[PF+3.X] Incorporeality as a free action

[Darius Kane]

What are the (ab)uses for an ability that gives Incorporeality as a free action? I want to give it to a character, but I don't know if making it a free action won't be too abusable. Other than that I don't mind it being a useful and strong ability because I'm giving it to a T3 character.

inb4 unnecessary assumptions: I'm the DM and as the improved tag in the title suggests I'm using primarily PF, but with most of the 3.X materials as "supplements".

[Waker]

What are the (ab)uses for an ability that gives Incorporeality as a free action? I want to give it to a character, but I don't know if making it a free action won't be too abusable. Other than that I don't mind it being a useful and strong ability because I'm giving it to a T3 character.
Well, depending on the level that the character gains this ability they can render themselves tremendously difficult to kill, as an incorporeal creature can only be harmed by a magical weapon or attack. They can phase, at least partially, though solid objects, emit no noise, use it's charisma as a deflection bonus (which might be substantial if the character is a bard) and cannot activate traps that are triggered by weight.
In short you would make someone into an excellent scout and a potentially annoying combatant. I could try and think of ways to abuse it, but my lack of sleep isn't helping me focus. I would suggest limiting the duration to a few minutes a day and have a standard action activation.

[Darius Kane]

The game is fairly high-op. The character is 20th level. An NPC, for now.
The ability is going to be working constantly until deactivated (as a free action).


In short you would make someone into an excellent scout and a potentially annoying combatant.
That's the idea. I want to make it the most useful, but without it being too abusable.

[Artillery]

You could change it from a free action to a swift action.

Swift actions take the same amount of time as a free action, but can only be done once a round.

[Darius Kane]

I'll do that if I'll decide that free action is too abusable for my liking. But first I need to know how abusable it is. Thus, why I made this thread. Please, post any abuses that you can think of, thank you.

[andromax]

I'll do that if I'll decide that free action is too abusable for my liking. But first I need to know how abusable it is. Thus, why I made this thread.

Well a 2HD Kython (pg 178 of the BoVD) has a 10% chance of having a phase organ which lets it become incorporeal (and back to non-incorporeal) as a free action. This adds a +1 to It's CR though.

I gave this to a bunch of the higher HD versions I threw at my players one game, and it was pretty interesting. Keep in mind they would need to become corporeal to attack reliably.

Maybe let your PC harvest a phase organ off a dead Kython and graft it onto himself (or have a surgeon do it) using some other grafting rules.

[Darius Kane]

I gave this to a bunch of the higher HD versions I threw at my players one game, and it was pretty interesting. Keep in mind they would need to become corporeal to attack reliably.
How did they use it?


Maybe let your PC harvest a phase organ off a dead Kython and graft it onto himself (or have a surgeon do it) using some other grafting rules.
I think you misunderstood. I'm not asking how to give the ability to a character. I'm asking how abusable such an ability can be and what abuses are there.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, it can choose to swing at what amounts to Touch AC, so such a character may Power attack to its hearts' content, and will always hit otherwise.

It's completely immune to nonmagical attack, which makes it all but invincible to unprepared opponents. And even against prepared opponents, a 50% miss chance doubles its staying power. Immunity to Trip and Grapple invalidates a few melee builds against it. This will make it effective against noncasters, especially in a world where miss chances are not commonplace.

[Darius Kane]

http://cdn.derpiboo.ru/media/BAhbBlsHOgZmSSJQMjAxMy8wMS8wMi8wM181M18zMV82OTNfMT k5Nzc4X19VTk9QVF9fc2FmZV9waW5raWVfcGllX2FuaW1hdGVk X2ltYWdlX21hY3JvBjoGRVQ/199778__safe_pinkie-pie_animated_image-macro_moustache.gif
Can you think of any abuses of the free action activation/deactivation? That's what I'm most interested in.

[TuggyNE]

Can you think of any abuses of the free action activation/deactivation? That's what I'm most interested in.

Other than staying incorporeal between turns and shifting corporeal before attacks, then shifting back, no. (Side note: a creature cannot use Power Attack while incorporeal, due to Str 13 requirement.)

[Darius Kane]

Huh. Then I was worrying for nothing? :smallconfused: Good to hear.

[Artillery]

The actual activation/deactivation being a free action does mean that a person could become corporeal to avoid the miss chance being incorporeal, then go back to it. They will likely remain incorporeal for movement too as you have perfect flight.

The way I see it, as soon as the person has the ability to become incorporeal they will get either ghost touch on their weapon, or a Lesser Truedeath Crystal (5000GP non-enchantment Ghost touch). They will then never be corporeal unless its really needed. They get to ignore all non-magical weapon dmg, have a 50% chance of ignoring magical weapon dmg, 50% chance to ignore spell dmg from the corporeal world(besides force and ghost touch). Being ethereal without being dead is pretty useful.

Being incorporeal makes a charger brutal. They get to ignore terrain

Power Attack, Headlong Rush, Battle Jump.

They can freely use charge for massive dmg. They will be able to Power Attack freely because they do touch attacks, they will do triple dmg due to x2 dmg from Battle Jump and x2 dmg from Headlong Rush. The charger still has has 50% miss chance as well as good AC due to only losing any natural armor, and gaining atleast +1 deflection bonus from charisma modifier. They are immune to fall dmg they might have received from Battle Jump.

Being able to change from it freely doesn't seem like much of a big deal when they likely won't, unless there is an anti-magic field.

Edit: So incorporeal things cannot power attack. That reduces the issue.

[Darius Kane]

Power Attack, Headlong Rush, Battle Jump.
That doesn't work for two reasons: No Str and they can't fall which means they can't jump.

BTW. If a normally incorporeal creature becomes corporeal in some way what Str does it have? 10?

