Returning to spaces that do not exists

[ko_sct]

I was reading the rods on the srd and I wondered, what would happen in this situation.

1) Get 2 rods of security ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#security )
2) Someone use 1 rod A to create a non-dimensional space
3) You use rod B to create an other non-dimensional space
4) Rod A run out of time
5) Rod B run out of time

Where do you reappear ?
At the place where rod A was used since its a non-dimensional space ?
What if rod A is still active when you dismiss rod B, you appear at the place rod A was used or in the nondimensional space generated by rod A ?
What if you used it from a bag of holding portable hole (extra-dimensionnal space) that was then destroyed ? (I think in that case you end up in the astral plane)

Is there some place where all the rules for nondimensional/extradimensional spaces are ?

[Aasimar]

There are, in my view, three possible solutions, depending on the mood of the GM.

1. You appear to where you were before you activated the first rod.
2. You appear in a completely random location able to accommodate your mass, anywhere on any plane in existence chosen randomly, with no regard for things like breathable atmosphere or something to stand on or non-extreme temperature. Might as well be in outer space on the prime material or in some fissure just barely able to fit you on the elemental plane of earth or wherever.
3. You cease to exist along with the non-dimensional space, since you no longer have a viable place to be shunted to. (If I was GM, depending on the game, I might even retcon that your character was completely erased from time, never having existed at all)

So, all fun options.

[ahenobarbi]

You learn why nesting extra- and non- dimensional spaces is dangerous. The exact actual result will depend on your DM.

EDIT: The post above gives you nice summary of probable outcomes.

[Nightpenguin]

You are swallowed by a bag of devouring (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#bagofDevouring), the punishment for mucking around with the infinite planes.

[ko_sct]

3. You cease to exist along with the non-dimensional space, since you no longer have a viable place to be shunted to. (If I was GM, depending on the game, I might even retcon that your character was completely erased from time, never having existed at all)

At first I though at the possibility of making things having never existed in the first place was far too strong, but then I realized, how would you know that's what it make ? Everybody who would try it in their live will have never existed ! (wow, that's a weird sentence structure...)

Or alternatively its common knowledge among mages, ever since The Great Experiment of Archmage Bob. He wondered what would happen in this situation, but instead of trying, he sent letter to every mage/college/coven/whatever he knew. After 5 years, having received no response, he proposed that doing what I mentioned erased the being from existence, and only the less curious mages or those who were too busy remains.

The only persons who disagree with him are those who arent powerfull enough to try it, or dont have the money or guts. Everybody intending to prove him wrong having never existed.

[prufock]

From my reading, one of 2 options.

1. At point 4 you return to where you started when you activated rod A, and rod B's remaining time is wasted.
2. At point 3 you are leaving dimension A and it is therefore dispelled (since it occurs "instantly", returning you to where you were when you activated rod A for at least a moment. Rod B's activation is either wasted or you then enter dimension B.

[Nettlekid]

Alternatively, the second rod fails to activate in the first place, since usually extradimensional things are built that such that you can't nestle them. Some, like multiple Bags of Holding, just can't be put together. Doesn't work. Some, like the Bag of Holding and Portable Hole, react violently. Some things, like a Ring of Storing, just don't allow extradimensional things to be stored within. So I don't think the second extradimensional space would be made at all.

[Aasimar]

Alternatively, the second rod fails to activate in the first place, since usually extradimensional things are built that such that you can't nestle them. Some, like multiple Bags of Holding, just can't be put together. Doesn't work. Some, like the Bag of Holding and Portable Hole, react violently. Some things, like a Ring of Storing, just don't allow extradimensional things to be stored within. So I don't think the second extradimensional space would be made at all.


From my reading, one of 2 options.

1. At point 4 you return to where you started when you activated rod A, and rod B's remaining time is wasted.
2. At point 3 you are leaving dimension A and it is therefore dispelled (since it occurs "instantly", returning you to where you were when you activated rod A for at least a moment. Rod B's activation is either wasted or you then enter dimension B.


