vampire reduced to 0 HP must return to it's coffin in 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. If they manage to get away in a gaseous form, they would still be doomed. It might be worth investigating if they have a spare coffin, never can be too careful.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, that first one makes me raise an eyebrow. As for the second one, his eidolon having a swim speed doesn't affect his weakness for water, since he isn't the one with the swim speed.
Anyways, in addition to the aforementioned strategies, you might want to also destroy their coffins when the opportunity presents itself. Under the defensive abilities, it notes that a vampire reduced to 0 HP must return to it's coffin in 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. If they manage to get away in a gaseous form, they would still be doomed. It might be worth investigating if they have a spare coffin, never can be too careful.

A.K.A. why every vamp should have contingent spells cast of himself/herself/itself for returning to coffin.

Isolating a 0hp vampire from the coffin, even by something as simple as distance, can also work, since the movement speed of gaseous form is quite limited.