[Kelb_Panthera]

That doesn't work for two reasons: No Str and they can't fall which means they can't jump.

BTW. If a normally incorporeal creature becomes corporeal in some way what Str does it have? 10?

The free action switch makes that combo work just fine. The creature floats up above the enemy, turns corporeal which restores its strength, falls onto the enemy which triggers battle jump, mauls the crap out of the target, then returns to incorporeality to significantly limit repraisals. The only way it doesn't work is if the creature's strength when corporeal is less than 13.

If the incorporeality is the result of a template, use the strength the creature had before the template's application. If it's an incorporeal creature by default then it would gain str 10 upon becoming corporeal. If it's a normally corporeal creature with a special ability to become incorporeal then it should have a strength score included in its stats already.

[andromax]

How did they use it?


I think you misunderstood. I'm not asking how to give the ability to a character. I'm asking how abusable such an ability can be and what abuses are there.

I didn't misunderstand, was just pointing out that CR1 creatures have access to 'free action' incorporiality, for what it's worth.
The Kythons in my campaign would fly around under the ground and pop out from under neath, and out of walls and attack - the PCs werent dummies and began readying actions to attack, killing a few and drving the rest away.

But honestly though, for 20th level PCs, dealing with etherael enemies shouldnt be anymore challenging than anything else that level. So many ways to deal with it.

[TiaC]

I think the only trick of toggleable incorporeality that hasn't been mentioned is 5ft steps into the floor to gain full cover. However at 20th level this really shouldn't be a problem unless the character was too powerful to start with.

[Spuddles]

Well, it can choose to swing at what amounts to Touch AC, so such a character may Power attack to its hearts' content, and will always hit otherwise.

It's completely immune to nonmagical attack, which makes it all but invincible to unprepared opponents. And even against prepared opponents, a 50% miss chance doubles its staying power. Immunity to Trip and Grapple invalidates a few melee builds against it. This will make it effective against noncasters, especially in a world where miss chances are not commonplace.

No power attack while incorporeal since you lose your str score.

[Killer Angel]

It's completely immune to nonmagical attack, which makes it all but invincible to unprepared opponents.

While this is true, we're talking about high op. 20th lev.


No power attack while incorporeal since you lose your str score.

The free action switch, makes it doable.

[Spuddles]

The free action switch, makes it doable.

Not even a little bit. Power Attack has str 13 as a pre-req. You lose your str score while incorporeal. If you do not meet the pre-req of a feat, you cannot use it. While incorporeal, lacking a strength score, you cannot make power attacks. It doesn't really matter how fast you can lose your strength score- as long as it's gone, no power attack for you.

[Matticussama]

Not even a little bit. Power Attack has str 13 as a pre-req. You lose your str score while incorporeal. If you do not meet the pre-req of a feat, you cannot use it. While incorporeal, lacking a strength score, you cannot make power attacks. It doesn't really matter how fast you can lose your strength score- as long as it's gone, no power attack for you.

I think Killer Angel's point was that you could switch from Incorporeal to Corporeal, Power Attack (since you're now in physical form and have a strength score), then switch back to Incorporeal as a free action at the end of your attack.

[Spuddles]

I think Killer Angel's point was that you could switch from Incorporeal to Corporeal, Power Attack (since you're now in physical form and have a strength score), then switch back to Incorporeal as a free action at the end of your attack.

Sure, but that still isn't netting you power attacks vs. touch AC. That's just going to be power attacks vs. regular AC.

[Cog]

Other than staying incorporeal between turns and shifting corporeal before attacks, then shifting back, no. (Side note: a creature cannot use Power Attack while incorporeal, due to Str 13 requirement.)
UA's Overwhelming Attack Monk gets Power Attack as a bonus feat and so bypasses the Str requirement; Revenant Blade can as well. That's an edge case, though.

[Killer Angel]

Sure, but that still isn't netting you power attacks vs. touch AC. That's just going to be power attacks vs. regular AC.

Of corse, but that's another matter.
Incorporeality at will as free action, is compatible with PAttacking when you phase in corporeal form.

[Siosilvar]

Sure, but that still isn't netting you power attacks vs. touch AC. That's just going to be power attacks vs. regular AC.

Technically, Power Attack's wording might let you do it:


On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Free action: become corporeal.
Not an action: Designate Power Attack for X
Free action: become incorporeal.
Full-round: Start making attack rolls.

It depends on what "can't use a feat" means in the prerequisite section. If this interpretation is correct, you use the feat while you're corporeal, and then the attack penalty and damage bonus sticks around until your next turn and isn't part of "using the feat".

I would call shenanigans on any player or DM that did it, but I think it's possible by strict RAW.

[Darius Kane]

I would call shenanigans on any player or DM that did it, but I think it's possible by strict RAW.
As the DM I don't mind at all. Heck, I'm making this character an NPC, but there is a slight possibility that it will be played by a player. In that case I'm going to give him tips how to use the ability competently.

[TuggyNE]

As the DM I don't mind at all. Heck, I'm making this character an NPC, but there is a slight possibility that it will be played by a player. In that case I'm going to give him tips how to use the ability competently.

Touch attack power attacking is generally a very powerful ability, and getting it by a weird quirk of wording without spending spells, psionic focus, or lots of money on items seems extremely cheesy.

Other than that, though, there doesn't seem to be much that's a big problem.

[Darius Kane]

Touch attack power attacking is generally a very powerful ability, and getting it by a weird quirk of wording without spending spells, psionic focus, or lots of money on items seems extremely cheesy.
Ah, I misunderstood. No, making touch attack Power Attacks (using this ability) won't be possible in my game, regardless if it's RAW or not. But all the other things are a-okay.