While you guys may be 'technically correct', those answers are no fun.

[Fouredged Sword]

Normally extra spaces do not stack. I would rule that on step 3 the rod does nothing.

[Stegyre]

Normally extra spaces do not stack. I would rule that on step 3 the rod does nothing.
+1

That's how it works in my universe, too. You simply cannot generate or access another extra-dimensional / non-dimensional / whatever space once you are already inside of one. You can only enter or access such spaces from "real" space.

[demigodus]

3. You cease to exist along with the non-dimensional space, since you no longer have a viable place to be shunted to. (If I was GM, depending on the game, I might even retcon that your character was completely erased from time, never having existed at all)

This is fun in a novel. In a game, well, do you character's actions have no impact or consequences? Are they just walking along the rail roads as you dazzle them with your magnificent scenery and deeply thought out DMPCs that actually run the show? Are your players just playing audience characters rather then contributors?

If you answered no to any of those questions, then the rod trick is going to rewrite a major part of your campaign. Every contribution that the now missing character made, is gone. Every contribution made because of him, is gone. Every action of the party stopped by him, happened. If your party has been adventuring for 1 year, you need to now explain to the PCs what they did in that 1 year, and how the world is different. Because the players don't know, but the PCs do. And yes, you need to tell them how their characters acted in various situations. I sure hope you have a group that likes you telling them what their actions are instead of letting them choose...

tl;dr : great for a novel, in an actual game goes entirely against the idea of players getting to choose their actions.

EDIT: Also, becomes a great plot device solver. BBEG destroyed the world? Make him never have existed! Artifact of doom unearthed and threatening all of existence? Threaten its existence! Plot Device players don't like? Nope, it/he/she never existed! DMPC? Never existed!

[Aasimar]

This is fun in a novel. In a game, well, do you character's actions have no impact or consequences? Are they just walking along the rail roads as you dazzle them with your magnificent scenery and deeply thought out DMPCs that actually run the show? Are your players just playing audience characters rather then contributors?

If you answered no to any of those questions, then the rod trick is going to rewrite a major part of your campaign. Every contribution that the now missing character made, is gone. Every contribution made because of him, is gone. Every action of the party stopped by him, happened. If your party has been adventuring for 1 year, you need to now explain to the PCs what they did in that 1 year, and how the world is different. Because the players don't know, but the PCs do. And yes, you need to tell them how their characters acted in various situations. I sure hope you have a group that likes you telling them what their actions are instead of letting them choose...

tl;dr : great for a novel, in an actual game goes entirely against the idea of players getting to choose their actions.

EDIT: Also, becomes a great plot device solver. BBEG destroyed the world? Make him never have existed! Artifact of doom unearthed and threatening all of existence? Threaten its existence! Plot Device players don't like? Nope, it/he/she never existed! DMPC? Never existed!

Which is why I said "depending on the game..."

If the player in question was sick of his character and wanted to start a new one, for example, I would treat it differently than I would if he was just messing around with no death-wish.

I'd probably have him create a new character, as I would for any character death, but retcon the new character in from when the previous one joined, in the new continuity, this new character helped the party achieve mostly the same major goals, and then I'd have the PCs help me workshop what the differences might be.

It might then be possible to restore the old character somehow, depending on how the players wanted to proceed.

I might include ghost images or hints of the old reality (through a plot device character, like Guinan did on "Yesterday's Enterprise") but in general, since whatever was erased ceased to exist, nobody would know that the rods did just that, and thus nobody would think to use it againt bbeg or my annoying DMPCs.

All this is of course hypothetical, but in the end, it all comes down to maximizing the fun at the table for everyone.

[Siosilvar]

I vote for an old-school style "lost in the Astral plane". Most of those "extradimensional" things were just bounded stuff in the Astral anyway - stabbing a Bag of Holding results in stuff getting poured out into that plane, Bag + Portable Hole = dimensional rift to the Astral, and so on.