[3.5] Druids, Elemental Wild Shape

[Laniius]

So I get "all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities." Does this include special qualities? Like, Earthglide for the Earth Elemental?

Also, am I limited to the things called "elementals" in their names, or to all things of the elemental type?

[silverwolfer]

Does earthglide fall under any of those conditions?

[Madara]

I believe it also says you get the movement modes, so yes, you do get earthglide. I'm also pretty sure its a SU ability.

[Urpriest]

Abilities is the general category, Attacks and Qualities are subcategories. So if you get all Abilities of a certain sort, you get the Attacks and the Qualities.

The question of whether you can turn into things besides the base elementals is an ambiguous one...there are quite a few things like that which seem to imply elementals in the sense of the particular type of monster, but might also refer to the type.

[Phelix-Mu]

The epic feat Improved Elemental Wild Shape (DMG 209) would not make much sense if the basic elemental wild shape ability allowed one to change into any creature with the elemental type. It seems to explicitly state that the basic ability that druids get is restricted to air, earth, fire, and water elementals.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The epic feat Improved Elemental Wild Shape (DMG 209) would not make much sense if the basic elemental wild shape ability allowed one to change into any creature with the elemental type. It seems to explicitly state that the basic ability that druids get is restricted to air, earth, fire, and water elementals.

I've said this before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258032#11):

Judging by the formatting of the Elemental Wild Shape class feature, it's intentionally 'Size Type (subtype)' just like a monster entry, rather than listing specific creatures. This means without any doubt that as long as a creature fits within the sizes listed, has the Elemental creature type, and possesses at least one of the listed subtypes, then it's a valid choice for Elemental Wild Shape.

However, Improved Elemental Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedElementalWildShape) (DMG p209) tells a different story from the Elemental Wild Shape class feature's wording. However, this is word-for-word identical to the ELH version of the same feat, which worked with the 3.0 version of Elemental Wild Shape, worded as thus:
"At 16th level, the druid may use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium-size, or Large air, earth, fire, or water elemental once per day. She gains all of the elemental's special abilities when she does so. At 18th level, she can do this three times per day."

In conclusion, 3.0 Druids were limited to only the basic MM Elementals, but the 3.5 version of Wild Shape does not share this limitation. In copy-pasting some of the epic rules into the DMG someone didn't realize that this change had taken place and mistakenly carried over a redundant feat. The Druid class feature entry is the primary source on how Elemental Wild Shape works, so Improved Elemental Wild Shape changes nothing.

[Phelix-Mu]

[nitpick]
"At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day"
It's impossible to tell if "(air, earth, fire, or water)" are meant to be subtypes or just a parenthetical clarification of "elemental". English grammar is hardly spotless in core, but subtypes were never used in any of the other wild shape material. /nitpick

Hmm, very interesting. Makes me wish I had a time machine and the address/cubicle number where I could get a hold of the WotC editing department. That is, assuming they actually did edit their material. Internal consistency is a pretty big part of anything using rules, like a game.

I guess I may have been brainwashed by the (strangely) better-written earlier version stuff, though I never had a druid high enough to get elemental wild shape in 3.0. It seems insane to allow any elemental creature though, as the abuse that can be summoned up by Improved Elemental Wild Shape is quite extreme (assuming any 3.5 source for monsters is allowed).

I'd also be interested about how you govern elemental choices, since wild shape specifies "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." Much more difficult to achieve with elementals than animals. I guess this is more or less down to role play fluff, though.

[ShriekingDrake]

For better or worse, I believe that Biffoniacus_Furiou has it right.

Just to have the language in front of us:


At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.

There is another piece of evidence on the side of "air, earth, fire, or water" meaning subtype rather than specific elemental. The language says specifically that the "druid gains all the elemental's . . . spell-like abilities." The inclusion of "spell-like abilities" would not be necessary if the wild shape were limited to only air elementals, earth elementals, fire elementals, or water elementals because none of these elementals have spell-like abilities.

On another note, Earth Glide is an extraordinary ability and thus available to the wild shaping druid.

[Phelix-Mu]

As a DM, even earth elemental wild shape is overpowered, so I really couldn't see allowing the immoth coolness/living holocaust massacre described in the other thread until epic levels. Druids are so strong even without wild shape that it really shouldn't be their strongest ability even after they get 9th level spells.

But I concede that there is no text that contradicts Biffoniacus' interpretation, and primary source is primary source. Citing copypasta for why DMG is wrong is kind of meta, RAW is RAW regardless of why it is inconsistent, unless there is some standard that I am not aware of for incorporating the 3.0 editions into the interpretation of 3.5 RAW. The point on the spell-like abilities comment is well taken, though, again, hardly conclusive.

But I guess that is all part of the tier 1 coolness of druids. Personally, I found that I didn't really use much of elemental wild shape except to earth glide with virtually total cover while my nature's child went around blasting stuff for me. Earth glide is an awesome power, and having it available more or less at will is a great boon, especially if you are focusing on summoning or otherwise trying to avoid direct contact with the enemy.

[Yaitanos]

So barring all the creatures with an elemental subtype, and keeping with actual "elementals", a druid with sufficient available HD could become say a storm elemental? Steam elemental? Or, if they exist I'm just kinda being stupid this with one, a molten gold elemental?

... Imagine getting hit by one of those. Instant gilding... To dah Face!